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The eMTB doesn’t get tired.
Cobblers. If you never get tired on an eBike you're either exactly the sort of eBike rider that Real Riders piss and moan about or you're doing it wrong. The group I ride with are all pretty much blowing out of their collective arses by the end of a ride. I'm fitter now than I ever was on a normal bike, because not only am I riding more, I'm having fun doing it. I even bought a Turbo to use over the winter so I can get fitter still.
Cobblers. If you never get tired on an eBike you’re either exactly the sort of eBike rider that Real Riders piss and moan about or you’re doing it wrong.
Yeah, but do ebikers get tired if they are forced to go at the pace of non-ebikers?
Molgrips
There are already a great many people who piss about in the woods on expensive bikes and then get bored with it. There always has been, eBikes or not. They used to push up climbs, don’t you remember whining about them 20 years ago?
Starting at the end of quote.
Pushing an eBike up is different!
Someone else already pointed out batteries aren't going to get cheaper without a completely new tech. (Na ion are not dense enough really but you'd also need manufacturers to want to adopt "cheaper") same way motors are not going down much... so if/when the motor/battery goes you have a heavy brick
It is I suppose an extension of the "new standards - noone is forcing you thing" .. except really they are forcing you because you end up with proper BSO complete crap or expensive.
I've got a Carrera in the van right now I'm upgrading for a friend... and its just not worth spending anything on.
It's (was) a 3x7 with a freewheel QR/non tapered, integrated cable brakes/shifters etc. the kids brother has a model (or 2?) above (tapered steerer/cassette/Thru axle)
I had a spare Alivio 9sp so I've stuck that on... and the Mum got some take off brakes off another mate and stuck a shit 9sp freewheel... just not worth spending more as its limited whereas younger brothers has tapered headtube and thru axle so some 1/2 decent wheels can be chucked on and 1x drivechain.
Nice, I do like a solid budget build.
My DMR Trailstar didn't cost me MUCH more though its got a lot more "reused" stuff on it but realistically a way more solid build and what I ride most. (Probably more than the rest of my bikes combined)
Frame was £300 (New ex display) ... other than headset and Deore BB its all take offs or bargain discounts. I stuck some 6120 4 posts on that were £50 an end... but didn't really need to..
I started this thread a few weeks ago with a reasonably simply question - '....left me wondering if it’s just that my group is toxic, or is this anti ebike thing just in all mixed biking groups'.
I think I've had some pretty decent answers, most saying to find new mates and some saying riding in mixed groups is difficult due to the imbalance created by having people on ebikes powering ahead and non ebikes struggling to keep up. Fair point and I'll take that into real consideration. A group ride is planned and all seems amicable on the group chat for now. I've not brought it up since. I'll probably take my normal bike and just keep the ebike for when I'm not riding with that group.
Some of the real crazy comments from a select few people here tho is mind blowing! I've never been a person to judge how someone else spends their money or free time enjoying their hobby, (unless it is seriously detrimental to other people's safety) I really can't get over how opinionated some people have been.
Ebikes aren't some cyber species that are about to take over the world and rid you of your ability to ride your own bike. They're a choice. And yes, some ebikers will be dicks, just like some normal bikers.
I personally bought one because I can ride 5 or 6 descents in South Wales in a couple of hours rather than pay for an uplift somewhere or only do 2 on a normal bike. I get more riding in a shorter time and I'm only really interested in DH. I'm sure people have their own reasons why they have got one.
If someone is new to the hobby and gets an ebike first and that person would have otherwise been sat on their ass at home then all the best for them. Why are some people so against that?
The environmental impact is a worry, yes, battery production and lithium mining is nasty. Unless we are all riding bamboo bikes and living a carbon neutral existence how some people can point a finger at ebiking to say this is the devil is pretty mental too. Christ alive, how many people have multiple cars, wood burners or eat steaks every week? Perhaps we all need to state our current carbon emissions per annum before we judge others on their environmental impacts because I'm fairly certain mine will rank quite low compared to many others.
The rail erosion thing is a bit mental too. No doubt ebikes allow more riding and in muddier conditions, so trails will be eroded due to more use. Where I ride there is a real issue with MX riders smashing the trails. This is 100x more of an erosion issue than ebikes. They ride up the descents and literally ruin trails in one pass. What about heavy riders. On the descents where's the issue tho? Assistance cuts out at 15mph, so it's just me and the bike. My mate weights 115 kg and his bike might be 12kg. I weigh 80kg and my bike 25kg so I'm on an ebike but a lighter overall weight. Do we moan at big people now for ruining trails?
To me it seems like some people have this gatekeeping mentality where MTB somewhere has to be earned by a right of passage of griding up 1000s of m of hills, you have to ride a specific type of bike and you have to ride a specific way, if you don't then you're a dick! (Literally said by a poster above about someone in their own riding group)
Having an emtb will always be a choice and surely
that's just like the thousands of different MTB variations on offer today (entry, mid, high, full suspension, hard tail, carbon, mullet, AXS...) Having an emtb will always be just another option. It's not compulsory for a kid to have one from the word go, surely that's driven by budget and availability.
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Yeah, but do ebikers get tired if they are forced to go at the pace of non-ebikers?
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On a winch and plummet ride I'll usually do a few extra runs over the day, so I still get tired. On a XC ride, not so much, but they're few and far between these days.
I’ll probably take my normal bike and just keep the ebike for when I’m not riding with that group.
could have saved 17 pages 🙂
My mate weights 115 kg and his bike might be 12kg. I weigh 80kg and my bike 25kg so I’m on an ebike but a lighter overall weight. Do we moan at big people now for ruining trails?
