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Was talking to my son about use of mobile phones and fines for it, after seeing loads of people driving around whilst looking at phones in their laps.
I realised that a far better deterrent than points and a fine would be immediate confiscation and destruction/recycling of the phone. I know there aren't many police around to enforce it but I'm pretty sure that some people would rather lose an arm than lose their phone.
That and snipers in trees for people who litter (I picked up a carrier bags worth on a walk up do dove dale this morning) would soon have the place sorted 😂
I think both (all three); fine, points, phone is destroyed.
Cry me a ****ing river if it's on contract.
fine based on affordability is better. Remember that for some people these devices are largely disposable and for others are a major investment
that and death of course
Always wondered why cars cannot have phone jammers fitted. If the technology exists?
Always wondered why cars cannot have phone jammers fitted. If the technology exists?
Passengers, navigation, (currently) legal hands free use...
Perhaps you haven't heard of passengers?
I would make you use the phone as a key to start the car and then be blocked once the engine start.
I was driving up the M1 today and saw a van veering about the place, drifting out of his lane etc. As we passed him I said to Mrs OS and the Skipperlets "Have a look at the driver of that van, I'll bet you £100 he's on his phone".
Unbelievably I lost.
The bloke was eating his bloody breakfast - cereal, out of a bowl, with a spoon, while driving. I kid you not.
Always wondered why cars cannot have phone jammers fitted. If the technology exists?
retro fitting would be expensive and probably easily bypassed.
Plus the various legal uses mentioned by others. Getting rerouted to avoid an road shutdown is rather useful.
Whilst rather unenforceable I think destroying the phone and then requiring the offender to use an oversized heavy one which would be impossible to use whilst driving would be amusing.
I don't know about destruction but appropriate means for blocking the number and IMEI for an appropriate period. With the number going straight to voicemail explaining why the call cannot be connected. Allows messages to be collected from a voicemail box and also gets the message out that phone use is not acceptable.
6 points should be disincentive enough from the points PoV - particularly for young and newly qualified drivers 6 points is a ban. And then fines based on disposable income, unlimited. It has to hurt a millionaire as much as a teenager.
Nearly got taken out recently on a roundabout by a female driver applying mascara as she drove. WTF
Litter - yes. Howl of outrage yesterday as I saw 15 helium balloons released into the air from a local garden. WTF.
after seeing loads of people driving around whilst looking at phones in their laps.
as i understand it that's not technically illegal, as its not being held. it may fall under careless driving though
Our car was written off by a van driver with his phone on dash looking at sat nav, that's what he told police. Just shot out of side road into the side of us, if I was cycling I d probably be dead.
It was a big company owned van, I hope driver got some training.
<p>Wonder if the AI cameras trialled here will become more widespread:</p><p> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-66508840 </p><p>Just wish the punishment for actions like those in the second photo were more severe. Think everyone convicted of using a mobile whilst driving should be made to watch this video from Durham Constabulary (warning it has distressing scenes):</p><p>
</p><p> </p>
Like all driving penalties I think we should have a mandatory immediate ban from driving
3 points 1 week
6 points 3 weeks etc
people think the privilege is a right
Its not the phone thats the problem its the car. If you apply that logic to the example above you'd punish the van driver eating his breakfast by confiscating his cereal bowl. Take the car away (or rather the right to drive it), they can use the phone for calling a taxi.
Like all driving penalties I think we should have a mandatory immediate ban from driving
3 points 1 week
6 points 3 weeks etc
people think the privilege is a right
Indeed - I don't really see the point in points. I think short bans would be much more effective- much more equitable than fines.
I think @jp-t853 has a great point there;
"Like all driving penalties I think we should have a mandatory immediate ban from driving
3 points 1 week
6 points 3 weeks etc"
Can anyone think of a reason why something like this would not work?
Can anyone think of a reason why something like this would not work?
I think the tricky bit is enforcement - when was the last time anyone checked you were actually eligible to drive your car. I think for me maybe two or three times in the last 30 odd years in random roadside stops and checks. If you were suspended for a few weeks how would that suspension be monitored or enforced?
