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demonstrators, hooligans call them what you will but shooting people sounds a touch extreme.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59363256
Not great is it. What's next?
I’ll wait until there’s more details.
"On Saturday, people hurled fireworks at police and set fire to bicycles in The Hague, one night after protests in Rotterdam turned violent and police fired gunshots."
I'm dubious. How on earth do you set fire to a bike?
If an anti-vaxxer gets shot, at hospital would they question what they were been jabbed with?
Covid denying idiots are rioting & attacking police in Holland
Is the more accurate headline
How on earth do you set fire to a bike?
pretty easy if its carbon. Guessing they put an accelerant on to it and melted the tyres.
and police fired gunshots.”
I’m dubious. How on earth do you set fire to a bike?
Police fired shots, nothing reported about shooting at protesters.
And setting light to bikes, if they’re ebikes, then once any flammable parts, like battery cases, get going, then they’ll be bloody difficult to put out.
There are no reports of shooting in Belgium.
In Rotterdam on Friday police fired warning shots and, when that didn't work, there were a few direct shots because the situation was seen as life threatening.
Kelvin's post ^^^ accurate.
Live rounds. No reports of deaths...
At least three demonstrators are receiving hospital treatment for gunshot wounds, officers said.
I expect they deserved it, plebs.
I'm not seeing enough information to know either way.
I think it was on the radio on Friday, they don't use plastic rounds like in NI in the past they first warn with shots into the air and if they then need to shoot low at lower legs. Which isn't exactly 'nice' - protesters were shot in the knees
Table 1.1 of the shooting test on p6
Well, if you believe in your cause enough it will be worth it.
Bregante
Full MemberI’m dubious. How on earth do you set fire to a bike?
There's a video of it in the article, about 2 inches below the bit you quoted, and the thumbnail is a picture of a bike on a fire
A bike on a bunch of wooden pallets, which are all on fire, i think i can guess how the bike is on fire now ;o)
As for gunshots, i would seriously hope no police force in the western world would fire live ammunition as a warning in a city centre!
Hardly comparable with Tiananmen Square though is it?
Presumably a few shots were fired with police sidearms (I don’t know this for sure though), which is a long way from armoured vehicles and automatic weapons used indiscriminately.
Police spokesperson Patricia Wessels told the Reuters news agency: “We fired warning shots and there were also direct shots fired because the situation was life-threatening.
“We know that at least two people were wounded, probably as a result of the warning shots, but we need to investigate the exact causes further.”
Most watched
Witnesses with video of the riots were urged to submit footage to the police.
Perhaps the protesters don't believe in bullets,or even guns?
Everyone getting shot by guns in America each year is actually, in fact, being stabbed at that *exact* same moment but bullets are blamed by the huge knife lobby in America.
The bastards.
The whole concept of "warning shots" seems quite strange to me - particularly if people were wounded by them?
Bullets come back down almost as fast as they go up.
How very Dutch... burning your bicycle?
In the UK it would be a wheelie bin...
In France it would be a few cars...
Northern Ireland back in the day a Bus..
In the US Capitol Hill...
In the UK it would be a wheelie bin…
Looting more like ...
Well, if you believe in your cause enough it will be worth it.
I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong.
B. Russell (1872-1970)
I believe that in Belgium they have special guns to give the impression of real gunfire, presumably for riots like this. But, all the police carry guns so I imagine there is a procedure for using them including warnings. Watching the footage we've seen so far does make it scary that they were used given the number if other options available to them. I'm wondering if this was some action away from the main area with riot police and all the usual stuff they have
Not great is it. What’s next?
I'd imagine what's next is the tiny minority of lockdown whackadoodles and vaccine warriors carry on while the rest of shrug and get on with life.
You're honestly comparing rioters angry at having to make minor adjustments to go to a pub with the protestors in Tiananman Square? And that the those health related imposition will somehow lead to a crushing authoritarian regime?
Dutch police are trained to shoot at the legs to incapacitate when needed. I have to admit I had a 'wow' moment when I heard and subsequently read that (link above) but there's the reality for you.
I guess the protestors got their shots after all
What counts as a "minor" in Rotterdam?
Thank god for Brexit, would only be a matter of time before some unelected bureaucrat in Brussells would be making us shoot rioters over here!
Rotterdam riot arrest total reaches 51, police confirm two were hit by bullets
How about: "Police confirm two people were shot."
Or even: "Police confirm that officers shot two people."
