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Like many of you I guess i am finding DWR frustrating, however I soldier on with the spray on type and just try to keep up to my gear [laminates like Goretex etc].
I bought a 'down care kit' from Grangers on an offer (it has a wash in down watherproofer). But before I use I have an important question.
I used to use Nikwax products like TX10 wash in and spray, but, no more. Nikwax instructions and customer care are not great. They are still selling a softshell proof product that seem like it would "waterproof" the wicking liner, how many softshell are there that are unlined?
I’ve switched to Grangers products. I use a lot of their spray proof as any DWR seems to wear off quick. (all modern DWR, to be fair).
Now I am thinking about my down jackets.
I had a bad experience with my valued Buffalo micro fleece lined Tecmax top https://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/products/tecmax-shirt/ - when Nikwax’ instructions led me to treat it with their wash-in proofer
- Even though I gave them feedback based on the Buffalo guys comments (wash in waterproof will ruin a Bufalo fleece lined garment - and it's really hard to remove) - The Nikwax instructions still aren’t clear - it should be made clear that garments with a wicking lining will stop wicking if “wash-in proofed. The Nikwax softshell product instructions have probably led to a lot of ruined garments which had wicking linings until treated!
Also, I recently fell foul of a lack of wicking when I bought a (cheap/ casual wear) Mountain Warehouse artificial 'down' jacket. It is described as having a DWR coating and, misguidedly, they’ve apparently used the same fabric throughout, which means the lining repels sweat and the jacket and your base layer very quickly gets damp inside.
So that’s the history - and it makes me rather nervous about using the Grangers Down Wash and Repel wash in treatment. I can’t find any reviews with info about post treatment breathability.
Breathability in down garments and sleeping bags seems vital to me.
Surely any wash any waterproofer must reduce breathability of the lining? I cant find any online reviews that mention post treatment breathability. SO many reviews seem to be clickbait rehashes of the manufacturer's info!
thanks all
I've always wondered this when doing wash-in reproofing too .. !
Grangers said it doesn’t affect breathability. But if it’s DWR surely it’ll not allow sweat through the lining.
Anyone tried a wash in down proof?
Most down and synthetic jackets will have a degree of DWR on their linings. The DWR not only repels liquid water, it also protects from body oils and dirt to some extent (although not as well as it used to...). The DWR will still allow moisture vapour to pass through the fabric.
Wash-in DWR will never be as good as the original DWR was, so I wouldn't overthink it.
I asked in Nevisport what to use for my buffalo shirt and they told me nikwax wash in. But to me that sounded entirely the wrong thing, given the fluffy lining and the way you have to do multiple cold rinses. I doubt any wash in would work with that type of lining.
Buffalo instructions read(now that I've bothered looking 😆 NOT to use a wash in but " Nikwax TX Direct SPRAY ON can be applied to the Pertex or PForm outer only after washing "
I would just keep spraying it if thats whats worked in the past.
There are different routes to breathability. Some garments have tiny holes like pertext or soft-shells, or eVent fabric. Others have a water-permeable membrane like Gore-Tex and most waterproof fabrics. With permeable membranes, the water has to actually soak into the inside of the fabric where it can get sucked out to the outside and evaporate. This is why re-proofing them with wash-in destroys the breathability. However, the theory (and practice, in my experience) is that after only a few wears it rubs off the inside and you're good to go again.
With micro-permeable membrane waterproof jackets it shouldn't affect them. However, garments that rely on wicking would indeed stop working. But for how long, I don't know - I've only ever reproofed shells.
Another great reason to layer, rather than get all-in-one garments.
Imho membranes are crap - I prefer pile and pertex.
I've washed a down jacket in Graingers down wash then tumbled it with tennis balls. Jacket is fine.
Liquid soap flakes is my go-to for washing Buffalo pile &pertex as well as membranes - I read somewhere it's what Nikwax techwash actually is and I've used it now for years without any issues.
STW approved Waitrose link;
https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/dp-liquid-soap-flakes/581461-82431-82432
Learn from my error, the liquid soap flakes are much easier than actual flakey flakes which don't want to dissolve, leaving an attractive dandruffy look for the unwary.
Cheeky thread hijack, I have a load of the tx wash in waterproofer, is it the right thing for my Carnac flimsy single layer windproof coat and my Berghaus dog walking coat (polyester with ePTFE membrane, polyamide lining).
