E-bike 'News' Shocka!

It does my head in that you can't have an escooter that is restricted and meets all the requirements of the hire ones,  yet some arse can go hammering past at 30mph on a bike with their feet up because they are delivering food

One of the Tories, think Ian Duncan Smith, wants to introduce laws about illegal cycling. But the sort of vehicles they're talking about in that article aren't bikes, so we don't need any new laws about cycling illegally. Already covered as they'd be classed as a motor vehicle.

yet some arse can go hammering past at 30mph on a bike with their feet up because they are delivering food

but i want warm pizza!

they`ve allowed sales of unrestricted bikes/motors for so long tht going back is going to be tough.

Are the non pedal delivery bikes supplied by their "employers". If so deliveroo must be due a huge court case when the next person gets hurt.

yet some arse can go hammering past at 30mph on a bike with their feet up because they are delivering food

Not just delivery bikes, I got quickly gapped by a Brompton of all things the other day, on the flat and I was clocking 40 kph on my Garmin, the Brompton rider was definitely no Chris Hoy.

What staggered me was the reporting as if this was a new thing, anyone who's spent more than 5 minutes outside in a town or city over the last couple of years will have encountered them.

Unfortunately the lashed up  super-eeebs are mostly a symptom of the zero hours fast food cartels (while Surrons are subsidised mostly by drug dealers)... All IMO.

Are the non pedal delivery bikes supplied by their “employers”.

No.

Are the non pedal delivery bikes supplied by their “employers”. If so deliveroo must be due a huge court case when the next person gets hurt.

As said no, but they make no effort whatsoever to check the vehicles their delivery riders use.

Mentioned it on another thread but police auctions selling presumably confiscated Surrons doesn't exactly seem cost/time effective.... Drove up to Hackney on Monday night - the amount of illegal electric bikes is of epic proportions. I have to prove to my employer that I have the correct business use insurance on my car & motorbike, would be good if deliveroo exercised the same cautions.

I think Deliveroo delivery riders/drivers are self employed.

Deliveroo also thinks its riders are self-employed, but isn’t it just another instance of zero hours workers being exploited? I don’t see how they’re not employees.

I feel for the poor sods delivering for Uber Eats or whatever,  but the Police could pull them all off the road and deal with them with a couple of days concerted effort.

It's a resources/priority issue. It will take a tragic death to make it a priority and get the resources. And legal ebikers will be dragged down by the media.

If I ever saw an illegal ebike delivering to a Police station I'd be straight on to social media. Two cops got disciplined recently near us for driving the wrong way down a pedestrian zone to get their Greggs breakfast, pics went up on social media, picked up by BBC.

As said no, but they make no effort whatsoever to check the vehicles their delivery riders use.

It's the "independent contractor" model, which works nicely in the States where placing liabilities and risks on an individual are just fine and wider impacts can be ignored so long as the share values go up.

Here in the UK it needs tackling head on and responsibilities need putting back on the companies deriving profits by inducing those contractors to create these dangers in our public spaces.

Given they are technically motorbikes, you'd think it would be the motoring laws that need "tightening up" (enforcing) rather than the cycling laws.

I've been saying for ages, I reckon the authorities are ignoring the blatantly illegal Deliveroo bikes because they're too scared of the backlash from the lazy sods who get fast food delivered in the first place.

Just wait until one wipes out a baby robin's face, etc.

It’s lack of enforcement,there’s plenty of laws to cover it.

I suppose in the big picture regardless of what you think they aren’t causing that many deaths/injuries per day compared  with everything else which are roughly (from 2022 figs)about 4.5 deaths and 76 seriously injured.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-provisional-results-2022/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-provisional-results-2022#overall-casualties

(I do find it funny how all YouTube van lifers seem to be regularly  getting BSO e-bikes and doing dire reviews on them as they aren’t really cyclists and the main thing seems to be the speed element and how you don’t have to pedal.)

Also 3 deaths due to fire according to London Fire Brigade https://www.london-fire.gov.uk/safety/lithium-batteries/the-dangers-of-electric-scooter-and-electric-bicycle-batteries/

I think we'll end up with a defacto ban on *any* ebike if the government doesn't get a handle on the illegal ones.

All ebikes are already banned on some transport rail networks and in some workplaces and flats. Could end up in the situation where it's difficult to get house insurance if you've got an ebike.

Surely they're missing the point with charging them for cycling offenses? Half the problem is people are seeing these things as pedal bikes rather than electric motor bikes.

As it's been modified they should be reclassified as mopeds, at which point they're charging them with no registration, no insurance, speeding offenses and potentially no license too.

Surely they’re missing the point with charging them for cycling offenses?