It's a very worrying state of affairs, protesters should be allowed to protest, even if their cause is stupid and they're involved because they're selfish arseholes.
in related news, everywhere I went in Belgium last week was not only able to accept a UK Covid passport in-lieu of their own 'Safe Ticket' but were also happy to take a BC / UCI Race Licence as proof of identity
also, nobody shot me or set fire to my bike
I see the remains of a purple anodised rim in that picture.
I have to ask myself if I would have acted any differently to the rioters.
It’s a very worrying state of affairs, protesters should be allowed to protest
Are they being stopped from protesting, or rioting?
Covid denying idiots are rioting & attacking police in Holland
THIS.
It's a fing long way from tanks & the Army being deployed in an attempt to quell a democratic movement by an authoritarian government (verging on a dictatorship).
Due to conspiracy theorists bringing knives, (and even a bomb!) to UK vaccination sites, security has been increased, not limited to bag searches.
Three EU countries bringing in mandatory vaccinations, and the rest are watching to see how much public disorder there is on the streets. Waves of home-grown terrorism are coming this way because of these dangerous nutjobs.
I lived amongst religious extremists (most from the UK/US) for years and see links between their thinking/behaviour. If the Dutch police are firing live rounds at these guys, then there's reasons that can likely only be fathomed by having their information, and being on the streets during the disturbances.
I wonder how many actually were there to protest and how many were there to cause trouble?
...coming to the UK soon i feel.
Covid denying idiots are rioting & attacking police in Holland
THIS.
It’s a fing long way from tanks & the Army being deployed
My point is that just because you disagree with their cause, you should be alarmed if an uprising is being dealt with so aggressively.
But also this:
Are they being stopped from protesting, or rioting?
Obviously I don't know the answer to that.
My point is that just because you disagree with their cause, you should be alarmed if an uprising is being dealt with so aggressively.
If it was happening this side of the north sea we would have the usual suspects decrying our descent into a racist police state
Dutch police and it's all a bit meh
I'd argue it's a policing failure that it got to the stage of discharging firearms and shooting people.
Its no more agressive than kettling, baton charges and the like - its just their protocols for dealing with violent disorder are different to our police tactics
Last time the dutch had riots and they were much more serious it ended up with tanks on the streets.
I lived amongst religious extremists (most from the UK/US) for years and see links between their thinking/behaviour.
A lot of this is being driven by right wing and Russian misinformation networks, supported by the way social media algorithms drive the content. The protests and riots are a symptom, those involved have been fooled into their beliefs.
I’d argue it’s a policing failure that it got to the stage of discharging firearms and shooting people.
It's valid point but without more information difficult to draw a conclusion..
I’d argue it’s a policing failure that it got to the stage of discharging firearms and shooting people.
Depends, if your protocols for dealing with civil unrest (above the genuine right to peaceful protest) include shoot to wound, and the police are trained in those protocols then has policing broken down.
Is it really so different to as TJ says baton charges, which have capability to cause serious injuries and broken bones? Or plastic bullets?
IDK why the Dutch don't have plastic bullets in their arsenal, but according to the radio report I heard they opt not to use them and instead use live ammunition. To the uninformed (me) it was 'wow' but there has to be some logic.
Baton charges and plastic bullets have caused a good few deaths in the UK
Can we get some clarification on whether these people are:
a) covid deniers
b) anti vaxxers
c) anti another lockdown
And then see how people's opinion of heavy handedness changes
^ To answer myself, BBC article says "increased measures" but looking at Austria last week that can be fairly ambiguous
a) covid deniers
b) anti vaxxers
c) anti another lockdown
It's not about their motivation for protesting that's the issue, protesting is part of a modern democracy, even if you are bat-shit mental. There is a line though between legitimate protest and riot, it appears some members of the protest crossed the line.
The anti-expert populist rhetoric that has been adopted so effectively by many rightwing media outlets & politicians is at fault here
I just dont have the energy to argue with some of the antivax/covid-denying nonsense people post of facebook, twitter, its truly insane
Perhaps the protesters don’t believe in bullets,or even guns?
Force-treating them with this lead-based medicine seems unethical to me, having googled the long-term risks.
Danish police shot 11 people back in 93 at protests after a vote related to the EU.
If i recall correctly there were shouts of aim for the legs back then.
My point is that just because you disagree with their cause, you should be alarmed if an uprising is being dealt with so aggressively.
Did you watch the video? They were throwing firebombs and massive fireworks at the Police. I'm sorry, but that's not a protest, that's a riot and rioters that disrespect those sent to enforce the law are likely to get hurt.
