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I do wish people would actually address the points I’m raising
Help us out here; how do we do that and what are your aims? eBikes are here to stay, they aren’t going away and the dicks on jet skis you’re worried about are far more likely to be on Surons and the like than eMTBs because they are faster and cheaper.
If it’s people on eMTBs riding off piste that are the problem then education is one of the answers.
Help us out here; how do we do that and what are your aims? eBikes are here to stay, they aren’t going away and the dicks on jet skis you’re worried about are far more likely to be on Surons and the like than eMTBs because they are faster and cheaper.
Just read what I wrote in the post directly above yours (or any of the other multiple posts where I've made the exact same points). I literally can't spell out my concerns more clearly than that.
I don't care if poor people can't afford an ebike to piss around in the woods. Should I?
I'm sure they can buy a legacy bike to piss around in the wood on.
Oh and it's a hobby, not a sport.
But what can we do about that? You seem to be blaming eBikers for something they have no control over.
‘The sport’ is whatever you make of it.I would put mountaineering, rock climbing, bouldering into the ‘sport’ of climbing. Likewise, I would put XC, trail riding, downhill, and whatever else into the ‘sport’ of mountain biking.
So, eBiking then. It fits all those categories.
From there, mountain biking becomes a sport with such a high intitial cost it is no longer a sport that is accessible to the majority of the population (despite the boutique prices many like to pay, the majority of the population couldget into mountain biking if they wanted to).
The economics don’t add there; the market for MTBs is colossal in comparison to the market for eMTBs. There’s no way the big players are going to ignore that sector unless they can massively reduce the cost of eBikes to fill the void.
We cannot debate “additional damage and access conflict” from a position of righteousness without first considering the word “additional” right there.
We absolutely can. Everything we do causes some damage. It's clearly much better to just ride to your local woods rather than load a bike onto a Hummer (or a e-tron) and drive there. Even that would be better than taking a flight to the Alps. We each have a view on an acceptable level of damage. Ebikes clearly do more than a normal bike.
The economics don’t add there; the market for MTBs is colossal in comparison to the market for eMTBs. There’s no way the big players are going to ignore that sector unless they can massively reduce the cost of eBikes to fill the void.
Is it? What are the numbers today? What do the big companies expect the numbers to be in 5 years time based on the current trajectories?
What are the profit margins on an ebike compared to regular bikes?
I genuinely don't know. I'm just reading between the lines of what jameso and Brant said.
I have no doubt that it would be more profitable for bike companies to focus on ebikes from now on. At least in the short term. The problem comes in 20 years time when current mountain bikers die or stop riding and there is no younger generation to replace them.
How many companies prioritise their 20 year profits over their 5 year profits these days?
The economics don’t add there; the market for MTBs is colossal in comparison to the market for eMTBs. There’s no way the big players are going to ignore that sector unless they can massively reduce the cost of eBikes to fill the void.
The vast majority of bikes are cheap commuter or shopping bikes. The profit on those will be tiny. Then you have your lower-end mountain bikes or road bikes. These will be the majority of bikes sold to people who cycle for sport. The profit on one of those is probably the same as 10 cheap bikes. Then you have your halo bikes, running XTR level gear. The profit on those is probably 10 times an entry level mountain bike, 100 times a cheap shopping bike, but their sales numbers will be tiny. E-bikes will likewise make much more profit for manufacturers than low-end bikes and appeal to a different market segment than the halo bikes. No manufacturer can afford to ignore a profitable market segment like that. It might only be 1% of the total bike market, but each e-bike probably makes as much profit as 100 cheap commuter bikes.
I have no doubt that it would be more profitable for bike companies to focus on ebikes from now on.
I just don’t agree. Most bike companies have bikes that cost as much, or even more, than their most expensive eBike. The bikes will be more profitable than the eBikes and have a much lower warranty cost.
What are the numbers today? What do the big companies expect the numbers to be in 5 years time based on the current trajectories?
I have no idea, neither do you and with the greatest respect I doubt Brant or Jameso have access to such sensitive commercial information.
My concern is that it will fundamentally change the sport, creating an insurmountable barrier to entry that means mountain bikes will go from being a pastime available to all (or the majority of the population) to a toy where the initial costs are so high the majority of the population won’t be able to get started.
Half-decent mountain bikes were an "expensive toy" long before e-bikes were a thing. Your argument that no-one would be able to buy in to the "sport" would hold water if BSOs no longer existed. Your gripe here isn't e-bikes, it's marketing.
And in any case, if e-bikes do gain traction (so to speak) as is your concern, prices only ever go in one direction when things become mainstream.
‘The sport’ is whatever you make of it.
Well, it's not, seeing as you're the only one sealioning about it. We have no idea what -you- make of it.
None of these were a step change.
...
What happens when the majority of a group has ebikes? Suddenly the non-ebikers are holding the group back.
Again,
Tell me how this is any different from a singlespeeder out riding with a group largely on 27-speed bikes.
There seems to be an assumption that ebikes and bikes will be able to live side by side in harmony for ever more.
There seems to be an assumption that they must do so. What does it matter, this affects you how? People walk, climb, run, ride fixies, ride bouncybikes, ride motorcycles, ride horses, drive cars, pilot helicopters, no-one in a glider ever shook their fist at those in Easy Mode up in their expensive space shuttles.
Go have fun however you see fit. The world will keep turning.
BruceWee… there’s a bit of a contradiction in your fears… that it’ll become uneconomical to produce bikes without motors, and that having motors will price people out of getting involved. Either e-bikes will become much cheaper and so that’s all that’s available from the big companies, or they’ll continue to be bikes without motors being produced and sold for a good chunk less than e-bikes by those big companies. Either way, it means (ignoring the normal inflation that confuses people as to the real value/price of “things today”) that the price of entry to getting out on the trails on wheels will stay much the same as it is today, either on cheaper e-bikes or on cheaper than e-bikes ‘normal” bikes.
