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It's getting to that time when the kitchen places are reopening and we need to get it done.
Anyone used the design services from the likes of Howdens/Wren etc? A local business we have used for other work have suggested we use Howdens to supply and they'll do the install, but our weird size and shape kitchen, plus some of the other work we'll want doing as part of the changes, makes me think we'd be better to use their inhouse designers rather than measure it and try and plan stuff to fit ourselves.
Any experience of them, or the other national chains like Wren? We are looking to get a quote from a local kitchen manufacturer as well, but I expect they will be very good but very, very spendy....
Bump
We went to Wren on Thursday. 2.5 hour session... kitchen design is exactly the same as the 20 year old IKEA one we’ve got, but to be fair it’s a small kitchen which is also a through-route so limited as to what can be done.
Price was actually more or less what I expected supplied and fitted. Going to check out Wickes. Thought Wren were ok to be fair but I always start from the perspective that I’m going to get ripped off, to manage expectation.
personally I want to do the kitchen layout. I want a kitchen that works for me.
I went to IKEA, 5 years in and it's been A-Ok. Having seen other kitchens there are probably some fancy features I'd have liked to have been offered.
I designed it myself then asked their opinion. They made a few small suggestions. I got their fancy steam function oven, wiah id got the self cleaning one as I have never used any of the fancy functions.
Benchmarx were quite good for ideas. In the end used diy-kitchens and their online planner was quite good for trying different layouts.
https://planner.diy-kitchens.com
Don’t buy from Wren. Absolute junk with a big marketing budget. You think those big shops full of sales people pay for themselves?
I’ve used Howdens for kitchen design in the past. Very adequate but our kitchen wasn’t exactly complicated.
In the end we bought from DIY kitchens. Very impressed and about 2/3 the price of Howdens. Have a look...
From personal experience, i.e. I worked for Howdens, Magnet and a couple of other kitchen firms in the late 90s early 00s, most of the 'designers' are really just poorly trained salespeople.
With a bit of thought you can generally do as well as, or far better than they can, after all it's your space, and you know what you want.
DIY kitchens have a design page you can use, I didn't know this until I ordered 🤪
My only experience is with Howdens and I would hazard a guess that it entirely depends on the local rep that sits down with you and plans the kitchen and then sees it thru with the tradesperson that fits the kitchen. My experience of my local Howdens rep and his attention to my job wasn't good, but the finished Howdens kitchen after I intervened in his balls up, I'm very happy with, it's solid and high quality. Mine was part of a larger insurance flood claim where I was housed elsewhere, we had an initial planning meeting, he was keen to wrap up and go home, so promised further meetings to finish finer detail, next thing I knew my half planned unfinished kitchen was being installed, I threw a wobbly, it was sorted out.
We luckily worked out Wren were all pushy sales and no quality to back it up.
Didn't work out the utter lack of transparency with Howdens for pricing. Depends on your particular depot but ours were rubbish and it just doesn't help to have everything go via a builder and have a triangle of communications. Result was mistakes in what was delivered for a row of three (yes three!) carcasses - drawer bin unit, deep drawers and oven unit - with a worktop. I fitted it all and it went in nicely but it was actually less aggro teaching myself cabinet making and making the entire rest of the kitchen.
The design we wanted for the main kitchen needed to scrimp on every possible millimetre in a small space. I was able to do all that with my own design, but the computers the designers use just refused to allow it. Painful process all round.
Same for fitting companies too. Was getting a bit of a make over and wanting a bit of a design chane so as to free up the window area. Chap visits, and apart from a new top all he was recommending was pretty much the exact same thing, the exact same layout as i have already and could have achieved by simply swopping the old doors for new ones. A bit of a pressure seller and offering 'deals' if i signed up then and there but politely declined, and off he goes. After which im seething about his lack of interest in design interests.
I've already came up with a different layout, which allowed all the white goods to be on the one side of the kitchen, though it meant splitting the tall standing fridge freezer down to 2 units side by side. It involved moving the sink and drainage/pipes etc, but wasnt too extreme, but they didnt seem interested and wanted to stick to the bog standard design layout.
In the end I just opted for a new counter and made it wrap around 3 sides, though across the window I was wanting to keep clear, and i suppose eventually I'll just swop out the old doors etc for new.
Perhaps its because of brexit for bringing in units or wherever they buy their stock, or down to covid with maybe costs increasing, but I felt they were only trying to maximize profit for as little work as they could get away with doing.