...but now we're good for another 17!
If someone is new to the hobby and gets an ebike first and that person would have otherwise been sat on their ass at home then all the best for them. Why are some people so against that?
As I've said, the danger is that it removes a key stepping stone from kids doing jumps on BSOs to getting their first proper mountain bike and finding a group to ride with.
Not an issue right now. It will be an issue if most groups are majority ebikers. The way they are currently being pushed it looks like the big players in the industry would be quite happy if that were the case.
I would have been mid-twenties before I could have afforded my first mountain bike instead of my mid-teens if ebikes were the norm. Most likely I would never have started if an entry level bike cost £3K and I suspect many others would be in the same situation.
Not an issue right now. It will be an issue if most groups are majority ebikers. The way they are currently being pushed it looks like the big players in the industry would be quite happy if that were the case.
I would have been mid-twenties before I could have afforded my first mountain bike instead of my mid-teens if ebikes were the norm. Most likely I would never have started if an entry level bike cost £3K and I suspect many others would be in the same situation.
Why do you think that the invention of ebikes is going to mean the extinction of normal bikes? This is just choice, not some form of competition. Why would a bike manufacturer only now sell expensive ebikes and not entry and mid range normal bikes? There are loads of bikes now that cost between 6-12k but that hasnt stopped people from joining the hobby on subb 2k bikes. It's a choice. Lots of ebikes cost less than normal bikes.
MTB for adults is basically a middle class hobby. Most people are on expensive bikes with expensive kit. It's doesn't mean only expensive stuff is available. It's all a choice. You make what you want from it depending on budget.
Your argument about having this entry way into MTB by doing it as a kid on a BSO and earning your way up doesn't fit for everyone. I started at 30 on a second hand specialized pitch. Does that mean I'm not allowed to be a MTBer? Everyone is different.
doomanic
Cobblers. If you never get tired on an eBike you’re either exactly the sort of eBike rider that Real Riders piss and moan about or you’re doing it wrong.
I said the eMTB doesn't get tired... nothing about the rider.
If you never get tired on an eBike you’re either exactly the sort of eBike rider that Real Riders piss and moan about or you’re doing it wrong
How am I doing it wrong? I paid for a battery (actually 2) and motor...
Neither has the eBike got anything to do with it... I'm reasonably fit or fast so regardless of riding the eMTB or not I often do 2 group rides in a day at the pace of the slowest rider in each group and its a very mixed fitness/ability group.
I’m fitter now than I ever was on a normal bike, because not only am I riding more, I’m having fun doing it. I even bought a Turbo to use over the winter so I can get fitter still.
I don't do "fitness", I just ride bikes but out of my usual group 4 of the 6 "faster/further" riders have eMTB's but they/we were always the fastest so when we ride in the "small group" be it on eMTB or real bikes no-one is moaning. It's no different than if we ride the small group it's going to have lots of decent sized gap jumps in..
A bit of planning and some can do an e-Lap or alternate climb
I also have friends who borrow the eMTB whilst I ride a real bike .. I don't tell them "use it in eco" .. I tell them "just stick it in Boost" I don't begrudge them the fun
When people do piss and moan is when one of the group we all used to wait for and nurse up and down beasts the slower riders up the climbs then sets off before they have chance to rest.
Why do you think that the invention of ebikes is going to mean the extinction of normal bikes?
I've laid out exactly why I think this is a risk going forward earlier in the thread (several times, actually). Just have a look at the previous page.
Your argument about having this entry way into MTB by doing it as a kid on a BSO and earning your way up doesn’t fit for everyone. I started at 30 on a second hand specialized pitch. Does that mean I’m not allowed to be a MTBer? Everyone is different.
It's nothing to do with earning. It's to do with how people (specifically kids who don't necessarily have rich parents) find their way to the sport.
Do you want it to end up being a sport that is only available to people who have a decent income or should it be something that has an on-ramp for the majority of the population?
What you're saying, if I ignore the pedantry at the start, is that one of your group is on an eBike and breaking Rule One so all eBikers must break Rule One. Have a word with them and if they don't change their behaviour suggest they find others with a similar mindset to ride with.
How many hours have some people put into this thread?!
It's absolutely pointless arguing with randoms on the internet. Nobody ever changes their mind; opinions just become hardened and arguments more extreme.
Maybe time to close the thread now so that a few can go and get some rest.
Peter1979
I started this thread a few weeks ago with a reasonably simply question – ‘….left me wondering if it’s just that my group is toxic, or is this anti ebike thing just in all mixed biking groups’.
I think I’ve had some pretty decent answers, most saying to find new mates and some saying riding in mixed groups is difficult due to the imbalance created by having people on ebikes powering ahead and non ebikes struggling to keep up. Fair point and I’ll take that into real consideration. A group ride is planned and all seems amicable on the group chat for now. I’ve not brought it up since. I’ll probably take my normal bike and just keep the ebike for when I’m not riding with that group.
And yes, some ebikers will be dicks, just like some normal bikers.
So the thing is eMTB is new... you/we are all to some extent tarred with the same brush. (No different to roady's / MTB or cyclists vs "the world"... A few dicks easily tars everyone and there are some unpleasant undercurrents and pure BS being spread.
1) Soon everyone will have one...
Why do you think that the invention of ebikes is going to mean the extinction of normal bikes?
