[Closed] Driving Ban.

Presume for drunk in charge? Harsh lesson, 12 or 18 months? No flames from me, only positive is you're gonna get fitter than ever before!

Yeah that's a hard lesson.

You're right don't have them on your person or to hand otherwise it shows an intention to drive.

No flames here, a lesson for all to heed. Hope the ban doesn't cause too much of a negative impact for you, a harsh but understandable punishment unfortunately.

Seems a little over zealous police work? There must have been others in cars kipping too? And assuming you're at an event you weren't blocked in by others? Just seems odd you were targeted in such a way? What was the police's cause for concern initially?

Was in the car sleeping and argued with the car park attendant. Police picked
me up a mile away but I had keys on me. I had no intention to drive.

Yeah everyone after the fact said over zealously. Every single copper I’ve seen since (and at the desk said they would have just sent me off to bed.

Was in the car sleeping and argued with the car park attendant. Police picked
me up a mile away but I had keys on me. I had no intention to drive.

I'm puzzled you were a mile away from your car?

Was in the car sleeping and argued with the car park attendant. Police picked
me up a mile away but I had keys on me. I had no intention to drive.

Not sure I understand? How did you get a mile away without driving?

Assuming you didn't drive that mile drunk then yeah that sucks for you. We've got a camper and used to have a few drinks before getting to bed, but very careful now not to just in case.

Parking attendant asked you to move car, so you moved it 1 mile a way whilst drunk and then the Police found you asleep?

Or you never drove the car anywhere and the Police just knocked on the window randomly because you were parked up asleep somewhere you shouldn’t have been?

Doesn’t make sense

Sounds very harsh. I've been at events before where stuff has been left in the car for security, including the beer, so have been in and out of the car regularly.

Or walking home after a night out. My house keys are on the same fob as the car, which I pass on the road and at times have even opened to get something out.

I've always assumed the attitude test would apply which may be what caused the problem (with the CP attendant) but am I wrong?

Were you just walking with the keys on your person or had you driven a mile and pulled up to have a kip?

This could be a tea and biscuits post. I know at festivals they get moody if you kip in your car, why I don't know? If you did move it then sorry sir you are bang to rights, if not the WTF!

As a camper van driver I’ve always been careful with this.
Luckily my current van has a safe under the bed where the keys go and I just keep the fob on me to lock and unlock the van.

Seems an odd description though of the OP situation. Did you drive drunk or just asleep in the car ?

Is it illegal for a drunk person to have car keys on them?

Is it illegal for a drunk person to have car keys on them?

No. I think there may be some parts of the story missing..

If you didnt move the car that is harsh. As you were at a mtb event as well so I guess sleeping in a car would be kind of expected.

I would seek advise from a lawyer as to me it wouldn’t be drink driving. I’m no expert though!

Probably still pissed. (-:

I can kind of understand it but it seems harsh to me. Guy I used to work with got done the same way years ago (or at least, that's what he claimed...) so it's not a new thing.

How did your car get a mile away? So police found you with the engine off and keys in pocket, but had strong reason to suspect that you'd just driven the car while over the limit? Can't say I'm unsympathetic to them doing you for Drunk in Charge if those are the circumstances, apologies if that's not the case.

mark d - are you ok? You're posting history suggests you are having a really tough time.
I get the feeling there's more going on here than your first post tells us.

Does feel like a more coherent and fulsome explanation is required.

mark d – are you ok? You’re posting history suggests you are having a really tough time.
I get the feeling there’s more going on here than your first post tells us.

Good point Matt well put.

OK, to wade in without full information in the traditional STW way... 😉

It could be interpreted that OP was going to sleep off a couple of drinks in their car in a carpark.

Carpark attendant tells OP he can't sleep in his car.

Discussion follows.

OP leaves car and sets off walking (complete with car keys).

Carpark attendant rings police with description, police pick up OP, complete with car keys, and asks him to blow into this please sir.

OP (in the eyes of the law) is drunk in charge, does seem more that somewhat harsh to me though.

Mark, have you been convicted and sentenced or are you just at the charged stage? Did you get legal representation. As presented in this thread you have a defence to the driving charge (which carries automatic disqualification) and possibly even defence to the lesser drunk in charge offence.

Just a quick hijack, but whats the law regarding a camper van or motorhome ? Say for example your parked up for the night on a site, get pissed and fall asleep. Would you still be committing an offence? Or parked up in Scotland on a wildcamp, still applies ?