I just don’t agree. Most bike companies have bikes that cost as much, or even more, than their most expensive eBike. The bikes will be more profitable than the eBikes and have a much lower warranty cost.
We're all working on the assumption that there is plenty of space for manufacturers to focus on high end normal bikes and ebikes.
The vast majority of bikes are cheap commuter or shopping bikes. The profit on those will be tiny. Then you have your lower-end mountain bikes or road bikes. These will be the majority of bikes sold to people who cycle for sport. The profit on one of those is probably the same as 10 cheap bikes. Then you have your halo bikes, running XTR level gear. The profit on those is probably 10 times an entry level mountain bike, 100 times a cheap shopping bike, but their sales numbers will be tiny. E-bikes will likewise make much more profit for manufacturers than low-end bikes and appeal to a different market segment than the halo bikes. No manufacturer can afford to ignore a profitable market segment like that. It might only be 1% of the total bike market, but each e-bike probably makes as much profit as 100 cheap commuter bikes.
I don't think the market is there to support both. I think major manufactures are going to pick ebikes over high end mountain bikes.
And by high end, I mean anything over 1000 pounds.
Mountain biking will become a hobby where you need a minimum of 3000 quid just to get started.
For most on here, that won't be an issue. We can afford it. Or we'll just keep riding our old kit.
However, in 20 years, mountain bikes will be rich people's toys.
They’ll be £1500 (in today’s money) bikes available to get you out on the trail for decades. Maybe they’ll be some cheaply equipped e-bikes, maybe they’ll be some reasonably equipped bikes without motors… probably both. I think you’re worrying about a very unlikely scenario.
The more likely scenario is many people riding in ebike only groups… but not everyone… people will still mix it up if they want to be sociable… just like mixed ability/fitness rides have always been.
We absolutely can. Everything we do causes some damage. It’s clearly much better to just ride to your local woods rather than load a bike onto a Hummer (or a e-tron) and drive there. Even that would be better than taking a flight to the Alps. We each have a view on an acceptable level of damage. Ebikes clearly do more than a normal bike.
I'd agree with that. And obviously bikes do more damage than walking. I think the tough bit is aligning the acceptable levels of damage with activities you don't personally do. Round my way 4x4 use made bits of trail unusable for most. But those are byways, so really that's on the landowner to maintain them, not 4x4 users. Similar, some bridleways are impassable in winter on an mtb due to horses. Again, clue's in the name 🙂
I think you’re working about a very unlikely scenario.
The question you have to ask yourself is, who is going to buy a 1500 quid non-electric bike if the majority of people are riding ebikes?
The only people who are going to buy them are people who only ride alone.
If that's the case, they are going to become a premium product due to the lack of mass-production. Then the price isn't going to be 1500, it's going to be 2500.
Anyone who has the choice of a 2500 quid normal bike and a 3000 quid ebike is going to choose the ebike. Unless they are weirdos like me, but I'll probably be building my own bikes by then.
Which is why e-bikes are great, they are a step change in what a bike is, what you can get out of them, and who can get about on them, this is not incremental fiddling.
It’s exactly the same step change that happen in the late 19th century
Now, where did that end up?
E-bikes will go the same way. It’s human nature.
We absolutely can. Everything we do causes some damage.
Absolutely. So then we're back to "what I do, that's OK. What everyone else does, that's unacceptable." How do we quantify that?
E-bikes "clearly" do more damage than regular bikes (do they, is it all that clear?) Riding clearly causes more damage than walking. Walking does more damage than staying at home.
If someone is hooning around the local woods on several grand's worth of full-sus scattering dog-walkers like bowling pins then they don't get to take the moral high ground over someone on an electrically assisted bike just because they're not in a Range Rover I'm afraid.
But we need to be mindful that this isn’t a new argument. We could cross out “motor” and write “gears” in Funky’s post above (and many others) and it’ll still scan.
adding a motor and batteries to a pedal powered machine is a very different thing to adding gears. If you can’t see that then we’re simply not on the same page and can’t take the debate any further. To me it is a very different concept and makes it an entirely different vehicle. Some people may disagree and that’s fine. In this day and age adding unnecessary batteries and motors to things is just a dick move in my opinion.
Possibly I’m just poor or jealous or some other thing mentioned in other posts. That or possibly I do have actual environmental concerns about what will happen with batteries and knackered motors. That can’t true though because somebody else said so in a previous post. Opinions are like arseholes etc
Riding clearly causes more damage than walking. Walking does more damage than staying at home.
Wasn’t there some research done that says the opposite? Size of contact patch and speed of movement over the ground or something? Might have been one bike and lots of walkers so not a fair comparison. I’m probably wrong and can’t be arsed going down a Google rabbit hole though
We’re all working on the assumption that there is plenty of space for manufacturers to focus on high end normal bikes and ebikes.
You're working on the assumption that there isn't.
The cheapest adult mountain bike on Halfords is sub-£150. No company that wanted to stay in business ever stopped making budget-friendly products because luxury items existed.
Plus, the second-hand market exists (and dear christ if any demographic should know about turning over last year's castoffs it's cyclists). What do we suppose the going rate for a several-year old e-bike might be?
Now, where did that end up?
There are already electric motor bikes. That evolution isn’t needed.
You’re working on the assumption that there isn’t.
The cheapest adult mountain bike on Halfords is sub-£150. No company that wanted to stay in business ever stopped making budget-friendly products because luxury items existed.
The majority of the big brands profits come from selling kids bikes, commuter bikes, etc. We're a tiny percentage of their profit margin and the big brands steer the industry through their decisions. Sure, a small company might introduce a new standard or new technology but once the big boys decide that's what they are doing, that's what they are doing.
I'm sure Giant and Spesh wouldn't hesitate to never sell another regular mountain bike again if they could make the same profits through selling fewer ebikes.
