[Closed] e-scooters - 10th May

I like using the Voi scooters in Bristol - other then them being a bit shonky in terms of throttle control. Most of the Voi ones are ridden sensibly - with a few people just going nuts on them and ignoring the rules. That’s said the private e-scooters seem to have a higher proportion of nutcases/ idiots on them.

Voi you have to put in your driving licence details and link a card to it for payment so it feels like there could be some comeback if you act like a tw*t on one.

Feel like the private ones haven’t got that comeback as such so it could be a free for all. Although I guess no different to riding a bike on the road / like an idiot over pavements and through parks in reality.

They're so widespread and any prohibition isn't even attempted to be enforced these days, you see them everywhere these days, ridden by children to school, to middle aged folk going into town, they're annoying at times, but i find it hard to get upset about them being used as they're usually just folk getting from A to B with minimal fuss.

Interesting that the specifications listed above don't include the necessity to be stood up and not seated, so they're including higher power and not pedal assist e-bikes too.

They’re so widespread and any prohibition isn’t even attempted to be enforced these days

so they’re including higher power and not pedal assist e-bikes too.

Max speed of 15.5mph make that irrelevant, plus a lot of the bigger ones are north of 55kg.

Essentially it seems to remove the need for regular, currently legal, ebikes to be pedal assisted.

I would need one of these.
Whoo makes them?

Doesn't cover e-skateboards and Onewheels

I test rode a few of these at the fully charged show last week Up to 30mph - loads of fun, way funner than a scooter and with a  range of 20 miles, very practical for commuting etc. Plus they can be slipped under a desk.

But at around 2k they are a big investment and you wouldn't want them confiscated......

its about time they set a framework for the legal use of privately owned e scooters, they'd be such a benefit to a lot of people.

They're already legal in many european countries

its a good start.

Ive got no interest in them myself, and tbh they seem pretty dangerous for the riders, but anything that facilitates getting people out of 2T boxes for the suburban journeys gets my vote, and the more the streets are legally clogged up with these things (as well as bikes of all shapes and sizes) the more normalised it becomes and the more people see it as a good option and leave their cars at home.

I would need one of these.
Whoo makes them?

Thats pretty cool, much less likely to go over the bars if you hit a speed bump. If it was better designed you could have some not insignificant storage between your feet too, Certainly enough for a pannier bag, or a bit of shopping. Thats what most of this stuff is missing in my view, a bit of cargo space.

I could design somthing like that within those new rules.....

Does anyone have links to the legislation change?

Did they say if they have to go on the road or are they ok on cycle paths?

Have an electric motor with a maximum continuous power rating of 500W
Have a maximum speed of 15.5mph

though, where are they proposing these things are used. that doesnt seem like enough poke/top speed to ride on the road really, but too much for the pavements?

I kinda think there should be a speed limit on cycle paths.
Not because people go to fast, but to justify people using the road when they want to go a bit quicker than an amble, and reduce the "get on the cycle path".

Can't see anything online about a proposed review today, other than a few articles from 2 weeks ago saying that Grant Shapps hinting that legislation could be included in today's Queen's Speech. Such as this BBC link but nothing much announced since

As recently as yesterday there was an article on the BBC news website about them, and no mention of expected legislative changes

BBC News Petition Article

Edit- and it looks to have not been included in today's Queen's (son's) Speech. So I reckon that it was just a bit of marketing by the source of OP's post targeted to get people to buy an escooter in early anticipation of a law change.

I was overtaken by one going up a big hill near me on my way home a couple of days ago - it was either hire or fitted the requirements outlined above, as it wasn't over 15mph.

It looked lethal, every pothole avoidance was a wobble/swerve into the traffic from the cycle lane, forcing drivers to slam on so they didn't plough into them.

It looked lethal, every pothole avoidance was a wobble/swerve into the traffic from the cycle lane, forcing drivers to slam on so they didn’t plough into them.

they need to learn the escooter bunny hop

they need to learn the escooter bunny hop

Given the level of weeble they had on, that'd result in me having to bunnyhop them!