Because that's what many/some eMTBers keep saying.... I have an eMTB and don't believe it but its still irritating dicks keep saying "you'd have one of you could afford it" or "once you try one"
2) you get fitter or a better workout/it's not cheating/mixed rides
To take a cycling truism "pick any 2...." - sure you could put the eMTB in the lowest setting but why?
left me wondering if it’s just that my group is toxic
Cast all else aside ... do they expect you to not have fun with them? Or is it not you but a wider thing you're just getting the fallout from?
There is a lot of mileage in being a bit humble "I'll bring my cheat bike cos I'm not it shape and I won't enjoy it otherwise".. if they mind that they are toxic.
All the kids are riding e-scooters anyway.
Can't somebody please spare a thought for the poor old push along?
😉
Maybe time to close the thread now so that a few can go and get some rest.
Yeah, close a thread that people are contributing to, just because it doesn't interest you.
Just don't open it
doomanic
What you’re saying, if I ignore the pedantry at the start, is that one of your group is on an eBike and breaking Rule One so all eBikers must break Rule One.
Differentiating between a electric motor getting tired and a rider isn't pedantry...
Have a word with them and if they don’t change their behaviour suggest they find others with a similar mindset to ride with.
All that's going to do is exclude his son .. who's not like that and embarrassed enough as it is.
Pushing an eBike up is different!
It more pulls you than you pushing it, thanks to the nifty 'walk' feature most have.
Here's a thought.
Ride with an ebike and force yourself to ride harder on those ups, when the motor driven rider outpaces the non motorized rider. Think of it like a pace car/bike/etc. You get that harder more effort ride you're wanting 😀
The point of this story is that if mountain biking becomes primarily e-mountain biking, there is no route into the sport for 16 year old BruceWee. By the time I would have had the money to afford an entry level e-mountain bike I would have been in my mid-twenties. That’s almost 10 years of mountain biking firmly routing itself as part of my identity, not to mention the fact it’s far easier to learn the skills and learn to bounce when your in your mid-teens.
Even if your kit isn’t quite as good as others in the group, the important factor is your fitness. Kit makes a tiny difference in terms of percentages. With ebikes, the difference becomes the kit. No matter how fit you get, you are simply never going to be able to keep up if the majority are on ebikes.
(etc)
I don't want to get bogged down in defining what is and isn't a sport, I've seen that discussion on STW before and it wasn't pretty. Maybe the misunderstanding was mine, but "the sport" conjured up something quite different from what you've just described. You say tomato, I say tomato, it's not really relevant when there hasn't been any tomatoes in shops for the last week.
I take your point but I think ultimately we're going to have to disagree. I think your perception of the "danger" is a somewhat implausible worst-case scenario, you've used a lot of words to say "if" when the reality is that neither you nor I have a crystal ball. You've described your route into the hobby (for that's what it is, really) but if you asked ten other riders how they started I expect you'd hear ten different stories.
If e-bikes were the norm when you were in the teens, your Orange would still have existed. Perhaps it'd have been considerably cheaper as it'd be considered lower-end. There is no doubt in my mind that bike manufacturers are going to want to cater to, well, to anyone who will give them money and that includes the budget market. I bought a serviceable bike from Decathlon maybe ten years ago, it was sub-£300 (probably closer to £200?) and there were plenty of cheaper options in store.
Mass-market demand will drive down costs. Of course it will. The more that e-bikes become popular, the more people will want affordable products and if there's one thing bike companies like it's selling bikes. We're all familiar with the trickle-down approach on bikes, last year's must-have is this years standard and next year's meh. Technology improves over time, it gets easier, cheaper and smaller. Remember early mobile phones? Ni-Cad batteries? I've got a computer magazine here from 1982, the centre spread is an advert for a "lugabble" PC which it weighs just 24 pounds and cost £1,250 (plus VAT). That's pushing five grand in today's money. It's a wonder how I got into that sport at all, isn't it.
Who knows what would have happened if that group of yours all had e-bikes. I don't, and you don't either. Maybe you'd have found a different group (this hypothetical future of yours still contains the Internet, right?); maybe they'd have taken you under their wing anyway; maybe you'd have carried on riding on your own; maybe [whispers] you'd have been on an e-bike too.
I would have been mid-twenties before I could have afforded my first mountain bike instead of my mid-teens if ebikes were the norm.
Assuming pricing levels are identical to how they are today, and assuming that you had to buy brand new. I heard someone once got a nice bike down the local pub for £20... 😁
Yeah, I could be completely wrong.
And even if I'm completely right, there's nothing any of us are going to be able to do about it anyway.
So yeah, cheery thought to finish on 🙂
Joking aside, even if everything you say does prove to be prescient, the second-hand market solves all your concerns at a stroke doesn't it? Bikes depreciate near-vertically, why couldn't Mirror Universe Bruce just get a bike in last year's colours?
Differentiating between a electric motor getting tired and a rider isn’t pedantry…
You're comparing a mechanical device to a biological entity to (fail) to prove your point? 🤣🤣🤣 With that you completely invalidate any other points you're trying to make. You're either trolling or madder than a box of frogs.
Bikes depreciate near-vertically, why couldn’t Mirror Universe Bruce just get a bike in last year’s colours?
I guess my big worry would be the warranty. The battery and motor are probably the most delicate, most difficult to fix, and most expensive items on the bike.
Let's just say I don't have as much faith in warranties as I used to. And I didn't have that much to begin with.
