[Closed] Driving advice: leaving a gap - only a fool breaks the two second rule?

I agree, folk just do not do the reasonable gap thing, especially in bad weather.

I try to leave a gap but often it is less than advised, certainly in bad conditions. As you say when you leave a gap someone fills it. Too many cars on roads designed for less traffic with an extremely outdated rail network.

I always give a little extra gap for bigger, faster sports cars.

i quite often recite the 'only the fool' rhyme in my head and back off if I'm a little close. Nobody else ever bothers but I'd rather I had the distance that didnt, irrespective of anybody else.

I us d to be an instructor and used "only a **** hits the car in front".

Dint forget, you ideally want that two second gap front and rear. If you've not got it behind, compensate by making it bigger in front.

Good luck making it work though. That 50 limit on the M1 has people driving with slightly more than a cars length between them.

This is a great way for people to demonstrate what stupid, selfish twunts they are.
Of course, they're like this all the time, but driving is one of the rare chances they get to endanger your life with it.

APF

I've pondered this too. It occurred to me if people roughly doubled the gap to be closer to what the Highway Code recommends, we'd effectively half the capacity of our roads at peak time. Then what would happen?

My car has a pop-up display that shows the time gap between me and the car in front. Clearly that demands research:

On the M27, wet or dry, a gap of anything over 0.65 seconds is deemed by the majority of drivers to be fair game to the extent that they won't even indicate when pulling OUT into it - regardless of difference between their speed and mine when they pull out

Even a single flash of indicator allows instant access to the "gap" even when below the 0.65 second mark. (Note that this flash may be activated once the maneouvre is in process or even completely retrospectively with no change to the absolute priority of the driver in making progress)

Pulling IN for, say, a slip road exit, all bets are off and any gap's good, I imagine even if it's a car-length and definitely when you're braking sharply at the same time (indication optional here (and rare), except for the bird which is a mandatory post-manouvre action)

Two rear end shunts on the A9 around Perth/Dunkeld today. Neither serious happily but was good for showing the kids why you need the gap. Was the fatal on the M6 near Kendal?

For clarity, I'm not claiming perfect STW Driving God status here. Tails accurately summarises my own approach too.

Just interested in other people's opinions and approaches.

Fatal on M6 southbound between jct 39 & 38 Shap and Tebay.

I find if you're on a single carriageway road leaving a proper gap will inevitably mean the person behind will start trying to "hurry you up", and driving even closer, so you end up in a vicious cycle. If I'm driving it's in a van, so to some extent I can just ignore them, but in a smaller car it could be intimidating.

I think this is a subject where a bit of public education about how big a safe gap actually is would pay off enormously; I think most people just don't know they're doing anything wrong...

Typically it seems to be people who live their lives 10 minutes late 🙁

I try to leave a suitable gap...probably not as large as the recommended highway code distances, but a decent amount.

Problem is that people just use it as space to use as they see fit and fill it.
I end up having to constantly adjust for other people being morons and using the safe gap I've created to get that bit closer to a slip road etc.
Either that, or people tail gate me because there's space in front and presumably they want me to fill it, even if it makes no difference to journey times...

Just stay on the first lane there is about a 200 minute gap because every muppet with less brain cells than wheels heads straight to the overtaking lanes because they're the fast ones

I'm keeping two chevrons apart.

Especially when driving past Frodsham.

What I don't get is the ones that follow for miles, but never overtake...
I had a car follow all the way today, at a couple of car lengths, from Pitlochry to Shloct(?) Summit, where they overtook at 70+ in the outer lane of slushy snow, having not edged past at any of the dual areas before...

It occurred to me if people roughly doubled the gap to be closer to what the Highway Code recommends, we'd effectively half the capacity of our roads at peak time.

On the other hand mind, a lot of the accidents and near misses and the traffic jams and congestion they cause would be avoided, so throughput would be greatly improved...

stay in the outside lane at 70 mph nobody can overtake you then legaly,works foir quite a few muppets who have progressed from the middle lane at 60 mph

The radar cruise on my V60 will maintain a 0.75 second gap, which is slightly-more-than-average distance for the M25. People just pull into it, and some drivers will actively undertake to fill it up if they judge that I'm not tailgating the car in front.