Having buggered my Endura softshell I am a little trepidatious!
Nickwax wash-in proofer works with Paramo clothing. Indeed you have to use it to keep the garment ‘waterproof’. Paramo uses a wicking(?) pump liner which the wash in stuff doesn’t damage. I know that they are different but if it doesn’t damage the pump liner, why does it damage the pile in a buffalo?
The pump liner in Paramo is the reverse of Buffalo. The furry bit faces outwards. It doesn't wick, it kind of does a surface tension thing, and relies on the pump liner being covered in DWR to help push the water towards the outer. A bit like animal fur
Mr Buffalo himself told me that wash in knackers wicking. It definitely ruined my Teclite which still seems to have lost wicking even after about 15 washes.
As I understand it, no garment with a wicking liner should ever be wash-in proofed. Hence my hesitancy with the down jackets. That and my Mountain Hardware rather sweaty “synthetic down” jacket.
Rustynissanprarie - was that Grangers “Down Wash” you tried - or their combined WASH + REPEL DOWN 2 IN 1?
( https://grangers.co.uk/products/wash-repel-down-2-in-1 )
Thx for comments all.
I recently fell foul of a lack of wicking when I bought a (cheap/ casual wear) Mountain Warehouse artificial ‘down’ jacket.
That and my Mountain Hardware rather sweaty “synthetic down” jacket.
Which is it? Mountain Warehouse or Mountain Hardware? 🙂
In practice I've found cheap down / synthetic down jackets to be sweaty whether they have any water repellent coatings or not, the fabric just isnt all that breathable so any DWR is an irrelevance.
As above with stuff like paramo, they're garments that are designed to work with wash-in waterproifing work perfectly well that way, stuff like nikwax isn't a fix, its the point of the garment. I've to a Paramo Torres which maintains breathability with nikwax inside and out but they are made to work like that - that the waterproofing is an going practice throughout the life of the garment from new, not a solution to a garment starting to fail
DWR garments leave the factory made of fabric that had the DWR applied before the garment was assembled - so it doesnt matter to the manufacturer that the water repellent bits and wicking bits that have different properties are now all stuck together. From their point of view the Durable Water Repellant is 'durable' - long lasting, its not really a serviceable fabric. Companies may well sell aftermarket products to help revive DWR fabric but thats not necessarily something thats been planned for in the design.
The pump liner in Paramo is the reverse of Buffalo. The furry bit faces outwards. It doesn’t wick, it kind of does a surface tension thing, and relies on the pump liner being covered in DWR to help push the water towards the outer. A bit like animal fur
Yes, that makes sense. Thanks
@midfish - it was the normal Graingers down wash, nothing fancy about it. It was only that it was a new jacket that I slipped and fell over in mud that made me buy the 'proper' stuff. I've washed older down jackets in liquid soap flakes - aka Tech Wash for years without issue.
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Wore my Montane Extreme jacket for the first time today when out with doggo on the Moors first light. Caught in a heavy shower reminded me just how good pile and pertex stuff is.
Rusty Nissan
So wash and wash in proofer combined?
It’s the proofing part that worries me. Don’t want to ruin my down - after ruining my Buffalo Teclite with Nikwax TX10 wash in.
Yeah. Pertex / pile like Buffalo is ace. Cosy
Id love the trousers!
Love my 30 year old Super 6 shirt for apres ride duties. But even the lighter Buffalo Teclite shirt is far too warm on a bike, for me, unless it’s actually freezing out there.
Macc’ yeah. Mountain Warehouse. Hardware is a lot better I expect.
Have always assumed that most of the newer hydrophobic down style garments are essentially a DWR coating that adheres to the down fibres to improve their moisture resilience, so not convinced that a wash in re-proofer will make that much difference to the breathability here. These type of insulated garments tend not to be so breathable anyway in the grand scheme of things, the newer 'active' type just having more holes in the insulation to allow air to permeate.
Definitely right though about not applying wash-in to Buffalo style or modern Alpha/ Alpha Direct type fabrics as you'll hinder the engineered-in wicking through the fibre construction. I use the Nikwax Soft-shell spray-on proofer to just get it on the outside where you want it, the 'soft-shell' version just has a make-up that better stands up to the stretch and flex of a soft-shell compared to the hardshell type apparently, but always wondered how different it can really be.