I had the exact opposite experience to an above poster.
Howdens were pretty useless and Wren were really good when it came to ideas and price. Not really sure about the problem with quality as ours was great to fit, looks exactly the same quality as everyone else's and still looks great five years in. Horses for courses I guess?
Ime
Howdens- unable to give a per item price, unable to explain what anything cost apart from a single full job price.
Wren - design appeared to involve using every size of cabinet possible, as opposed to laying out a useful well structured kitchen
Wickes- bloke did a good design, fully itemised price, and gave us the choice of a fitter or waiting for a good fitter. We waited, he was good (well better than good to be fair). *edit. Oh yeah, the salesman lacked many modern customer service skills; he could actually answer his phone and if he said he would call back he did, most unusual.
As others have said the standard STW answer is DIY Kitchens. Top quality units, online planner and any issues quickly sorted.
They used to have a list of local fitters, but any half descent joiner can fit a kitchen if you don't want to DIY.
There's nothing to be gained from getting a "kitchen designer" to design your kitchen. I should know.
There's no magic, you can sketch the space yourself with squared paper an a ruler then cut out squares and rectangles to represent cupboards and appliances. Think how you want to use it, where you want to stand, what sort of look you want and start from there.
Moving pipes and wires adds a cost, moving walls and doors adds time too.
That should get you a basic design that you can use to show whoever you choose to supply and fit.
My experience is that you need to have a good idea what you want. They'll suggest certain design rules of thumb about making the kitchen functional and maybe some aesthetic suggestions, but mostly they're there to sell you gadgets to stuff into your kitchen, like fancy racks that go inside cabinets, fancy lighting etc.
Howdens is nothing more than basic flat pack stuff, so if all you want or need is bog standard flat pack stuff then Howdens is as good as any and probably the same as all the other high street ones like Wickes, B&Q etc.
I wish I'd spent a bit more and got something a bit nicer. Would have struggled with the budget at the time but we'd be so much better off for it right now. My brother spend about double what I did on some fancy German kitchen - and the Germans do good kitchens. And they did a proper job in helping him design it, ended up suggesting something completely different to what he originally asked for and it was much better layout. On the basis my Howdens kitchen wasn't super expensive double that isn't big bucks in the grand scheme of things. But it is just a significant cut above in material quality, build quality and construction methods. My Howdens kitchen is already showing signs of becoming tatty after 5 years with some areas becoming delaminated and alot of the kick boards moving and impossible to put back securely as they're just clipped onto the plastic legs so just move again. But his looks as good and fresh as the day it was installed. Just so much more durable. I think we'll be ready to replace ours over the next couple of years, but his will last much longer so even though a much higher initial investment it will pay off in durabiltiy. You can always economise on equipment you install as that can be upgraded over time.
We obviously all have our budget constraints, but probably worth stretching yourself on stuff like this, especially if you're not planning to move any time soon. Plenty of independent kitchen designers and fitters out there, and not all necessarily significantly more expensive than the high street flat pack merchants.
Good experience with Wren here. We had a fairly good idea of what we wanted so the design was really a check it all fitted. Our builder installed it and no issues. Price wise it was cheaper than expected with a price match on appliances. Quality wise seems fine to me.
Good experience with Howdens - all done at the end of last year. Complete kitchen redesign (flipped a kitchen/living room around), and did a utility room too. Service was great and we're very happy with the results.
Only challenge was ensuring we had enough time with the designers/reps. They were really stretched, but we got there.
As above, suspect it's very dependent on who you get for your designer and how much time they have.
We used Kingston-upon-Thames if any help. Happy to share any further details if helpful.
Ikea has not been mentioned here. the ikea kitchen I fitted 25 years ago, everything still works and looks fine bar one cupboard door that I have overloaded with weight ( hanging a full size bin off it) and a few chips.
the units were very accurately made and easy to assemble. Just be aware there is no void behind the cupboards
If it makes any difference to you, the owner of Wren Kitchens is a large Tory party donor, and the company has been accused of treating staff badly during the furlough periods:
I wouldn't use them off the back of that, but your views may differ.
Don’t buy from Wren. Absolute junk with a big marketing budget. You think those big shops full of sales people pay for themselves?
Driving up the A1 at the weekend, something big but stationary in the sky in the distance. Turned out to be one of those advertising blimps floating above Wren Kitchens. That says it all for me.
