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Nightmare to work out , follow signs,follow streetlights within 200 ft of each other ,god knows
Follow the signs.
Yes I thought that and did ,drac bit of a nightmare I'd say longterm
Everywhere that I drive in a 20 zone in the borders seems very straightforward. Just do what the signs say
It’s fine. There are signs and car satnavs are being updated (my id3 now knows the correct limits everywhere)
It’s time to move on and just ignore those who have their knickers in a twist about it.
Edit: and to add; I’ve just come back from the Peak District and 30mph in some built up areas feels outrageous.
Everywhere I've driven in Scottish 20mph it's clearly signed. And my jaunt to North Wales a couple of months ago was also pretty simple.
What issues did you have specifically?
Lack of signage for me was lacking ...I'm all for a drop in the speed limit to save lives/injury but needs to be straightforward ...info on gov Wales isn't fully clear either
Ignore me..... Wrong thread 🤦♂️
Is it not the same rules as before for a 30mph limit, just with 20mph instead?
If in doubt do 20
In many cases 20 is a more appropriate speed in urban areas anyway.
But people will not do less than the posted speed unless the danger impacts them directly (ie corners and direct frontal impact)..... Pedestrians to the most part are secondary to their important journey it seems
Lack of signage for me was lacking …I’m all for a drop in the speed limit to save lives/injury but needs to be straightforward …info on gov Wales isn’t fully clear either
Seems pretty obvious to me. If it looks like it *was* a 30 limit you drive at 20 until you see a sign saying otherwise.
It's very obvious if you're in a village or town. However the sections of road that connect towns needs improving, long sections of road between adjacent villages are often without any signs
I live in Wales and while I'm definitely strongly in favour of the 20 limit, I would definitely agree that the signage could be much better. Broadly speaking, I'd just follow the signs, it's what I do. Some councils have been better than others at either getting roads upgraded to 30 and actually putting the right signs up.
Seemed fairly easy last week.
Drive to the border, get out my ks1 maths course book*, check I could identify the number 2, continue following the road signs.
It's exactly the same as in England, except there's not 20mph repeaters anymore. Just as in England there aren't 30 repeaters, but there are 40's, 50's etc.
The more surprising thing was that most people seemed to be sticking to it, included the "roided up valley boys" someone was scared of in the other thread 😅
*Any other 80s Welsh kids remember Martha Marteg the mouse?
Took a bit of getting used to when we were over there last October, but it was great both as a driver and a pedestrian.
thisisnotaspoon
Free MemberIt’s exactly the same as in England, except there’s not 20mph repeaters anymore. Just as in England there aren’t 30 repeaters, but there are 40’s, 50’s etc.
Exactly this. If you think of it as a "change from 30" then I guess maybe it's reasonable to expect more signs to tell you "this isn't a 30". But if you think of it as "the default is now 20" then it's literally the same as it was before, just with 20 instead of 30.
Assume 20, unless it say's otherwise. Still some poor driving going on - I was tailgated this weekend because I was doing 20 ! Guy was waving his hand at me.
Rural welsh dweller here...what is so difficult? The default in built up areas is 20. If another limit applies there will be signs. Many of these 20 zones already existed outside schools before the recent law.
Fantom ,it's simple if your a local and you have all the info through your letterbox and on local news but as a visitor it's not very clear
Fantom ,it’s simple if your a local and you have all the info through your letterbox and on local news but as a visitor it’s not very clear
It's literally as simple as follow the signs? Which bit was difficult?
The only exception to the English side is if you can't see a repeater sign then it's 20 rather than 30 (assuming you've just pulled out of a driveway into a built up area).
And why do we need another thread about it, ffs?
We still have towns and villages with 30 painted on the roads and 20 signs, which does seem to confuse some folks. Consider the red/white circular roadside signs to be the actual legal limit and the road markings just as "information" and you'll not go wrong. Same goes for those "Max speed 40mph" type signs you see coming into some sharp bends. 😉
but as a visitor it’s not very clear
Tbh if you can't understand simple speed limits maybe you shouldn't be driving?