My feeling is that if Volvo think their car can safely maintain a 0.75 second gap in the dry, then who am I to argue? It's jumped on the brakes fairly aggressively at times but hasn't gone into the back of anything (yet).

Two seconds is an enormous gap on the motorway and I only drop back to it if there's heavy rain.

IMO, leaving a gap is less about being able to stop (although at some point that IS useful) but much more about opening your vision up. I would say 99.9% of drivers i see day to day are completely re-active, rather than pro-active. As a result they tend to simply drive into bad situations that with more visibility and observations are blatantly obviously unfolding!!

I am obsessive about a decent gap which causes all sorts of rows with passengers. There is no excessive. Fill that gap and you are a complete s+++. If some one does I back off. If I am tail gated I cap the brakes left footed until the s behind backs off. I like to think that they think I am trying a bit of a deliberate accident. There is no bloody excuse and failure to maintain that gap whatever the situation makes you a antisocial selfish smart arsed t

Fatal on M6 southbound between jct 39 & 38 Shap and Tebay.

I don't know the details but yes that was probably the one. 🙁

My car has a pop-up display that shows the time gap between me and the car in front. Clearly that demands research

😀 That's quite cool - I was actually thinking it would be an interesting geeky experiment to hook up a little rangefinder to a raspberry pi or something and log what the average distances were. Didn't realise that some cars had that already.

Your 0.65 second figure fits with what I see. Anything more than roughly 20 meters at 70mph is fair game, regardless of conditions.

Out of interest does your car give any kind of alarm on that display if the gap is too small?

My feeling is that if Volvo think their car can safely maintain a 0.75 second gap in the dry, then who am I to argue?

Interesting one that because I guess part of the reason for the two-second rule is to allow for reaction time, but if the car is doing your reacting for you then where does that leave us?

Mind you, presumably all the car can do is apply the brakes. It can't take avoiding action (yet).

Seems likely that autonomous/driverless cars might eventually help with this.

Two seconds is an enormous gap on the motorway and I only drop back to it if there's heavy rain.

And yet that would still be half the recommended distance in heavy rain. 😕

stay in the outside lane at 70 mph

What? Even if the other lanes are free?

🙄

IMO, leaving a gap is less about being able to stop (although at some point that IS useful) but much more about opening your vision up

Out of interest does your car give any kind of alarm on that display if the gap is too small?

I always leave at least 2 seconds. I count down the gap whenever I find myself too close. Just something I always do as routine.

On dual carriageways and motorways I think it's actually more important. Traffic stopping in front can be less predictable, and peoples reaction times lazier. Passed a pile up the other day in the outside lane, nowhere near any junction. Just people being idiots. There's no reason for it.

Not only that, and this is something that really angers me. Traffic flows better if you leave a gap. Especially on motorways and dual carriageways. When everyone's bumper to bumper, no one can get off the slip road without someone slowing down and letting them in....which they usually do at last minute after accelerating up to the car in front, meaning they have to brake harder! Then you have the cascading brake effect. Then you have me sitting at the back, travelling at 5 friggin' mile per hour. I genuinely have a hard time getting my head around the idea that people think they're getting to work quicker by driving like this, whilst every morning consistently achieving the opposite. Do I have this wrong?

Even if you take all this out, it's inconsiderate, and aggressive. Cars really bring out the worst in people. You can probably tell it's one of my bugbears.

Oh, and this...

IMO, leaving a gap is less about being able to stop (although at some point that IS useful) but much more about opening your vision up.

The amount of people I see driving a few feet behind vans and trucks who can clearly see [i]nothing[/i] that is coming up. Especially bad for any cyclists who might be just up the road.

Yeh - I can set it to my choice of gap, too.

Interesting. I wonder how long it will be before insurance companies get in on this and those "black boxes" start recording speed and stopping distances?

Could be quite conclusive in a disputed case.

Out of interest does your car give any kind of alarm on that display if the gap is too small?