To allow more power than an ebike seems illogical. I would expect the same max power as an ebike but possibly a slightly lower top speed. I think some of the hire ones are set at 12.5 mph.
Ebikes are generally much safer, better brakes, better control, etc. Personally from the way I've seem most of them used explicitly not allowing them and enforcing more generally seems sensible, and I know others don't agree.
I think that the trials have shown that they displace mainly walking journeys so the effect of traffic volumes is likely low.
If they are made legal then I guess it would be road and cycle path use only.
Yes they are significantly more dangerous than a bike hence my reasoning that I see no reason to lift the ban.

Essentially it seems to remove the need for regular, currently legal, ebikes to be pedal assisted.

That was my thought. Ebikes can go faster than 15.5mph if pedalled, though. Also seems odd that the specification doesn't mention brakes.

To allow more power than an ebike seems illogical. I would expect the same max power as an ebike but possibly a slightly lower top speed. I think some of the hire ones are set at 12.5 mph.
Ebikes are generally much safer, better brakes, better control, etc. Personally from the way I’ve seem most of them used explicitly not allowing them and enforcing more generally seems sensible, and I know others don’t agree.
I think that the trials have shown that they displace mainly walking journeys so the effect of traffic volumes is likely low.
If they are made legal then I guess it would be road and cycle path use only.
Yes they are significantly more dangerous than a bike hence my reasoning that I see no reason to lift the ban.

if the top speed is capped as the same as an ebike then how much effect does the added power have? on an ebike, the rider adds power, I imagine even the most unfit incompetent rider could manage a few second bust of a couple of hundred watts to get up to speed.

Are the trials where walking journeys were replaced based on public hire in city centres? I could imagine private hire ones being different. especially folding ones where someone might be doing scooter-train-scooter rather than a car for example.

Merely observing those local to me, my unscientific observation is they are replacing poorly maintained and even more poorly ridden BSOs for the most part. (part of that will be the current illegal riding demographic).

Maybe it isnt 1 less car, but its one less "bloody cyclist" wobbling, lightless red light jumpers that gives us "proper" cyclists a bad name.

The above said slightly in jest.

I think that the trials have shown that they displace mainly walking journeys so the effect of traffic volumes is likely low.

I don't believe this at all

I live in a medium sized town (letchworth gc) and there are an awful lot of 0.5-3mile journeys - including by myself - made by car.

Slow start to a modal shift, hopefully. Maybe by 20 years time? Hopefully...

I think that the trials have shown that they displace mainly walking journeys so the effect of traffic volumes is likely low.

Maybe now, from people who already own cars and have driving licenses. But it might delay young people from becoming drivers and buying cars?

slowol
Full Member
To allow more power than an ebike seems illogical. I would expect the same max power as an ebike but possibly a slightly lower top speed. I think some of the hire ones are set at 12.5 mph.

The power level is a bit of a misnomer tbh, most ebikes hit a lot more than 250w. some hitting up to 700w peak and no doubt beyond. The 250w continuous rating is really just an arbitrary rating, it's not a limit. What it means is that the motor can run at 250w without heating up. It's more a safety thing than anything else I think, or at least that's how it was supposed to be intended, but it's not how most people read it. A motor will go as fast as the volts and amps you put through it till it burns out.

I wonder how this is going down on "motorist" social media

molgrips
Full Member
I think that the trials have shown that they displace mainly walking journeys so the effect of traffic volumes is likely low.

Maybe now, from people who already own cars and have driving licenses. But it might delay young people from becoming drivers and buying cars?

Yeah these things are unlikely to entice existing car users out of their cars, if there is going to be a change, it's a generational change you are looking at.

Tbh I’ve used they Voi scooters to avoid the car to the pub (had to get Uber home) or into the centre of Bristol on a night out. Also used it to go to work a few times.

I think they could get a lot of bigger traffic off the road for commuting purposes for people with shorter commutes. End to end in Bristol it was quicker than driving in and parking somewhere free outside the centre and walking in. Also half the time the bus takes to get into town and you aren’t tied to bus timetables.

If there’s some way to get them used mostly sensibly it makes a lot of sense. Would be better if they did 20mph so you feel less of a slow target to car drivers though.

I think that the trials have shown that they displace mainly walking journeys so the effect of traffic volumes is likely low.