Its a rather confusing article eg "explained the vehicles did not need to be insured" when seemingly talking about those modified to be e-motorbikes instead whereas I suspect the quote was referring to the legal cut out at 15.5 bikes.

All ebikes are already banned on some transport rail networks and in some workplaces and flats. Could end up in the situation where it’s difficult to get house insurance if you’ve got an ebike.

Can’t take them or E-Scooters on our local trains. Could well see insurance becoming an issue too, although I guess phones and dodgy chargers have not caused a rise?

I am still of the view that the press and police need to start using the correct term. If they are modified for excess speed or a hand throttle with no pedal required, they are electric mopeds or electric motorbikes.

If they remain correct as an EAPC, then they are an ebike.

Simples.

Yep…

Surrons and their clones are not an EAPC and classed as a moped or 125cc

 for A Road Legal Sur-Ron LBX you will need a licence, registration and insurance. You will need to be 16, speed restricted to 28mph and carry L plates. The Surron Storm Bee and Surron Ultra Bee Road Legal are classified as L3E (125cc equivalent), which means they can be ridden on a CBT or A1 Licence.

so the laws in place for these.

and for non EAPC

Any electric bike that does not meet the EAPC rules is classed as a motorcycle or moped and needs to be registered and taxed. You'll need a driving licence to ride one and you must wear a crash helmet.

so we have a law for that.

Just need a will to prosecute.

none of the offences are cycling, they are way more serious.

I have to prove to my employer that I have the correct business use insurance on my car & motorbike, would be good if deliveroo exercised the same cautions.

Do you have to prove you have bike insurance?

It’s lack of enforcement,there’s plenty of laws to cover it.

But none of them are named after a child so obviously won't.

A Road Legal Sur-Ron LBX you will need a licence, registration and insurance.

Only if you get caught, they are usualy ridden by drug dealers wearing balaclavas... they will be long gone by the time a police car gets around to attending the complaint.

TBH I’d love one 🙂

The only issue i have with them is the range but for something to run around on without too much noise and pollution they are hard to beat but a Honda  Groms cheaper.

Only if you get caught, they are usualy ridden by drug dealers wearing balaclavas

Nah the road legal ones cost extra so they just use the "use on private land you have permission to use" ones instead.

YouTube van lifers

Mostly vapid merchants.

During the Summer I often sit down on a grassy bank that looks down on a row of shops/ a road.

Most of the ebikes I see are used by riders picking up deliveries from the coop/takeaways etc. They are almost always derestricted but by enlarge, the riders abide by road rules/etiquette.

Then there are the Sur-Rons...

Always ridden at pretty much full throttle, dangerously and by riders in full face masks which im sure has nothing to do with hiding their faces from any cops... Never ridden by delivery riders that's for sure.

I quite fancy a Sur-Ron or similar, I have a car with full insurance, all I think I need is registration and a lid, I’m covered for a 125, so it’d be great for pottering around the local lanes and such.

Just not in the current climate …

Never ridden by delivery riders that’s for sure.

Sure they're delivery riders, it's just not food they're delivering.

I have a car with full insurance,

You'd still need to insure the bike separately.

Nah the road legal ones cost extra so they just use the “use on private land you have permission to use” ones instead.

I think they should close down that loop hole and only allow the sale of  road legal.

It’s a bit of a fun killer as then you have the mot,tax,insurance and licence requirements and people who do have the land and would stick to the rulez are getting penalised for the muppets ruining it for us all.

I do think there’s a place for them but people want the speed and that them brings them into the realms of mopeds/motorbikes.

They just replaced the pit bike ‘menace’ so it’s  same type of numpties that again ruin it for us all.

Funny enough just seen a video on my feed about a  cyrusher step thru when unlimited (disconnect a plug) with a  bit of ghost peddling  and a throttle 27mph no ghost peddling 20mph on throttle.

So deliberate design from the factory that you have to move your legs just to make it look like you are pedalling and it will boost to 26-27mph

Weighs 42kg thou but £1,600.

I can see it as a good transport choice tbh, but that’s a moped.

Pedal assist ebikes should be revolutionising urban transport and other short journeys but these illegal emopeds are just creating a negative environment  that makes it harder to get the public to make that mental shift.

I think they should close down that loop hole and only allow the sale of  road legal.

Know the one about "haven't thought this through"?

Immediately stop any 'vehicle' that's not "road legal" from sale - so motocross bikes, race bikes, track-day bikes/cars, track cars etc etc.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, they should introduce an easier way to licence/register/insure 'vehicles' for the last-mile delivery service, and put the onus on any company using these services.

As a district councillor I have had direct experience of the corrosive effect illegal electric mopeds are having on the general public's perception of cycling in general.

We've been trying to get some barriers removed from a local cycling cut through as they were preventing those with cargo bikes or adaptive cycles from getting through.