Our builder recommended Dove, who I've been having back and forth with. Fairly happy so far, but I've yet to wrestle even a ballpark figure out of them. Planned it all myself with a 3D CAD model and sent them detailed dimensioned drawings - not the way it's usually done but I want to get it right and I figure sweating the details up front rather than having a vague plan then realising it doesn't work is the way to go. Might not be the approach for everyone though, I admit.
Thanks for the advice, will check out DIY kitchens.
Suspect that "standard" size units will leave us with some awkward gaps, hence wanting someone with a bit of nous involved at some point. The fudging of electrics, plumbing and narrow width appliances that went into the 1990s kitchen we inherited is a nightmare, and that's just stuff we can see!
Howdens is basically MFI. Remember them? I used to work for them briefly. they still use the same factories in Runcorn and Yorkshire.
Things may have improved but there is no way I would buy anything from them having seen how it was made and more worryingly how it was handled before delivery.
A few years ago we had B&Q and Howdens around to "design" us a kitchen. The Howdens bloke just asked us where we wanted stuff and drew it on the plan. He didn't even try and make the cupboard sizes work so we used all the space. He just put 3 standard size cupboards in a row with a big filler panel at the end.
A lady from B&Q had a few ideas of moving stuff to different walls and her design looked good on paper. The problem was it was pretty impractical as the cooker moved to the opposite side of the room so gas and elec needed moving. Some great big pan drawers were placed where the water main was so you couldn't get to it. The dishwasher was against the wall so any splashes would be visible etc.
In the end we just designed it ourselves knowing where the water/gas points were, after all we know how we use the kitchen and we were going to have to pay for the extras like moving gas, electrical work, trimming units etc.
Don’t buy from Wren. Absolute junk
fitted wren to our kitchen 8 months ago. Service was good. Stuff arrived when they said it would , it fitted as they said it would and they listened to what I wanted. I guess if you are relying on them to do the work then you might be disappointed as they just seemed to be moving commodities round the page without thought to how the human would interact with it.
I've just fitted IKEA stuff with worktop express solid oak worktop to our utility room.
The boxes the units came would have made better units than the IKEA shite. It's solid just now. it's just made out of substantially thinner materials -the MDF/ chipboard and hardboard are all absolute minimum it just looks cheap- a few of my doors arrived marked -ikea replaced them but I suspect the new ones will end up the same soon with use. You can pick a full size unit up with one hand. The doors are like wafting paper in the wind.
Won't be doing that again. Amazed they get such a good rep on here. - they ain't even cheap - proportionally the wren kitchen was far cheaper per item.
Fwiw the finish of the wren worktop was much better than the worktop express stuff also. Had to spend a fair bit of time with find grit sander on the worktop express stuff to get close. (3*3m lengths from worktop express Vs 2*4m from wren) so it's not a one off unlucky board.
Tl:Dr don't go for IKEA. I'd have bought wren again but they do have a minimum unit order on their kitchens.
Howdens are good but didn't have a range I liked for my kitchen.
Moved into a house that's had £10K of Wren kitchen fitted a few years back . Apart from the doors which are a bit awkward to pull on (the previous owners choice) still all looks all OK, has been fitted really well (I've had a proper nose about) and works. I've heard some pretty bad stuff about them, but like other's have already on the thread the one in our house is perfectly good.
We went to Wren too. I had a pretty established idea of what i wanted, and a pretty basic room shape so it wasnt rocket science. i was hoping the designer guy would have provided some nifty ideas but he had nothing i hadnt already thought of. we designed the layout, went away, played with it a bit and went back for some amendments and placed the order. We had it fitted by someone else, but any issues wren quickly preplaced any dodgy or misplaced items. The fitter was impressed with them.
I designed ours using the Ikea planner, then took those drawings to Howdens as we liked the style with the aluminium trim*, which their bloke put in their planner.
They still managed to do a crap job on the wall units (gave us narrow ones so the extractor didn't fit) but all sorted in the end.
*everybody is doing similar now I think.
I'm going through the same process, and we're putting the kitchen in a new space so design is really important.
my experiences & thoughts:
i think the kitchens from Wren / Howdens / Magnet are all pretty much of a muchness.
go for solid carcass, not flat pack for the best quality, and the differences are minimal
So, for me it comes down to the designer and how you get on with them. our branch of Howdens were terrible. asking them for things multiple times, poor designs, not taking into account spaces between units and cookers etc, (I had to measure it all out, and worked out they had left 50 cms between a line of units and an island) just really poor.