A trial is just that. I don't live in a town that had a trial so had no option to trial one even if I wanted to.
I would never hire one today but if they were made legal would consider buying one and instead of driving down to shop (2 miles each way) I would use my eScooter. Instead of driving to work I would get the bus and then scoot the final 3 miles into work.

Yes I could do that on a bike but I already ride my bike enough for solely pleasure activity.

The power level is a bit of a misnomer tbh, most ebikes hit a lot more than 250w. some hitting up to 700w peak and no doubt beyond. The 250w continuous rating is really just an arbitrary rating, it’s not a limit. What it means is that the motor can run at 250w without heating up. It’s more a safety thing than anything else I think, or at least that’s how it was supposed to be intended, but it’s not how most people read it. A motor will go as fast as the volts and amps you put through it till it burns out.

I was intrigued by your comment @seosamh77, and it caused me to look into this in somewhat pointless depth (so apologies peeps you are getting the double whammy of my legal and technical geekery here). The Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles (Amendment) Regulations 2015 define "maximum continuous power" with reference to Regulation (EU) No 168/2013, which in turn refers to "Regulation No 85 of the Economic Commission for Europe of the United Nations (UN/ECE) — Uniform provisions concerning the approval of internal combustion engines or electric drive trains intended for the propulsion of motor vehicles of categories M and N with regard to the measurement of net power and the maximum 30 minutes power of electric drive trains" (Link to the version in the OJ). This specifies the following test for continuous power:

5.3.2.
Determination of the maximum 30 minutes power
5.3.2.1.
The motor and its entire equipment assembly must be conditioned at a temperature of 25 °C ± 5 °C for a minimum of four hours.
5.3.2.2.
The electric drive train shall run at the bench at a power which is the best estimate of the manufacturer for the maximum 30 minutes power. The speed must be in a speed range, which the net power is greater than 90 % of the maximum power as measured in paragraph 5.3.1. This speed shall be recommended by the manufacturer.
5.3.2.3.
Speed and power shall be recorded. The power must be in a range of ± 5 % of the power value at the start of the test. The maximum 30 minutes power is the average of the power within the 30 minutes period.

The UN/ECE Regulations are all about ensuring power is at least the manufacturers quoted figure, and heat dissipation (or lack of it) could be what limits the power thus measured, and thus what manufacturers can state that to be. But the EAPC Regs just refer to the testing method, not the whole thing, and are not interested in ensuring the quoted power is available, but in ensuring that the achievable power is below a maximum. As you can see, this method is unsuitable for doing that without some heavy interpretation (for example ignoring the manufacturers best estimate bit and running it on full power). In fact the definition of "net power" also in the UNECE Regulation appears more appropriate.

This is bizarre and I feel I must be missing something, I can't see how that method of measurement can be useful, or is in practice used.

@greystoke, the actual definition of maximum 30 minutes power is in paragraph 2.4 - I think it's slightly more informative than the testing method you've quoted. The whole of that Regulation reads as if it's been translated from another language by somebody who had no idea what it was about. It's clearly being used outside its original scope, being for motor vehicles in classes M and N:
<ul class="i8Z77e">
<li class="TrT0Xe">

Category M: used for the carriage of passengers. Category M1: no more than eight seats in addition to the driver seat (mainly, cars) ...

<li class="TrT0Xe">

Category N: used for the carriage of goods (trucks): Category N1: having a maximum mass not exceeding 3.5 tonnes (7,700 lb)

Current law (linky)
They are lawful in some trials, but only if they're rented under that scheme
If they were mentioned in the Queen's Speech then that's usually proposed legislation rather than a change today

if the top speed is capped as the same as an ebike then how much effect does the added power have?

The bigger a battery and higher power motor(s), with a speed cap means the range gets extended. There’s an amazing escooter called a Wolf King. It’s full suspension, with inverted front forks and a coil-over shock on the rear, with several inches of travel, hydraulic discs at each end with ABS on the more expensive model, twin multi-LED headlights, brake and turn indicator lights,and weighs around 115 lb. It’ll top out at around 100kph!
However, if the speed is kept to a reasonable level like 15-20mph, which is what I’d be happy with, it’ll get around 75 miles out of a single charge, which is remarkable.

https://kaabouk.com/products/kaabo-wolf-king?variant=39260185362513

Regarding the scooters in Bristol and Bath, I’ve been in both cities at night recently for gigs, and one thing I did wonder, how are they charged? They just get parked up and left, often in little groups, but there doesn’t seem to be any means of charging them, although obviously they must get charged.