Once that happened the rest of the industry would have no option but to focus fully on ebikes.
Sure, normal bikes would still be available as a niche. And you would have to pay the premium you do for any niche product.
Your choice then is to buy a budget normal bike, a premium priced regular mountain bike, or a good value for money ebike (at a price that will still exclude the majority of the population).
In five years time we'll all know one way or the other, I guess.
I find it amusing that e-bikes with their nasty batteries and motors are an environmental catastrophy, but EV's are just fine and dandy, we should all be driving them 🤣
That would be because EVs are intended to replace vehicles that only ever spew shite from their backends.
Whereas e-bikes are a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist.
I reckon that some time in the next few years Giant and Spesh are going to say, ‘Normal bikes are dead and proper mountain bikes are ebikes’. The industry will be forced to follow them because that’s the way these things work.
While I do see your concerns BruceWee and I agree e-bikes are a step change, the biggest change in bicycles since the safety bicycle layout perhaps, I just don't agree that the longer term impact will be as severe or polarising as you're concerned it may be. I don't think your concern isn't valid. But I do believe that non electric bikes and MTBs will always have a place and market forces will mean we'll have choice at average value prices.
What e-MTBs will test is what proportion of the 'sport of MTB' is powered built trail laps and what is 'gravel plus' XC, and there's always something in between. I don't know how the split will end up overall or what will be seen as 'mainstream MTB' in 2030.
I think eMTB will be big, influential and cost of entry will come down, it's changing what MTB is to some extent, but I don't see it displacing non ebikes.
Whether the changes coming with more eMTBs is a bad thing I don't know. I personally don't think it'll be noticeable to those outside the scene, to those within it it'll all depend on what riding is to you now and who you ride with.
Whereas e-bikes are a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist.
I think they do solve a problem, if you think of them as medicine, ie, they allow people who wouldn't otherwise be able to due to ill-health to get out there and keep riding, either by themselves or with their friends.
Like many other types of medicine, it can be abused by perfectly healthy people as well.
While I do see your concerns BruceWee and I agree e-bikes are a step change, the biggest change in bicycles since the safety bicycle layout perhaps, I just don’t agree that the longer term impact will be as severe or polarising as you’re concerned it may be. I don’t think your concern isn’t valid. But I do believe that non electric bikes and MTBs will always have a place and market forces will mean we’ll have choice at average value prices.
I could be completely wrong. However, if I'm not, I suspect the change will come so quickly we won't be able to do anything about it.
But probably we wouldn't be able to do anything about it anyway so what difference does it make.
That would be because EVs are intended to replace vehicles that only ever spew shite from their backends.
Whereas e-bikes are a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist.
What about getting commuters out of cars and onto e-bikes?
An e-bike is clearly a solution. It can help you get uphill and mean some people will ride that would not have ridden if they had to ride up hills - voila, a solution.
There are many more solutions it brings and even helping lazy people ride faster is a solution if that is what they are after.
I find it amusing that e-bikes with their nasty batteries and motors are an environmental catastrophy, but EV’s are just fine and dandy, we should all be driving them 🤣
EV's are dreadful for the environment but an improvement on fossil fuel powered cars. Ebikes aren't an environmental improvement over normal bikes at all. Ebikes are an improvement over cars for commuters but very few people are going to be using a emtb as a commuting tool, they're just toys like most normal mtb's
Normal bikes aren't an environmental improvement over shoes though, when used for leisure and not replacing a car. Sorry, but this still looks to me like you're prepared to accept the environmental impact of your own use case but no more. FWIW, what's the environmental impact of differing frame materials and bike specs? Is this something you've considered?
What about getting commuters out of cars and onto e-bikes?
That’s never going to happen. Because e-bikes (and motorbikes of all types) don’t solve the main problems which are getting piss wet through when it rains, struggling to carry things and being a vulnerable road user. Having to put in a little effort isn’t the reason why most people don’t commute by two wheels.
Your choice then is to buy a budget normal bike, a premium priced regular mountain bike, or a good value for money ebike (at a price that will still exclude the majority of the population).
🤷♂️ and?
The majority of the population (who have any interest in bicycles) will buy all of those other things you just listed.
But as we can't solve the weather, physics or ban **** drivers from the roads, then e-bikes do indeed get some people out of their cars and cycling, which is clearly a good thing.
That’s never going to happen
I refuse to believe that NO-ONE who previously used a car to commute now uses an e-bike of some description, at least part of the year. And some of those people will have been reluctant to do it on a normal bike. It may not be 1000's, but if it's one person.
Personally, I'll sometimes use the eeb (not work commuting) instead of the Disco, when the normal bike would be too much effort, or too slow. I'm under no impression it's a full carbon offset, but if people are going to start bringing the environment into the argument, then I'll counter with my own experiences
You’re already a cyclist. A self selecting group. I hard pressed to believe that a non-cyclist is going to swap their car, bus or train for an e-bike. There’s simply no advantage for them. At least not an advantage that a non-cyclist would recognise or think is an improvement.
And genuinely, if you’re going to commute by two wheels, just get a motorbike. Even a small one is better than an e-bike for commuting.
Ben, the advantage is that you don't need to get hot and sweaty and if you're unfit then hills stop being an issue.
Motorbikes have significant barriers to use that an ebike doesn't have.
. I hard pressed to believe that a non-cyclist is going to swap their car, bus or train for an e-bike. There’s simply no advantage for them.
Have you been to a city in Europe recently?
Ebikes are booming as general transport on top of the baseline use of regular bikes. The UK is behind that curve but European countries have a mix of the same negatives and other factors we have here.
🤷♂️ and?
The majority of the population (who have any interest in bicycles) will buy all of those other things you just listed.
The issue starts when the cost of entry to the sport becomes prohibitive to the majority of the population. Currently the majority of the population can take up mountain biking if they want to.