For an offence of drunk in charge, there is a statutory defence if you can demonstrate that there was no prospect of you driving whilst still over the limit.

Just a quick hijack, but whats the law regarding a camper van or motorhome ? Say for example your parked up for the night on a site, get pissed and fall asleep. Would you still be committing an offence? Or parked up in Scotland on a wildcamp, still applies ?

Not sure about the law - but to give context tens of thousands of law abiding people do this every day without prosecution. I guess visible intent to stay would be a mitigating factor - kettle out, bed made, seats swivelled if that is a thing i.e. the vehicle is in 'camping mode'.

Wombat - those circumstances would not amount to drunk in charge IMO. Not even being in the vicinity of the vehicle, and walking away from it doesn't suggest intent to drive.

Even being in the vehicle you could try to defend it and demonstrate you had no intent to drive, depending on where the keys were. eg If you're lying on the back seat in a sleeping bag, and the keys are in the glovebox vs Drivers seat, keys in hand or in the ignition, bang to rights

It's certainly something camper van and car-kippers need to be mindful of, particularly if parked up on or adjacent to public roads.

A camper van on a campsite? Doesn't scream 'intent to drive' to me, and if it were charge-worthy, the coppers would have a field day at most sites most weekends.

whats the law regarding a camper van or motorhome ?

Decent summary here:
Link

Be VERY careful.

P.S. My brother got done for DIC years ago when sleeping in the back of his car (in a sleeping bag). If they want to get you, they will.

I agree Martin, however, parked at the side of a scottish highland road for the night and break out a bottle of red... wonder if that would land you in trouble.

One of my site agents got convicted of this couple of years ago. He went out and got pissed, couldnt get back to his digs, so slept in the back of the van, but left the engine on to "keep warm". Got convicted and banned.

We got trapped in a huge traffic jam on a one-track road in the Lakes, caused by a camper van that shouldn't have been there - one of the wide-bodied type. It was causing absolute chaos so my brother got out to suggest to the driver that he pulled over at the first opportunity to let all the traffic clear. He came back to say that the driver was an Australian, was as sloshed as a sloshed thing and the dashboard was full of empty beer cans. If anybody had had mobiles at that time and had called the Police, they'd have needed a motorbike or a helicopter to reach the place.

amongst some other offences....

@jekkyl 🙂

also +1 to the are you OK..... but some things don't seem to make sense.

So OP was sleeping in his car and was told he couldn't by the CP attendant. Words are 'exchanged' and the OP moves on (let's assume w/o car - if it's in car then all's different)

CP attendant presumably phones the police and reports what? That a drunk was sleeping in his car but now has walked off.

The police catch up with OP a mile away with car keys but no car.

Not making sense bit......

- surely being a mile away from the car and walking away from it is a clear absence of intent to drive? And is holding the keys while a mile away still considered 'in charge of'

- would the police really scour the streets (at a mile radius by now) to pick up someone who isn't driving while drunk. They couldn't be arsed to turn up when a neighbours house was being burgled - priorities?

- how deep do they look into the story; maybe cross words were exchanged with the CP attendant but is that all it takes in the way of evidence? There's a bloke at work i don't like, I know he likes a drink at weekends, he also has a car, can i phone the police and say I saw him sat in it earlier even though he wasn't going anywhere and expect them to investigate that?

I can't imagine a lawyer would find it hard to pull on some threads here.....

Hmmmm......

I thought about it with my camper for about 30 seconds.

How ever as there's no access from the back to the front seats I'm happy enough to not think about it any further.

Putting the keys in the boot would make no difference in most cars these days. Should we take the batteries out?

Not sure how putting the keys in the boot helps...so you put the keys in the boot....have a nap for a bit then decide you might want to drive still under the influence, it's hardly a barrier to go and retrieve the keys out of the boot.

Basically they're saying you cannot be drunk in your car. Ever. Under any circumstances.

or near it. Or a mile and walking away from it.....

With camper vans, the advice I've seen is if the driver's chair is spun around to face into the van, then there's clearly no intention that you're going to drive any time soon. I agree about not keep keys on you and put them in the little safe we have. Hope Mark is alright.

I read it that he argued with the car park attendant and the police overheard him from some distance away, not an actual mile away, so never moved the car at all.

Shit luck dude, seems very harsh.

Or the car park attendant called the police to say he thought the OP was going to/had been driving?