Yeah, on the Volvo you get an orange warning bar projected onto the windscreen if you get too close when driving normally. It actually triggers at a greater distance than if the cruise control is on, so I suspect it's as you said and it's taking reaction time into account.

Radar cruise is solely reactive, though, and many times you can see what's happening half a mile or more down the road and begin to increase the gap or slow down gently before the car in front is even aware.

I think many people are focussed on the 10 feet of road in front of their car as you'll often see people almost go into the back of the car in front just by catching up on it, and it's not surprising that we have major pileups on the motorway.

First thing my dad taught me when driving on the motorway was to look as far ahead as you possibly can.

matt_outandabout - Member
What I don't get is the ones that follow for miles, but never overtake...
I had a car follow all the way today, at a couple of car lengths, from Pitlochry to Shloct(?) Summit, where they overtook at 70+ in the outer lane of slushy snow, having not edged past at any of the dual areas before...

I must have been the next car back because I saw that happen at the Slochd this afternoon on my way back from Dundee. You were doing about 60, which seemed fast enough for the conditions.

It looked to me like he moved out to overtake and only then thought "Oh shit" because he took forever to complete the overtake probably after realising what the surface was like.

It looked dodgy, I slowed down a bit to leave room for the accident. 🙂

Being a BMW driver I apply the same principles as when riding my track bike at the velodrome - close the gap, get tucked right in there and save fuel 🙂 I can often get the computer up to 47mph and save even more by not wasting electricity with the indicators....

Scaredypants I concur (sadly I use that road everyday). The other phenomenon I have noticed is the gap shutters who are not limited to that road.

Outside lane variety. These ones leave a decent gap right up to the point an inferior car indicates to pull out and then you see the puff of exhaust dust and the car squat under power and they're in the boot of the car in front. If the exiting car by some miracle gets safely into the space before the shutter closes the gap too far they are usually rewarded by flashing, honking and the sight of a vein in the shutters forehead exploding in their rear view mirror. Regular culprits are vans, 4x4 and any vehicle the driver sees as making them superior.

Middle lane variety are as above and/or just generally hurtling towards whatever car is in front fixated on its tail lights, never looking left or right. At 20 yards to go the brakes get smacked on hard to a following distance of exactly 0.27 car lengths. Watch out could be anyone.

Inside lane variety follow at a safe distance until the inside lane crosses an entry slip then hammer it into the path of any car joining the motorway.

i always leave at least a 2 second gap, it makes for smoother progress, (something my passengers regularly comment on)
obviously, i can only control the gap in front of me, the gap behind is entirely dependent on the driver following me, however, there are 2 points to consider;
1:if you drive into my bus, there is every chance that i wont feel a thing.
2:if you drive into my bus, it will take a fair bit of explaining, due to it being 12' high and 8' 6" wide and being painted yellow.
similar to a poster above, im not claiming driving god status either.
i am also aware that the majority of drivers, including many of my colleagues, do not think it matters that much.

IMO, leaving a gap is less about being able to stop (although at some point that IS useful) but much more about opening your vision up. I would say 99.9% of drivers i see day to day are completely re-active, rather than pro-active. As a result they tend to simply drive into bad situations that with more visibility and observations are blatantly obviously unfolding!!

This plus 1.

In a similar vein you can't pull a single carriageway overtake nearly as safely or easily from 6ft behind the other vehicle. Drop back 50 feet and it makes an incredible difference to how far you can see and how much easier it is.

Being a BMW driver I apply the same principles as when riding my track bike at the velodrome - close the gap, get tucked right in there and save fuel I can often get the computer up to 47mph and save even more by not wasting electricity with the indicators....

Can't wait until I can afford a BMW and be able to reach the dizzy heights of 47mph 🙂

Good thread. I do try (count one elephant, two elephant) but not always ideal. I do drive like a grandad these days though.

Hand't *really* though of the vision thing before except in reverse - always amazed at the folk that make overtakes on lorries from 5' off their tailgate 🙁

I've driven up and down the A9, off and on, for ? 35 years, seen the aftermath of at least two fatals in that time, both times I would have been only minutes behind the incidents so do have a frisson of the dangers..