If mountain biking becomes primarily emountain biking the sport will chug along happily for the next 20 years or so but then we (the current mountain bikers) will either die or stop riding.
With only rich young people able to afford to start mountain biking, the sport/hobby/past time/whatever you want to call it will die. Sure, ebikes will still be around but the culture will be very different.
We like to pretend that mountain biking is just for middle aged IT managers (and on here it may well be true) but my mountain bike club had everyone from teenagers to pensioners with all different financial backgrounds from the quite well off the barely getting by who just happened to have a passion for riding bikes off road.
It's a great club for people who like riding mountain bikes. Regardless of your financial situation or the quality of bike you have, everyone can get together and go for a ride.
If mountain biking becomes primarily e-mountain biking, that will be lost. Not overnight, but certainly within a generation.
Like I said, I could be completely wrong about this. Maybe ebikes and bikes will be able to sit together quite happily in Specialized's and Giant's line ups forever.
I just suspect that one year they won't and that will be that.
You’re already a cyclist. A self selecting group
You missed my point. Even as a cyclist, I'll use my eeb instead of the car on some occassions, when the normal bike wouldn't be an option. If I didn't have the eeb, there are some occassions where I'd be in a car rather than on a bike
@BruceWee, you seem to have your eyes firmly fixated on one point and won't let go.
I'll bet you £100 that in the next 5 years, the cost of entry into the leisure activity (not many of us do it for sport) in question will become any more restrictive than it is now, other than the fact that the cost of EVERYTHING becomes more and more ridiculous.
Save this post and come back to me, no doubt I'll still be here. If I'm not dead
The issue starts when the cost of entry to the sport becomes prohibitive to the majority of the population.
I can go buy a brand new bicycle for £150 right now. Do you suppose that's going to change?
Again (again), is the second-hand market going to evaporate?
If mountain biking becomes primarily e-mountain biking,
then brand new bottom-end e-bikes will cost £150.
You keep ****ing on about "the sport" and I still have no idea what you're on about. That might well be on me, sorry if so.
Like I said, I could be completely wrong about this. Maybe ebikes and bikes will be able to sit together quite happily in Specialized’s and Giant’s line ups forever.
I just suspect that one year they won’t and that will be that.
Can you no longer buy bikes with canti brakes? Without dropper posts? Not made from carbon fibre, tungsten carbide and unicorn hair?
It's a nonsense argument. It might have relevance if "the sport" is cheering on professionals on TV, widespread as that is. But kids are going to be pulling rotting frames out of the canal to fix up long after I'm dead.
I think they do solve a problem, if you think of them as medicine, ie, they allow people who wouldn’t otherwise be able to due to ill-health to get out there and keep riding, either by themselves or with their friends.
While I agree eeebs do potentially serve a very useful role helping the less physically able participate in MTBing, the main issue is they're not really being marketed and sold to the less able are they? They're already a premium aspirational version of the MTBs that the industry, journalists and lots of consumers have a thundering throbber for, mainly because, well money and end of days capitalism still rule. All other justifications just sit under that heading for me, "it's an expensive toy, I want one so here's some other reasons they're fantastic for the world"...
Like many other types of medicine, it can be abused by perfectly healthy people as well.
I think they're already being "abused" by perfectly healthy people. I'm not sure what the best analogy is Viagra? Nandralone? EPO? Whatever it's going to be an epidemic... Maybe Oxycontin? Does that make specialized the Sacklers?
I guess the overwhelming message from this thread is that in the next 5-10 years most MTBing will basically be e-MTBing; it'll all be stockbrokers, dentists and the massively overmortagaged, new golfing it up for a couple of summers before the next big thing draws their fancy. That's how SBC/Trek/Giant want it, a high price point, high turnover "sporting arms race" where the customers lose interest about the same time the warranty expires...
I think MTBing might be "dead to me" when we get to that point and I'll just stick to boring "analogue Gravel" (assuming that doesn't get heavily infected with the eeebs too), but good news! we're not there just yet.
On a marginally more positive note I think fully human powered mountain biking will just about survive till the early 2030s before being eeebed out of existence, it should just about coincide with my 50s and the kids becoming (technically) adults so I guess I have enough time to come to terms with it and save for my last nice non-E-MTB perhaps.
Until then I'll continue to cast negativity towards E-bikes because they're murdering my favourite flavour of bicycling slowly and they're just hideous... 😉
@BruceWee, you seem to have your eyes firmly fixated on one point and won’t let go.
I’ll bet you £100 that in the next 5 years, the cost of entry into the leisure activity (not many of us do it for sport) in question will become any more restrictive than it is now, other than the fact that the cost of EVERYTHING becomes more and more ridiculous.
Yes, because everyone is working under the assumption that mountain biking is not going to become e-mountain biking. I think that's a naive assumption but I could be wrong. It's all going to depend on what Spesh and Giant decide.
I can go buy a brand new bicycle for £150 right now. Do you suppose that’s going to change?
Not to sound snobby, but exactly what kind of mountain biking are you going to do on that brand new £150 bicycle?
then brand new bottom-end e-bikes will cost £150.
Not unless something magical happens in battery technology.
You keep ****ing on about “the sport” and I still have no idea what you’re on about. That might well be on me, sorry if so.
The best way for me to describe 'the sport' is my old mountain biking club where all sorts of different people got together on Wednesday night or on a Sunday morning and went for a ride. People of all ages and all abilities on all different types and quality of bikes.
Some raced XC, some raced downhill, most didn't race at all.
That's the sport to me, don't know if that makes any sense.
Can you no longer buy bikes with canti brakes? Without dropper posts? Not made from carbon fibre, tungsten carbide and unicorn hair?
It’s a nonsense argument. It might have relevance if “the sport” is cheering on professionals on TV, widespread as that is. But kids are going to be pulling rotting frames out of the canal to fix up long after I’m dead.