If it's on their lap they need a mount according to STW:
https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/what-phone-mount-for-use-in-a-car/
Mine goes in the boot unless I need satnav in which case it goes in the drink holder.
I think that as with most motroring offences it's not a question of needing stricter rules but enforcing the existing ones.
Indeed
Deterrence is on the risk of being caught not the level of punishment if you are caught. 6 pts is a fairly hefty penalty
Yep, we need proper enforcement of existing rules before looking at any new ones.
I’ve seen it so many times recently, from the obvious to the phone in hand below the window, do they think folk are looking and thinking they must have a seriously interesting interior on the door?!
I just can’t understand why folk need the phone that much, mine is locked in the centre storage, if a call or message arrives, the Bluetooth tells me, I mostly forget to connect it anyway, 30-60 minutes without a phone isn’t life changing
Perhaps you haven’t heard of passengers?
You've certainly heard of sarcasm.
I don't know how people can drive and operate their phone. It takes me all my mental thought process to work out how to use the thing and it's quirks, let alone pay attention to the road etc!
On my commute the last month or so I've seen a remarkable increase in people scrolling. I think it's kind of inevitable as people become more addicted to their phones. At least in summer the window is often open to give them an earful
Always wondered why cars cannot have phone jammers fitted. If the technology exists?
I just can’t understand why folk need the phone that much, mine is locked in the centre storage,
See, there’s this thing called satnav, and while I’ll happily concede that many cars today have satnav built in, it’s frequently lacking in detail and regular updates. My phone has TomTom installed, which gets regular updates, at least once a month. I can set up my required route before I leave the house, then plug the phone into the car’s USB port when I start it and the route automatically starts giving me directions. If there’s nothing on the radio I want to listen to, I select the phone on the infotainment screen and if I’ve had music playing, it picks up where I left off via BT, with the phone still in my pocket.
So why would a phone need to be locked in the centre storage instead of just leaving it in your pocket, where it’s unlikely to be forgotten when you park the car and walk away?
I don’t know how people can drive and operate their phone. It takes me all my mental thought process to work out how to use the thing and it’s quirks, let alone pay attention to the road etc!
Now ask the same question about the integrated systems on large touchscreens that many cars have fitted these days. I’ve driven quite a few, and frankly they scare me. You’re all going on about punishing people for using a mobile phone while driving, why aren’t you saying the same about car systems? There’s no significant difference between them as far as I can see, especially when some are centre mounted with no information in front of the driver, and even simple functions like demist, heating, radio/infotainment have to be accessed via multiple stacks of menus on a touchscreen out of the driver’s line of vision. How can this be considered safe?
Answer, it can’t and isn’t. They’re a massive distraction, even the minimal options on my car’s touchscreen using CarPlay are a distraction, which is why they’re very seldom used, my EcoSport is largely analogue, a major factor in why I bought it, along with comfort and an ideal driving position. Plus it looks good and is pretty zippy, but the fact it has actual dials, and rotary controls for radio and aircon, along with push-buttons for secondary controls means I can alter settings by touch, without taking my eyes off the road.
Some manufacturers seem to be realising that touchscreens are a colossal ergonomic failure and backpedaling on their installation, but many others aren’t, and EV’s just encourage them.
They can, and do fail - what do you do at 70mph on a motorway late at night when the entire full-width screen in front of you goes black? I’ve seen it happen, fortunately at work, before the car was put up for sale. It required transporting back to a main dealership, I’ve no idea what happened to it afterwards. Imagine it happening to someone who bought it, late at night with the family in the car.
I think I see as many kids riding along on their bikes looking at their phones as i see car drivers now.
Perhaps not as potentially catastrophic, but certainly bloody dangerous. Maybe if there was good education and disincentives (although I think it's a $1000 fine here and it doesn't seem to stop people) for young people they would learn the issues young...
It's rife, see it all day every day from my truck cab as I can see down into cars so putting it on your lap won't hide it. Plenty of truckers on their phones too which car drivers cannot see!
The issue is that there is no enforcement whatsoever as far as everyone is concerned. Traffic duties are moved to the Traffic Wombles (who do a great job at what they can do) and that means that no police cars are patrolling the main roads and motorways. Add in that any police that are about are stretched to well beyond the limit and it is indeed a free-for-all out there.