It's exactly the same as before voodoo.
30mph sign as you enter a limit. Streetlamps (or repeaters if there are no lights) maintain that limit until you get to a NSL or a different limit.
In Wales, its now just 20 instead of 30. Same rules.
We still have towns and villages with 30 painted on the roads and 20 signs
Around here we have that but the 20s are green(advisory)
Seems People want to do 50 though so the nunber in the circle only serves to determine the number of points/prison sentence if the worst happens.
Streetlights and no sign = 20
Sign = whatever number is on the sign
End of.
Thank you molgrips
Two dogs .. well done 👍
You're welcome...and i was being serious
And why start a second thread? Its been done to death on the other one.
Tbh if you can’t understand simple speed limits maybe you shouldn’t be driving?
If it is that simple, why would Mark Drakeford, the driving force behind the 20mph.limits, state that anybody who was 'genuinely confused' would not be prosecuted?
It doesn't really matter what he says, as he's not in charge of enforcement, that's the job of the police. And ignorance of the law is no defence.
I totally agree, it just seems a bizarre and very strange thing for a first minister to say.
As has been mentioned, once you are used to 20 limits then 30 feels nuts. So just drive around 20 in built up areas, problem solved. Everyone is safer and less stressed, good things all round. TBH most people float around 23-25 on the speedo a lot of the time, but that's a lot better than 35.
👍
Thanks all for the advice
If it is that simple, why would Mark Drakeford, the driving force behind the 20mph.limits, state that anybody who was ‘genuinely confused’ would not be prosecuted?
Because either:
A) he's a politician and likes his approval ratings even if he is planning to leave.
B) Knows that if there is a "genuinely confusing" set of circumstances like the signs were wrong then it wouldn't stand up in court.
I'm genuinely confused how people find the whole shebang confusing though.
So just drive around 20 in built up areas, problem solved
Spending more time driving through Wales the last few months. Cardiff is a pleasant place to be now, bigger roads are still 30 and residential streets just feel chilled out
Having driven from Chester to Cardiff via welshpool there were a couple of places where the transition from nsl to 20 felt a bit abrupt, I think there should a be a transition zone rather than dumping straight from 60 to 20.
There were also a one or two sections the 20 zone extended to far up a "big" road once the houses were gone. That wouldn't have been too bad at 30 but felt painful and unnecessary at 20.t
The idea of d fault 20 is one I fully agree with. Just needs a few tweaks in some areas.
My main problem was actually trying to second guess/overthinking whether the 30 signs meant 30 , or if it should be 20 but the sign hadn't been updated.
Can’t trust the satnavs yet, last time I looked CoPilot was completely wrong and Google maps is wrong a lot of the time.
there’s a few places, such as in the Afan valley, where the roads were 40 in areas that should have been 30, and they have remained at 40, which now feels quite wrong.
If it is that simple, why would Mark Drakeford, the driving force behind the 20mph.limits, state that anybody who was ‘genuinely confused’ would not be prosecuted?
Because one of the main arguments against the limit was that they were just trying to raise money from fines. That statement undermines that argument.
My main problem was actually trying to second guess/overthinking whether the 30 signs meant 30 , or if it should be 20 but the sign hadn’t been updated.
How could they ever prosecute you for doing 30 when there's a sign saying 30? Signs are definitive. If it says 30 it's 30, obviously.
I drove through Hereford yesterday, 30 felt way fast. Even though the A49 would have been a 30 in Wales anyway.
It’s literally as simple as follow the signs? Which bit was difficult?
Driving with due care & attention?
Seems to me that the OP is someone else publicly announcing themselves as not fit to be driving on our roads, this move to 20 in Wales has enables hundreds of others to also do the same, based on seeing videos/comments on other social media platforms.