The flurry of letters we recieved from nearby residents were full-on "there will be deaths and their blood will be on your hands" type missives. A bit much when most of the riders using the route are kids on their way to the local secondary school.

Talking to the residents and digging a bit deeper it became clear that it wasn't actual cyclists that had these people up in arms, it was delivery riders in illegal electric mopeds, every single one of the negative experiences that came up was with one of these, riding like muppets, no lights, on pavements etc etc.

We are forming an active travel group on the council which I intend to join to push for better and more connected safe cycle infrastructure in my city. We are going to be fought every step of the way and the illegal mopeds and the way the public conflate them with cyclists is going to be major factor in the opposition we will see.

We are also already seeing bike shops closing because the panic about battery fires from ali express specials has jacked up insurance premiums to a ridiculous level, even for shops who never touch the dodgy stuff.

If the police enforced existing laws and Deliveroo and Co were held financially responsible for any fines etc whenever one of their riders gets collared this problem would dissappear fairly quickly.

I’m going to go out on a limb here, they should introduce an easier way to licence/register/insure ‘vehicles’ for the last-mile delivery service

We already have that in the form of mopeds. One day training and you are sorted.

The legal ones obviously cost more than a homebrew conversion but then they also tend to have such things as lights and brakes designed for continuous 30mph vs cantilevers which if they are lucky will slow you down from 10mph in a mere hundred meteres.

We already have that in the form of mopeds.

Exactly.
One day training.
Insurance sorted in under an hour.
Away you go to earn a living.

And you both cut out the end of my sentence, why?

, and put the onus on any company using these services.

And you both cut out the end of my sentence, why?

Because your primary statement was about "easier way". How much easier than a moped do you want?

I’m going to go out on a limb here, they should introduce an easier way to licence/register/insure ‘vehicles’ for the last-mile delivery service, and put the onus on any company using these services.

There is a 'low barrier' solution already, the pedelec rules compliant e-bike, with 15.5 mph/250w assistance limitations. No licenses or insurance required, assistance is limited specifically because there's no further licensing or training required to operate one on public roads.

If you want more speed/power/mass then the associated costs and effort should go up. We already have a workable legal and regulatory framework, it's just not being used or enforced properly...

I'd agree the companies currently deriving profits from the permissive attitudes of the police (and some of the public) need to contribute to solutions. Whether that's by setting their own equipment and training standards, providing equipment or looking at the employment terms they set (or don't).

As for Surrons, you don't need to compel their registration, but you do need to give the police/DVLA the power to penalize dealers who keep selling them to scrotes who subsequently get caught riding on the roads, which means the sales and serial numbers will need to be logged (their needs to be traceability). Sellers should set their own policies, but if they're induced to either require registration or refuse sales to untrustworthy customers for fear of losing profits, then the industry should regulate itself (in theory at least). If they fail to do that then more draconian are applied.

They also need to be crushed by default if caught being used illegally on the roads (the bikes not the scrotes, although...), putting Surrons in police auctions, just to end up back on the streets adds to the problems.

Because your primary statement was about “easier way”. How much easier than a moped do you want?

Because the key control is on those corporate/companies that utilise this part of the Gig Economy.

The folk in the Gig Economy have to be able to operate as cheap as possible, because they're the ones that the 'big boys' will take advantage of (and Joe Public quite frankly doesn't GAS as long as they can get cheap deliveries).

So make it easier for them to be legal.

This whole thread reads pretty similar to a Daily Mail discussion about cyclists, or a New Forest discussion about MTBers.  Really folks, take a pause and think. Objectively speaking, how many actual traffic deaths are these people causing to others? Are they actually that bad?

Yes I know you hate them because dark clothes, no lights, riding on the pavement, flagrant disregard for others, never signal, going faster than some arbitrary speed that you seem acceptable l, jump red lights, have a throttle, aren't even pedalling.....

ACTUALLY BECAUSE THEY'RE Different FROM YOU And NEED TO BE BANNED

FROTH, FROTH, Froth.

ACTUALLY BECAUSE THEY’RE Different FROM YOU And NEED TO BE BANNED

Nope. I am perfectly happy with mopeds/motorbikes etc and have had a moped for transport in the past.  I am semi tempted by an e-motorbike although cost/range makes a normal bike look a better choice.

The issue is when people take a motorbike and treat it like a bicycle.

So take a pause and think. That your take on peoples position is "NEED TO BE BANNED" shows you dont understand the issue.

So make it easier for them to be legal.

Once again, how?

There are two very easy legal options available currently.

Use a bicycle which includes the pedelec rules compliant e-bikes.

Use a moped.

The latter needs a bit more investment but not a lot. How much easier do you want?