The other thing I really noticed, was the difference between the scooter riders and all of the cyclists I saw - all of the scooters had lights on, whereas not a single bike, out of the dozen or so I saw each evening in Bristol, had any lights at all. And frequently the riders all had dark clothing on.

Any cyclists who want to criticise scooter riders should look to themselves for stupid, irresponsible behaviour before pointing to other road users.

Given the state of our roads, these will keep A&E busy, and dentists. Great idea, but our infrastructure is crap.

Intersting Grey(s), I have to ask though, does that all agree with my assessment? (My legalese ain't great! :lol:) I just know that most electric bikes these days come with battery packs that are capable for hitting somewhere in the region of 540w as most are around 15amps x 36v, which will run for 1 hour at 540w. (belting most ebikes about for an hour at full power can and will run down the battery to zero in that hour, so it's obvious it is possible for most bikes to run at peak for the hour.)

Makes a bit of a mockery of the whole 250w thing. I think the industry knows this, that's why you don't really see those numbers advertised and instead they all prefer to show the torque in nm. and just stick to watt hours for the battery

My argument would be what's to stop manufacturers just labelling a motor capable of passing say a 500w continuous as a 250w motor? This will easily pass the 250w continuous test. I'm willing to bet most motors in ebikes can surpass the 250w test despite being labeled as 250w continuous.

Just seems to me the whole 250w continuous thing is a bit of a silly designation, unless it is intended as a minimum safety requirement, which is where it would make sense to me..

If you really want to limit the speed and power of ebikes you do this via mph/kph limits and through voltage and amp limits. Those are the numbers that people should focus on. We know there's a speed limit of 15.5mph, and I think 36v's is a limit in legislation, i'm sure I've seen that somewhere, but I've never noticed an amp limit? Anyone ever seen that? I've always wondered what's stop them sticking in a 36v 30amp battery? Which would give a peak power of 1080w. (more than likely cause all the motors are only really rated to 5/6/700 continuous would be my guess.)

As an aside volts are also variable in a battery, a 36v battery will actually charge up to about 41v and drain down to about 32v over a cycle(if I remember right, I might be slightly out there), so the power delivered is variable.

ie, so the peak power a 36v x 15a battery actually can deliver to a motor varies from 615 watts to 480 watts over a cycle.

If 250w was an actual limit, we wouldn't really see or need batteries bigger than 36v x 6/7/8 amps.

Regarding charging, the hire ones in Cheltenham (Zwings) have people that go around and swap the batteries out. Not sure how efficient a process that is, as I don't think they have any way of letting the company know when they're low and need changing.

maybe the next generation will to be able to self drive back to a charging station . . .

About time. It's a piss-take that trundling along a quiet cycle path on an e-scooter at the moment attracts a higher punishment than ploughing through a pedestrian in your car.

If insurance is an issue then just stick an additional tax on new purchases which contributes to something like the uninsured drivers fund. But ultimately I'd rather be run over by an e-scooter without insurance than a Tesla.

Any cyclists who want to criticise scooter riders should look to themselves for stupid, irresponsible behaviour before pointing to other road users.

Yep looked at myself and no issues present so I’ll crack on, scooter riders act like dicks in London, the scooters are unsuitable for the roads and a menace on pavements. Carrying young kids on the school run also seems to be a thing now.
As a cyclist they are just another pointless hazard on the road, up there with chipped ebike deliveroo riders. I’d be quite happy if they were all crushed, more so as London has good public transportation and various bike hire schemes.

peekay
Full Member
Does anyone have links to the legislation change?

I don't think there is a draft bill as yet, but this is a summary of proposals:

https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/queens-speech-2022-transport/#heading-12

They’re so widespread and any prohibition isn’t even attempted to be enforced these days

zilog

that’s not true at least where I am. Probably only scratches the surface, but there are regular crackdowns, confiscations, fines/prosecutions (under motoring offences).