It was the same in the Borders when we moved to 20's a couple of years ago - a pal of mine said he ignored the 20's everywhere, I said to him that if he has an accident in a 20 then we'll all have to assume he was speeding.
"I drove through Hereford yesterday, 30 felt way fast."
Jammy git - how did you manage that? Or was it kph?
( I feel the same in Midlothian which is a 30mph island between Borders, Edinburgh and East Lothian. I wonder if the camera van that is often in Pathhead is getting less income now?)
Jammy git – how did you manage that?
Ok. not all the way through.. just parts of it, I admit the majority was about 5mph.
This thread has gone predictably.
Well done OP it takes a good dose of humility to admit your failings.
I'll be the black sheep in this thread and say I think the constant changing of speed limits, enforcement of yellow boxes by cameras, road closures enforced by ANPR at variable times, modal filters etc are making driving incredibly dangerous even if you intention is to stay within the law. It means the driver is constantly distracted, constantly forced to change lanes and has to look at their phone the whole time, as it's impossible to navigate cities without one.
It's enough to give even the sharpest of knives ADHD. I have no idea how drivers of goods vehicles cope. In London particularly, every time you are about to turn right you have to spend a good few seconds checking that an LTN hasn't been added to your turn, before pulling out across oncoming traffic and through a bike lane.
It means the driver is constantly distracted, constantly forced to change lanes and has to look at their phone the whole time, as it’s impossible to navigate cities without one.
It doesn’t at all. Just check signs, check road markings and your phone shouldn’t be within view.
I won't deny I find lots of changes of speed limit a minor nuisance, especially when road signs disagree with google map as to what the limit is.
But I'm baffled that anyone could think it's "incredibly dangerous".
Can’t trust the satnavs yet,
has to look at their phone the whole time, as it’s impossible to navigate cities without one.
oad signs disagree with google map as to what the limit is
I find this really quite concerning. My OH is just as bad for doing it, we had an argument driving back from the black country when I googled the route and told her to take the 5th exit on the roundabout for the M42 South. She panicked and took the 3rd exit to flip knows where because she can apparently neither count, read signs or follow road markings anymore and needs to stare at the little car on the phone to figure it out.
Get your eyes up off the phone and read the ******* road! There's hundreds of signs you need to pay attention to, and if you're not spotting the speed limit ones, and the ones with the names of places/roads you're heading for then what else are you missing? I think the general decline in drivers ignoring zebra crossings is down to the fact their reliance on their phone means they ignore anything that isn't actually a red light. That's the obvious symptomatic one, but I guess they probably also have their blinkers on for the ones indicating footpaths / cycle paths / bridleways crossings etc which are of no consequence until you get a headline "pedestrian hit by car on A66" and everyone goes why where they on a DC? having been oblivious to the hazard signs for years
It means the driver is constantly distracted,
It's literally the opposite, they are having to pay constant attention! People usually get killed when the driver is stuck inside their own head, which is why (counter intuitively) removing barriers, lights and kerbs improves road safety in urban areas.
This sort of thing is frustrating because traffic engineering is at the kind of scale where quantitative analysis works really well. If a practice / approach / idea improves or impairs safety / capacity it shows up clearly in data. Things are the way they are because it the evidence shows it works. You only get disasters when someone (usually local politician) decides their intution (aka whatever they've pulled out their butt) trumps data.
I’ll be the black sheep in this thread and say I think the constant changing of speed limits, enforcement of yellow boxes by cameras, road closures enforced by ANPR at variable times, modal filters etc are making driving incredibly dangerous even if you intention is to stay within the law. It means the driver is constantly distracted, constantly forced to change lanes and has to look at their phone the whole time, as it’s impossible to navigate cities without one.
Good to see another driver admitting they're not fit for driving.
And how do you think we managed to "navigate cities" before SatNav's?
et your eyes up off the phone and read the ******* road! There’s hundreds of signs you need to pay attention to, and if you’re not spotting the speed limit ones, and the ones with the names of places/roads you’re heading for then what else are you missing?