50 zone on the M5 southbound from 4A past five is interesting, gaps start off reasonable but by the time I get off at five we're driving in each other's pockets.

What ever happened to that new tailgating offence that they made a big deal about a few years ago?

Has anyone ever actually been convicted of it?

I guess it is a little harder to prove than speeding.

I can often get the computer up to 47[s]mph[/s] mpg

But you knew that 🙂

If you leave a 2 second gap on the M6, 3 cars and an artic will go into it. It's kind of maddening that it's often basically impossible to do what should be absolutely basic safety stuff.

I generally employ the two second rule but I think what exacerbates the tailgating problem is the general lack of lane discipline in the UK. At any given time on a three lane motorway you will get maybe 10% in the inside lane, 40% in the middle lane and the rest in the outside lane. This made worse by the people who just sit in the middle lane come what may, irrespective of the speed they are doing or the traffic on the road.

You very rarely get that situation on the continent where drivers seem to be much more aware of overtaking and then moving back in to let faster traffic pass.

On the continent, generally, there are only 2 lanes.(At least in France and Spain).

All you can do is leave a sensible gap and look after yourself - if others pull into that gap, so be it, but re-establish it.
My son showed me a video, which unfortunately I can't find, of a driver following tight behind a truck in the inside lane. The truck indicated and pulled out, nothing unusual. Except he was pulling out to avoid a stationary queue in the inside lane. The card driver ploughed straight into the queue. Scary, made me think.

This made worse by the people who just sit in the middle lane come what may

Conversely I get people who clearly [i]think[/i] I am hogging the middle lane because I don't pull back into a gap that is considerably smaller than the required 124 meters.

Fatal on M6 southbound between jct 39 & 38 Shap and Tebay.
I don't know the details but yes that was probably the one.

There were 2 today. One at 37-38 about lunchtime, another first thing this morning down Stafford way (13-14).

The Tebay one closed the motorway for 9 hours. I was glad I'd decided against going to the Lakes today!

Driving on the M60 earlier in atrocious weather and as usual the lane discipline and driving standards were abysmal. 🙁 You try leaving a 2-second gap and it'll be filled with 6 cars before you know it!

I use the two second rule, makes me a more relaxed driver.

70mph = 62.6 meters

In Belgium, particularly E40 west of Brussels, IME, 62.6 millimeters is the preferred gap between cars. Leave a gap more than 5m, and a Belgian will find a way to squeeze a car in.

Conversely I get people who clearly think I am hogging the middle lane because I don't pull back into a gap that is considerably smaller than the required 124 meters.

I suppose the idea is that as soon as you change lanes everyone brakes to maintain the correct distance. After a while people are driving backwards to keep the safe distance.

50 zone on the M5 southbound from 4A past five is interesting, gaps start off reasonable but by the time I get off at five we're driving in each other's pockets.

That set of roadworks is maddening... the lanes are so narrow it's just not safe to be right next to someone in the lane next to you, but if you back off either the person behind will start getting irate or someone will just pull in on front of you anyway!

Tailgating must surely be something that could be monitored automatically by cameras, even if all they do is flash up a message rather than take any formal action? If a camera can work out how quickly a car covers a certain distance, it can surely measure the distance from one car to the next...

I try to, but if you leave an adequate safe gap, someone will invariably fill it. What you should do is back off again, but if you do that you end up stationary or actually reversing back to your start point.

So what I do is leave a safe gap, then keep an eye on what is going on around me and closing the gap as soon as someone even thinks about moving into it.

Tailgating must surely be something that could be monitored automatically by cameras

I was thinking about that and yeah it could - but you'd get a lot of false hits.

e.g. someone overtakes you and then pulls back in far too close. If you happen to pass a camera at that moment it will look like [i]you[/i] are tailgating.

They'd need to spot recurring patterns. If one car is involved in multiple "too close" incidents (either in front or behind) then they are very likely to be the problem. It would still probably need video evidence to prove it though.

In Belgium, particularly E40 west of Brussels,

I’ve ridden across a lot of countries in Europe and Belgium is probably the most frightening on the continent. It’s like they purposely get as close to the back of the motorbike as humanly possible on the motorways.