Magnet (who we've gone with) the designer we got has been superb, loads if ideas, listened to us, was looking at space we had, and instantly discounting ideas due to lack of space.
And, magnet were giving us a real time price, as we added things, changed quality etc, so we could upgrade our worktops as we went. Howdens are really funny about the price, to the point of total frustration.
Magnet, all in all took a 1 hour call, and then 2 hours in the showroom
Howdens, 2 calls, 2 home visits, and two times in the showroom, and we were still waiting for designs and prices.
but, as i say, I imagine it changes based on designer and branch
IKEA kitchen quality is interesting. I fitted the older style without the rail mounting system and with no service gap. It's as solid as a rock 8 years later.
Guess the newer style units have dropped in quality.
Our Wren experience was a real mixed bag. We bought some second-hand excess base units and bits then bought the rest direct. was a mix of their premium and next level down range. The designer was good, the units and bits all fitted, the initial quality looked good - I'm not so sure that at +3 years it'll still be in. We've had to change a few of the premium/next doors on basic wear/chip and hinge issues, and had a dangerous failure of one shelving rack - since removed.
Wren gave me absolutely no input to design a kitchen. I have no idea, I've only ever lived in kitchens other people had designed no never really had thought about it.
DIY kitchen builder tool is good. The prices are good and the quality is good. The durability of the painted finish on the units is piss poor though.
I still made a mistake* on the design that a a bit of help would have helped me avoid though.
I should have moved the sink over a bit, so that the pull-out bin could be on the "prep" side of the worktop. You live and learn.
Our Magnet kitchen is 20 years old. I need to resand and oil the worktops, will probably give them a new rounded edge with a router as they've picked up lots of small dents over the years. Nothing has broken or got damaged, ever cupboard and drawer is fully working with no damage showing at all.
The kickboards are a bit crap (from new) and I have been meaning to replace them for 20 years. I had the pelmet replaced with a solid beech one by a cabinet maker years ago who suggested it when he was fitting some cupboards in another room.
Held up far better than I ever expected.
I'm having a new house build and our builder recommended Howdens as they were relatively local and he'd used them before. The kitchen 'designer' sent us a plan without even consulting us on what we wanted. First problem was they hadn't accounted for a big window. We went back with some further comments with a major provisio being our budget - we didn't want to exceed our overall house price. Week's later, Howdens reluctantly gave us a price - twice what we said we wanted to pay and little scope for negotiation. Some of the prices they charge for soft-close drawers are ridiculous and their worktop and appliance prices are silly too.
We've gone for DIY Kitchens - a big plus is the bigger range of cabinet sizes, tall cabinets go up to 2300mm and with a range of unit widths up to 1000mm so you can use your space more effectively. I've gone for Worktop Express for the work surfaces. Due to delays with the house build, it's finally due to be installed in the next couple of weeks.
and little scope for negotiation.
My S&C coach just bought a kitchen from Howdens, through his builder, they got them to price match DIY kitchens on a similar spec product as it was a lot more initially. Probably depends on the local branch and whatever targets they have etc.
I’ve gone for Worktop Express for the work surfaces
Get plenty sandpaper in.
Willing to bet your fitter won’t sand them they will feel like a day at the beach even after oiling.
Went to Wren, 3 hours of "we would like to put this in" and having "no you want this one" in our faces followed by a "you have to pay 10% today to get it organised and take the plans home". Wasn't keen on the pushyness of the sales person.
Wickes, got our dimensions completely wrong and realised the kitchen wouldn't fit at all, despite us telling them this they wouldn't listen.
Decided to use a local kitchen supplier, they drew up some nice plans but again didn't listen to us on the design front so we use their plans and went to DIY kitchens...
Ordered with them, took around 4 weeks to deliver, they forgot to put our integrated dishwasher door on the manifest, almost 6 weeks later, two wrong doors delivered and several shelves which needed redelivering due to poor gluing. It finally arrived yesterday, don't bother with their soft close hinges either as they are pretty poor.
Kitchens done now fitted by myself, saved us around £6k I think but the quality of DIY Kitchens products was hit and miss. Plus I got to buy some lovely drills for the project.
I used Howdens. Took my own design in and had a chat. Their designer came round to mine twice for final plan. All arrived on time on agreed day no issues. I sourced my own sink, taps, handles. Good service and quality I'd say but depends on how good your branch is.