As for the 'infotainment' in cars? Just as dangerous as phone use judging by the way cars veer around as the driver is changing the settings from what I see daily.
Snipers are a great idea...but who'd clean up the bodies?
ur car was written off by a van driver with his phone on dash looking at sat nav, that’s what he told police. Just shot out of side road into the side of us, if I was cycling I d probably be dead.
So you want ALL sat nav's banned as well?
It'd nothing to do with the phone, it was s**t driving.
Always wondered why cars cannot have phone jammers fitted. If the technology exists?
Because only drivers are in vehicles...
Nearly got taken out recently on a roundabout by a female driver applying mascara as she drove. WTF
I once saw a car (that I wrongly thought was on a fixed tow-bar being towed by a truck as it was so close) with the driver shaving at the wheel.
Snipers are a great idea…but who’d clean up the bodies?
Leave them in tbe gutter as a warning to others
Now ask the same question about the integrated systems on large touchscreens that many cars have fitted these days. I’ve driven quite a few, and frankly they scare me. You’re all going on about punishing people for using a mobile phone while driving, why aren’t you saying the same about car systems? There’s no significant difference between them as far as I can see, especially when some are centre mounted with no information in front of the driver, and even simple functions like demist, heating, radio/infotainment have to be accessed via multiple stacks of menus on a touchscreen out of the driver’s line of vision. How can this be considered safe?
+1
On the iX nearly everything was controlled from the touchscreen, even the climate control and it was a bloody nightmare to use on the move so I just set it to minimum and left it there for 2 weeks.
Once everyone has ULEZ compliant cars, then there should be no need to touch a phone? win, win
Oh and why can a driver have cig in a car, never understood that one.
You make good points about screen based cars, Countzero. Mine is at the same level as yours and the screen only gets used when there are two of us in the car - I even find it a distraction when Madame is using it and have to make an effort to keep my eyes on the road not her faffing on the screen. The screen is currently so covered in finger prints and dust it's unusable without moving directly infront of it.
I went to have a look at a potential new car and couldn't help thinking "this is a step too far". It used to be a case of "where's the button for x ?", now it's a series of menus and trying to hit virtual buttons that have to be looked at rather than felt for, and in a complex order. A phone is in your hand and your forearms are fixed when you use a keyboard, it's easy to hit the right key - but a touch screen, no way. Nothing to hold on to just an arm waving as the car sways and joggles around. And no two cars are the same.
I realised that a far better deterrent than points and a fine would be immediate confiscation and destruction/recycling of the phone.
And/or car or licence(?).
I went to have a look at a potential new car and couldn’t help thinking “this is a step too far”.
I rejected a hire car at Barcelona for this. I got in and spent 5 mins trying to work out how to just turn down the volume of the radio, and the tornado a-like air-con setting down a bit. The touchscreen was to me at least; a jumble of icons and sub menus, admittedly if my school-boy Spanish had been better I might have been more speedy, but ultimately I didn't think it was safe to drive through the centre of Barcelona.
Compulsory cameras inside all vehicles, focused on the drivers lap ,then live streaming to billboards along the roadside. 😆 🤣
Compulsory cameras inside all vehicles
I do think internal CCTV should be a thing.
Some cars have built in Dash Cams now, but internally focussed ones would be much more useful, to be able to review if the driver was being a **** in the lead up to a bump.
Closed to the user obviously, no delete functionalisty, accessible by insurers and police. If tampered with or removed, presumption of guilt.
@theotherjonv Is it not a ban and compulsory retest for 6 points in the first two years?
On a tangent, people should never be allowed to escape a ban based on totting up - if they’ve had at least one opportunity to change their behaviour and haven’t taken it, then tough bananas Julio.
Had a guy recently close pass me whilst shouting into his phone held up in front of his face. When I inevitably caught him up I mentioned this, his response "a du wot'a **** want"
Destroy the phones!
+1 on phone use in cars seems to be growing - and that is phone to ear. Last night I pedalled past a tractor with 18 ton bales on a trailer in heavy traffic - driver on phone to ear....
I also agree that totting up = ban, no excuses at all allowed.
