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Tosh @Dyna-ti. MTB is my primary fitness source. Add in kayaking and the odd hike in the hills.
From boredom alone I would never get on a turbo (I've a bike, why not use it?) and I hate "sharing" the road with two tonne metal deathtraps.
And can this crap just die please?
You can get whatever workout you want
Yes, you can. But the vast majority of people don't want.
That's why ebikes are being bought in droves by people who would never otherwise ride.
As for "want" - if your engine is broken and you slog up a hill with no assistance and no choice - then that's potentially a workout you might not want - but you'd still have to in pursuit of something else. And that's the primary difference between the two and a source of much consternation. Lots of people on this thread have complained about ebikers evangelising to them why they should buy an ebike, even in the face of them telling them that they don't want one. Part of that is down to the fact that ebikes steal the "have to". Because of this they fundamentally change the experience - and whilst ebikers feel this is clearly for the better, many other people think that's not the case.
I really think you need to spend some quality time on a good ebike, absolute game changer. You can get the same workout, but cover at least twice the distance. Honestly, I think everyone will be on them in a few years.
Honestly, I think everyone will be on them in a few years.
Everyone is going to have to get a lot richer.
Everyone is going to have to get a lot richer.
That's the kicker for me... The most i've ever paid was £3000 for a bike and that was a CRAZY figure in my book.... TO buy soemthing in Eeb and of the spec/type i want i'm guessing i'm in the £7000 bracket.
But as much as the money bothers me, the warranty/motor/battery/computer stuff worries me more. If my Slayer/GT/141 goes wrong, it's invariably something i can fix, at home with some tools and a bit of time.... but if it's an Eeb, i could be without it for weeks, months even and even then, only if under warranty and covered... So... i'm struggling with the whole idea.
Honestly, I think everyone will be on them in a few years.
ooo, you've gone and done it now, get ready for the backlash.
I tend to agree though, I suspect that once they get cheap enough and reliable enough, normal MTB will be the equivalent of a fully rigid single speed is now and ridden by just as few people. Not sure thats just a "few" years away though, I think its going to be quite a long time before emtb becomes cheap.
Would be interesting to create a poll asking who would buy an emtb over a normal mtb if you could get one (a good one) for the price of a good full sus mtb today (say £3k)
That’s why ebikes are being bought in droves by people who would never otherwise ride.
Outside of all the MTB-cultural baggage about what MTB is and isn't, this is why e-bikes are so important. Bikes are fun for pretty much everybody. Having to work at 85% heart rate and sweating isn't for everybody, it's not always what you want when cycling even (commuting or errands, countryside leisure riding, etc). It follows that e-bikes overall are a good thing and the boom will come with some influence into MTB.
I said a while back that MTB as we generally know it will become a powered sport/passtime and I stand by that. We all will deal with that our own way but railing against it won't change things - the problems some are saying they perceive or experience are a people problem not a product problem. People can be educated, so how do we do that?
Someone mentioned signs at trailheads, some trail areas banned e-bikes (but I suspect pressure on cafe/hire repair shop businesses might reverse that if not already). Maybe the industry should support a best practice leaflet / sticker on new e-mTBs. Dunno.
This all started about the differences it creates in a riding group and that's something for riders to sort among themselves (it's a rider ego and tolerance thing?) but the general issues really are down to behavior.
Part of that is down to the fact that ebikes steal the “have to”. Because of this they fundamentally change the experience – and whilst ebikers feel this is clearly for the better, many other people think that’s not the case.
“I still feel that variable gears are only for people over forty-five. Isn't it better to triumph by the strength of your muscles than by the artifice of a derailer? We are getting soft; as for me, give me a fixed gear!”
Henri Desgrange, in 1920-something?
'The only constant is change'.
Lots of people on this thread have complained about ebikers evangelising to them why they should buy an ebike,
Lots?
It's not a problem I've ever encountered out on the trails and I ride in an area that folks visit as an MTB destination so encounter a fairly diverse spectrum of riders.
As someone that rides a 50/50 split of eeb/pedal I've encountered more negative reactions from pedal riders. Though even that is thankfully getting a lot less common.
Seems to me that most folks rub along pretty well in the real word.
I said a while back that MTB as we generally know it will become a powered sport/passtime and I stand by that.
I hope not. At the moment you can get into mountain biking for under £1000. It's a commitment but it's achievable for most people who have some kind of employment.
If mountain biking becomes primarily e-mountain biking then that's going to put a barrier to entry that means eventually the sport will die out. The middle aged professionals will move onto something else when even ebikes become too much effort and they start getting injured.
No young people will bother starting a sport that requires a years worth of disposable income just to try it out and see if they like it.
Honestly, I think everyone will be on them in a few years.