It used to be that the frame was the most expensive part. I actually flared the head tube on my Orange after about 5 years. A trip to a friendly local shop that was sympathetic to impoverished bike abusers meant that £100 and a loan of their tools later I was back on the trails again with a slightly knocked around Coyote Dual that they were planning on sending back due to damage in transit.
@BruceWee I share those concerns, I like to keep my bikes for a while, so feeling like I need to shift an eeb before it becomes a bit of a turkey isn't something I want to do.
Also I do worry about planned obsolescence as they grow in popularity, with the lack of standardisation around things like battery connections then that makes it an even more expensive proposition to keep beyond warranty duration.
It's not about hate or hate of e-bikes. It may be that some of the group have had experiences riding with folk on ebikes, getting cut up, surprised etc. Also many view it as cheating, not sporting or a bit like Lance taking drugs. And like with the rest of the world there are a lot of people that are rude, inconsiderte etc. and some of them ride bikes. Some of them ride ordinary bikes too.
Just explain to them that you 'feel x, y, z and are feeling a bit bullied because you have an ebike and promise not be behave like a tosser on rides and that you'd appreciate it if they could rein in the banter as it is making you want to leave they group which you don't really want to do, because for the most part they are a good bunch of lads and you appreciate their friendship.'
dyna-ti
It more pulls you than you pushing it, thanks to the nifty ‘walk’ feature most have.
Non of that works when the motor is dead... hence the point I was making of why buying used ebikes isn't the same as real bikes for someone who can't afford new.
Sorry if it was a bit of an obtuse segue but what I was getting it is you buy a used bike (even a high end) and if/when something breaks you can find a used/cheap replacement - it might not be the same spec but you can stop it being a brick and ride. eBike the motor and battery are definitively going to break..
BruceWee sums that up perfectly...
Cougar ...
the second-hand market
Everything Brucewee said except to add no mainstream eBike motor/battery has 2nd user warranty even if the frame does.
doomanic
You’re comparing a mechanical device to a biological entity to (fail) to prove your point?
Erm yep because although it's perhaps obvious if you ride eMTB's it's less so if like Cougar you don't.
On a mixed ride someone on an eMTB riding on eco or off is also preserving battery (deliberately or not) so they also know come later in the ride if they are hanging they can always up the assistance whereas the leg powered rider only knows they are going to get more and more tired.
God knows why I’m joining in on this sh*t show, but anyway…
Everything Brucewee said except to add no mainstream eBike motor/battery has 2nd user warranty even if the frame does.
You were called out about this ‘mistruth’ before. Trek have a transferable warranty on their bikes, as do Specialized on both their Brose & Mahle equipped bikes.
As to the original post, our riding group rip each other mercilessly whether we are riding an ebike, or a poverty bike on any particular day. If it’s more bitter than banter, it says more about them, than your choice of bike 🙂
Cougar
I take your point but I think ultimately we’re going to have to disagree. I think your perception of the “danger” is a somewhat implausible worst-case scenario, you’ve used a lot of words to say “if” when the reality is that neither you nor I have a crystal ball.
Based off "wheel size", "boost", "metric shocks" etc. it seems a safe bet that the stuff between Halfords and eBikes will become harder/rarer etc.
You can still buy a Chris King/Hope QR hub and lace it to a 26 rim ... OR you can get a pretty horrible 26 wheel. (Or Halo still do some for £££)
Stuff in the middle is a lot harder to find.
If e-bikes were the norm when you were in the teens, your Orange would still have existed. Perhaps it’d have been considerably cheaper as it’d be considered lower-end. There is no doubt in my mind that bike manufacturers are going to want to cater to, well, to anyone who will give them money and that includes the budget market. I bought a serviceable bike from Decathlon maybe ten years ago, it was sub-£300 (probably closer to £200?) and there were plenty of cheaper options in store.
Summing the rest up... its increasingly difficult to buy an (economically) upgradable MTB. something with a cheap cost of entry and incremental upgrades into something more trailworthy.
That's not blaming eMTB's... I'm just trying to point out the "why are you worried you'll still be able to buy" doesn't really pan out.
Live example .. (I'll finish upgrading this when the 9sp quick link arrives)
https://www.halfords.com/bikes/mountain-bikes/carrera-hustle-1-mens-mountain-bike---grey%2Fgreen---s-m-frames-477150.html
£300 - 27.5 100/135 QR/non tapered/freewheel, 3x7 with integrated brakes/shifters.
Fundamentally nothing wrong with the geo... there is just no obvious way to upgrade it incrementally and put decent forks/wheels on.
Fundamentally nothing wrong with the geo… there is just no obvious way to upgrade it incrementally and put decent forks/wheels on.
You could always add an aftermarket motor kit? That should do it.
And just like that the world vaporised in an e-powered fireball.
I guess my big worry would be the warranty. The battery and motor are probably the most delicate, most difficult to fix, and most expensive items on the bike.
To be fair that's a very valid point. Warranty aside, battery life it would be my primary concern with e-bikes generally. I've replaced many, many batteries in various devices over the years (I once removed a swollen UPS battery by "persuading" it out with a big hammer, that was fun and really really stupid) - they're a consumable however you slice it.
I assume that at this point in e-bike evolution there's nothing approaching standards yet? So once the battery goes you're humped if the manufacturer no longer makes that particular model of part?
its increasingly difficult to buy an (economically) upgradable MTB.
Is that genuinely the case? Can't say as it's something I've done much of beyond regular maintenance.
Bikes were invented, then motorbikes were invented and later still cars. But pushbikes are still around. People even still go on walks. So I think we'll be ok.