I'd be surprised if you could buy a bike with canti-brakes without paying a ridiculous premium. V-brakes are what come with BSOs these days.
If you want to start mountain biking, most likely you are going to buy yourself an aluminium framed hardtail or maybe a full suspension if someone points you in the direction of a Calibre Bossnut.
No one starts on a steel framed bike, unless they have bought a BSO but a few might try it once before finding their way to an actual bike shop and buying and aluminium framed bike of some description.
In theory, steel is an 'inferior' material to aluminium and should be cheaper. However, mass-produced 'proper' mountain bikes are made of aluminium so despite being an easier material to work with and, in theory, inferior, you still end up paying a premium for it.
Enthusiasts and veterans pay that premium, but anyone getting into the sport doesn't.
Now, if mountain biking becomes e-mountain biking, those Calibre Bossnuts will become niche products. They will no longer benefit from mass-production. If you want one, you'll have to pay the premium.
If mountain biking becomes e-mountain biking, the entry point to the sport/hobby/past time/leisure activity will disappear.
Ebikes that you would want to go mountain biking with are never going to be available for much less than 3K.
And the reliability is going to improve, but not to the extent that beginners would want to drop 1.5K on a second hand e-mountain bike.
But yeah, I could be wrong. I just think people are putting too much faith in Spesh and Giant not being as interested in their bottom lines for next year as they are the overall health of the mountain biking in 20 years.
E-bikes as commuting vehicle as opposed to purely for riding around the woods is a different proposition. E-cargo bikes for load carrying are great. For the record I don’t think EV’s are good either. A necessary step away from fossil fuels but the aim needs to be fewer cars of any type. That’s a whole different thread though. Recently conducted a big survey at work and if any of you think you can convince a decent number of people to travel more than a couple of miles on any kind of bike let alone in the winter, well, good luck with that.
I guess the overwhelming message from this thread is that in the next 5-10 years most MTBing will basically be e-MTBing
That message is coming from people who have no more idea what next week's lottery numbers are than the state of the bicycle market in that time frame.
That’s a whole different thread though.
So was this, but it was hijacked by people who'd rather slag off eBikes and their riders and make up stories about the sky falling on their head than help the OP with his problem, which, in case we've all forgotten, was...
When we first got our ebikes the anti ebike banter from the group was light hearted. Over time this has turned nasty and pretty continual eventually coming to a head when one of the group said some really nasty stuff about ebikes and ebikers.
I rode into a headwind for 50 miles today. By the end I was wishing I had an e-bike.
So was this, but it was hijacked by people who’d rather slag off eBikes and their riders and make up stories about the sky falling on their head than help the OP with his problem, which, in case we’ve all forgotten, was…
I've mentioned several times what I thought the issue might be and how it relates to the larger issue as I see it.
Basically, mixed groups are fine so long as ebikes are the minority. However, if ebikes become the majority the remaining non-ebikers have to decide whether to hold back the entire group, buy an ebike, or stop riding with the rest of the group.
I can't really see a solution, but I can see the basis of the nasty comments made in the OP's group if some members of his group are worried that their options could end up coming down to buy an ebike or **** off.
You might think we're making up stories about the sky falling, but that just makes me think you'd be one of the first calling for us non-ebikers to **** off if we started holding the ebiking majority back.
In the OP, in a group of 7, 2 people have eBikes. How does that justify the nasty comments and how does it end up at FIFO, when in this case fitting in is clearly getting rid of the eBikes?
The OP and his riding buddies just need to grow up. Have an adult conversation about it and move on if they can no longer accommodate each other’s riding choices.
You might think we’re making up stories about the sky falling, but that just makes me think you’d be one of the first calling for us non-ebikers to **** off if we started holding the ebiking majority back.
And you're way off the mark. I was a victim of FIFO from Real Riders before I got an eBike because I couldn't keep up on the climbs; they'd wait at the top until I arrived and then head off without giving me a chance to catch my breath. One take away from that was they weren't my mates, they were just people I rode with, rather like the OP. Another was that I wouldn't want to do that to anyone else.
I'll ride with anyone, on any bike. I really don't care as long as they don't break rule one. If they are slower on the climbs I'll slow down and ride with them, I've even been known to turn my bike off on occasion...
In the OP, in a group of 7, 2 people have eBikes. How does that justify the nasty comments and how does it end up at FIFO, when in this case fitting in is clearly getting rid of the eBikes?
So long as the majority are on normal bikes it's fine. The ebikers put their bikes on minimum and everyone gets on with it.
Maybe two or three others in this group are making noises about getting an ebike and someone got spooked, thinking he was going to be forced to get an ebike himself, hold back everyone else, or stop riding with his friends. I don't know.
Hate tends to come from fear, after-all.
What's your solution if a group finds itself with one or two members on regular bikes while the rest are on ebikes? It seems to me it's going to lead to resentment one way or another. Either from ebikers being held back all the time, or non-ebikers being made to feel like they are holding everyone back all the time.
As has been said, there has never been a step change like this in mountain biking before. This is going to massively change the dynamics of group rides but especially when non-ebikers suddenly find themselves in the minority.
I think this is the root of a lot of the ebike 'hate'. Fear of being kicked out of your group of friends.
supernova
Full Member
I rode into a headwind for 50 miles today. By the end I was wishing I had an e-bike.
After 30-40 miles into a headwind on an ebike, you'd likely have a very heavy bike and no assist for the remaining 10.
Basically, mixed groups are fine so long as ebikes are the minority. However, if ebikes become the majority the remaining non-ebikers have to decide whether to hold back the entire group, buy an ebike, or stop riding with the rest of the group.
So not really that different from mixed fitness groups riding normal bikes then?
First world problems!