I am also not sure that your argument of the corporations are taking the piss and therefore we should make it easier for them really stacks up. Perhaps enforce the laws on the corporations instead?

Know the one about “haven’t thought this through”?

Yep, its why I was replying about the non legal surron 🙂

Before the surron 'menace'  it was either nicked scramblers or pit bikes but they weren't thought of as bicycle/e-bike whereas I think the surron is.

It just get posted to any postal address, its sold like every other white good.
I'm assuming a road legal version would want details for the V5/Registration paperwork prior and all the boring stuff.

ACTUALLY BECAUSE THEY’RE Different FROM YOU And NEED TO BE BANNED

This is just bollocks. These things are not bicycles, they are motorcycles. We are fine with that, many of us ride motorcycles. We aren't actually asking for anything extra to be banned, we would just like the existing laws to be applied. If you are caught riding a motorcycle without a licence, helmet, insurance the police will charge you appropriately and usually seize the bike. No new laws are needed.

Sorry. I should have phased it as

ACTUALLY BECAUSE THEY’RE Different FROM YOU And NEED TO BE stopped at all costs.

Shared use cycle path, to just two weeks ago, I moved out to overtake a man walking his dog.  I was clocking along at 36kph.  The next thing I know there's a massive screech of tyres and as soon as I’m passed and pulled in, off shoots the unrestricted ebike, not pedalling and going at least 20kph faster than me.

This isn’t about them being different, it’s about relative speeds making them totally unsafe to share space with pedestrians, cycles, dogs, etc.

At speeds such as this, they need to be on the road.  Heck at 36kph, you could argue I do too.

ACTUALLY BECAUSE THEY’RE Different FROM YOU And NEED TO BE stopped at all costs

More bollocks. I'm a motorcyclist, so they are the same as me. I pay vehicle tax, buy insurance, have passed a test, and wear an approved crash helmet. If I didn't do these things I would expect the law to deal with me appropriately. What makes these people exempt from these laws?

This whole thread reads pretty similar to a Daily Mail discussion about cyclists...

Perhaps, but then those same DM frothers will probably be conflating "cyclists", deliveroo death-trap operators and surron scrotes on e-motos, three entirely different groups who end up getting treated with equal contempt by the public for the actions of a small minority.

All that has actually changed is the available technology, the classification of vehicle types and the rules to govern them was established long before Uber eats and your local drug dealers decided they needed to propel ~100 kg of metal and meat about in public spaces using old laptop batteries...

You can have your surron, register the bastard thing, fit lights and wear a lid. Same if you want to build your own electric motorcycle take it for inspection and approval, get a licence and ride in line with the law of the land. Fail to do that (as more and more seem to be doing) and sympathy will be in short supply when the inevitable happens.

Heck at 36kph, you could argue I do too.

Yes the general guidance for shared paths is if you are going faster than 15mph or thereabouts then its time for the road.

It does my head in that you can’t have an escooter that is restricted and meets all the requirements of the hire ones

Its well weird.

In Spain you can have one but it’s got to have a Certificado VMP and we’ve even got term for them Vehículos de Movilidad Personal (VMP).

VMPs are personal mobility vehicles powered exclusively by electric motors, with a maximum design speed between 6 and 25 km/h. These vehicles can only have a seat or saddle if equipped with self-balancing systems..

The police do roadside checks with portable rolling road machines to test that it complies.

They are pretty popular.

Personally, I'd crush them. There are perfectly good electric mopeds that require insurance, come with a number plate, and have CBT licence requirements. That they are not being used by food delivery riders is flagrant law breaking in the absence of enforcement. I have no issue with law abiding E-cyclists, nor do I think compulsory insurance for such riders is necessary. But these "riders" have nothing in common with cyclists, other than the source vehicle they started from. I also have no issue with the E-scooters of the non-hiring variety, and think the law needs amendment for such a sensible personal mobility device. But food delivery is not personal mobility.

It will take a few more deaths from house fires before existent legislation is enforced properly. We can't bring scooters into work and we can't charge E-bikes at work. I would not have one of those delivery contraptions charging inside a building. Greater enforcement of already sensible rules (and extension to scooters) would help the law-abiding cyclists, and would-be law-abiding scooter riders.

We have acquired a local pest with a BSO that has a very noisy two stroke engine fitted to it. Not seen or heard one of those before.

However nothing quite matches the exercise bike

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx24891nz3jo

https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/electric-exercise-bike/

We have acquired a local pest with a BSO that has a very noisy two stroke engine fitted to it. Not seen or heard one of those before.

I’ve seen the kits advertised, they are cheap around €120 on Amazon here so very cheap way of turning your bso into something way more worse 🙁

At least it's not an ebike, so there'll be no fire risk.