I agree Martin, however, parked at the side of a scottish highland road for the night and break out a bottle of red… wonder if that would land you in trouble.

Certainly hope not, We do that frequently. Park up off the road / in lay-by / not in a passing place and settle down for the night. Our driver's seat doesn't rotate but that's where the dog bed & dog heads for when we are parked. Passenger seat rotated and camper van into evening mode - lights on, curtains drawn and podcast on the bluetooth speaker and share a bottle of red. Tend to keep the key in a wee holder / pot thing so not in either of our possession.

If the police were to come knocking and both I and my partner were in the van, both of whom are insured to drive the vehicle. Are they going to arrest us both? How would they decide who to arrest / who was in charge? Most probable thing to happen would I just offer the police a cuppa and talk about our weekend canoeing / hill walking / biking plans...

My understanding is you should not be in the drivers seat with the keys if you have had a drink. You can be in the drivers seat with no keys or in the passenger seat with the keys and still be OK.

I could well have been at risk if some of these cases apply. Been to no end of festivals with hundreds of cars and even bike races and had a few afternoon beers then gone back to charge a phone or even have a warm in the car/van. Will be very aware from now on.
Edit
In fact even when family camping on a campsite I've charged a phone before which needed a key on the ignition.

As ^ , this is everyone ever at some point at a camping bike race. (unless they are proper athletes and not drinking at any point over the weekend, but I don't know any of those... 🙂 )

OP - this seems very harsh. Can you prove your intent to sleep in the vehicle? Sleeping bag etc. Did your blood alcohol level equate to being under the limit at a reasonable time to drive the following morning? Ie all proof of your intent?

OP said 'police picked me up a mile away'

Or the car park attendant called the police to say he thought the OP was going to/had been driving?

and that's enough to get someone charged? I mean, I've heard of people phoning in saying that someone is or was about to drive while UI, but the police still need to catch them at or close to in the act surely.

(is it time for the apocryphal tale... where someone phones the police and informs on the man who is about to drink drive home from the pub. The police park up outside and watch a man stagger out, drop his keys three times, fall into his car, stall it twice, and then eventually weave off up the road where they follow him for a minute or two and then pull him over. Only to find he's sober as a judge, just a good actor. Meanwhile, back at the pub the car park has mysteriously emptied as everyone makes their way home in the other direction)

On the occasions I've done cheeky roadside sleeps in the campervan, I've always made sure that the keys are in one of the storage boxes that live a good way under the folded-out bed. I've no idea if this would be any real defence in law, but I figure it's about the best I can do to show I've no intention of driving.

Hope you're okay OP.

If the police were to come knocking and both I and my partner were in the van, both of whom are insured to drive the vehicle. Are they going to arrest us both? How would they decide who to arrest / who was in charge? Most probable thing to happen would I just offer the police a cuppa and talk about our weekend canoeing / hill walking / biking plans…

... and then all his clothes fell off.

Tend to keep the key in a wee holder / pot thing so not in either of our possession.

I hope you wash your hands before driving off.

Op needs to come back and clarify if he was in fact driving pissed so that we can all vilify him for doing so... or not. Seems to me that he was caught trying to nap after driving it away from the carpark after not being allowed to park there by the attendent and after drinking. Came on here seeking sympathy for a situation where he is in fact or might not be guilty. Right?

I’m going to assume op had an argument with the parking warden, was kipping in the front seat or just in the car, warden has got a strop on cos he won’t move and phones the police knowing what the end result will be. OP clears off on foot knowing he’s DIC, police go for the easy nail knowing he will be close. The little hitlers all have body cams now so evidence won’t be an issue.

Parking warden is a weapons grade **** .

Op needs to come back and clarify if he was in fact driving pissed

Seems to be the case from the original post that he wasn't - kind of exactly the point of his post was that he wasn't. I think its misconstruing of his later posts that is leading people to question whether he was.

Context is possible everything here. Camped out in some far flung field having had a nightcap (whist admiring a man in uniform who's come a knocking and coquettishly glancing at the array of car keys in a penis beaker full of wee) its hard to construe any intention other than to stay put. Suffuencetly rat-arsed and argumentative in an urban context and occupying a motor vehicle it could be argued that you are too drunk to know what your intentions are, or to abide by them.

Parking warden is a weapons grade **** .

the one you just made up? i think the facts are pretty thin on this thread...

Wow....that is the equivalent of jumping (off Beachy Head) to conclusions!

It sounds like quite bad luck for the OP to be honest.