I won't. Not because I dislike them but because for me personally the mental and physical challenge of getting up steep, long technical terrain is what I get satisfaction from in mountain biking. Any assistance with that would remove that challenge and associated satisfaction therefore I won't be using an ebike for mountain biking. Plus, a lot of my rides are longer than a battery would last anyway.
However, if the assisted speed limit was increased to 20-25mph I would be sorely tempted to get one for my 25 mile each way, fairly flat, mostly road commute as I find doing it more than twice a week too much. If the boring commute was made easier I would do it more than twice a week but as my average is speed is already above 15mph the current limit on assisted speed would be of no benefit.
If mountain biking becomes primarily e-mountain biking then that’s going to put a barrier to entry that means eventually the sport will die out.
People will still ride off-road on regular bikes but MTB as a mainstream-image thing will become mainly e-MTB (I think) and the demographic may change a little. MTB has evolved since the late 70s, carries on changing. Regular bikes won't go away, the EWS isn't about to be the EEWS. But there will be a lot of e-bikes on the Stone King Rally route (what was the Trans Provence where Enduro arguably started out) this summer.
I don't think the price really changes things that much, among the last bunch of e-bikers I spoke to on a local ride 2 of the 5 were on bolt-on Bafang conversions of old 26" FS bikes. A good FS bike and an entry E-FS cross over in price. An E-hardtail is fine if you're more of an XC pootler. And people have been driving to the trails in £25K+ vans for a long time, there's £ about, not for us all sure but generally enough to cover the differences between regular and e-bikes.
No young people will bother starting a sport that requires a years worth of disposable income just to try it out and see if they like it.
They won't just dive into E-MTB, like you and I probably started out on a basic bike. They might be into bikes from owning a student hack. Maybe they buy an e-bike as an alternative to a car and use it at the weekends as well as for commuting - they can start to look like £3.5k well spent in that case. Maybe hire centres crop up. Maybe the trails do end up quieter in future. Who knows.
And people have been driving to the trails in £25K+ vans for a long time, there’s £ about, not for us all sure but generally enough to cover the differences between regular and e-bikes.
Yeah, but most of us started mountain biking when we didn't have that much cash.
I worked all summer to buy my first 'proper' mountain bike at the age of 16. It would have been around £1200 in today's money.
If the mainstream becomes ebikes then a 'proper' entry level bike is going to be closer to 3 times that amount.
Sure, 16 year old me grew up to be able to afford £7k+ bikes if I really wanted to but if I wasn't able to get into the sport at the age of 16 I wouldn't be spending any money at all on the sport at the age of 40.
Maybe they buy an e-bike as an alternative to a car and use it at the weekends as well as for commuting – they can start to look like £3.5k well spent in that case. Maybe hire centres crop up. Maybe the trails do end up quieter in future. Who knows.
It seems to me that there isn't really a route to e-mountain biking that doesn't involve shelling out big bucks up front.
A motor and battery is going to double the price of any bike at a minimum. Not only that, the motor and battery are the most likely parts on the bike to fail, making 2nd hand a huge risk.
Cheap ebikes are going to be like trying to go mountain biking on a BSO. These bikes just aren't designed with trails in mind.
Lots of people on this thread have complained about ebikers evangelising to them why they should buy an ebike, even in the face of them telling them that they don’t want one.
Isn't this just the "preachy vegans" argument in different pants? Loads of people complaining about e-bikers evangelising, but the truth is that the number of evangelistic e-bikers is far, far outstripped by the number of people whining about them.
I'm not 100% behind this @Jameso (I'm not 100% against it either but...):
Having to work at 85% heart rate and sweating isn’t for everybody, it’s not always what you want when cycling even (commuting or errands, countryside leisure riding, etc). It follows that e-bikes overall are a good thing and the boom will come with some influence into MTB.
Random points:
70% of the UK population are overweight or obese. Apart from transforming our food production chain (obeseogenic environment) we still need people to sweat more. The main reason the NHS is dying is chronic disease - which we're desparately trying to find tablets for. But a good diet and excercise would fix it. It's just that most people either can't or won't do that. Ebikes are neutral - it takes people from doing sod all to a little bit more than sod all (because most people don't want to sweat, as you said - so they buy an ebike) - but I'm not going to argue that point. Indisbutably though - if they can replace car journeys then they're a great thing. Cargo bikes etc. Brilliant.
So there's shedloads more people, in a country of 70 million, in "remote" spaces that they never would be in before (because they're too unfit). So, these spaces become less remote, trails get chewed up by heavier bikes and heavier use, there's absolutely increased conflict. These spaces are often ecologically fragile too and with increased use then you get increased ab-use (eg. trails getting built in ancient woodland (which now makes up only about 1% of UK woodland cover)). This isn't necessarily a "good thing". Yes, mental health is helped by being in open spaces - but if you could distill a pill for mental health issues it would be exercise that you'd put in it. And you can get that, and be out in the countryside, without the downsides.