I assume that at this point in e-bike evolution there’s nothing approaching standards yet? So once the battery goes you’re humped if the manufacturer no longer makes that particular model of part?
You got it. Brands source batteries from whatever manufacturer suits them and the housings are custom made to fit into - usually - the downtube of a particular model of bike. I opened up a Specialized Levo battery to dry it out, inside it's basically a shed-load of individual lithium ion cells, the standard 18650 ones I think, connected together, plus a circuit board.
A replacement battery for a 2017 Turbo Levo retails for a cool £730, or at least it did last year. Fortunately once I'd poured the water out and dried it out next to a dehumidifier, it came back to life. I suspect that in the longer term, you'll get small businesses capable of refurbishing some battery packs by fitting new cells / fixing circuit boards, but basically no, batteries are very much not standardised.
You can already get motors repaired once they're out of warranty, see my earlier post somewhere in the depths of this thread.
The environmental impact is a worry, yes, battery production and lithium mining is nasty. Unless we are all riding bamboo bikes and living a carbon neutral existence how some people can point a finger at ebiking to say this is the devil is pretty mental too. Christ alive, how many people have multiple cars, wood burners or eat steaks every week? Perhaps we all need to state our current carbon emissions per annum before we judge others on their environmental impacts because I’m fairly certain mine will rank quite low compared to many others.
Not mental in the slightest. You mention bamboo bikes as a, I’m assuming, sarcastic point. Thing is you can’t get away from the fact that any eBike involves the exact same manufacturing processes as any normal bike. Only then it adds extra nastiness in the form of batteries and a motor. Ergo, much worse than a normal bike. Not the devil as you say as that’s just hyperbole. It is a huge backwards step in environmental terms.
Btw we have one car and trying to use as little as possible, don’t eat steak (or any red meat) and no wood burner. Carbon footprint for a family of four was 8.6 tonnes last time I did it. Still shit but my crappy old badly insulated house makes up the majority of it and I don’t earn enough to have the required works done.
A replacement battery for a 2017 Turbo Levo retails for a cool £730, or at least it did last year.
Shit the bed!
I suspect that in the longer term, you’ll get small businesses capable of refurbishing some battery packs by fitting new cells / fixing circuit boards, but basically no, batteries are very much not standardised.
It's plausible. A mate of mine home-converted a bike to an e-bike, it's powered by cells recovered from failed laptop batteries. Seems it's quite common for a battery to die due to one cell failing with the rest being fine, we toss out a lot of good cells. There's a cottage industry to be had there for sure, if you can get inside the bastard things non-destructively.
Shit the bed!
I've been considering a range extender (£600, was £450 before the world had a meltdown) for my '19 Kenevo, but then thought should I just get an extra battery for when my current one craps out
£840
I bought the bike knowing it would need money along the way, but how long will that particular battery be available for?
You were called out about this ‘mistruth’ before. Trek have a transferable warranty on their bikes, as do Specialized on both their Brose & Mahle equipped bikes.
Which part of “motor and battery” are you missing ? You seem to be reading want you want it to say .. not what the warranty says
Yes the frame is transferable but it’s of no use without a motor
To take your first ..
Subsequent Ownership
Subsequent owners (second or later) are entitled to a 3-year warranty from the date of purchase from the retailer on the Trek frame and Trek fork. This does not include items such as wheels, suspension forks, drive train components etc. Proof of original purchase is required.
https://www.trekbikes.com/gb/en_GB/warranty_policy/
Which part of “motor and battery” are you missing ? You seem to be reading want you want it to say .. not what the warranty says
Yes the frame is transferable but it’s of no use without a motor
Have you tried to warranty a Trek ebike that is less than 2 years old for a motor or battery issue?
Because I have.
I note you have also declined to comment on Specialized’s transferable warranty…
Cougar
It’s plausible. A mate of mine home-converted a bike to an e-bike, it’s powered by cells recovered from failed laptop batteries. Seems it’s quite common for a battery to die due to one cell failing with the rest being fine, we toss out a lot of good cells. There’s a cottage industry to be had there for sure, if you can get inside the bastard things non-destructively
It’s not simply physical protection but anti tamper software as well on the “brand name motors” and the battery needs to handshake with the motor controller
I was looking into this before getting a used battery as I can’t read battery health from the display or official user app.. and using a 3rd party app to read has been reported to invalidate warranty on the motor**
https://www.electricbikebatteryrepairs.co.uk/e-bike-battery-types-we-cannot-re-cell/
Currently we are unable to take e-bike battery types from Kalkhoff, Yamaha, Transx/Raleigh,GTech,Bosch,Shimano,Haibike,Derby,Kalkhoff or Powabyke batteries.
I note you have also declined to comment on Specialized’s transferable warranty…
I’m not playing at you make something up and I have to fo find it
Post the warranty in full
Have you tried to warranty a Trek ebike that is less than 2 years old for a motor or battery issue?
Because I have.
One minute you’re talking transferable now you’re saying in warranty ?
Do you sell used cars for a living or just work in a job where misleading is paid for like marketing ??
Subsequent Owners (second or later) are covered by a <b>two year warranty</b> from date of original retail purchase by original purchaser.
Unfortunately I had a typo, I meant a second hand Trek ebike warranty claim. Which I have done.
However you are still avoiding the point regarding Specialized also.
As for casting aspersions about what I do for a living. Nice.
Rough one to take from the tin foil hat man 🙂
You can already get motors repaired once they’re out of warranty, see my earlier post somewhere in the depths of this thread.