"Does my ebike offend you and your lack of fitness? I tell you what, I'll soft pedal alongside you so you don't feel so inadequate"
Good thing I rode by myself today in case I offended another rider because I managed to get up a climb 30 seconds quicker than them 😱
(Some or all of the above was meant to be sarcastic)
Edit: I don't actually own an ebike but the CX bike I was riding today can shift a bit.
What’s your solution if a group finds itself with one or two members on regular bikes while the rest are on ebikes? It seems to me it’s going to lead to resentment one way or another. Either from ebikers being held back all the time, or non-ebikers being made to feel like they are holding everyone back all the time.
I only ride winch and plummet these days so unless it's freezing cold waiting for slower riders isn't an issue, however I don't see why it even needs to be an issue regardless of the type of riding. IMO, it all comes down to Rule One; don't be a dick. If someone wants to make it an issue that's fine by me, I'll just ride with different people.
And you’re way off the mark. I was a victim of FIFO from Real Riders before I got an eBike because I couldn’t keep up on the climbs; they’d wait at the top until I arrived and then head off without giving me a chance to catch my breath.
Sorry this caught my eye, you weren't a victim you were just riding in a totally inappropriate group for your ability. The reality was you were spoiling everybody else's ride. I mostly ride by myself these days. Mixed ability groups unless their a completely social event are just frustrating and unpleasant for both the slow and fast. Especially in winter waiting around in the cold just sucks. I've got loads of friends if I want to hang about and chat we meet in the pub. Bike rides are for riding.
Sorry to hear that’s your outlook on group rides. It’s not shared by everyone though.
Not to sound snobby, but exactly what kind of mountain biking are you going to do on that brand new £150 bicycle?
It's got a wheel at each end. You're the one predicting the demise of unpowered cycling.
Not unless something magical happens in battery technology.
You know how "the future" works, right?
The best way for me to describe ‘the sport’ is my old mountain biking club where all sorts of different people got together on Wednesday night or on a Sunday morning and went for a ride. People of all ages and all abilities on all different types and quality of bikes.
Well, what happened to stop you doing that?
Your old club wasn't a sport. You've just described a group of mates cocking about on bikes who later drifted apart; that's not the fault of batteries.
No one starts on a steel framed bike,
...
Enthusiasts and veterans pay that premium, but anyone getting into the sport doesn’t.
So which is it?
I just think people are putting too much faith in Spesh and Giant not being as interested in their bottom lines
A quick google would suggest that an entry-level Giant is £350.
Basically, mixed groups are fine so long as ebikes are the minority. However, if ebikes become the majority the remaining non-ebikers have to decide whether to hold back the entire group, buy an ebike, or stop riding with the rest of the group.
Basically, mixed groups are fine so long as geared bikes are the minority. However, if geared bikes become the majority the remaining single-speeders have to decide whether to hold back the entire group, buy a geared bike, or stop riding with the rest of the group.
I can’t really see a solution
Really? I can.
So long as the majority are on normal bikes it’s fine.
"Normal." Oof.
So e-bikes are abnormal? What defines "normal" here, the majority?
What’s your solution if a group finds itself with one or two members on regular bikes while the rest are on ebikes?
1) Don't be a dick towards your fellow riders,
2) If you're unable to do 1) then form two groups.
I guess the overwhelming message from this thread is that in the next 5-10 years most MTBing will basically be e-MTBing;
Go to any trail centre on any weekend and it already is. Even out in the hills around half of the bikes I see are Emtb riders. It could be that I don't see the normal bikes out in the trail as they're going at roughly the same pace as me but ebikes fly past on the hills but at every car park or stopping point it's a sea of the things.
As for the mixed group issue? Just use Rule No1, the same as in any mixed ability situation.
Normal.” Oof.
So e-bikes are abnormal? What defines “normal” here, the majority?
this was covered a long time ago. The definition of a bicycle is
a vehicle consisting of two wheels held in a frame one behind the other, propelled by pedals and steered with handlebars attached to the front wheel.
This is a normal bike. A bike propelled by something additional/else is a different type of bike, a new species if you will. There are bikes and e-bikes, therefor a bike would be the norm, e-bikes the abnorm. i.e deviating from what is normal, usual or historic. It’s not derogatory, just explanatory.
Go to any trail centre on any weekend and it already is. Even out in the hills around half of the bikes I see are Emtb riders. It could be that I don’t see the normal bikes out in the trail as they’re going at roughly the same pace as me but ebikes fly past on the hills but at every car park or stopping point it’s a sea of the things.
I think a part of this is because under normal/previous circumstances almost everyone was moving around trail centres at the same approximate rate, so you didn’t run into many people except at the top of climbs where people were resting. E-bikes are much faster up the climbs and don’t require as much rest for the riders, so they catch up with you a lot more, so you think there’s more of them, but that’s just because it’s what you’re seeing local to you, at the time, on the trail.
I very rarely get caught or overtaken by another rider at a trail centre unless they’re on an ebike, so my view might be, “e-bikes are everywhere” but in reality, they’re just faster and thus I see them and not others. This doesn’t mean I’m fast, in reality it means I’m well in the average otherwise I’d be catching people. I’m not 🙂
I'm dead slow round the loops right now so get passed by pretty much everyone 🤣. Get your point though, but just glancing round the car park it seems like half the bikes are Ebikes and expensive ones too.
Can you no longer buy bikes with canti brakes? Without dropper posts? Not made from carbon fibre, tungsten carbide and unicorn hair?
I just bought a brand new bike 3 months ago. It is steel frame and forks, canti brake and even square taper BB and cost £750. So lowish cost and very old technology. I ride it everywhere, including where people ride MTBs and eMTBs.
If a lot of higher end MTB options get replaced with eMTBs in the future that is just because that is what people are buying, can't blame the manufacturers for that but there will always be normal bikes just as there are bikes like mine in a sea of 'modern' bikes.
I rode into a headwind for 50 miles today. By the end I was wishing I had an e-bike.