Meh. I do indeed suspect that the majority of mountain bikers of the future will be on ebikes. That is not a good thing IMO. It's especially sad when I see ten year old kids on ebikes. They've no business being on an ebike when they should be learning how to sweat - and yes, I stand by that - see the 70% of people being overweight or obese above.
If they replace other motorised transport I'm 100% behind them. Otherwise their very existence makes me sad for humanity and the way it thinks.
Isn’t this just the “preachy vegans” argument in different pants? Loads of people complaining about e-bikers evangelising, but the truth is that the number of evangelistic e-bikers is far, far outstripped by the number of people whining about them.
I might (alright: do) whine on forums (discussion is the point of a forum after all) - but out on my bike? Not at all.
But if I ride over to the Marin on a Saturday morning there's almost always an ebiker who decides to opine on my "struggles". If I point out that I choose to, they have to start to strike up a conversation about why I'm wrong and that I should stop struggling and get an ebike.
So I think it's the other way round. Forums? Yeah, this is what they're for. Real life? Different experience for me.
I hope that mountain biking remains primarily a non-ebike sport. I think if it becomes primarily an ebike sport, with development of bikes, trails, competition, and infrastructure being focused on the motorised side, then it'll be bad for off-road biking in general for the reasons I've given above.
If it's just focused on ebikes then it becomes a rich person's sport within a generation.
I really think you need to spend some quality time on a good ebike, absolute game changer. You can get the same workout, but cover at least twice the distance. Honestly, I think everyone will be on them in a few years.
If strava is anything to go by I spent over 500 hours riding one, and now haven't ridden one for over 2 years. I was riding one due to disability which hasn't improved (and it's very unlikely it ever will). I initially swapped due to reliability issues, which I expect are less of an issue now but made me stick with non-ebike is that it makes me feel more like I'm winning over the medical condition I have (not to say anyone else is losing in any way, it's a personal thing).
Personally I probably will end up back on an eike when I can't ride without one anymore (realistically either that or unable to ride anything will happen at some point), but other people ride non-ebikes for a similar sort of feeling so I can't see everyone being on an ebike.
Nice meme, shame it's got nothing to do with what the rest of us are talking about at the moment.
Ebikes will make (already have to a point) our passtime a real option for regular folks to try on a whim but without the requirement for any specific fitness or clothing. A bit like a mountain biking equivalent of go ape.
If I was on holiday and there was a trail centre nearby but I didn't have my bike with me, I'd maybe want to hire a bike. Why would I pick a regular bike over an ebike if they had both for hire?
There will always be regular bikes I reckon but once decent ebikes get down to a more accessible pricepoint then I can see them as being the norm.
I’d maybe want to hire a bike. Why would I pick a regular bike over an ebike if they had both for hire?
Is it uplifted ?
Ebikes will make (already have to a point) our passtime a real option for regular folks to try on a whim but without the requirement for any specific fitness or clothing.
Regular folks with a certain amount of disposable income. A level of disposable income that's far above what I and I'd imagine most others on here had when they first got into mountain biking.
I'm more concerned that this remains a sport that kids from relatively modest backgrounds can get into if they really want to rather than one that is primarily focussed on the affluent middle-aged.
@BruceWee really? Most of this thread has been about why eebs are ruining MTB and there have been several posts referencing SS. Incidently, IMO they're not, partly because many of the detractors claim it isn't MTB (so how can it ruin something they claim it's not?) and for many other reasons, including, but not limited to, getting fatties to take some exercise and some has to be better than none...
BruceWee really?
Can you quote someone on this page who mentioned cheating?
I've been mostly talking about my concerns with the cost if mtb becomes primarily an ebike sport. Others have been talking about the problems of evangelic ebikers and whether they are a real thing or not.
Like I said, it's a very nice meme, but did you actually read this page before you posted it?
I didn't realise memes had to be relevant to the page they appear on, sorry. 🙄
Well of course, everyone is free to throw whatever random non-sequitur they like into any forum discussion.
It's just annoying for those of us who are trying to have a conversation.
It’s just annoying for those of us who are trying to have a conversation.
It's less annoying than the poster who keeps banging on about fat people and how that somehow gives him grounds for bitching about what bike someone he doesn't know chooses to ride.
It's just pissing about in the woods. No need to take it so seriously.