Same here, or at least the (now previous since the local elections) council have been very vocal about "prosecuting to the maximum extent of the law" or similar words.
I'm not sure they have actually DONE anything as we no longer have a police station

Given the previous (as of local elections) council were always pushing anything to knock down family homes to build commuter hovels this always seemed at odds .. though I guess it reinforces their building skyscrapers in the centre policy ??

Essentially it seems to remove the need for regular, currently legal, ebikes to be pedal assisted.

To be a current EPAC class ie same use legality as a bike it has to be pedal assisted, if it has a saddle it can't get e-scooter type approval. Type approval regs take ages to revise so (unf) nothing's happening anytime soon re what is or isn't an e-scooter/bike etc.

But the EAPC Regs just refer to the testing method, not the whole thing, and are not interested in ensuring the quoted power is available, but in ensuring that the achievable power is below a maximum.

Correct, the EN test for e-bikes is only to establish the power level that fits within that type/class. Whether it's 150W or 250W isn't the Q, it's just establishing it doesn't run at 600W.

My argument would be what’s to stop manufacturers just labelling a motor capable of passing say a 500w continuous as a 250w motor? This will easily pass the 250w continuous test. I’m willing to bet most motors in ebikes can surpass the 250w test despite being labeled as 250w continuous.

If it runs at 500W on the maximum continuous rated power test, the 250W output isn't the 'max'. So the EN tests for e-bikes would stop them. Motors can peak well over 250W but the 'max continuous rated power' test or labelling isn't the same as peak output. Common that 350W 48V motors are reduced to 250W via a 36V rated system.

if the top speed is capped as the same as an ebike then how much effect does the added power have?

Means they don't stall going up a 1 in 6. Motor torque is highest at lowest revs so with more power a given torque can be had at a higher speed or higher torque at a low speed.

https://zagdaily.com/trends/number-10-says-transport-bill-will-pave-way-for-e-scooters/

Number 10 has confirmed that the Transport Bill will pave the way for legislation on private e-scooters despite no specific mention of this in Prince Charles’s delivery of the Queen’s Speech.

A Government spokesperson from Number 10 told Zag Daily: “Safety will always be our top priority and our trials are helping us to better understand the benefits of properly regulated, safety-tested e-scooters and their impact on public space.

“While riding a privately owned e-scooter on public land is currently illegal, we are considering how best to design future regulations and our Transport Bill will help us to take the steps we need to make e-scooters safer and support innovation.”

Came to add a link, bikeiz have covered it too
https://bikebiz.com/e-scooter-legislation-to-be-included-in-transport-bill-government-confirms/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

I'm conflicted on eScooters.

I don't think in their current form they are safe - the combination of small wheels and poor roads makes for a high level of risk - and someone I know well broke 2 vertebra in his neck coming off one when it hit a pothole.

They are also used locally by scumbags as crime vehicles - and I've narrowly avoided getting mugged for my brompton by a group of 3-4 riders who came from nowhere and tried to block me in to make me stop. I couldn't out ride them because they were the illegal / fast ones and it only stopped due to the good fortune of a police car coming the other way. The police didn't slow down or stop but the scooter scum were up on the pavement and going the other way as soon as they saw the cops.

They are also used on pavements and parks where they shouldn't be - even the licensed operators haven't geofenced the scooters properly to prevent this.

I also think there's a real issue where many of the riders are clueless about how to use the roads safely or how to avoid risk to other road users. Having some kind of mandated training seems like a CBT for mopeds is a no brainer.

BUT:

- if the scooters had bigger wheels / were safer AND
- Geo-fencing worked
- the police came down very hard on illegal scooters AND
- the riders did proper training on how to use the roads

... they are potentially going to help get people out of cars which can only be a good thing.

They are also used on pavements and parks where they shouldn’t be – even the licensed operators haven’t geofenced the bicycles properly to prevent this.

I also think there’s a real issue where many of the riders are clueless about how to use the roads safely or how to avoid risk to other road users. Having some kind of mandated training seems like a CBT for mopeds is a no brainer.

🙄

someone I know well broke 2 vertebra in his neck coming off one when it hit a pothole.

If you don't want accidents, stay at home. But then deal with the massively increased hospitalisation, healthcare costs, and early deaths from a sedentary lifestyle.