So is that advocating old school navigation where you need to effectively draw up a route map of all the towns and roads you need to follow, because your destination town won't be signposted until late in the journey. Then you have a scrap of paper to keep glancing at to see what to do at the next junction, and if you take a wrong turn you need to stop and either turn around if you can or pull over, get the paper map out, work out the new route and update your scrap of paper.
Using a modern satnav on your phone is much safer if used correctly - placed in the corner of the screen it is viewable without interrupting your view of the road (integrated in the central console is a different matter) and gives audible instructions anyway so you don't even need to look at it, you have an ETA which keeps reminding you that speeding to get there faster is pretty pointless as it makes no difference, if you miss your turn for some reason or the road is congested the satnav will reroute you and so there is less stress about making a mistake and you can pay more attention to the road, etc.
Obviously you need to be aware of it trying to route you through unsuitable roads and the inaccuracy of its speed indications, but now you have the option of refusing to go down a road because you don't like the look of it, knowing that the satnav will suggest something different, all leading to less stress and more concentration on the road.
living in Scotland and working in Wales I do have some sympathy with the OP in certain areas, around Sandycroft area there is a real mixture of 50,40, 30,20 limits going up and down often on the same road so you do have to concentrate on what limit actually is and not always "obvious" or intuitive. Thats my opinion anyway.
thisisnotaspoon Free Member
It’s exactly the same as in England, except there’s not 20mph repeaters anymore. Just as in England there aren’t 30 repeaters, but there are 40’s, 50’s etc.
Are there repeaters in 30 zones in Wales now then?
"It’s enough to give even the sharpest of knives ADHD. I have no idea how drivers of goods vehicles cope. In London particularly, every time you are about to turn right you have to spend a good few seconds checking that an LTN hasn’t been added to your turn, before pulling out across oncoming traffic and through a bike lane."
Plus add the school roads that close during the day, add winter rainy driving in heavy traffic, and little signs. Nightmare
The satnav is not definitive. The road signs are.
I agree that fluctuating limits are annoying and confusing in places, but that's something that councils will fine tune with time. Als0 - if in doubt, 20.
I've only skimmed the last page of this but there's some right sanctimonious ar$es on display in this thread.
Mixed opinions in this thread then
So is that advocating old school navigation
Yes and no, yes to the extent that I'm not convinced a lot of people can drive anymore without the sat navs intervention.
Even this thread about something else is has people moaning that they can't tell if a road is closed or not without *checks notes * "checking" [the real world out the window]
I used to drive a lot for TV work and hated my phone with a passion. Everything from the not always clear sat nav directions, to the constant work notifications, to the torture of watching a 5hour drive drop down minute by minute.
Nine times out of ten, even with no real idea or planning I could get within a few miles of the destination without the phone, just a sense of direction and rough idea which motorways / main roads it'd need. Infact most journeys it wasn't needed at all because most cities signpost you to the major car parks. Only needed to get it out if the destination was a street address.
Using a modern satnav on your phone is much safer if used correctly –
"If used correctly" is the part doing all the heavy lifting there.
It's not that people shouldn't use satnav, it's that they're becoming so reliant on it they're not actually observing what's going on arroud them because they expect the satnav to know.
Mixed opinions in this thread then
.. there's also a subtext of blumming Welshies and their rules, how dare they be different!
We have lots of 20mph zones where I live in West Yorkshire, they're not that difficult to drive through. You just look out for the signs on the road... like your supposed to (Hardly anyone slows down to 20 which is a different issue).
You just look out for the signs
onbeside the road
FTFY!
ours have been vandalised by the people who want to make progress
And how do you think we managed to “navigate cities” before SatNav’s?<br /><br />
Ahh the good old days before we had cycle lanes, bus lanes, restricted timed access, etc etc.
Mixed opinions in this thread then
That feels like a bigger stretch than a NSL sign tantalizingly far from the last house leaving the village.