I've been mountain biking for over 30 years. If you asked me to describe or define myself, 'Mountain biker' would probably be one of the first things I'd say. I started on a fully rigid steel hardtail and over the years worked up to a nice collection of mid-range bikes, mostly bought on interest free credit. My current love is a 2018 model Orange 4
I'm now touching on 53 years and the accumulated dings are starting to take their toll. Broken leg (same one twice), arm, collar bone, rotator cuff.... A crushed vertebra from a snowboarding accident 7 years ago has left me with chronic back pain and a sensation like someone's twisting a knife in my back whenever I'm on a long grinding climb. Successful cancer treatment two years ago robbed me of my fitness and a recent diagnosis of pulmonary fibrosis means that when I went out for a 7km spin on my Four along the river on Tuesday night, I very nearly passed out on one of the wee climbs because my lungs are so shredded.
I've had a Spesh Levo for the last 18 months and it allows me to keep on riding. It allows me to keep on being a 'mountain biker'. I'm the only e-bike rider in my group of regular riding friends and no-one is abusive (in a nasty way), no-one rolls their eyes when they see me rock up on Lemmy. Everyone is just glad to see me out on a bike. I've never preached to people on the trails, or looked down on them for riding a regular bike and likewise, I've never encountered animosity from e-bikers or regular bikers targeting the bike I'm riding.
I'm genuinely bemused by this thread, to me the e-bike is a way to prolong my mountain biking life because there's going to come a day when I won't be fit/well enough to ride any sort of bike. Am I cheating? Why do you care? I don't care what bikes my mates ride, just as I don't care about my next door neighbours car...it's a red one by the way. What I do care about is being able to get to the top of Dumyat on a sunny summer's evening with my mates and finish the descent with a pint and a blether. Lemmy's going to allow me to continue doing that for a lot longer than I'd be able to without him and if that makes you despise me as an 'e-biker' then I'm sorry, but also very glad I don't know you.
C. xx
I worked all summer to buy my first ‘proper’ mountain bike at the age of 16. It would have been around £1200 in today’s money.
If the mainstream becomes ebikes then a ‘proper’ entry level bike is going to be closer to 3 times that amount.
Same here, £500 bike then, £1200 now. I expect 14-16 year olds will get into MTB the same way for a long time yet. They might move onto a SH E-MTB after that. Others will come into MTB in later life and there I don't think the cost increase will have much effect on take-up, it's a value/fun for money thing as much as cost.
Arguably the expectations or the average bike of a teenager newb are a lot higher now already, the number of smart FSers I see young riders on. They generally get into DH/enduro/jump bikes not the general XC I was into as a teenager and there the e/non-e thing matters less.
Anyway, I don't see the shift to e-MTB endagering participation overall. I could be wrong on the shift to e-bikes and take-up but the importance of e- to getting into bikes and the added cost itself doesn't seem to be that significant.
It’s less annoying than the poster who keeps banging on about fat people
I did a ctrl-f for 'fat' and the only mentions I could find on this page were by doomaniac and you. Perhaps having civilised discussion has caused extreme views to soften or at least not be aired so aggressively.
I’ve had a Spesh Levo for the last 18 months and it allows me to keep on riding. It allows me to keep on being a ‘mountain biker’. I’m the only e-bike rider in my group of regular riding friends and no-one is abusive (in a nasty way), no-one rolls their eyes when they see me rock up on Lemmy. Everyone is just glad to see me out on a bike. I’ve never preached to people on the trails, or looked down on them for riding a regular bike and likewise, I’ve never encountered animosity from e-bikers or regular bikers targeting the bike I’m riding.
I think that's awesome and if you had to write up a use case for ebikes then this would be part of it.
What concerns me is the people saying 'Soon mountain biking will be ebiking' or 'we'll all be riding ebikes'.
Like I said earlier, I hope mountain biking stays primarily a non-ebike sport. I think that's vital for mountain biking to stay affordable for the majority of people and to stop it becoming an exclusively well off people's past time.
Saying that, ebikes are obviously really important for keeping people active who might not otherwise be active and, ironically enough given the original subject of this thread, for allowing groups of mixed abilities to ride together.
This is going to sound really snobby and wrong but here goes anyway. I think people really should have some sort of 'excuse' to ride an ebike.
Mountain biking is going to evolve into whatever it's going to evolve into but I just hope it stays mainly non-electric.
70% of the UK population are overweight or obese.
Previously on STW...
Without ebikes they’d be sat at home, being fat, in front of their xboxes. And that’s where they should be.
I can't begin to imagine why we might have an obesity problem, what with all the positive encouragement that overweight people get from everyone else.
---
if I ride over to the Marin on a Saturday morning there’s almost always an ebiker who decides to opine on my “struggles”.
"Almost always"? Really? A different one each time, or the same arsehole every week?
I hope that mountain biking remains primarily a non-ebike sport.
I hope that mountain biking remains primarily a non-sport. 😁
I hope that mountain biking remains primarily a non-sport. 😁
Mountain biking is one of the few sports out there. Everything else is just games 🙂
If they replace other motorised transport I’m 100% behind them. Otherwise their very existence makes me sad for humanity and the way it thinks.