They police have a right to defend themselves and, tbh, if you're stupid enough to attack a person carrying an assault rifle, well, what do you expect is going to happen?
There have been similar riots in Rotterdam relating to Feyenoord - including a similar police response in shooting football hooligans. So it's not something new and seems to be how the police there deal with such incidents.
Covid denying idiots are rioting & attacking police in Holland
Broadbrush swipe right there
Can we get some clarification on whether these people are:
a) covid deniers
b) anti vaxxers
c) anti another lockdown
I know a lot of people that are unhappy with the way that rules and mandates are being imposed - none of them are 'Covid deniers'
I also know a lot of people that don't want THIS vaccine - none of them, as far as I know are anti-vaxxers as known in the traditional sense
I don't know anyone who wants another bloody lockdown
I also know a lot of people that don’t want THIS vaccine – none of them, as far as I know are anti-vaxxers as known in the traditional sense
I don’t know anyone who wants another bloody lockdown
Why don't they want the vaccine?
I know a lot of people that are unhappy with the way that rules and mandates are being imposed – none of them are ‘Covid deniers’
I also know a lot of people that don’t want THIS vaccine – none of them, as far as I know are anti-vaxxers as known in the traditional sense
This is very true.
You can question the rules and mandates (and those that are being looking at in the future) without saying that Covid doesn't exist.
You can question some of the vaccines and who they are given to without saying no to all vaccines.
Certainly the first point is quite prevalent in my group of friends.
My point is that just because you disagree with their cause, you should be alarmed if an uprising is being dealt with so aggressively.
I'm happy for any uprising against a genuinely democratically elected government to be dealt with in this manner.
As for rioting that may endanger life, I'm happy to let the democratically elected government of that country decide the rules of engagement, as we do here.
Protesting is fine, rioting, criminal damage and danger to life and limb are probably unnecessary.
Why don’t they want the vaccine?
A mixture of things...
The limited trials
As yet unkown side effects, as well as some known side effects
Lies about how effective it is (was supposed to be) against Covid
The whole propaganda surrounding the implementation of it
Being virtually forced to have it for social acceptance
The fact that the chances of even knowing you have Covid are 2/3, let alone being hospitalised by it
The fact that even if vaccinated, you can still contract and pass on Covid
Most of all - personal choice in a free country
None of tbat is true about the covid vaccine really tho is it? all made up nonsense.
To tj's point;
The whole shooting people in the legs with live rounds thing reminded me of something I read the other day.
During the many BLM protests in the U.S. there were over 150 people with serious headshot wounds (losing an eye etc.) from 'non lethal' rounds fired by police. Not that the police were aiming directly at protesters and media reprasentatives heads or anything....
A mixture of things…
The limited trials
As yet unkown side effects, as well as some known side effects
Lies about how effective it is (was supposed to be) against Covid
The whole propaganda surrounding the implementation of it
Being virtually forced to have it for social acceptance
The fact that the chances of even knowing you have Covid are 2/3, let alone being hospitalised by it
The fact that even if vaccinated, you can still contract and pass on Covid
Most of all – personal choice in a free country
Yeah...But...No...But......
All utter ****ing bullshit anti-vax conspiracy nonsense taken out of context and if any of my friends held those views after being shown the evidence against then id tell them to GTF
STR, step away from facebook, its not doing you any favours
Lookong down the line, I do worry about future resistance to other vaccines, MMR etc.
Luckily I have encountered very few anti vaxxer's, though interestingly with those that I have met the conversation has started with 'the science', moved on to 'the media' and ended up with who controls 'the media' and we all know who it is that they are referring to when the talk about 'the media'.
There's a lot more going on here than vaccine resistance.
Most of all – personal choice in a free country
The only valid and point that stands amongst that list.
Most of all – personal choice in a free country
What about my personal choice to have an NHS that isn't overwhelmed with people who did their own research and wound up on a ventilator?
The limited trials
trials were rushed, no doubt, but jesus we have soo much data now and it all says its better than catching covid, whatever age or risk category you are in
As yet unkown side effects, as well as some known side effects
Initial side effects would be obvious within a few days, long term 6-12 months max, as immune response doesnt change after then, anything else is in your head
Lies about how effective it is (was supposed to be) against Covid
lies by who? as studies get bigger more data becomes available
The whole propaganda surrounding the implementation of it
propaganda from the brexiteer tories, if you cant se ethrough that yet, I have a (garden) bridge to sell you
Being virtually forced to have it for social acceptance
imagine people being selfish enough to think they shouldnt have it
The fact that the chances of even knowing you have Covid are 2/3, let alone being hospitalised by it
its not all about you, >150k dead not enough?