I'm sorry your friend had an accident, but he could easily have been squashed on a zebra crossing or ridden a bike into a pothole and crashed that way.

Car drivers are quick enough to victim blame cyclists and it looks like you're doing pretty much the same thing.

someone I know well broke 2 vertebra in his neck coming off one when it hit a pothole.

My bike went out from underneath me for no obvious reason I’ve ever been able to work out, at roughly walking speed. My left knee took the majority of the impact, but also my shoulder and the side of my face, giving me a nasty graze on my cheek, and only the fact that I was wearing a helmet, which took quite a hit on the peak saved me from probably a significant head injury. As it is, I’m now living with osteoarthritis in two places directly under the impact scar on my kneecap.
As far as scooters on pavements are concerned, the kids on bikes riding just as fast are as big a menace, and often there’s several riding together.

Save the finger-wagging and Pearl-clutching for the Daily Wail.

If it runs at 500W on the maximum continuous rated power test, the 250W output isn’t the ‘max’. So the EN tests for e-bikes would stop them. Motors can peak well over 250W but the ‘max continuous rated power’ test or labelling isn’t the same as peak output. Common that 350W 48V motors are reduced to 250W via a 36V rated system.

Perhaps, but that's obviously not what is happening, as I said you can easily run down these bikes in an hour with a 500wh battery, so they are capable of putting out more than 250w at a steady rate over the hour. These bikes will handle going up hill at full pelt for an hour with ease.

Even changing from a 48v system to a 36v system does nothing to limit these machines to 250w.

If a add a 36v 7amp battery, i'd get 250w peak from it, if I add a 48v 5.5 amp battery I'd get 250w peak out of the battery. The power you can get out of the machines is determined by the volts and amps. You put more through than they can handle, they'll still output more energy, they'll just burn out quicker if they aren't rated as such.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing, limiting it to 250w peak would be a bad thing and would make these machines seriously under-powered. Just saying that the 250w thing than most mention isn't really a valid way to look at these machines. The power output of a motor is determined by the amps and volts you stick through it. All the continuous rating does is tell if the motor will handle the abuse you throw at it.(If indeed they are being truthful about the test, but as you've alluded to they aren't, the 350w and the 250w are the same motor mostly.)

Never ceases to make me mentally facepalm when e-scooters raise negatives because scallies use them or they're not ridden with perfect care and attention all the time. Obviously that's the user not the vehicle. Scallies will rob you whether scooters exist or not. Would you be anti bike because some scallies ride bikes? They drive cars too?
While cars exist and continue to make urban environments so bad to live/be in I'll never be anti anything that is a viable alternative.

I'd agree that they're potentially sketchy things and the wheels are too small imho ..but I ride a Brompton, pretty much the same : ) Sketchy but portable.

I'm all for electric personal transport, looking at the switch to electric vehicles as a like for like combustion car to electric car is a bit short sighted.

We've actually got a chance to redesign the whole concept of personal transport with the switch over to electric and all of the vehicles should be considered when designing infrastructure over the next 20/30 years.

Needs a fundamental shift in attitudes though, but that'll come with the next generation that grow up with all these different options available to them.

bike manufacturers need to chill out on their pricing a bit tbh mind!

I’m all for electric personal transport, looking at the switch to electric vehicles as a like for like combustion car to electric car is a bit short sighted.

We’ve actually got a chance to redesign the whole concept of personal transport with the switch over to electric and all of the vehicles should be considered when designing infrastructure over the next 20/30 years.

Needs a fundamental shift in attitudes though, but that’ll come with the next generation that grow up with all these different options available to them.

absolutely. the ability to use existing bike infastructure is a plus point for the short term though.

I am (obviously) a keen recreational cyclist, and without wanting to sound big headed have as a result a far greater fitness and riding skill than the average urban commuter who doesnt also ride for fun or competition.

For urban transport though, even I would take an escooter over a bike (e or not) any day of the week for a number of reasons. For the non cyclist, the arguments against the bike get stronger.

If my aim is to travel a few miles in an urban or suburban environment, on tarmac surface, flat or gentle hills, in "civilian" clothes without getting sweaty or rained on; while carrying up to a large backpack (40 litres?) worth of cargo; and then secure my vehicle against theft at my destination...

then an escooter would be my choice over any possible bicycle you can suggest.