I don't disagree entirely, labour-saving devices etc, car use, call me Amish beyond my bike choice but I think we do consume too much and do too little. Maybe I just don't bother about e-MTBs and see them as (to some extent) a symptom of some bigger things in society that I can't really do a lot about outside my own circle of influence. Every e-bike out there offers some hope imo. Some more than others, yes.
Mountain biking is one of the few sports out there. Everything else is just games
Steve McQueen lives! 😀
Been watching this thread with interest. Non-ebike rider, non of my riding mates have them so there's no specific push to need to get one to keep up with the group I couldn't care less if the group was mixed so long as everyone got along with the pace of the slowest member. I also still ride a fair bit of lift assisted terrain through the year and would not want to ride and ebike for that. If I had the cash and space I'd have one alongside my regular bike as the attraction for getting in solo laps quickly is definitely big, but for me I have one mtb and that won't be changing (cash, space and marriage).
Do I see one in my future, most likely yes (probably when the rest of the group end up going that way, non of us are getting any younger and most of us ride other types of bikes for fitness, mountain biking for me is about the fun), but I feel it's a while away yet and I'm hoping the tech will improve to bring us lighter and less ugly looking bikes (I think you're barking up the wrong tree to think costs will come down). Cost is a big barrier to entry for me, I really think with the amount that can go wrong and the fast pace of development buying new is best, but I've usually selectively bought/built bikes (last one aside) SH to get value.
I think the crux of the matter here is don't break rule 1 - I do feel that this tends to lead to a categorisation of certain groups of people. Sadly I seem to come across more ebikers that tend to break it than regular bike riders (I've also met some great ones who've kindly let em have a go on their bikes to see what all the fuss is about), for example being buzzed past on singletrack whilst trying to guide my youngest in front of me, main offenders do tend to fit a common profile.
Oh and finally, the use of the term acoustic, analogue, flintstone, neeb, etc to describe a regular bike can absolutely get in the sea! Bike and e-Bike please.
I did a ctrl-f for ‘fat’ and the only mentions I could find on this page were by doomaniac and you.
Talk about nit picking. 😂
70% of the UK population are overweight or obese.
So that's not talking about fat people then...
I also was unaware that when a topic started a new page everything that had previously been said just kind of dissapeared and didn't come into the discussion.
I also was unaware that when a topic started a new page everything that had previously been said just kind of dissapeared and didn’t come into the discussion.
I think it's more of a courtesy thing. If you're going to post something relating to comments made on the previous page then at least quote what you're referring to.
If you just post without a quote it seems like you're replying to the people who have posted directly before you.
If what you post has nothing to do with what's being talked about it just looks like you're trying to wind people up.
@brucewee I should have added that I'm totally with you on the cost barriers in bikes generally. I've never been that interested in the range-topper stuff that a lot of brands do. It's not that difficult to make a great bike if you have a big spec budget. Not so easy to make a great bike for an experienced rider at £500-1200. The bikes I've been most proud of professionally have all been max ride quality at min cost, all very much entry to mid range.
Oh yeah.. Anyone who calls their bike Lemmy is alright by me 🤘
Mountain biking is going to evolve into whatever it’s going to evolve into but I just hope it stays mainly non-electric.
Here's the thing that maybe explains why IDGAS what comes of 'mountain biking' in that way, as suprising as that may sound - I can't even define mountain biking and I don't know if it's what I do. MTB could become E-MTB in the mainstream and I'll do what I still do, or I might join them one day. I don't call myself a 'mountain biker', it's not my identity. I'm with SS Stu, it's pissing about in the woods on a bike of some sorts and I do plenty of that, plenty of riding on or off-road in big circles. Call it what you will.
I think it’s more of a courtesy thing. If you’re going to post something relating to comments made on the previous page then at least quote what you’re referring to.
If you just post without a quote it seems like you’re replying to the people who have posted directly before you.
If what you post has nothing to do with what’s being talked about it just looks like you’re trying to wind people up.
More nit picking then as expected.
It was quite obvious that he was posting about fat people and also on the same page...
He also has form for banging on about the same thing time and again.
More nit picking then as expected.
It was quite obvious that he was posting about fat people and also on the same page…
Honestly, you've lost me now.
I thought we were having an interesting conversation about several different concerns we might have about ebikes. It looked like someone dropped into the middle of the conversation dismissing all our points with a throwaway joke.
If it wasn't directed at me and others in the thread then I'm sorry for making a snarky comment about it.
I'll leave you and your selective quoting to it Bruce.
I've got some paint to watch drying.
I'm pretty sure Stu is referring to ChevyChase who jumps at every opportunity to be dismissive of eBikes.