"Even this thread about something else is has people moaning that they can’t tell if a road is closed or not without *checks notes * “checking” [the real world out the window]"
The B road I travel every day has about 3 miles of Road Closed signs on it. Along with a couple of frankly stupid signed diversions. If you look at it on Google Maps, the actual diversion you need to take is the back lane past the village, adding about 100 metres to the journey.
I’m not convinced a lot of people can drive anymore without the sat navs intervention.
Or sometimes the opposite. Someone stopped me the other day and asked for directions to a small street that I didn't know (this is a modern development which is all cul-de-sacs off cul-de-sacs so if you have no reason to go down one you don't know it's there):
Him: Do you know where Blablah Street is?
Me: No, sorry I don't. Do you have a phone?
Him: Oh.. yes.
Me: Best use that then.
Ahh the good old days before we had cycle lanes, bus lanes, restricted timed access, etc etc.
Nope, those things existed then too - mainstream Sat Nav hasn't been around that long and personably I didn't have a car with a built-in unit until 2016. Commuting-wise I used a motorbike, too dangerous IMO to run one on these.
Nine times out of ten, even with no real idea or planning I could get within a few miles of the destination without the phone, just a sense of direction and rough idea which motorways / main roads it’d need.
This. I only set the car Sat Nav on journeys so it can tell me of delays that might be of interest. Does my OH's head in that I actually ignore it's directions (have the sound off) as I've a pretty good idea where I'm going (use to cover +40k pa with work back in the day, UK & Continental Europe).
https://www.highwaysmagazine.co.uk/Casualties-fall-by-28-after-Wales-20mph-limit/14174
28% cut in casualties in Wales since the 20mph policy
But how many gearboxes have been trashed because they just weren’t designed to work at 20mph?
I'm going to estimate it at somewhere between zero and none.
If a driver can't drive their car at 20mph without wrecking the gearbox they really shouldn't be driving.
But how many gearboxes have been trashed because they just weren’t designed to work at 20mph
That often trotted out counter to 20mph is just utter twoddle. So, to answer. None.
Even if there were some truth to it, how many gearboxes is saving a life worth?
But how many gearboxes have been trashed because they just weren’t designed to work at 20mph?
None, gearboxes aren't designed to work at specific speeds, that's the whole point of a gearbox shirley?
The actual headline is a pretty positive one, funny how car pricks always seem to miss the main point about fewer lives being lost and less serious injuries happening on the roads...
I’m surprised this isn’t all over the main news channels. From my perspective it seems a huge success to have a reduction of 28% for no cost and many other more subtle benefits such as noise reduction
Absolutely agree, great news, but suspect 'no cost' isn't quite right as all those new speed signs and installation will have costed something to someone. However, despite me hating the extended length of time to get through a location that is now a 20, I think they are a very good thing. I've clearly not quite adapted to leaving 5 minutes earlier for each 20mph zone I need to pass through, I don't speed but it does annoy me it takes longer.
For no cost is not true at all.
Counter this with how many lives are lost because the Welsh NHS is so cr8p and waiting lists are too long.
Road signage is a one off cost. Fuel and NHS savings are ongoing so it’s probably a cost saving!
DickBarton
Full MemberAbsolutely agree, great news, but suspect ‘no cost’ isn’t quite right as all those new speed signs and installation will have costed something to someone.
Yah but it's much less than you'd think, because all road signs have a lifespan anyway. I've lost the report now but the real cost of adding dual language gaelic signs in scotland was a fraction of the headline cost just because they had to have teams going out and inspecting signs and replacing damaged or worn ones anyway so it wasn't that much more to actually change them out. Wales'll have been more than that just because it was more time-critical but actual signage is really pretty cheap once the posts are in.
It won't be zero cost but it'll be small potatoes compared to the cost of crashes, going by these figures. Though give it a while and I'm sure there'll be a contradicting report.