Obviously, in general, riding in the UK scares me more than anywhere else.

Rachel

What hacks me off is when people pull into the gap in front of me, close to me instead of close to the car in front because they don't want to endanger themselves, and then off into the exit lane, when there's a huge gap behind me.

Being in a car give people loads of guts to do things they woudn't have the guts to do outside of the car.

What this country needs is some serious wholesale bans for driving offences..

Even just from reading this forum where you would hope that people have a slightly better sense of their responsibilities as a driver due to their experience as cyclists, you can see that there are a [i]huge[/i] number of complete ****ing idiots that are more than happy to try to justify appalling driving..

Massive bans from the outset, three strikes and you're out, scrap the points system altogether..

This would reduce the number of vehicles on the road and would force boy racers (and the idiot adults that haven't grown out of it) to reconsider their position..

I don't hate much in this world but silly arrogant boys (and girls) who never grew up, thinking they have a right to drive in the way that [i]they[/i] consider best annoys me considerably

If I am tail gated I cap the brakes left footed until the s behind backs off. I like to think that they think I am trying a bit of a deliberate accident. There is no bloody excuse and failure to maintain that gap whatever the situation makes you a antisocial selfish smart arsed t

In fairness, this is pretty silly behaviour too...

Being in a car give people loads of guts to do things they woudn't have the guts to do outside of the car.

Yup - I wouldn't try and go along the M4 at 70mph on foot 😉

It doesn't help that the only consistently enforced (and demonised) traffic offence is breaking the speed limit. It's easy to police with automated systems but it's the tip of the iceberg. Inappropriate braking distances and tailgating is one of the most dangerous things you can do behind the wheel, especially given most people fixate on the car in front's back end rather than looking ahead / around. Some of the standards of driving I see day to day is atrocious.

I followed a bloke in a Ka on the way to work this morning. Hitting the brakes every time he hit 30mph in a 50 zone, bimbling along at 15-20mph when we hit the 30mph built-up area. This was in rush hour traffic with a huge queue behind us. All over the carriageway, in the gutter one minute and crossing the centre line the next. He'll probably go unchallenged until he causes a head-on one day.

Interesting post - I drive in a manor that keeps my family safe, at times this means having to close the 2 second rule to stop someone undertaking and cutting in front, only to slam on their brakes because they have misjudged the distance.

Couldn't get away with it in the UK, can do here.

Sounds stupid, works though, having to rag tag it with ten wheelers, large buses and every **** on the road makes it a challenge at times to keep everybody safe.

I drive in a manor that keeps my family safe,

Sounds safe. There's probably not a lot of traffic on a large driveway.

Unfortunately Cougar, a lot of driving here is about protecting yourself.

Drive in the middle lane, you are prone to trucks pulling out without checking.

Drive in the inside lane, you wreck your car on pot holes, and risk trucks pulling in on you.

Drive in the outside lane you have to fight to keep your space.

No police doing you for tailgaiting, nobody beeping horns at you, you just do your best to keep your space, drive as safe as possible, and manage the area around you.

Edited for being a twunt

[img] [/img]

Couldn't get away with it in the UK

Unfortunately you could and people do - which is kinda the problem.

(Whereabouts in the world are you again Quirrel? I forget)

Posting while drunk.....cougar my apologies for misreading that 😳 would you like me to rant about when people try and claim that they were in the right for riding in prime position, which for me means either getting taken out by an oncoming pick up or getting smashed by a pickup in the rear?

It's the "middle lane twins" I don't understand

Two cars following each other closely in the middle lane on a reasonably quiet motorway. Nothing on the inside. Both cars travelling at slightly below the limit. First car makes no attempt to pull in to the empty inside lane, second car makes no attempt to overtake or drop back.

I see it quite often, sometime the second car is so close it looks like its being towed! I've yet to figure out why this goes on?