The meme I posted was supposed to be lighthearted, but oh well.
Here’s the thing that maybe explains why IDGAS what comes of ‘mountain biking’ in that way, as suprising as that may sound – I can’t even define mountain biking and I don’t know if it’s what I do. MTB could become E-MTB in the mainstream and I’ll do what I still do, or I might join them one day. I don’t call myself a ‘mountain biker’, it’s not my identity. I’m with SS Stu, it’s pissing about in the woods on a bike of some sorts and I do plenty of that, plenty of riding on or off-road in big circles. Call it what you will.
I get what you're saying but I feel like I'm part of a community of folk who share the same interest.
Obviously the world isn't static but kids and young folk being able to go play in the woods on bikes is important. Like it or not, it's easier to get your parents to help you out with the costs if you're doing a 'proper sport', even if that sport is just seeing who can land the biggest jump with no landing transition without giving yourself concussion.
If 'proper' mountain biking starts to be seen as something you can only do if you've got a £3k+ entry level ebike then I worry that many parents won't be prepared to support their kids if they show an interest in mountain biking.
I do feel some responsibility to leave the sport in good shape for the next generation, partly so that I can still buy decent kit in 20 years, but also so that people can continue to have the same experiences I've had.
They’ve no business being on an ebike when they should be learning how to sweat – and yes, I stand by that – see the 70% of people being overweight or obese above.
This all reminds me a bit of the 'downhill / full-sus' debates of the early/mid 90's MTB press. Downhill was 'survival of the fattest', suspension was for drooling incompetents who couldn't handle a bike, Steve Peat could win the NPS on a fully rigid Kona, so why did YOU need suspension, and obviously anyone who could afford a £2,000 full sus bike was a perfumed yuppie who should stay in the stockbroker belt where he or she belonged.
And we all saw how that debate faded away in the end...
I really can't see eBikes becoming the norm in the foreseeable future. There needs to be a huge leap in tech that allows costs to come down before that's even possible, never mind likely.
I really can’t see eBikes becoming the norm in the foreseeable future. There needs to be a huge leap in tech that allows costs to come down before that’s even possible, never mind likely.
I guess my biggest worry is that manufacturers are going to turn around one year and go, 'We've decided ebikes are the future' and over the course of the next few years a plethora of new ebike specific standards are introduced (that don't work with non-ebikes, 1.8" SuperTaper steerer tubes, anyone?) and one day we find non-ebikes have gone the same way as 26" wheels.
Sure, you can still buy them but all the high end stuff is reserved for ebikes.
I can't see it myself; most the manufacturers have bikes that are as, or even more, expensive than their top tier eBikes so there's clearly more profit to be made in those. I wonder what percentage of sales and turnover eBikes are for the likes of Trek, Spesh, Giant, etc.
Take that 70% of the population are overwieght or obese quote and put it in it's context (other than it being 100% factual). The NHS is on its arse because of that - so I'm not going to apologise for talking about health and the UK population when it comes to e-bikes. As much as ebikers would like to divorce themselves from that part of the conversation.
Ebikes allow unhealthy people to do stuff previously only healthy people would do. This is NOT an advancement IMO, for the reasons I've given.
Anyone with a structural disability is obviously not included.
70% of the population are overwieght or obese
And I bet about 90% of those people have no interest in riding a mountainbike of any kind any way so it's pretty irrelevant.
…TO buy soemthing in Eeb and of the spec/type i want i’m guessing i’m in the £7000 bracket.
But as much as the money bothers me, the warranty/motor/battery/computer stuff worries me more. If my Slayer/GT/141 goes wrong, it’s invariably something i can fix, at home with some tools and a bit of time…. but if it’s an Eeb, i could be without it for weeks, months even and even then, only if under warranty and covered… So… i’m struggling with the whole idea.
this is where i am. they are too expensive and will always be more expensive than a bike without a motor. they will never be as reliable and they will always be more difficult to fix. not to mention that they contain more parts that take more energy to produce and that are less recyclable than a metal bike.
and no matter which way you cut it, they do appeal (though not exclusively) to a different demographic than bicycles and this demographic brings a different set of values to the trails (though all of them)
additionally, i don’t believe that e-bikes will get people out of their cars because e-bikes aren’t warm or dry or as safe.
do i hate e-bikes/ebikers. no. i’m not sure i’d want to go on a group ride with them, unless it was a group of close friends where the occasion was more social.
will i get one? possibly. that said, i’m in my 50’s and i see people with at least 10 years on me riding bikes in the woods and a couple of guys so old that it is a bit unnerving. if i can stay healthy, i’ll still be able to ride.
i’m also wondering if the price rises that we see in mountain bikes aren’t partly due to covering the costs of developing e-bikes.
and finally, and slightly off topic, ebike racing. why? get a ****ing motorbike. which i’d be more likely to do than get an ebike at this point in time.