I also think that the 'aggravating factors' get totted up and more than two = ban. So if you are speeding and not insured you get points and fine as usual. However speeding, no insurance and no MOT = ban and car taken to be sold for taxpayers pot.
A months take home pay as a fine. Should be enough to pay for more enforcement officers.
Fines without the means to prosecte are meaningless. Low levels of policing plus a stretched judicial system means the current chances of getting caught a very low.
Allow a percentage of the months fine to kick back toward joe public for fliming evidence suitable for prosecution and the whole dynamic suddenly swings towards being likely to get caught.
We used to do it for dobbing in drink driving.
No difference in my opinion judging by some of the knobs who stare at their car door handle whilst doing 30 past a school at 3pm
Oh, that is the other one. Any ban = retest at your expense too.
No difference in my opinion judging by some of the knobs who stare at their car door handle whilst doing 30 past a school at 3pm
Or those who sit in the left hand lane of the motorway at 70mph oblivious to anything going on around them, because after all they are doing the speed limit
Phones is an easy subsect of poor driving to target. Just being a shit driver so much less so
I would make you use the phone as a key to start the car and then be blocked once the engine start.
I currently have three phones. How's that going to work?
The bloke was eating his bloody breakfast – cereal, out of a bowl, with a spoon, while driving. I kid you not.
I once saw an 18-wheeler weaving about the place. When I passed him, he was reading a newspaper.
People, man.
Can anyone think of a reason why something like this would not work?
Realistically what do you suppose would be the odds of people thinking "it's only a week, I'm unlikely to be caught" and carrying on driving regardless?
Compulsory cameras inside all vehicles, focused on the drivers lap ,then live streaming to billboards along the roadside. 😆 🤣
Pornhub is on the phone.
You make good points about screen based cars, Countzero.
We discussed this at length a few weeks back. I am the first person to advocate technology and I think touch screens in cars is idiotic. You can get points and a fine for fiddling with your phone, yet it's perfectly fine to be seven levels deep in a built-in menu whilst doing 70 in the third lane. It wouldn't even be so bad if they weren't universally shite.
The touchscreen was to me at least; a jumble of icons and sub menus, admittedly if my school-boy Spanish had been better I might have been more speedy, but ultimately I didn’t think it was safe to drive through the centre of Barcelona.
Sounds like the car I had in Spain. After a bit of wrestling I made it into the settings menu and changed the language to English.
Courts are very wary of the impact of sentencing on the families/dependents of defendants - hence the high number of drivers still on our roads who retain their driving licence having exceeded the points tally.
The cost of living crises means that for a lot of families a short ban might mean the difference between eating/not eating, paying rent/not paying rent, etc... due to the behaviour/offending of the breadwinner.
those who sit in the left hand lane of the motorway at 70mph oblivious to anything going on around them, because after all they are doing the speed limit
Assuming it's clear ahead, what's the problem with driving 70 in the left lane? Undertaking?
Pointless doing a driving ban, I got 3 weeks ban for a broken wrist plus a heft fine for leaving the car in the car park.
As a tandem stoker its very interesting looking into cars. Drivers with dogs on their laps. Chatting on their phones or texting from their lap, eating, drinking, lighting cigarettes. So many are just treating a drive out in the car as an extension of being in their comfortable armchairs at home.
I have waved at drivers on their phones before now, as though I was a friend, neighbour or relative, maybe not a good idea as it confuses them even more.
A few years ago a friend was taking me out for the day, we set off driving and within a minute she picked up her phone and started to text. I snatched her phone, screamed to stop and I got out of her car. Luckily I wasn't far from home.
Bunnyhop, did you keep her phone with you? 🙂
I was out walking the dog with my girlfriend a few weeks back and as we stood at a zebra crossing waiting for the traffic to stop before stepping out, a car just rolled straight over it. The driver was sending a text message, holding his phone on front of his face resting his elbows on the steering wheel. He didn't look left or right and I don't think he even realised he'd just driven over a crossing. Unbelievable.
The cost of living crises means that for a lot of families a short ban might mean the difference between eating/not eating, paying rent/not paying rent, etc… due to the behaviour/offending of the breadwinner.