There's no way I'd get Mrs zip on a push bike but if they bring in residents parking where she parks for work I can almost imagine getting her on an e scooter.

If my aim is to travel a few miles in an urban or suburban environment, on tarmac surface, flat or gentle hills, in “civilian” clothes without getting sweaty or rained on; while carrying up to a large backpack (40 litres?) worth of cargo; and then secure my vehicle against theft at my destination…

I’d walk or use a Brompton. Or a hire bike in an urban setting.

How does a scooter stop you being rained on? 😉

@seosamh77 batteries will supply as many amps as demanded from them, the rating you are seeing is either the capacity (Ah = amp hours) or the current drawn by the motor. The only real restriction is the wire thickness.

@flaperon et al, I think the point he was making is that scooters are a lot more unstable than bikes and as such carry a higher risk due to the significantly smaller wheels. Even a Brompton is going to shrug off potholes that would topple a scooter. Anyone who has ever ridden a scooter should be well aware that where your weight is can be the difference between bumping over a pebble or flying over the bars.

squirrelking
Free Member
@seosamh77 batteries will supply as many amps as demanded from them, the rating you are seeing is either the capacity (Ah = amp hours) or the current drawn by the motor. The only real restriction is the wire thickness.

Yeah, current drawn by the motor is what I'm on about. it's usually about a max of about 15 amps on these bikes(though I'm willing to bet some draw more) 15a x 36v = 540peak(or the range i was talking about yesterday due how batteries actually charge). Bit of googling tells you that, and the fact you can run down a 36v 500wh battery in about an hour easily enough if you push it. ie 500w / 36v = 14amps.

I’d walk or use a Brompton. Or a hire bike in an urban setting.

How does a scooter stop you being rained on? 😉

it doesnt stop the rain from above.
but its the water on the floor that gets you on a bike. Even full length guards you will still get your feet sprayed. £10 halfords clip ons arent much use in bad weather.
no guards, and only bone dry floors would I consider riding in if I needed to remain presentable at my destination.

Coat wise, on a bike you are fairly limited to a waist length jacket, cheap ones will be boil in the bag on a non-electric bike.
Your thighs will get more rain on them on a bike than stood vertical on a scooter.
A coat that covers the arse, or even knee length is practical on a scooter. Just avoid the beige trenchcoat look...

Surely the power output in any particular situation may be limited by the software. It won't necessarily be the max that could be obtained from the hardware.

Eta - even if the rider is asking for max power.

Edited. Actually scrub that. Sears, whose video I posted and deleted now seems like he’s a bit of a dick.

greyspoke
Free Member
Surely the power output in any particular situation may be limited by the software. It won’t necessarily be the max that could be obtained from the hardware.

Eta – even if the rider is asking for max power.

Easy way to test a bike, is just find a very big steep hill and keep going up it till the battery runs out with minimal effort, time the ups only.

If it takes you 1h mins on a 500wh battery and you've got 50wh left, that's you running at 450 an hour. So 450 / 36w = average of 12.5 amps..

Tis only a theory could probably do with some empirical evidence. I've only got a bafang, but I can directly decide amps per power level, so easy for me to see the effect of amps.

I've hired bikes though, equally as powerful as a bafang running at 15/18amps, imo.

Yep looked at myself and no issues present so I’ll crack on, scooter riders act like dicks in London, the scooters are unsuitable for the roads and a menace on pavements.

Sorry I had to reread that to check you were not a car driver moaning about effing cyclists!

There are dicks on bikes, in cars, e-scooters, and on mopeds. Doesn't make everyone a dick, and I'd rather be close passed by an e-scooter than a car.

Scallies will rob you whether scooters exist or not. Would you be anti bike because some scallies ride bikes?