And I bet about 95% of those people have no interest in riding a mountainbike of any kind any way so it’s pretty irrelevant.
Sadly, a member of the 5% here.
Can you quote someone on this page who mentioned cheating?
It was a few pages back, I replied to it.
I get what you’re saying but I feel like I’m part of a community of folk who share the same interest.
Same here? : )
About entry cost, I don't think it stops anyone. I rode the sh** out of a £150 Raleigh for a year and a half inc 2 broken forks before I got a £500 Marin. Some mates had better bikes by then, some moved onto other things, some of us stuck with it. Would be different if some had e-bikes and others didn't but still, we navigate that kind of stuff all the time. All in all it was nothing to do with the value of the bikes and all to do with having mates to ride with, living within 6 miles of some good trails (we rode there and back mostly) and parents who'd give us lifts to the occasional xc race.
Start on a £400 Carerra, move onto whatever you like. If you get into it the bike isn't the decider in all this.
No @singlespeedstu - not "irrelevant", the full quote, in context is:
70% of the UK population are overweight or obese. Apart from transforming our food production chain (obeseogenic environment) we still need people to sweat more. The main reason the NHS is dying is chronic disease – which we’re desparately trying to find tablets for. But a good diet and excercise would fix it. It’s just that most people either can’t or won’t do that. Ebikes are neutral – it takes people from doing sod all to a little bit more than sod all
Relevant. Rare earth mining for batteries, high cost barrier for entry, increased trail erosion and conflict, marginal health benefits for the majority at best.
I get people love 'em. I think they may be dominant in the future. I stand by that not being a good thing overall - just another symptom of instant-pleasure easy-consumption society. They're the McDonalds of bikes. And considering McDonalds admitted in court in the 1980's that their burgers are 5% fecal matter I consider that an apt description.
🙂
one day we find non-ebikes have gone the same way as 26″ wheels.
Sure, you can still buy them but all the high end stuff is reserved for ebikes.
That's all a bit 'sky falling in'. They may not be the dominant high-end models in big brand line-ups but you'll always have smaller companies making lower-tech or lower cost of market entry frames and bikes that aren't powered. And XC race bikes + kit will be always be a strong (if smaller one day) market in Europe, fast riders with style like Nino Shurter and Jolanda Neff will inspire more riders for a while yet.
Even if all gears and wheels were e-bike spec I'd be ok with that, sounds like solid durable kit for my non-e bike..
Chevy
Of all the things to blame for the Ill health of some people I think ebike rank pretty much near the bottom.
additionally, i don’t believe that e-bikes will get people out of their cars because e-bikes aren’t warm or dry or as safe.
The general reaction from a non-rider who tries one could undermine your take there, or change your mind. I believe the majority of people can enjoy them and need to find a bit of fresh air fun in life. Making the pleasure of riding a bike less effort (or simply possible) on the hills is the game-changer there.
The cost of entry (£1200+ let's say, an entry price city e-bike) and motivation to make the initial change against life's inertia is the main barrier. The rest is infrastructure and car culture being against them in the UK. Weather rarely comes up - they're assuming they'd use the car/train etc then.
That’s all a bit ‘sky falling in’.
I hope so.
On the other hand, we've seen what happens when Giant and Specialized decide to move in the same direction. I remember reading Cy Cotic's account of having to scramble to get 650b bikes designed and built because if they ended up carrying on with 26" for the coming year they would end up with a years worth of stock that they simply couldn't shift.
With the eXC World Champs (an absolute joke, btw) and e-enduro, the SuperTaper ebike standard, I worry that the pieces are being moved into place.
Hopefully I'm just paranoid.
@singlespeedstu:
Of all the things to blame for the Ill health of some people I think ebike rank pretty much near the bottom.
I'm not blaming them for ill health. I'm saying they're not much of a help and come at a cost. The post and reasoning is pretty clear.
But for car-replacement / commuting etc. That's a benefit that can't be ignored.
Yes your previous post have been pretty clear that you think some people shouldn't be where they are.
Comparing ebikes to McDonald's is a pretty large leap of imagination.
It's seems beyond your comprehension that people ride for different reasons and it's really no one else's business how the choose to do it.
it’s really no one else’s business how the choose to do it
I get your butthurt about my opinion. But this is weak - because other people do have business in things that affect them. It's why we don't allow full-blown motorbikes on trails.
I concede that nothing is going to happen with ebikes, that they're going to be ubiquitous despite my opinions - but I don't really care if you don't like my opinion, I'm going to voice it, in the same way that you'll support ebikes.