There's plenty that there seems to be no support at all for outside of warranty. Shimano, and Giant badged Yamaha motors for example. For most of the others there's aftermarket support for bearings and seals, but not for circuit boards.
😆
That is 100% true. I likened riding my non eeb to riding through wet sand.
Cougar
Is that genuinely the case? Can’t say as it’s something I’ve done much of beyond regular maintenance.
yep have a virtual window shop for a mid range 100mm or 135mm qr wheel or 100mm QR fork etc
10 yrs ago for example most bikes regardless of price had 26 wheels and QR and you could more or less upgrade a lower end bike to the higher spec incrementally .. now you can t really buy a major branded fork or wheels that isn’t boost thru axle
(Niche expensive brands excepted)
I think this thread highlights well the issues between ebike riders and non ebike riders so not really surprising they also don't always get on well when riding.
I am just going to go the whole hog and get a fully electric MX bike which will be powered using the energy of bike riders hatred.
Just to highlight what a complete and utter hypocrite I am, I am currently on the look out for a bolt-on mid-drive motor with a torque sensor for my old Santa Cruz Nomad.
It just looks really fun.
I think Bafang is one of the main suppliers there Bruce, priced between 700-800. But where add on kits used to be hub only far more development seems to be going in to bb mounted. Probably just a case of google and see whats available, then research that/those.
I think Bafang is one of the main suppliers there Bruce, priced between 700-800
Oh yeah, done that. The problem is Bafang doesn't have a torque sensor in their bolt on offerings.
Thinking about this:
It's the reason I won't even test an eMTB, I'll know what I'm missing.
Thankfully my eBike is a heavy steel gravel bike affair that's so utterly void in pleasure I'd rather carry a normal bike than ride that.
Are ebikes for real Mountainbikers?
hobnob
As for casting aspersions about what I do for a living. Nice.
Rough one to take from the tin foil hat man 🙂
Sorry, I didn't really mean to be so personal but I'm just sick of people pedalling lies about eMTB's to the unwary.
Some have obvious motivation... like they are trying to sell their eMTB before it dies outside warranty.. others are being compensated one way or another.
For many people a broken and not repairable eMTB will be devastating... something they saved for and can't afford to replace.
I meant a second hand Trek ebike warranty claim. Which I have done.
Trek clearly state the motor not their issue x2 in their warranty (3rd party warranty/not original owner)... so that comes under lucky not something to be relied upon.
Subsequent Ownership
Subsequent owners (second or later) are entitled to a 3-year warranty from the date of purchase from the retailer on the Trek frame and Trek fork. This does not include items such as wheels, suspension forks, drive train components etc. Proof of original purchase is required.
tin foil hat man
I'm a believer in "fool me once shame on me"...
I can't even find the Bosch eMotor warranty.. but what I can see is Bosch are absolutely liars
I found this page whilst looking for the warranty... its full of deliberate lies so hardly the sort of company I'm going to trust. https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/service/ebike-tuning
BruceWee
Just to highlight what a complete and utter hypocrite I am, I am currently on the look out for a bolt-on mid-drive motor with a torque sensor for my old Santa Cruz Nomad.
It just looks really fun.
It's an amazing amount of fun and much more. Some days I ride the eMTB and I'd probably not have ridden however I'd make a list of pro's and con's to each way or not.
An obvious pro to converting non destructively is you can always take it off if it breaks and you can't afford to fix it.
A negative is you can't decide if your riding an eMTB on a day by day basis if its the only bike.
My own riding group most (not all) eMTB owners also have a non-E and I personally eride my non-E more than my E wheras others ride the e more often.
I rode the eMTB yesterday as I met 3 others who were on eMTB... wheras last week 4 of us went to BPW and I rode the non-E (as one of us didn't have one) and I was at Twisted Sunday and rode a non-E and Friday I rode my non-E and loaned the E to a friend... I also ride the EMTB quite often when I go out by myself...
You probably want to work out as best you can where you'd be.
I’m just sick of people pedalling lies
Peddling
Pedalling is what us folk without eMTBs have to do more of.
Peddling
Pedalling is what us folk without eMTBs have to do more of.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Joke
Mister-P
😉
Regarding replacement batteries, a kind person on EMTB forums has created a guide for recelling Shimano batteries.
https://www.emtbforums.com/threads/re-build-ande-re-cell-of-shimano-batteries.32031/
Going to give it a try myself as one of my batteries has lost around 25% capacity in 20 months. Could try and warranty it but it's difficult to prove the lost capacity. Shimano have removed battery wear from their app.
Going to give it a try myself as one of my batteries has lost around 25% capacity in 20 months. Could try and warranty it but it’s difficult to prove the lost capacity. Shimano have removed battery wear from their app.
It's still in the Pro version the dealers have.
You can also download the PC version and if you can find someone to loan/rent you the connector you can print the report.
Plenty of reports of people using 3rd party apps to read battery health being told that invalidates their warranty so stay away from that.
Could try and warranty it but it’s difficult to prove the lost capacity. Shimano have removed battery wear from their app.
You can also download the PC version and if you can find someone to loan/rent you the connector you can print the report.
Lol 🙂
This is the sort of crap you have to put up with at dodgy car dealers.
chevychase
This is the sort of crap you have to put up with at dodgy car dealers.
Sadly (or Apple)... the Shimano battery warranty has a health/cycles part but the user can't see it.. and the dealer can only see the health part using Shimano software (or 3rd party software that invalidates warranty).
