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Sorry, sarcasm obviously doesn’t make it through the forum without emoji anymore.
It's okay some people got it I'm sure.
On this subject and given some of the arguments people have put forwards? I normally assume tongue in cheek as a safe default in this place but on this thread you’ll have to accept my apologies for taking things at face value.
Some more details on the data in this bbc article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjee04vlqglo
It isn’t as clear cut; the numbers injured in 20/30 limits has decreased a bit but not by that much (only very slightly lower than 2017). Over all roads, in the same period injuries actually increased by a similar factor in the same period (presumably just statistical variation).
Essentially, the decrease in 20/30 limits isn’t so big that the change obviously caused it. More fundamentally, 30 limits were already quite safe, so making them safer doesn’t have a big impact overall on road safety.
Finally to the point that there is no cost, there is. Time is money. If going more slowly cost someone six minutes a day and their time was valued at the minimum wage, then that would have cost them around £400 per year. If that was the average across the welsh population, it would have cost the population £1.2 billion each year. Made up numbers, but illustrate that this is actually quite an expensive policy for those routinely affected.
I’m certainly not set against the policy, but it is worth being aware that it isn’t such a clear win with no downsides as some want to portray.
Made up numbers
predicated on assumptions along the lines of "traffic always flows at 30 in a 30"
Wales’ll have been more than that just because it was more time-critical
What about the far greater amount of signs that need changing?
Even a village with a single road through it would have double the number of signs... Each of which needed changing.
It's the labour cost involved, not just the hardware.
The cost recorded from the Councils' claims on the WAG is £32M, which is a steal compared to the other way of introducing 20mph zones which is to go through an individual consultative and legal process on a street by street basis as towns and cities in the rest of UK still have to do, and are doing a lot.
Anyway: Report from the pubs of South Wales - I've not heard mention of this in a month. The half-life of this story here was passed a long time ago.
@Smiffy, yup it's true. EVERY pub speaks in Welsh the moment I turn up. Every time. It's uncanny.
Just saw a video on a south Birmingham community group of some chap cleaning a dirty 20 sign - it had a lot of likes, I think Birmingham's quite in favour of twenty zones. 🙂
Finally to the point that there is no cost, there is. Time is money. If going more slowly cost someone six minutes a day and their time was valued at the minimum wage, then that would have cost them around £400 per year. If that was the average across the welsh population, it would have cost the population £1.2 billion each year. Made up numbers, but illustrate that this is actually quite an expensive policy for those routinely affected.
Well for one that would mean an actual drop in speed of 10mph over a distance of at least 6 miles.
The problem with that assumption is that 68% of journeys are <5miles.
And most 20 (ex 30) limits are lots of junctions, pinch points, etc. They're not the main urban roads which would mostly have been 40 anyway.
Add onto that "across the Welsh population" needs to include kids in school, retired people, etc who's time has no monetary value in that respect.
And people who don't commute by car who aren't affected.
And it assumes that those 6 minutes are productive, most people work fixed hours so very few would actually leave work 6minutes earlier.
Basically I think your figure of £1.2billion is hugely over inflated.
Also, the effect of smoother-flowing traffic can actually make overall journey times lower. It's much easier to pull out of side roads now, for instance. (Although speeds have definitely picked back up again since the early days, reducing this effect a bit). Cycling and walking short journeys is also easier...
Absolutely agree, great news, but suspect ‘no cost’ isn’t quite right as all those new speed signs and installation will have costed something to someone.
In the Borders they didn't install any new signs, they just had 20 vinyls / stickers that went over the front of the original 30 signs. Still a cost to install but significantly cheaper than producing new signs.
Also, the effect of smoother-flowing traffic can actually make overall journey times lower.
This is very true and very much my experience.
20mph limit saving drivers money
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2025/jan/18/uk-20mph-speed-limits-car-insurance-costs-premiums
I thought I would just pop in to say that I spend a lot of time in Paris for work, and a few weeks ago I had to drive in as I was in Belgium before that in my car. Most of the urban streets I drove were a snail-like 30km/h which is, of course, even slower than 20mph. While the Périphérique was 50km/h. Even my old hometown in Canada (Winnipeg) has reduced many of its streets to 30km/h.
After all the Tory moaning about the retrograde, anti-car, 'socialist Wales', it turns out that we're not even remotely alone. Although not perfect (e.g. I don't think that it is ideal for fuel efficiency), I don't see Wales' 20mph policy as a big deal.
Just saw a video on a south Birmingham community group of some chap cleaning a dirty 20 sign – it had a lot of likes, I think Birmingham’s quite in favour of twenty zones.
Birmingham has possibly the worst driving standards in the country once you're in the clean air zone not so bad but outside this OMG!
I don't find it takes me any longer to get anywhere, my 2.6 mile journey to work which was all 30mph, and is now all 20mph, doesn't take any longer.
Even the 23 mile journey I do once a week, a quarter of which is now on 20mph roads still takes 45-50 minutes as it did before.
I do get a few dodgy overtakes on 20mph roads but more often than not, I catch up to the overtaker when we get to the next tractor/cyclist/set of traffic lights.
Birmingham has possibly the worst driving standards in the country
Have you ever driven in Bradford lol!
I was in Wales for a short break in November last year (Holyhead) and I must admit I do like the 20mph limit. I'd be happy to see it expanded throughout the UK.