It has actually got me thinking (if a little off-topic). I suffer from ocular migraines - and once I had an attack towards the end of bike ride I had driven to the Peaks for. I got back to the car, slung everything in the back ASAP and then got into the drivers seat, reclined it and had an extended kip until I was 100% sure I could see properly to drive. I have also had this happen to me at work and had to do the same thing.

Obviously it is illegal (and stupid) for me to risk driving when I can't see properly - but could I be in trouble as a result? Could an over-zealous police officer construe me as being in charge of the vehicle whilst in an unfit state to drive. Or is it only the actual driving when you are incapacitated by illness that is the problem whilst being 'in charge' of the vehicle is only a problem if you are under the influence?

Or you could ignore me for going off-topic - and I hope the OP is OK.

Obviously it is illegal (and stupid) for me to risk driving when I can’t see properly – but could I be in trouble as a result?

The key difference is that you're not drunk. You are in charge of the situation and in your sober state making sensible decisions about whether to drive or not. In that state you're judgement isn't impaired - your're not going to forget, or stop caring, or fail to recognise that you can't see and just drive off.

There are dicier scenarios - people going into diabetic coma don't necessarily notice that its happening for instance. But even then its an act of omission rather than commission.

Seems like sleeping in the car, attendant doesnt like that and the OP walks off without the car. Attendant calls police and he is charged.

If its the above challenge it.

Paring Attendant after the cash reward for dobbing in drink drivers? easisest £250 he's ever made if this still exists
2 actual events come to mind , 1 in reference to the above
Ex colleague was a habitual drink driver , he used to drive approx 500m to the pub , get hammered , drive home. His defence, its only 100m of public highway , the rest is a private road. Got dobbed in ,police watch him stagger to car and follow him home . He got banned but for refusing a breath test as he was on a private road.POlice disagreed and he got 12mth ban
His solicitor beleived he could have got him off if he had given a breath test as the police didnt see him for the entire duration of the event. . but that could be bs

Second one was simiar to the OP
Brothers house sharer was sleeping in his MR2 and had been drinking , he somehow managed to use his knee to turn on the sidelights so got caught . Went to court and he got away with it whether he had keys on him i do not recall.

Until OP returns and clarifies exactly what happened this might be considered by some to be a troll.

What did go on? Until we know that, we are all talking blind. And why won't OP reply to his thread.

As Talulah Bankhead used to say "There is less in this than meets the eye".

Never drove the car.
Sorry, only just got back as been working.

And have you been seen with girls of the night?

Mark. Hope you are ok.

If I've now understood this right, you hadn't driven the vehicle, but were sleeping in it at a festival, and then walked away after an argument? I think it's ridiculously harsh to then do you for DIC.

I know there are very few defences but this sounds like a malicious act by the parking attendant. I'd hope a decent solicitor would at the very least try and ensure you got the minimum sentence even if you are found guilty.

Seems like this situation is not what the law intended to catch

I agree with the above, it sounds ridiculous.

On the "in charge" thing. A colleagues son is diabetic and has been advised that if he ever has to administer insulin whilst driving then the keys should get chucked in the back until he is capable again.

Never drove the car.
Sorry, only just got back as been working.

That charge sounds highly suspect then. Clearly no intent to drive if you are a mile away on foot. Get some decent legal advice.

For clarification. My car was already in town after a we went out to dinner the night before.
I rode my bike to a pub and had too much to drink. I left my bike at pub because I had too much to drink. I went back to my car as had money in the dash so I could get a cab. Fell asleep in car. 1st Carpark attendant knocks on window, ‘you ok mate’? Yeah mate, is it ok if I leave this here again, how much? No probs mate, . 2nd carpark attendant with him says ‘have you been drinking ‘? I suppose I shouldn’t have said ‘ what the **** does it have to do with you? I’m not going anywhere, I’ve already said I’m leaving it here’.
I didn’t drive it to the venue and didn’t drive it after. I was just in the car and probably shouldn’t have argued with the attendant.
Police obviously followed me on CCTV on way to cab rank at the train station and I was picked up a mile away from the car that I hadn’t driven. As keys were on me they arrested me.
I’ve been on a drink driving awareness course and I think it is something that should be taught in schools. A lot of people on the course were caught the morning after a night out, or sleeping in their car etc. Was just passing on the word that hopefully other people may be more educated.
I have been on countless camping/ festivals etc and slept in car and not given it a second thought, now I will and hopefully I’m passing on a message to others to be careful.
Yes, I am ok, and so is my partner. Thankyou for asking.
I do use this as a sounding board as it’s better to write things down than to act upon thoughts.
Hope I’ve cleared a few questions up.
Regards

tough break

Definitely get advice. They are basing the charge on the say so of nobody in any particular authority. Who actually in hindsight didn't even see you driving. I'd definitely be if the mindset of "see you in court"!