A good analogue is AI - this ChatGPT thang and their ilk. It won't be long before music is made by machines - and consumers of that music won't care a jot. Machines are completely capable of writing and composing really good music - and the vast majority of consumers won't care. Musicians will tho (before they get told that anyone who can run an AI script to create music means they're a musician and have just as much a right to call themselves a musician as someone who's struggled to actually learn an instrument).
Why do you think I'm butthurt?
I ride all kind of bikes but just think it's a bit sad that some people think they have more of a right to be on a trail than others.
Must be pretty miserable for you being bothered by what others are doing.
You're spoiling your own day more than theirs.
I remember reading Cy Cotic’s account of having to scramble to get 650b bikes designed and built because if they ended up carrying on with 26″ for the coming year they would end up with a years worth of stock that they simply couldn’t shift.
Definitely not meant as a critique of Cotic from me here, but that's not something to blame big brands for. 650B was bubbling under the surface for a good few years with small brands before the tyre choices increased, big brands got onto it and the change really happened. A small brand has to be on top of the trends and be ready, to make a call on how early to move or even to kick-start the bandwagon. Big brands tend to jump on once it's all rolling and help accelerate it via their influence (weight).
eXC World Champs (an absolute joke, btw) and e-enduro
Gotta race bikes to sell them, says an industry that's pretty much a one-trick pony when it comes to marketing.
the SuperTaper ebike standard
Gotta carry on ignoring what a poor design the single-crown fork is as bikes get heavier and longer travel. Just use dual crowns... Oh, you can't - the downtube is now >100mm wide and you're all selling short offsets as the new thing so it won't all fit and still let you steer more than about 30 degrees. 1.8" lowers it is then... Luckily it'll be easy for a fork manufacturer to offer the same fork with a 1.5 crown or use a larger lower bearing / reducer for a frame.
I digress into details and let's not add standards angst to this one, the standards cycle will happen if you want the latest bike tech in any type of bike. We can't blame e-bikes : )
Jesus! It’s still going. Can we just agree on one thing, they look a bit shit don’t they. Like pregnant fish or a Fisher Price bike. My main gripe with them is still that they **** the planet more than normal bikes and that genuinely makes me a bit sad. People choose extra planet ****ing over putting a bit more effort in. Because let’s be clear the vast majority of folk won’t be riding with assist off at any point.
Just my opinion though no hatred. Just a little bit depressed by it.
chevychase
Free Member
@singlespeedstu and @cougarTake that 70% of the population are overwieght or obese quote and put it in it’s context (other than it being 100% factual). The NHS is on its arse because of that
The NHS is on its arse for many reasons. "Fat people" is surely at least third behind an increasingly aging population and Tory governance (though I'm guessing as much as you are).
Ebikes allow unhealthy people to do stuff previously only healthy people would do.
Yeah but, the difference is that you seem to think that this is a bad thing.
You're complaining about the strain on the NHS but you said yourself that you think the fatties should stay at home where they belong. You can't simultaneously whine about a health problem and also whine about a potential means to help tackle that problem. Pick one.
If you saw a 20-stone woman on an e-bike ride past you, what would you think? Would you call out to her?
Can we just agree on one thing, they look a bit shit don’t they.
That one Paddy was on earlier looked mint, I thought. I was pleasantly surprised.
Who’s Paddy? I’ve still not seen one that has made me go “Ooh” then again there’s only about three full sus bikes I like the look of 😂
It would probably be easier for many 'seasoned' MTBers, if these companies sold Frame/Battery/Motor, allowing you to build your own off the existing bike(s) they have. I've certainly got enough parts to build a 2nd if such was available.
they look a bit shit don’t they
That's fair, but they are getting better looking all the time.
Charging both batteries for tomorrows ride.
Hoping the antique bike riders won't be clogging the trails as I turbo it uphill multiple times
No real hate to them, but they are a bit of a liability in this day and age.
I think Chevy and Davey should head out for a ride together.
1 out of 10 for effort. On your post and your bike that is 😉
FFS Doom - you post too fast 😃
The YT Decoy looks ok IMO
There ain't an ebike yet that isn't dog ugly IMO 🙂
That YT looks like a pregnant fish and why is the BB area melted? Downtube is HUGE too.
There ain’t an ebike yet that isn’t dog ugly IMO 🙂
I've got a hunch you ain't no oil painting either sweetheart 😘
😉
What I can't get my head around from this thread, regardless of whether you love, hate, or are indifferent about ebikes, is that somehow an overweight guy riding an ebike can be construed as being no better than said overweight guy sitting on the sofa.
Madness
Oh that and the fact that on here of all places, it seems fairly acceptable to be derogatory about someone because of their weight
I think Chevy and Davey should head out for a ride together.
dave and chevy sound about as bad as each other.
Just ride your ****ing bike whatever it is.