I've got very limited sympathy for this.
What if they crash into the breadwinner of another family.
What if they crash and kill themselves?
Does the same sentencing guideline apply to domestic abuse cases?
If you can't drive, you shouldn't be driving.
fine based on affordability is better. Remember that for some people these devices are largely disposable and for others are a major investment
That's non sequitur. They've already afforded the phone. The financial impact of the punishment is whether they get a cheap <£50 handset from cashconverters to replace it or another £1000 iPhone.
Same could apply to the car really. 12 points and the car gets crushed might focus some peoples minds.
I’ve got very limited sympathy for this.
I'm not convinced it's true.
The courts will a) follow guidelines and b) go "what happened last time?" if there aren't any. The notion that you can come up with some random bullshit excuse about a driving ban being a bit inconvenient and get away with it is a nonsense. Exceptional Hardship is a plea, but "exceptional" is the crux there and anyone with a successful plea will be looking at massive hike on fines instead the ban.
Politicians aside, anyway.
One from CyclingMikey. Some car display touch devices come out worse than a hand held phone for reaction times.
Have to say I try to stop now if I need to interact with the sat nav. I should set up voice control but I hate talking to gadgets.
https://twitter.com/MikeyCycling/status/1693178286678130794?t=-bUMz6BUvYEQVSrWVoSP-Q&s=19
"...figures from the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) show that nearly 9,000 drivers still hold a licence despite exceeding the 12-point threshold. Britain's worst offender to still be legally permitted to drive has 68 points but a further six have more than 50 points and 39 have between 30 and 50 points." stats from 2021
I'm not sure how you get or afford insurance when you have excessive points?
One from CyclingMikey.
What's the source for that graph?
I’m not sure how you get or afford insurance when you have excessive points?
Rich people exist. And influential politicians. Which is often the same thing.
It'd be interesting to see who those people are.
Ah, I've just seen the flyspeck font.
The report it's here (55 pages):
On the iX nearly everything was controlled from the touchscreen, even the climate control and it was a bloody nightmare to use on the move so I just set it to minimum and left it there for 2 weeks.
“Hey BMW , I’m hot”
“Hey BMW , I’m cold”
“Hey BMW, set temperature to ……”
“Hey BMW , open driver/passenger/rear window”
Technology is a wonderful thing if you know how to use it properly 😉😁
I’m not sure how you get or afford insurance when you have excessive points?
AFAIK there's a market agreement between insurers that the current insurer will always provide a price to cover the risk. That's not to say it's cheap. Or that the cover is anything other than basic (lower than third party only). But at least it's there.
In that part of the market, premiums are up-front as well. And (believe it or not) I think the general idea is that they are reasonably good risks to insure. This is all anecdotal info from some brokers I used to work with who dealt in the "non-standard risks" (i.e., shit) motor insurance world.
“Hey BMW , open driver/passenger/rear window”
.....at which point the windscreen wipers come on full tilt....
I was on the inside lane of the A56 on my way to work a few years ago when a girl (probably early 20’s) overtook me at 70mph+ with her phone balanced on the steering wheel. She was happily texting away or updating her Facebook status or whatever.
Just further up the road it bends round to the left, she was too busy on her phone to notice, drove straight into the central reservation then bounced, spinning, off the Armco on both sides of the road, unbelievably not hitting any other vehicles.
Me and another bloke stopped and got her out of the car, she was actually ok, then phoned the police and an ambulance. When they turned up, we both gave statements saying she’d overtaken us both while happily texting away, phone balanced on the wheel. No idea if they did her for it
This is what was left of the car
…..at which point the windscreen wipers come on full tilt….
err, no they don’t, the window opens as instructed. The current BMW EV voice activation is as good as it gets, in my experience, even gets the weegie… 😁
The current BMW EV voice activation is as good as it gets
I bet it still doesn't understand "turn the left indicators on"
Keva
Free Member
Bunnyhop, did you keep her phone with you? 🙂
No I threw it into the cup holder. She came to look for me later. She had no idea why I was so cross. After explaining that being a cyclist we are vulnerable road users and she was not paying attention to anything on the road. We're still friends, however, I'll never get into a car with her again.