I rode similar yesterday, wind all over the place. It was bloody hard work, but it never once crossed my mind that I wanted to be on an ebike. I do it because it can be hard. I got off thinking ‘that was a bloody hard ride, you achieved something there’.
Unless a day comes when I am physically not capable of pushing pedals around, I won’t be riding an ebike. And then, I’ll probably just use my motorbikes. Because I don’t see e-bikes as a better pushbike, I see them as a poor motorbike.
I’ll not denigrate someone for choosing to ride one, no more so than I would someone who chooses to ride a singlespeed, a recumbent, or anything else I don’t fancy riding. But they’re not for me, because to me, they don’t provide the sport I want to do.
However, if geared bikes become the majority the remaining single-speeders have to decide whether to hold back the entire group, buy a geared bike, or stop riding with the rest of the group.
This is not my experience of singlespeeding. SSers usually make it to the top of the climbs first on anything which isn't super technical. They/we have no bailout gears so just have to crank it and maintain momentum. Even in the Lakes - SSers were up first.
@Cougar Most of your post makes little sense to me. If your definition of mountain biking includes anything that can be done more than once on £150 BSO then maybe that explains the gulf in our understanding. That's not being snobby, that's just a fact.
One thing I will say is, please don't get too fixated on the fact I call mountain biking a sport. It just fits in to the mental model I have of what constitutes a sport. When I go mountain biking, I bring a first aid kit, a survival blanket, and anything else that will help me survive long enough for mountain rescue to come and find me if things go wrong. To me that makes it a sport as opposed to football which in my mental model is a game (if you want to blame anyone, blame Hemingway, he can be quite impressionable of 16 year olds).
If it's that upsetting then please mentally replace any reference to sport with hobby/past time/leisure activity/etc.
Also, batteries aren't going to become less expensive because 'the future'. Unless there is a world changing discovery in battery technology, they are only going to get more expensive in the coming years.
Let me explain where I'm coming from in this and why I am concerned for the future of the sport.
I grew up messing around on bikes with my friends. I had toy shop BMXs, BSOs, the typical sort of bikes parents who don't know anything about bikes buy their kids.
As we became teenagers my friends lost interest but I still liked doing jumps and messing about. I started buying MBUK and began to realise that my 20" Peugeot wasn't the best tool for the job. I started looking around for a 'proper' mountain bike.
The year I turned 16 I worked all summer to save up £400. I had my eye on a Kona Cindercone but what I really wanted was an Orange P7. That was going to require a parental contribution.
My Dad must have been sick of straightening out the steel tubes on my Peugeot as I kept trying to find the limit for a drop to flat (3ft before the forks bent, apparently) because they gave me the extra £250 I needed for the Orange.
There I was, on my new bike searching for some proper mountain biking for my proper mountain bike. Unfortunately I got mugged by a couple of junkies for my bike as I rode along a canal tow path so my journey wasn't off to the best start.
I was assured that the house insurance would cover the bike by my parents but by some miracle the police found someone riding around on my bike (possibly because my description included a list of the make and model of each and every component on my bike, there wasn't much doubt it was mine). The guy said he bought it for £20 and quite happily shopped the junkies he bought it from.
Reunited, I thought to myself, 'Maybe I should find some other people to ride with.'
I can't actually remember how I found the club as this was pre-internet days. I vaguely remember looking in some sort of ancient yellow book. Anyway, along I went, eager to do some proper mountain biking.
Half way round the route I was knackered. A couple of the guys said, 'We can take you back to the hall if you like.' I gratefully accepted. On the way back they gave me some helpful tips like, 'You know, tracksuit bottoms aren't really the best thing to go biking with, they get wet and uncomfortable' and 'When it's dark, like it is now, lights make it much easier to see' and, 'Have you thought about getting a helmet?'
Anyway, the weeks went by and I got fitter (and got the rest of the stuff you really should have to go biking) and found I was able to keep up. I started going away for the Sunday rides, getting a lift from the older guys in their big estate cars up to places like Glencoe and Kinlochleven. It was absolutely incredible.
At first I really couldn't understand how anyone could afford the kit many in the club had. My bike was £650 which seemed like a lot but there were guys there with bikes that I knew from the magazines cost upwards of £2K and which I assumed no one actually bought, but there they were.
Over the next couple of years I worked through the summers. I upgraded the worn out drivetrain to an LX/XT mix. The next year I bought a set of grey market Marzocchi Z2s and a Hayes Clara front brake (no disc mounts on the P7 frame so I stuck with Vs on the back). My bike would have been around £1500 if I'd bought it in one go and suddenly I realised my kit was the same level as everyone else's in the club.
The point of this story is that if mountain biking becomes primarily e-mountain biking, there is no route into the sport for 16 year old BruceWee. By the time I would have had the money to afford an entry level e-mountain bike I would have been in my mid-twenties. That's almost 10 years of mountain biking firmly routing itself as part of my identity, not to mention the fact it's far easier to learn the skills and learn to bounce when your in your mid-teens.
Even if your kit isn't quite as good as others in the group, the important factor is your fitness. Kit makes a tiny difference in terms of percentages. With ebikes, the difference becomes the kit. No matter how fit you get, you are simply never going to be able to keep up if the majority are on ebikes.
If the natural progression from pissing about in the woods to 'proper' mountain biking is lost, the sport as we know it dies. It's not going to survive purely through the sons and daughters of people who are already mountain biking and richie rich kids who will play with their new tow for a while but eventually get bored with it.
If mountain biking becomes e-mountain biking, and the websites present the main part of the sport as being e-mountain bikes, and every group and club is made up primarily of ebikers apart from a few aging grumpy retro-grouches like myself, kids like I was are simply not going to be able to take up the sport.
I just bought a brand new bike 3 months ago. It is steel frame and forks, canti brake and even square taper BB and cost £750. So lowish cost and very old technology. I ride it everywhere, including where people ride MTBs and eMTBs.