To compare that to Apple I know if my phone battery is showing 80% health (however they determine that) then it lasts <50% of the time (or thereabouts) and you need to get them to tell you if your battery qualifies for a warranty replacement.
My battery is terrible now. Sometimes I do a quick lunchtime spin on Turbo and after 40mins / 9 miles my battery is at 30%.
SHimano also changed the warranty, they originally guaranteed 80% after 500 cycles but thats' been removed, and now it only says 60% after 1000 cycles, which may as well be no warranty at all as no-one is going to use a battery that many times, or get that range loss, inside 2 year warranty period.
HoratioHufnagel
SHimano also changed the warranty, they originally guaranteed 80% after 500 cycles but thats’ been removed, and now it only says 60% after 1000 cycles, which may as well be no warranty at all as no-one is going to use a battery that many times, or get that range loss, inside 2 year warranty period.
I missed that ... I'm not disagreeing but where did you find that? I can't even find any official specific e-warranty stuff ? The whole charge cycles/health thing was something I saw I the ads and not on the real paper for the motor/battery.
As someone who may end up on an ebike in the next 10 years this talk of declining or failing battery power is quite off putting.
What do all you ebikers do after a few years and the battery is on its backside and out of warranty? Repair or replace? How? Are any types better to live with post warranty?
You can buy batteries easily enough for most of the big names these days... They're not cheap at £300-700 a pop... but you can get them.
One of our group has a 2020 giant that came with 500w battery, giant have recently released an 800w battery that is backwards compatible that he has fitted to his bike. It is bigger than all their current as supplied bike batteries. So I am assuming they will keep the same battery tech and connections for a while.
You can buy batteries easily enough for most of the big names these days… They’re not cheap at £300-700 a pop… but you can get them.
Eventually, I was on pre-order for a 2 months for the Bosch. (I pre-ordered a couple the fastest was 19/5 to 13/7)
Some cancelled etc.
Blackflag
As someone who may end up on an ebike in the next 10 years this talk of declining or failing battery power is quite off putting.
What do all you ebikers do after a few years and the battery is on its backside and out of warranty? Repair or replace? How? Are any types better to live with post warranty?
I'm sure they all have pro's and cons... but you say "in the next 10 years" and that's a bit like comparing a 1997 mobile with a 2007 with a 2017. At the moment its demand >> supply..
You need to think of it as a system ... it's all coded together and riddled with anti-tamper software so its a case of what fails irreparably first and what the motor manufacturer will sell.
Plenty of people are getting through 4-5 motors in 2yrs .. and each motor seems to have specific built in end of life and parts they refuse to sell.
e.g. Bosch fail irreparably when water gets into the main board / shimano a torque sensor etc.
Like mobile phones this is changing though... people are starting to reverse engineer the parts..
e.g. https://www.ebikemotorcentre.com/
The Ebike Motor Centre has teamed up with a local high-tech electronics company who had a team of engineers working with over 200 printed circuit boards, supplied by us, for over 3 weeks solid! Solving these software and hardware issues.
We can currently boast a 90% success rate of repairing all code 500 errors. This means it is no longer necessary to buy a new motor when it can be repaired. For the 10% that sadly can’t be repaired, we can usually offer a service exchange motor to keep you going.
Note: That's only for old Gen 2 motors. Presumably Bosch will step up and start more anti-tamper on newer motors to prevent repairs but it's a start, other manufacturers are copying bolt patterns so you can retro fit one of their motors.
The fundamental problem with used units (other than lack of spares) is they are designed to be non-maintainable and essentially just make it through the warranty (and preventative maintenance voids warranty**) so technically the best motor to buy outside warranty is one that has been maintained because the owner didn't care about warranty or one where the motor has just been replaced under warranty. That's not as weird as it sounds.. they may have wanted the US 20mph speed for example.
**I think Yamaha may allow you to put some extra grease in
My advice.. spend 2-3 mo before you buy. Check the repairers and what they can and can't do then... join groups for the motors and see what's failing.. Ignore people who are selling a used eBike telling you it's fine or you can just buy a new x,y,z...
I missed that … I’m not disagreeing but where did you find that? I can’t even find any official specific e-warranty stuff ? The whole charge cycles/health thing was something I saw I the ads and not on the real paper for the motor/battery.
It's usually mentioned on descriptions for the battery. e.g.
https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/component/mtb-ebike-e8000/BT-E8035.html
Cyclelife span for charge (times) 1,000 (more than 60%)
Someone on EMTB forums captured the old description for Shimano batteries which is no longer on their website
Plenty of people are getting through 4-5 motors in 2yrs .. and each motor seems to have specific built in end of life and parts they refuse to sell.
That's the killer right there
Everything in the world we buy might break, i lost a bolt out of my Slayer early on... but that doesn't mean i'll lose another. But with Ebikes it's like you're sitting there waiting for it to break, rather than a slight possibility that it may break. It means you can't really buy a used one and if you buy new, you're likely to be without it for a certain amount of time more than once in the next 2 years.
HoratioHufnagel
Ah so not my crap google-foo....
I'd put money the "description" at the time of purchase is somewhat enforceable.
You might need to pay then do small claims or something but be useful to know when stuff changed.