Earlier this year I was waiting at a zebra crossing for a Mum with toddler and push chair to cross when I was hit by a car from behind.
I was absolutely shocked that the driver hadn’t seen my trace r rear light pulsing on daybright and when I questioned whether he was on the phone, got very aggressive and abusive towards me.
The Police weren’t interested as I didn’t have video footage even though I had an independent witness (the Mum)!
Texting.
This is something the old Nokia phones did better than today's generation of phones.
444 2-6 666-66 6-999 9-2-999
Or...
444 222-2-66-8 8-2-555-55 66-666-9 444 2-6 3-777-444-888-444-66-4
All done without looking at the screen.
Easy.
All of this properly. First whack up the fines substantially. Proven use of phone like this is 10k quids. Plus smashing phone, public notification of this and 5 year driving ban. I would argue that if kids are in the car it is a safegaurding incident and if a business vehicle the company is penalised as well. Same sort of thing for speeding . Lets say 1k for every mph plus 10k for every point of licence. This would very soon allow for a paid, self funding motoring police force. I could have taken in a good 100K in my 10 minute walk this morning on quiet, rural roads . Just heard half a dozen speeders as I type this.
Stuff hardship. This is a deliberate action as you chose to get in the car. Give it a few years and people would soon toe the line.
I would go with the imobolising trick. We managed to get from A to B before phones quite happily. No excuse that one.
I cycle quite regularly from home in Surrey into London and the number i see using phones is astronomical. It's all ages, all colours, all creeds, both sexes and when acknowledged they are always in the right or abusive!
Cycling Mikey does a good job on YT, but on this topic i'm slightly to the right of Genghis Khan! If caught there should be a fine and an immediate 12 month ban no excuses. Caught again? A larger fine and a 2 year ban. Sadly though, with the police cuts you never really see a traffic police officer any more. I have seen cameras that try and detect mobile users at lights etc, but no t often and have no idea how successful they are?
We've all had near misses on this forum or know of people who have had worse due to the selfishness of people who cannot literally leave their phones alone for an hour. I'm amazed at the number of drivers who do not use the Bluetooth function that comes with the car. Using your mobile or other device or messing about with whatever can be fatal and for what? Totally avoidable and unnecessary.
a far better deterrent than points and a fine would be immediate confiscation and destruction/recycling of the
phonecar
fixed that for you
a far better deterrent than points and a fine would be immediate confiscation and destruction/recycling of the
phoneperson
Fixed that for you
Fine a percentage of income and a years driving ban.
Driving back through the 'Derbyshire Dales'on Bank holiday Monday we were catching up to a big 4 x 4 type car weaver along the road, on closer inspection there is a 'stick' hanging out of the driver's window. It turns out to be a go-pro type 360 degree camera. This idiot is driving, one hand on the wheel, wibbling all over the road and filming. Absolutely bellendery at its finest, a complete danger to all other road users.
Yesterday I saw a woman applying mascara, eyes on her vanity mirror while driving over a narrow bridge (one way system with traffic light), huge car, own reg, so easily to identify. Completely selfish, stupid, idiotic road user.
My ultra responsible daughter has an app on her phone which senses movement and will not allow her phone to be used , by any one , while she is driving. Just saying .
Sadly though, with the police cuts you never really see a traffic police officer any more.
The new AI roadside cameras will catch them though
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-66508840
Had a guy recently close pass me whilst shouting into his phone held up in front of his face.
off on a tangent but anyone who takes a call in this fashion shouldn’t be allowed out in public.
Banning people from driving doesn’t work if there is no clear way to enforce it. Guy that drove in to my house was already banned. I see that worked out well. I’d vote for community service cleaning out sewers.
The new AI roadside cameras will catch them though
Genuinely happy to see technology being used this way.
I expect the biggest barrier to this being in widespread would be the number of people needed to validate the results before sending a nip.
Steady ramp up with the fines paying for more infrastructure?
Won’t happen though, not on a run up to an election. War on motorists they will say.
It's not only technology.
I cycled past the traffic in Rusholme and there was a person marking uni exam paper on the steering wheel.
It will be comforting for their students to know how carefully their work was marked.