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… assuming you can actually have it, refusing the vaccine ultimately boils down to one of two things:
1) I don’t understand it.
2) I think I’m special.
Cf.
The limited trials
1.
As yet unkown side effects, as well as some known side effects
1.
Lies about how effective it is (was supposed to be) against Covid
1 and 2.
The whole propaganda surrounding the implementation of it
2.
Being virtually forced to have it for social acceptance
2.
The fact that the chances of even knowing you have Covid are 2/3, let alone being hospitalised by it
1 and 2.
The fact that even if vaccinated, you can still contract and pass on Covid
1 and 2.
Most of all – personal choice in a free country
2.
Next? Honestly, if I were you I'd be looking for a higher calibre of friends.
rubber bullets ( AKA baton rounds) have a long history of killing folk. Tazers are no good in crowds
And? How is that relevant TJ - who has suggested using rubber bullets and tazers?
The Croydon riots of 2011 were as serious as you get (10 years later Croydon still bears some of the scars) the Met managed to get on top of those without the use of live rounds, rubber bullets, and tazers.
No warning shots were required and no aiming at the legs either.
As with the table in theotherjonv post, the Dutch police are aiming for their legs,and it is a serious riot, one where the lives of the police and innocent members of the public are being put at risk, so maybe thats justification enough, unless you think anarchy is a legitimate protesting technique.
I was at the 1985 Brixton riot. Not that I was throwing stuff, just that I had a squat there at the time and like the others in it went out for a look see. That was pretty mental, and the police werent shooting people,though they did have petrol bombs flung at them(and bricks, bottles etc), rather running down specific groups and bashing them over the head with long batons.
The tactics used in the UK in 1985 cant be compared with the tactics used by a different police force, in a different country 35 years later, but I dont think they would go to such extremes if they didnt think that action was warranted.
And? How is that relevant TJ – who has suggested using rubber bullets and tazers?
it was suggested less lethal methods could be used - I pointed out that this killed no one and the "less lethal" methods used here cause deaths. Its not a simple answer.
Oh - and those Croyden riots were not that serious How many folk were killed?. Last time the dutch rioted there were tanks on the streets to regain order
What about my personal choice to be able to go to Tesco not being surrounded by plague rats?
You're vaccinated and will continue to be, every 6 months for the rest of your life possibly. What are you worried about?
A “free country” does not imply that you can do whatever you want. There are requirements dictated to us by society. Would we argue that it’s OK to stab your next-door neighbour because it’s a “free country”? How often have we locked up the Naked Rambler for the crime of not wearing pants?
Most people on here seem to be fairly intelligent, yourself included, so don't tell me you can't see the stark difference in morality. If you see past the fact that you probably support mandatory vaccination, you'll appreciate that in essence, being forced to have a vaccine against your will, is completely different to being prosecuted if you kill somebody with intent
no-one in the UK is talking about mandatory vaccinations other than anti-vaxers.
They probably weren't in Austria 6 months ago
those Croyden riots were not that serious How many folk were killed?
Four according to Wikipedia, but not in Croydon. Those riots spread over large parts of the country. I thought I remembered a couple of people dying in the arson attack of a carpet shop, but looks like they didn't. There was a lot of other serious crimes too.
It's a little bit OT, but to reply to STR, I'm fine with people exercising their rights not to be Covid vaccinated, but I'm also very supportive that those who choose not to are excluded from a lot of the benefits of living in a society where they are freely available.
They probably weren’t in Austria 6 months ago
As I understand it, they're not in Austria now either. They still have free choice not to have it, there are just consequences to that decision.
They probably weren’t in Austria 6 months ago
I think the German health minister has suggested that everyone in Germany will either be; vaccinated, recovering or dead in the coming months.
Honestly, if I were you I’d be looking for a higher calibre of friends.
The points I've mentioned are by a long way not a summary of the views of my whole circle of friends
However, I do know quite a lot of people through my locality, work and staying in different places away from home.
To be honest, I'm quite happy with the people that I associate with, because unlike the judgemental crowd on here, not one SINGLE one of them (the vast majority of whom are vaccinated) would ostracise a friend for having different views (however much they might disagree), or not having a vaccine. Just like they wouldn't kick someone out of a house party for voting Tory - because, as I've seen, that's the sort of people that seem to have the rule over this forum
The Croydon riots of 2011 were as serious as you get (10 years later Croydon still bears some of the scars) the Met managed to get on top of those without the use of live rounds, rubber bullets, and tazers.