But with Ebikes it’s like you’re sitting there waiting for it to break, rather than a slight possibility that it may break. It means you can’t really buy a used one
To be fair, when the motor on my loaned 2017 Turbo Levo went into graunchy death mode, the ebike motor repair guys repaired and upgraded the motor - better seals, bearings, belt and beefier sprag bearing - for around £230. That's not ideal for sure and a lot more expensive than a new bottom bracket, but it should now be both more robust and far better sealed than it was before and hopefully will last a lot longer. I suspect as more ebikes fail outside warranty, more options for repair will spring up. I actually think the battery is more of a worry. They're £730 new from Spesh. Without the motor and battery you have 16.5kg rolling chassis that you can't do anything with short of stripping it for parts.
Weeksy
That’s the killer right there
Everything in the world we buy might break, i lost a bolt out of my Slayer early on… but that doesn’t mean i’ll lose another. But with Ebikes it’s like you’re sitting there waiting for it to break, rather than a slight possibility that it may break. It means you can’t really buy a used one and if you buy new, you’re likely to be without it for a certain amount of time more than once in the next 2 years.
Yep but it's IMHO worse. If you really really couldn't get a bolt or even chainstay of the slayer you could buy another used frame (not RM) and fit everything to it (shock based on size).
If your motor goes... you need the same or very close motors or complete system changed.
e.g. EP8 is different wiring etc. to E7000/E8000 and the common consensus response to "can I upgrade" seems to be by the time you buy all the parts you can (and assuming you can actually buy) it's going to cost you more than just buying a new bike - I've not personally tried but people who know more than me say this.
But with Ebikes it’s like you’re sitting there waiting for it to break, rather than a slight possibility that it may break.
Twisted as it is ??? but given I have a shimano motor I'm hoping it's going to break at a convenient time (near end of warranty and when stock is in) not limp through 2yrs (which isn't even 2 yrs because it's date of purchase not delivery)
I wouldn't buy another ebike with a Shimano motor after reading this
https://www.emtbforums.com/ams/shimano-error-e299-ep801-ep600-anti-tamper-motor-lockout.39/
BadlyWiredDog
better seals, bearings, belt and beefier sprag bearing – for around £230. That’s not ideal for sure and a lot more expensive than a new bottom bracket, but it should now be both more robust and far better sealed than it was before and hopefully will last a lot longer.
It's a shame you can't do this and maintain warranty! Imagine it was suspension where you had a 2yr warranty but not allowed to service.
I suspect as more ebikes fail outside warranty, more options for repair will spring up.
Until something disruptive happens it's just a cold war ... people like www.ebikemotorcentre.com will reverse engineer a fix/board and the motor manufacturers will counter with new anti-tamper.
I wouldn’t buy another ebike with a Shimano motor after reading this
https://www.emtbforums.com/ams/shimano-error-e299-ep801-ep600-anti-tamper-motor-lockout.39//blockquote >I think when shimano refer to anti tamper lockout they mean bypassing the speed restriction, which is just the same approach as bosch have been taking for a few years now.
Its not really a surprise that shimano are making it harder to bypass the speed limiter (given how seriously some european countries take it) than it is at present - it is ridiculously easy right now. The surprise is it took them this long - some people buy a shimano motor'd bike purely because its so easy to derestrict.
I wouldn’t buy another ebike with a Shimano motor after reading this
Spend 10m mins on this FB group 😉 people on 4/5 motor etc.
Except I don't think Shimano are THAT much worse than the others.
Try this as another horses mouth scaremongering (I found this actually looking for the warranty information)
https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/service/ebike-tuningblockquote >Tuning isn't just some trivial offence
Tuning is breaking the law, there's no doubt about it!
Not true -
The technical manipulation of eBikes, such as increasing the shutdown speed to over 25 km/h, creates continuous loads that were not accounted for in the design and for which even the robust, high-performance components of Bosch eBike Systems are not designed.
So either its an inferior system fitted in Europe or ... not true again as Bosch in the USA etc. are 20mph...
Tuning at sporting events is prohibited and is simply unfair.
Whilst I agree with the sentiment of the latter ... the former is untrue and hold on who brought out the "Race" motor ??
The software of the Bosch eBike systems can detect whether the pedelec has been tuned by means of a sensor while riding.
It can't as I've had this and 100% certain it wasn't tuned. (See also the post you linked from)
— Peter Collard 2018 — ( https://www.ebikemotorcentre.com/) - no affiliation here it just sums up the state of play
You should never be be told that something is not repairable. Once you have paid for that thing, it should become your thing to do with as you wish! The knowledge and tools should be provided to repair that thing should the need ever arise.
It isn’t sound ecologic practice to insist that you buy another thing, just because your first thing has stopped working!”
I think when shimano refer to anti tamper lockout they mean bypassing the speed restriction, which is just the same approach as bosch have been taking for a few years now.
Its not really a surprise that shimano are making it harder to bypass the speed limiter (given how seriously some european countries take it) than it is at present – it is ridiculously easy right now. The surprise is it took them this long – some people buy a shimano motor’d bike purely because its so easy to derestrict.
This is off topic, but I do love the way that legislation is brought in and enforced simply to stop ebikes going over 25 km/h. It's an enforcement issue. If it's not a big enough issue to dedicate resources to policing it then it's not a big enough issue.
I just find it ironic that cars are sold with the ability to break any speed limit, often multiple times over, and the only speed restriction* is a solemn promise by the driver not to.
Is this anti-tamper stuff actually being pushed by legislators or is it being used as an excuse by manufacturers. It seems to me it would be fairly easy to argue against given the only limitations on cars is an agreement by the driver not to use the loud pedal.
*OK, not the only one. If I remember correctly, cars are limited to a maximum of 240 km/h in some countries.