Also, the effect of smoother-flowing traffic can actually make overall journey times lower. It’s much easier to pull out of side roads now, for instance.
I'll counter that because anywhere near a busy time just leads to long continuous queues of cars with no gaps to pull out into. Luckily there's a lot of drivers in Wales that will slow to let you pull out, but if you are a pedestrian that doesn't happen and crossing the road actually seems more problematic unless you wait for ages, although any resulting injury should be less I suppose.
Yeah I agree with that actually, it's the one thing that I don't like about our 20 scheme, on the main road it makes crossing especially in the dark bloody awkward and there's just not <quite> enough crossing points (or rather, the road shapes mean they're quite unevenly distributed). The better traffic flow makes for less gaps. And I suppose that'll probably be worse in places where the 20 was brought in by the bulk change rather than the individual planned change that brought about mine.
I suppose it's offset a bit by the whole walking experience being generally nicer, sidestreet crossing is easier, less noise and rush but if you have mobility problems it's got to be a pain.
Notable watching bike race coverage in many European races from the helicopters that many European countries have zebra crossings every 50m or so across most principle roads in built up areas, very different to UK. That's partly due to huge cost of UK crossings compared with Europe where we insist in connecting them into electricity for Belisha beacons, whereas in Europe it's just paint. There are trials with belisha-less 'informal' zebras underway in north Cardiff, although these currently side road junctions rather than across the main roads themselves.
There are trials with belisha-less ‘informal’ zebras underway in north Cardiff, although these currently side road junctions rather than across the main roads themselves.
Aren't these technically superfluous, as pedestrians have the right of way at such junctions (they can continue walking parallel to the main road, across side roads) ?
Aren’t these technically superfluous, as pedestrians have the right of way at such junctions (they can continue walking parallel to the main road, across side roads) ?
I reckon if they did a study, a large proportion of UK drivers would say "Yes" to US-style Jaywalking Laws...
"Bloody pedestrians just crossing the road!"
Aren’t these technically superfluous, as pedestrians have the right of way at such junctions (they can continue walking parallel to the main road, across side roads) ?
Yes, but I think it would help if we started updating road markings to reflect that. It's a double edged sword because then you get "but the crossing wasn't marked". But I think anything that goes towards making car's seem lower down the hierarchy of road users is a good thing. You should feel like you had to drive your car through the street, not have the street set up to make the car the default.
Start re-painting give-way lines as zebra crossings. And stop putting the dropped Krebs 10m back down the road, put them at the mouth of junctions where you can actually see and be seen by traffic.
I reckon if they did a study, a large proportion of UK drivers would say “Yes” to US-style Jaywalking Laws…
Surprisingly, those same laws actually define pedestrian crossing places quite loosely. It's not everywhere, but it's not limited to marked crossings. e.,g. a junction is a pedestrian crossing whether it's marked or not.
many European countries have zebra crossings every 50m or so across most principle roads in built up areas, very different to UK
In France, drivers are not obliged to stop at crossings, they are there to indicate to pedestrians a safe place to cross. So that makes a difference. Too many actual UK style Zebra crossings could really stuff up traffic flow if there are a lot of peds, because they force the traffic to stop. I'm not trying to be pro-car but there needs to be a balance. The ad-hoc method we use now where peds wait for a gap works better in many cases I reckon.
Noticed quite a few 20 limits in the rural villages of Wiltshire. Nice to see, must make the village a bit more pleasant.
Large parts of Southampton are 20mph now, not that you can tell since 90% of the drivers carry on as they did before and there is no enforcement!
Although not perfect (e.g. I don’t think that it is ideal for fuel efficiency),
It's better
Thw RAC tried to show that 20mph cost more fuel. They managed to do it with a lot of cherrypicking but had to admit that fir the vast majority under normal conditions 20mph limits save fuel
I'd wager that i've gone through more fuel efficiency testing data than the RAC, hell, i've probably done more testing *myself* than the RAC.
Fuel efficiency is still better at 20.
Unless you drive like someone who needs their licence taking off them yesterday. And probably drive like that in a 30/50/70 as well...
While the Périphérique was 50km/h
On a good day with a following wind you might get to 40kph in my experience it’s so busy.
I get down to Wales once a month or so and it does appear to me that general speeds in 20mph have crept up a bit since the blanket 20mph in urban areas was introduced. Still traffic is noticeably slower than in English 30mph zones.
Although the variation in speed limits 20/30/40 is just weird in places. In my F-I-L. village the 20mph starts 100metres after the local kids playground.
My average mpg per tank has dropped by a couple of m's.
It would be great if I could cruise around in 4th but generally I can't and end up sitting in third gear - unless I engage dynamic mode which eats a bit more fuel anyway, or use v-power to get a little more torque low down.
v-power is more fuel efficient anyway but for some reason the surcharge from e10 to v-power is very steep locally. I've tried Texaco premium but that doesn't have the fuel efficiency gains.
I’m not trying to be pro-car but there needs to be a balance. The ad-hoc method we use now where peds wait for a gap works better in many cases I reckon.
Thats not balanced - thats directly prioritising car use in urban and suburban environments. Why not make car drivers wait for a gap in the pedestrians? Makes sense especially in rainy environments.