Funny I seem to recall considerable criticism that the Met lost control during that period of rioting across London. If they’d has control Reeves Corner (so) wouldn’t have been torched would it?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/aug/08/london-riots-met-police-tactics
I pointed out that this killed no one and the “less lethal” methods used here cause deaths.
How many people have been killed by kettling? You state this is a violent police tactic
How many people have been killed by the new baton rounds introduced in 2007? How many times have they been used in riots since 2007?
Kettling exacerbates situations and is illegal under UK law IIRC
If you see past the fact that you probably support mandatory vaccination, you’ll appreciate that in essence, being forced to have a vaccine against your will, is completely different to being prosecuted if you kill somebody with intent
What about a charge of culpable manslaughter if it is proven a wilfully unvaccinated person transmitted the virus to another person leading to their death?, hypothetically speaking of course as it’s not possible to achieve such a level of certainty.
Kettling exacerbates situations and is illegal under UK law IIRC
How many dead from kettling?
How many dead from kettling?
@Big'n'Daft
So you think kettling is ok ?, and even though it is supposedly illegal the police still do it, so by that you think its ok for the police in the UK to act illegally.
What other illegal acts do you think the police should be allowed to do ?.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59148620
I know we are not discussing jabs on this tread more the choose or not too actions of a few. But would you not let your daughter take that one?
It was a new vacation once.
And sadly if you riot when it's a know practice that armed police will shoot then a high percentage of the rioting crowd will get put in that situation. I don't even think they where protesters more the nasty side of thug life that inhabits the population
Kettling exacerbates situations and is illegal under UK law IIRC
I don’t think it is.
One factor to consider is that many Dutch police carry pistols routinely. In the UK they don't, so the opportunity for their use is much greater in the Netherlands.
Here, armed officers are only deployed under specific circumstances. They will be highly trained (hopefully!) and operating under strict rules of engagement and within a specific chain of command.
In the Netherlands, I'm guessing the executive decision to shoot rests very much with the individual officer. To make a fair comparison with the UK you would have to imagine that every police officer at the Brixton and Croydon riots was carrying a pistol. Things might well have worked out differently then.
At the time of the 2011 riots the thought occurred to me that in almost any other country (including those in Europe) the State would have responded with bullets.
"I don’t think it is."
Have you ever been 'kettled' by the police drac? I have and I can confirm that it can be extremely dangerous. Let's just say it can be used for different reasons than simply 'crowd control', it can (and is) used to exacerbate situations and put innocent people in danger.
Four according to Wikipedia, but not in Croydon.
According to your link it is 5, one of them shot dead in Croydon. Although I am not sure how many TJ wants dead before that decides whether live rounds should be used.
Funny I seem to recall considerable criticism that the Met lost control during that period of rioting across London. If they’d has control Reeves Corner (so) wouldn’t have been torched would it?
Absolutely not. Not one single shop was looted in the centre of Croydon where most of the shops are. No looting occurred behind the steel ring that the police created.
Reeves Corner was torched because manpower limitations didn't allow the police to protect totally an area with a population of a third of a million. Reeves Corner is about a ten minute walk from the main shopping mall.
Shops in South Croydon where I live were looted because they were over a mile from the centre of Croydon were police lines were. Although the police did respond extremely quickly. Geoffrey Butler cycle shop, which was about 2 miles from the centre, was looted but very little was taken because the police arrived so quickly. I don't think they managed to take any bikes at all, but maybe three or four.
Of course if the Met police had been patrolling the streets in tanks and opening fire on looters I think it is possible that less looting might have occurred, but I think most people, apart from possibly a few Daily Mail readers, or perhaps Guardian writers who need to criticise the police, were satisfied.
I’m quite happy with the people that I associate with, because unlike the judgemental crowd on here, not one SINGLE one of them (the vast majority of whom are vaccinated) would ostracise a friend for having different views
So none of them would ever hold their friends to any kind of standards at all for their views on, say, racism, sexism, homophobia, cheating on a partner, lying, violence etc - no matter how repulsive? Very admirable I must say.
But would you not let your daughter take that one?