Is that actually lowish cost for what it is?
To me you are paying a premium for non-mainstream technology. Have a look on CRC at what's available for £750 and the tell me you aren't paying a huge premium for steel frame and forks, canti brakes, and a square taper BB.
https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/kona-cinder-cone-hardtail-bike-2022/rp-prod206854
If a beginner was asking you what mountain bike they should get, would you tell them to get your bike or something like the Kona?
My bike was £650
In what year was this and what would the equivalent bike cost these days?
In what year was this and what would the equivalent bike cost these days?
1997. Apparently that would be around £1200 in today's money. If my parents hadn't contributed I would have gone for the Kona Cindercone which was £400. Around £700 in today's money.
It's not an insurmountable amount for a kid with a summer job, I reckon.
I've just re-read the OP... assuming you're not being an e-dick by turning the power down, choosing a lower gear and staying with the neeb riders instead of ripping off and waiting at the top of hills like an e-throbber...
Get some new mates. Sad, but true.
I think MTBing might be “dead to me” when we get to that point and I’ll just stick to boring “analogue Gravel”
What the...??
You MTB because of the 'scene', somehow? If you want to ride an MTB on trails, then do it. If you don't, then don't. How on earth does anyone else's bike choice affect that? If you sit poised at the top of a nice bit of singletrack and you see a couple of eBiking accountants on it, do you then not want to do it any more?
Not to sound snobby, but exactly what kind of mountain biking are you going to do on that brand new £150 bicycle?
I just went and hit the new mulch jumps at Twisted on a £150** new bike... and the big cannon and whale tail. Lots of kids there doing the same (just far better than me)
**Technically when built I think it cost me a bit over £215.. and the aim was under £200 I only just missed.
Wasn't actually the plan I had 2 long travel bikes in the van... and I'm shit at big steep stuff anyway - certainly wasn't the bike holding me back!
I just went and hit the new mulch jumps at Twisted on a £150** new bike… and the big cannon and whale tail. Lots of kids there doing the same (just far better than me)
**Technically when built I think it cost me a bit over £215.. and the aim was under £200 I only just missed.
Going to need some details on that build I reckon.
All new parts on a bike build for £215, I'm interested to hear how you managed that.
Or when you say new do you mean new to you? 🙂
Even if your kit isn’t quite as good as others in the group, the important factor is your fitness. Kit makes a tiny difference in terms of percentages. With ebikes, the difference becomes the kit. No matter how fit you get, you are simply never going to be able to keep up if the majority are on ebikes.
If the natural progression from pissing about in the woods to ‘proper’ mountain biking is lost, the sport as we know it dies. It’s not going to survive purely through the sons and daughters of people who are already mountain biking and richie rich kids who will play with their new tow for a while but eventually get bored with it.
This is a very, very fair point.
Cougar
Basically, mixed groups are fine so long as geared bikes are the minority. However, if geared bikes become the majority the remaining single-speeders have to decide whether to hold back the entire group, buy a geared bike, or stop riding with the rest of the group.
It really isn't the same.
In a typical bunch on a short ride the SS will tend to be up non tech hills first (as someone already said) the longer the ride and more hills will begin to take a toll but this can be compensated by fitness and both are getting tired.
The eMTB doesn't get tired.(whilst it has battery).. if anything as the rider gets tired they can just put on more assistance.
To some extent this goes back to something I said pages back... planning a mixed ride takes more planning/effort if everyone has a decent time and the dynamic is easily upset by 1-2 dicks.
(We have one in our riding group but his son is a great lad so we put up with/manage him)
It’s not going to survive purely through the sons and daughters of people who are already mountain biking and richie rich kids who will play with their new tow for a while but eventually get bored with it.
There are already a great many people who piss about in the woods on expensive bikes and then get bored with it. There always has been, eBikes or not. They used to push up climbs, don't you remember whining about them 20 years ago?
All new parts on a bike build for £215, I’m interested to hear how you managed that.
Or when you say new do you mean new to you?
Mostly new...
Going to need some details on that build I reckon.
Current prices Jack Flash no paint £50 (I paid £100)
https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/FRPXJF25DRAW/planet-x-jack-flash-25-year-anniversary-disc-frame-raw
(I'm sure it was £50 yesterday, certainly have been in the past ??)
Forks £50
https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/FOOOCR26DO/on-one-cromo-26er-mtb-fork-disc-only#FOOOCR26DO-BLK-DO
(I put some 27.5 RS something silver on that were £90)
Rims cost me £15 each off Amazon (Spank Race 28/26" in any colour so long as it was blue)
Hubs were £50 I think (old superstar sale on their rebranded ones)
Spokes were cheap ones.. can't remember how much tyres were £5 each... (originally had kids old tyre on the front and a free (unusable tubeless XC on the back)
UN55 BB and some new cranks I got given... but you can get sq taper pretty cheap.
Headset was £15 (brand X)
Seatpost.. bars and stem Amazon/eBay saddle was £15
Pedals and brakes got reused but you can get a MT200 for next to nothing...
I was going to SS it but went over budget and had a mech/shifter/cassette
So realistically a kid can find £150-£200 and source stuff for something that can at least not snap.
I doesn't NEED to be new though... (unlike eMTB)
There is an old nearly complete DMR trailstar right now on FB marketplace for £90...
There are already a great many people who piss about in the woods on expensive bikes and then get bored with it. There always has been, eBikes or not. They used to push up climbs, don’t you remember whining about them 20 years ago?
20 years ago I was probably one of the ones pushing while people helpfully said, 'You know it takes more energy to walk than to push, right?'
But yeah, even with rich kid's parents buying them expensive toys and playing, the real issue is the loss of the natural progression from kids doing jumps with BSOs to the first proper mountain bike and being able to find people to then go riding with.