The first car is probably just your regular "never changes lanes never checks mirrors but I must be safe because I'm only doing 62" but the second car I just don't get, lonely perhaps

the second car I just don't get

I generally assume that the second driver is thinking [i]"That guy in front is hogging the middle lane, which is a bit irritating but not really harming anyone. So instead of just overtaking him and getting on with my journey with little or no inconvenience, I'll risk both of our lives by driving dangerously close. That way he'll realise what a terrible driver he is."[/i]

I generally assume that the second driver is thinking "That guy in front is hogging the middle lane, which is a bit irritating but not really harming anyone. So instead of just overtaking him and getting on with my journey with little or no inconvenience, I'll risk both of our lives by driving dangerously close. That way he'll realise what a terrible driver he is."

Oooh, oooh, another good one is [i]"That guy I've just had to overtake should have pulled back in to the inside by now, I'll make sure he knows what an awful person he's being by swerving dramatically across all three lanes about a foot off his bumper, that'll demonstrate how superior my driving is to his."[/i]

Idiots. Gibbering idiots, as far as the eye can see...

I'll make sure he knows what an awful person he's being by swerving dramatically across all three lanes about a foot off his bumper

[i]"...then realise I am now fast approaching the back of lorry he was quite legitimately overtaking, so immediately swing back out again across all three lanes, narrowly avoiding several collisions."[/i]

Yeah that one annoys me, especially as I am often the "offender" in the middle lane and I'm not "lane hogging", I just haven't pulled in [i]yet[/i] because I have a basic concept of stopping distances.

I swear some people think sitting a few feet behind a lorry is doing their MPG some good. I can't think of another reason for doing it.

I swear some people think sitting a few feet behind a lorry is doing their MPG some good. I can't think of another reason for doing it.

😳 I did clock 83mpg (slightly less when I calculated the result) on a trip from Redruth to Taunton though. 😳

Bring on driverless cars peole are just not responsible enough to drive it will be better when the human is out of the driving seat.

It's the "middle lane twins" I don't understand

In a similar [i]manner[/i], its the middle lane owners who belt it up the middle lane at 90, sit 2" behind the middle lane owner doing 70, until eventually after many many hours the MLO doing 70 pulls over left, and original MLO immediately belts it back up to 90.

All while both lane 1 and 3 are clear for miles and miles and miles

There's a lot to said for cruise control on the motorway, if people drove at a consistent speed traffic would flow more freely.
It's noticeable on a long run passing the same car over and over again, they shoot past you and off into the distance only to slow down and you have to overtake them again.

Leave a gap more than 5m, and a Belgian will find a way to squeeze a car in.

But my Belgian made car is more than 5m long 😉

Don't get me started on slip road etiquette.

I must have missed the memo declaring that use of indicators and matching the speed of other vehicles, was optional when joining a motorway...

Apparently it was a Traffic Officer killed in that M6 Tebay crash
Three vehicle collision.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-35628600

🙁

There's a lot to said for cruise control on the motorway, if people drove at a consistent speed traffic would flow more freely.
It's noticeable on a long run passing the same car over and over again, they shoot past you and off into the distance only to slow down and you have to overtake them again.

Yeah I have cruise control on my Focus and it is quite interesting to see how much people vary their speed for no obvious reason.

Yeah I have cruise control on my Focus and it is quite interesting to see how much people vary their speed for no obvious reason.

Cruise controls are considered a major factor in the fastest rising category of accident in some European countries: dozing off and a lack of concentration leading to increased reaction times. Studies in France and Switzerland have stated cruise controls are dangerous:

[url= http://www.ledauphine.com/france-monde/2013/07/12/regulateurs-de-vitesse ]This one[/url] states the opposite of what posters are claiming above. It states cruise control users don't leave as much space when pulling in after overtaking and don't feed into traffic s safely. They also fail to modulate their speed to suit traffic conditions.

I wasn't claiming cruise control was safer Edukator.

Only that when you are held at a constant speed (by cruise control) you can more easily observe how often other people significantly vary their speed for no readily apparent reason.

Rusty Spanner
"I'm keeping two chevrons apart."

It always makes me laugh at how some drivers can leave the 2 chevrons gap whilst they are painted on the ground, but as soon as they leave that section, they close the safe gap. 🙄