No problem, she's also had her MMR
From the Independant
NHS leaders and health officials fear there is a realistic possibility 60,000 people could die from flu this winter
A year or two ago, I was told by my GP that I wasn't eligble for a flu vaccine (I'm now 50 and had pneumonia as an infant/bronchitis through my teens). I wanted to have it, so went to the pharmacy to pay for it, but there was a shortage
There's no argument on here without getting shouted down, just so much with this doesn't sit right with me - such as giving 6yr olds the right to over rule their parents decisions
NHS leaders and health officials fear there is a realistic possibility 60,000 people could die from flu this winter
Even more reason not to unnecessarily stress the NHS because you (the general you) think you're too special to have the CV vaccine then.
such as giving 6yr olds the right to over rule their parents decisions
Eh?
Have you ever been ‘kettled’ by the police drac? I have and I can confirm that it can be extremely dangerous.
How is it dangerous? I have been in police kettles lots of times, imo it is undemocratic, and a pain in the arse if you are busting for a piss, but I have never considered it dangerous.
It's basically imprisonment without any due process.
How is it dangerous?
Why do you think it's called kettling? It's designed to aggravate.
Even more reason not to unnecessarily stress the NHS because you think you’re too special to have the CV vaccine then.
Why are we not being threatened with restrictions if we don't have the flu vaccine?
I don't think I'm special, I just don't particularly want to have it yet. One day, maybe I will, who knows?
Kettling is designed to bring things to the boil, the clue is in the title.
Why are we not being threatened with restrictions if we don’t have the flu vaccine?
Because flu isn't as dangerous. Have you not noticed how many people have died of CV, despite massive disruptions to normal life AND a successful vaccination programme?
I don’t think I’m special, I just don’t particularly want to have it yet. One day, maybe I will, who knows?
Did you read the article I posted up there by the doctor who is getting weary from the constant battle of trying to help people who won't have the vaccine, who are taking up massive amounts of resources that could be used for better things? Of course you didn't.
You are free not to have the vaccine, and currently there are no restrictions - you're not free from other people thinking that makes you a selfish twunt though. Or at the most generous interpretation, someone not bright enough to see past conspiracy theory and baseless paranoia.
Have you ever been ‘kettled’ by the police drac? I
No, I’m not sure that relevant to it not being illegal.
By restricting the movement of innocent people within the same confined space as less 'innocent' people you put innocent people in danger.
If you (as the police) have an ulterior motive you can employ this strategy in quite creative ways....
So you think kettling is ok ?, and even though it is supposedly illegal the police still do it, so by that you think its ok for the police in the UK to act illegally.
It's definitely preferable to shooting people, hitting them with batons, CS gas, water cannon, etc
"Supposedly illegal" you would have thought if it was the legal eagles who support the freedom to protest would have taken it to court by now and the police would have had to stop or change the practice if found illegal subject to any appeal
By restricting the movement of innocent people within the same confined space as less ‘innocent’ people you put innocent people in danger.
More danger than shooting into a crowd?
Turning the riot into a blood bath
Not seeing reports of a bloodbath?
How many dead from kettling?
Was certainly implied it had caused deaths by the earlier poster (TJ) and I'd like to see the data to back it up.
The Poluce have to do a lot of unpleasant things as part of their job to protect lives and property. A lot of them I don't like and wouldn't want to have to do or be on the receiving end of. But it's very easy to criticise and not have to come up with a better solution on a forum
'In April 2011, the High Court of Justice ruled that kettling on that occasion was illegal, and it set out new guidelines as to when police were permitted to kettle protesters.[40] This means that the police "may only take such preventive action as a last resort catering for situations about to descend into violence".[41] Police would still legally be allowed to kettle if they had reason to believe that violence would break out.'
More danger than shooting into a crowd?
Seems like a comparable danger if you look at injuries really. Never mind all the innocent people who end up trapped/having panic attacks/not being able to get to a toilet etc with kettling.
Why do you think it’s called kettling? It’s designed to aggravate.
So why do they let you go free after a couple of hours or so when you are presumably really aggravated and ready to boil over?
Obviously I must be simply too chilled to be affected by kettling, I just find it annoying.
So anyway how is it "extremely dangerous" as claimed? Makes people want to kill?
Kettling is illegal except in absolute last circumstances. court case more than 10 years ago. It cannot be used as a routine tactic without breaching the law
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/apr/14/kettling-g20-protesters-police-illegal
Because flu isn’t as dangerous
So 60,000 deaths this winter isn't dangerous? Compared to 150,000 over 2 years, I'd say it's comparable. Yes, I'm aware that month on month Covid has trumped flu, but this is your sacred NHS leaders and health officials stating these numbers
Did you read the article I posted up there by the doctor who is getting weary from the constant battle of trying to help people who won’t have the vaccine, who are taking up massive amounts of resources that could be used for better things? Of course you didn’t
Not tonight, I've read it before though
Obviously I must be simply too chilled to be affected by kettling, I just find it annoying.