The fact that even if vaccinated, you can still contract and pass on Covid
but you are much less likely to get severly ill ot pass it on
Most of all – personal choice in a free country
its not free, we all have responisbility & legal obligation not to drink drive, wear a set belt, crap in the street etc etc
I’m sorry, but that’s not a protest, that’s a riot and rioters that disrespect those sent to enforce the law are likely to get hurt.
I thought the issue was the use of live rounds?
The fact that it's a riot and not a protest is completely irrelevant in that context.
A few years back we had some very major rioting and looting in Croydon, the Met did not use live rounds. Turning the riot into a blood bath would not have been an acceptable or effective response.
its not free, we all have responisbility & legal obligation not to drink drive, wear a set belt, crap in the street etc etc
I'll probably come back to the rest of it later, albeit we are in danger of derailing a thread with stuff that's been done to death elsewhere.
But if you can't see a difference between laws against irresponsible actions and mandating being injected (however good and harmless that injection may or may not be), then your views are in my eyes as skewed as some of the crap you read on Facebook.
You have a personal choice whether to drink drive, or crap in the street and know the consequences you'll face if you do
It wasn't a bloodbath though was it? Nobody was killed or hit in the head. Wish we could say the same for our policing.
You have a personal choice whether to drink drive, or crap in the street and know the consequences you’ll face if you do
surely its exactly the same for mandatory vaccination?
you dont hove to take it but you know the consequences if you do
You have a personal choice whether to drink drive, or crap in the street and know the consequences you’ll face if you do
The consequences of drink driving is that you could kill someone, the consequence of not getting vaccinated is that you could kill someone.
So far no one is mandating a prison sentence for being unvaccinated. However the innocent need protecting, and as a society creating law is the correct tool to provide that protection.
My personal choice is to minimise my and my loved ones exposure to a potentially deadly disease. I am also happy to extend that protection to a wider societal circle by being vaccinated and following basic protocols. Not doing so is selfish, ignorant and endangers life.
Ok can keep it on topic please.
Nobody was killed or hit in the head.
Successfully using live rounds to control a riot without killing anyone doesn't provide justification for their use.
And I am assuming that everyone realises that being shot in the leg can easily prove fatal.
If causing non-fatal injuries is the primary objective there are far better ways than firing live rounds.
Have a read of this before you start characterising these people as brave freedom fighters - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/21/icu-is-full-of-the-unvaccinated-my-patience-with-them-is-wearing-thin
It's just pure selfish exceptionalism BS, with a smattering of far right conspiracy thrown in for good measure.
Most of them are football hooligans who just fancy a scrap. 'Chat shit, get banged' comes to mind.
Hangin's too good for'em
Christ on a bike.
And I am assuming that everyone realises that being shot in the leg can easily prove fatal.
If causing non-fatal injuries is the primary objective there are far better ways than firing live rounds.
rubber bullets ( AKA baton rounds) have a long history of killing folk. Tazers are no good in crowds
whilst to us it may seem disproportionate its no more lethal than baton rounds and is clearly within the rules the dutch police work under
Christ on a bike.
I'm not sure that's really a viable crowd control measure for most police forces TBH.
Hangin’s too good for’em
It's a bit old school, maybe the government could invent a secret bioweapon disguised as a vaccine to get them instead?
Bullets come back down almost as fast as they go up.
I always wondered about that. "Firing warning shots into the air" - but they've gotta go somewhere, right?
I know a lot of people that are unhappy with the way that rules and mandates are being imposed – none of them are ‘Covid deniers’
I'm unhappy about a lot of that. I'm not out throwing explosives at the police.
A mixture of things…
A mixture of ignorant bollocks.
Most of all – personal choice in a free country
The only valid and point that stands amongst that list.
What about my personal choice to be able to go to Tesco not being surrounded by plague rats?
A "free country" does not imply that you can do whatever you want. There are requirements dictated to us by society. Would we argue that it's OK to stab your next-door neighbour because it's a "free country"? How often have we locked up the Naked Rambler for the crime of not wearing pants?
It's a straw man anyway, because no-one in the UK is talking about mandatory vaccinations other than anti-vaxers.
... assuming you can actually have it, refusing the vaccine ultimately boils down to one of two things:
1) I don't understand it.
2) I think I'm special.