It used to be constantly in the news about groups of kids on mountain bikes riding on footpaths, mugging people from behind then clearing off at high speed. More recently they use motor scooters, smashing shop windows with hammers then tearing off, or else riding them onto footpaths and stealing phones, watches and stuff. Plus they wear full-face lids, so almost impossible to identify.
escooters are just another mode of transport. When I’m walking around town, I’m much more likely to be passed at some speed on the footpath by an adult on a bike than I am a kid on a scooter. I’m waiting for the inevitable to happen - some halfwit to come tearing up or down my road on the path on a bike, just as I’m pulling out of my front drive, and slam straight into the front of my car. It’s not possible to see anything on the path because I have hedges either side, a pedestrian can see my car edging out, but the cyclists are riding fast - a good ten/twelve mph, and would cause significant damage.

You pull out of the drive not only knowing you can't see but you're also the one causing the blind spot, a good legal argument might not go your way.

I’d rather be close passed by an e-scooter than a car.

Bit of whataboutery there, scooters are an an unnecessary hazard for pedestrians, cyclists and other road users. I don’t need another group of self-centred arseholes making the streets more dangerous.

As a regular cyclist into London I’m unlikely to be close passed by a car in a bike lane however poorly ridden scooters are a regular occurrence.

They also seem to be relatively dangerous, even before they start bursting into flames;

“Since 2019, PACTS is aware of a total of thirty-one deaths involving e-scooters, one in 2019, three in 2020, thirteen in 2021 and fourteen in 2022 (to early December). A register is available here (latest edition 7 December 2022). The youngest person who has died was a 12-year-old rider, the oldest rider was 74. Trial rental e-scooters have been involved in four incidents where someone has died, one relating to a 75-year-old moving a parked rental e-scooter. Twelve riders have died in single-vehicle collisions and one pedestrian has died having been struck by someone who was riding an e-scooter.”

They are the answer to a pointless question.

It’s not possible to see anything on the path because I have hedges either side, a pedestrian can see my car edging out, but the cyclists are riding fast – a good ten/twelve mph, and would cause significant damage.

That's the sort of argument used by militant anti-cyclists in local rag papers. Any sort of car/bike collision "could cause significant damage to my car" usually followed up with: "and who's going to pay since they don't have insurance?!"
The cyclist could die or be seriously injured.
The car will have some scratched paint and a dent. 🙄

I'd suggest that if you're pulling out of a driveway, across the pavement, and you can't see them you need to get the hedge cut or have someone guiding you out.

Yes, there's a secondary argument about bikes (or e-scooters) on pavements but it could just as easily be a mobility scooter, electric wheelchair, kid on roller skates etc.

How did this 7-month old thread get revived anyway?!
The legislation promised by the Government has, like all Government promises, been delayed so all DfT have done is go "oh yes, the trials will be extended for another 2 years". Classic, kick the can down the road Government where they're either incapable of doing anything or terrified of the backlash of legalising e-scooters...

[i]I don’t assume e-scooters as something dangerous[/i]
hmm, maybe...
[b]2021[/b]: 223 pedestrians injured, 63 seriously hurt.
64 cyclists injured in collisions with scooters
1,034 e-scooter riders or passengers injured, including 9 killed - 28 people suffered a serious head injury, 32 sustained a fractured lower leg, ankle or foot, and three endured a broken neck or back

It would be nice to see "brakes" inn the specifiication.

I think a 20mph max would be better for both e-bikes and scooters, it would avoid a speed differential between motor vehicles in ever more common 20mph zones. Being overtaken is how many people get hurt/killed. No justification for overtaking an e-bike/scooter in a 20mph zone then.

Seen a few of these spanking it down the Bristol to Bath cycle path - including a group of about 4 lads on them the other week:

https://kaabouk.com/products/kaabo-wolf-warrior-11?variant=32068624482385

80km/h!! Fair startles you when a couple of those ****ers come flying past at 50mph.

some halfwit to come tearing up or down my road on the path on a bike, just as I’m pulling out of my front drive, and slam straight into the front of my car. It’s not possible to see anything on the path because I have hedges either side, a pedestrian can see my car edging out, but the cyclists are riding fast – a good ten/twelve mph, and would cause significant damage.

Cut your hedge then?

Seen a few of these spanking it down the Bristol to Bath cycle path – including a group of about 4 lads on them the other week:

Kaabo Wolf Warrior 11 PRO Electric Scooter

80km/h!! Fair startles you when a couple of those **** come flying past at 50mph.

But they're nothing but illegal, and still will be once whatever legislation is finalised.