It depends how it's done, obviously. Pioneered at the Battle of Orgreave, BTW.
So 60,000 deaths this winter isn’t dangerous? Compared to 150,000 over 2 years, I’d say it’s comparable.
Isn't as dangerous. Learn to read. You're either being wilfully ignorant or you really just aren't very bright.
Not tonight, I’ve read it before though
And yet your right to be a special snowflake is more important eh.
Eh?
12, sorry - still the same ethics
How many people killed by kettling?
Still waiting for an answer
Still waiting for the answer on baton rounds since 2007, how often used in a riot, how many dead since 2007?
Those trying to get an equivalence to firing live rounds at rioters are frankly laughable in their despair to make out that we live in a hellhole compared to the EU
"It’s definitely preferable to shooting people, hitting them with batons, CS gas, water cannon, etc"
Some of those options can be used with discrimion, targeting specific problem individuals. Kettling is indiscriminate.
Kettling is often used in when the police have a situation under control but want (for whatever reason) to exert more control.
Isn’t as dangerous. Learn to read.
Jesus
And yet your right to be a special snowflake is more important eh.
My right to choose what I put in my body is more important than your opinion, I know that much
Kettling is illegal except in absolute last circumstances
As is shooting rioters in the Netherlands. Its all relative.
Those trying to get an equivalence to firing live rounds at rioters are frankly laughable in their despair to make out that we live in a hellhole compared to the EU
how many rioters have been killed by the dutch police compared to the UK police?
Your anti eu stance is showing again.
My point simply was that in different countries police use different tactics and the "less lethal" UK police tactics are both dangerous and lead to deaths and deliberately inflame the situation with kettling
My right to choose what I put in my body is more important than your opinion, I know that much
And our rights not to have plague rats around us mean that you will be excluding yourself from stuff as a result.
But then as you have outed yourself on here as a far right person with no feeling or empathy for your fellow people its hardly suprising you take this stance Its all Me me me me
My right to choose what I put in my body is more important than your opinion, I know that much
Yes, your inherent narcissism trumps everything else. Well done.
Definitely not up for armed police shooting people (unless of course theyre being shot at or in ahostage type situation). Just don't see how kettling and shooting are somehow seen as alternative methods for dealing with a situation (as some here are presenting).
Both methods are bad.
The most likely explanation for happened in the Netherlands is; 'Have guns, will use them.'
The fracas in The Hague was in an area which is notorious for crime, also a large non-indigenous population.
If in doubt, blame brown people. The crossover between your anti-vax sites and the far-right is starting to show CG.
Kettling is illegal except in absolute last circumstances. court case more than 10 years ago. It cannot be used as a routine tactic without breaching the law
So not illegal but has to be justifiable, a bit like the use of lethal force.
And our rights not to have plague rats around us mean that you will be excluding yourself from stuff as a result.
As I said earlier to another similar reply. What are you scared of, you are immune?
But then as you have outed yourself on here as a far right person with no feeling or empathy for your fellow people
Hahaha, hahaha, hahaha. Far right? Get a grip Jeremy
did you bother to read the report Drac?
ASTR - yes hard right - thats your expressed views on here constantly. Are those not your true views or do you really think its not hard right?
My point simply was that in different countries police use different tactics and the “less lethal” UK police tactics are both dangerous and lead to deaths and deliberately inflame the situation with kettling
Still waiting for the deaths from kettling which you stated is a violent tactic, still waiting for the deaths from baton rounds in riots since 2007 when they changed the practice
Your anti eu stance is showing again.
I'm not anti EU, I just don't think the UK is as bad as the EU fanboys make out. We aren't the ones using live rounds, water cannon and CS gas on protestors/ rioters.
If in doubt, blame brown people. The crossover between your anti-vax sites and the far-right is starting to show CG.
Eh?
Yes, your inherent narcissism trumps everything else. Well done.
Retaining a freedom of choice is not narcissism
You know, for how liberal you lot claim to be (and I honestly don't ever come across such a sanctamonious group of people in real life - I'm glad you've found each other), you have no respect for anyone that doesn't embrace your woke values.