My solicitors were very confused as to whether to plead guilty or not. In the end I just went with what they said. Police / solicitors/ judge even, said that they had to stick with letter of the law. He gave me the minimum ban he could possibly give and a very small fine. I was lucky.I’ve taken the lesson, I have served my ban and I thought I would reflect on it and hopefully shed some advice.
With everything going on it has been a very tough few years but hopefully on the way up now.
Sorry if I ramble, but this forum really is an outlet for me.
Some of the things I write I completely understand that I’m open to trolls and bullying but I don’t really care, it’s better to write things down and get it off my chest.

Oh right, it's all done and dusted? Bloody hell, that's harsher than harsh. Unless there is a new offence of drunk in charge of a set of car keys which I don't know about.

My sympathies Mark, you didn't need this on top of everything else.

If you haven't already been convicted definitely see a lawyer who specialises in motoring offences.
Technically you were drunk in charge, but according to the link above your actions should give you the defence "of not having any intention to drive". Good luck anyway, from you description of events it doesn't sound like you had any intention of DD so you shouldn't be convicted of it.

Edit.
Just seen the OP's last post 🙁

I’m open to trolls and bullying but I don’t really care

And ultimately those kind of people's opinions aren't worth the effort it takes to read them.

That seems awfully harsh, yes you were in the car asleep never drove it and then left it there. Seems incredible with that story they successfully prosecuted you. I can't stand drink drivers but that is pretty unbelievable.

Martin. One of the guys on the course was done for walking his motorcycle back from the pub. Have to put keys into ignition to unlock the steering.
Education is key.

 One of the guys on the course was done for walking his motorcycle back from the pub. Have to put keys into ignition to unlock the steering.
Education is key.

He certainly left himself open to prosecution there !!! Why not just lock it and leave it at the pub.

Wow! That is pretty tough on all counts - from the bother of tracking you to be able to arrest you through to getting a ban for it. Do you mind me asking, what's the minimum ban you can get for DIC (I assume, as you never actually drove it?)

Harsh not least 'cos I assume you now have a record, insurance premiums, and so on.

Your experience has been a veritable learning experience for me. I just looked it up on line and it's a tough law, couple of things stood out....

1/ to be drunk in charge you have to be

• over the legal limit for alcohol (in the blood, urine or breath)
• and in charge of the vehicle;
• and the motor vehicle must be in a place to which the public has access.

I don't know what 'public has access' means - clearly covers public spaces including car parks but what about the grassy field at a 24 hr MTB race? Even my front drive..... I don't live behind a wall and gates?

and 2/
<h2>Are there defences available?</h2>
The law states that someone cannot be convicted of an “in charge” offence if they can prove there was no intention and / or likelihood of the vehicle being driven whilst the driver was over the prescribed limit.

Unlike many other offences, with the offence of being drunk in charge, the accused must prove that they did not have any intention to drive the vehicle. The prosecution is not required to prove that the accused was likely to drive whilst unfit or over the limit.

- so burden falls on you to prove you weren't going to drive rather than the other way round. Which if you're drunk, I'd assume they can say that judgement was impaired and you could make a bad choice irrespective of any previous or prior good conduct...that's a tough one to take too.

Even my front drive….. I don’t live behind a wall and gates

But the public don't have access to your drive (technically). Yes they can come onto your drive but they do not have the right of access over it.

A few years ago I read about a teacher in Wetherby (nr Leeds) who had gone to get school work out of his car for marking but because it was parked on a public road (right outside his house) he was convicted. I assume he wouldn't have been had it been on his drive?

the accused must prove that they did not have any intention to drive the vehicle. The prosecution is not required to prove that the accused was likely to drive whilst unfit or over the limit.

Walking a mile away from the car towards a cab rank could be deemed a pretty compelling argument.

The solicitor certainly sounds confused, to label it generously. But I can understand that with everything else going on, OP just wanted it over and done with.

And the police wonder why the public don't like them much and would rather point and laugh at them when they are getting beat up struggling to detain someone than come to their assistance.