It doesn't bother me, I'm thick skinned, but the insults and bullying on here to anyone that doesn't conform, doesn't really align with your values, does it?
And that goes way beyond not having a vaccine
Eh?
Don't worry CG - if all else fails, they are bound to pull out the race card at some point
ASTR – yes hard right – thats your expressed views on here constantly.
Just so I can triangulate, as you say I'm far right am I to the left or right of ASTR?
ASTR – yes hard right – thats your expressed views on here constantly
Come on then big man, expose me as a far right thug. Please
did you bother to read the report Drac?
Is it the same one that involved the Court of Human rights who deemed it legal but has to be last resort and justifiable. It’s not illegal in the UK no matter how you’re trying to spin it.
Because flu isn’t as dangerous
So 60,000 deaths this winter isn’t dangerous? Compared to 150,000 over 2 years, I’d say it’s comparable. Yes, I’m aware that month on month Covid has trumped flu, but this is your sacred NHS leaders and health officials stating these numbers
BMJ flu deaths, (actual data, not some figures a gob on the internet made up)
This is too easy
Poor right wingers/racists/anti-vaxxers don't like being called out and say they're being bullied. Aren't we lefties supposed to be the snowflakes?
Don’t worry CG – if all else fails, they are bound to pull out the race card at some point
Her article literally suggests that the unrest isn't anti vaxxers it's because lots of 'foreigners' live there and do lots of crimes.
Talking about 'playing the race card' is a popular trope of the far right. But of course that's not you is it...
@somafunk, taken directly from your beloved media, not made up by me. Do you wan't to chuck another insult my way to reinforce the point that grum ^^ is trying to brush away?
Poor right wingers/racists/anti-vaxxers don’t like being called out and say they’re bring bullied. Aren’t we lefties supposed to be the snowflakes?
I don't give a f***, just calling you out on your behaviour. You have double standards. FACT
At least I'm consistent
Her article literally suggests that the unrest isn’t anti vaxxers it’s because lots of ‘foreigners’ live there and do lots of crimes.
Talking about ‘playing the race card’ is a popular trope of the far right. But of course that’s not you is it…
I haven't read CG's article
But still, you had to find the racism element, didn't you?
Perhaps 'foreigners' do commit more crime, I dunno. I've not researched it, but as the font of all knowledge, I presume you have
Absolutely not. Not one single shop was looted in the centre of Croydon where most of the shops are. No looting occurred behind the steel ring that the police created.
Reeves Corner was torched because manpower limitations didn’t allow the police to protect totally an area with a population of a third of a million. Reeves Corner is about a ten minute walk from the main shopping mall.
Shops in South Croydon where I live were looted because they were over a mile from the centre of Croydon were police lines were.
So the Met didn’t have control in Croydon, just one small part of it, glad we’re in agreement.
But still, you had to find the racism element, didn’t you?
It’s the sixth line blaming non-indigenous residents, it wasn’t hard to find
Commentator from the Netherlands:
'It's the immigrants'.
There, I've fixed it 😀 Be interesting to have a link directly to that commentator. I mean it wasnt just floating about the web, clearly it's being quoted from somewhere. So where would that be CG 😕
r woke values.
ha ha ha ha ha
that is such a telling line that you use woke as a insult. trumper much?
Big and daft - i would have you in a similar place hard right ie central in the modern tory party. However i would say you at least put some thought into it not just simply swallow hard right proaganda
Be interesting to have a link directly to that commentator.
Tommy Van der Robinson?
Be interesting to have a link directly to that commentator.
I tried googling some of it in quote marks and the only thing that came up was a Toby Young website which is apparently the successor to Lockdown Sceptics. I couldn't find the actual quote though.
I've seen CG post links to nutty anti-vax sites full of far-right content before, and I can't see what possible relevance the ethnicity of some of the locals is, unless you are trying to cast aspersions.
It’s the sixth line blaming non-indigenous residents, it wasn’t hard to find
I didn't read it, as I said. Learn to read, as I was told earlier
So, is there a possibility that non-indigenous residents were the cause of the problem - have you researched, or just got offended because someone blamed brown people?
that is such a telling line that you use woke as a insult. trumper much?
I'm still waiting for your barrage of facts that I'm far right TJ? You've told me on here that I'm a misogynist, racist, big bloke that bullies people on numerous occassions
Care to say that over a pint? I bet you wouldn't. Not that I'd 'beat you up', I've never laid a hand on anyone in my life, but you sure do shout your mouth off. Much like many on here