[Closed] Driver kills multiple cyclists tonight in New York

Does this count as terrorism? Or does it depend on the race of the driver?

Being treated as a terrorist attacked according to the link the OP posted,.

Have friends from Germany in Manhattan, hope they aren't caught up in this

Latest suggests he got out with some sort of gun so being treated as terrorism

Latest suggests he got out with some sort of gun so being treated as terrorism

Wouldn't that make nearly everyone in America a terrorist.

Christ, not again. 🙁

That's awful.

Wouldn't that make nearly everyone in America a terrorist.

Nope, only around a quarter of Americans own a gun.

From what I understand, a very small percentage of very vocal Americans actually carry guns.

Wouldn't that make nearly everyone in America a terrorist.

Trump has said this was carried out by a 'very sick & deranged' individual.

Which translates as 'it wasn't a Muslim'

He was carrying a paintball gun apparently

zanelad - Member

Wouldn't that make nearly everyone in America a terrorist.

cloudnine - Member

Does this count as terrorism? Or does it depend on the race of the driver?

Disgusting that in the aftermath of incidents like this people like to pretend that there's no difference between religious or politically motivated terrorism and murder and atrocities not motivated by politics or religion.

The obvious inference is that one is a racist if they presume anything about the attack.

The intention is to avoid any awkward and potentially "racist" discussions about troublesome beliefs and obfuscate the distinction between random unconnected acts of violence and terrorism.

What makes this a terror attack but the las vegas attack not?

Agreed, there's no difference between a politicaly or racially motivated murder.

Reports now indicate it was intended as a terrorist attack.

The perpetrator may have also been a troubled individual. I'd be surprised if he wasn't.

bruneep - Member

What makes this a terror attack but the las vegas attack not?

If Stephen Paddock was a terrorist what was his political motivation? What goal was he trying to achieve? What cause was he trying to further? What size was his terrorist cell? How many other members were there in his terror group?

If you define him as a terrorist he is a member of a terror group of 1 and by shooting himself in the head he effectively ended the threat from his terrorist group.

Was pilot Andreas Lubitz a terrorist when he flew a plane and 144 people into a mountain? If he was that particular terrorist group has been suspiciously quiet since, but it's really one we should be keeping a tighter eye on.

Or does it depend on the race of the driver?

Lame.

Islam is not a race. Islamic terrorists are not confined to any particular race.

Suggest you bury your head back in the sand.

Trump has said this was carried out by a 'very sick & deranged' individual.

Which translates as 'it wasn't a Muslim'

Despite the fact he was shouting "“Allahu Akbar,”?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/31/nyregion/police-shooting-lower-manhattan.html

Well we all know that religion and global politics are intrinsically connected.

That's not a good reason to go around killing random people.

For family and friends of the dead and injured, heartfelt sympathies.

Probably, in just the same way that everyone in the UK with a car is a terrorist.
#rollseyes

So, kill 8 people with a pick up truck and your a criminal, get out of the cab and wave a gun around and you're a terrorist. I understand now, thank you #flipsyouthebird.

Lame.

Islam is not a race. Islamic terrorists are not confined to any particular race.

aaahh that old nugget eh?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/20/islam-race-richard-dawkins

irc - Member
Trump has said this was carried out by a 'very sick & deranged' individual.
Which translates as 'it wasn't a Muslim'

Despite the fact he was shouting "“Allahu Akbar,”?

looks like i was wrong on that one!

Lucky for him the guy wasn't in the UK - you can get several points on your licence for running over so many cyclists here.

Sayfullo Saipov, an Uzbek immigrant who came to the US in 2010.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41827435

I have just ordered Homeland Security to step up our already Extreme Vetting Program. Being politically correct is fine, but not for this!

Trump is wrong on lots of things, but not on this one.

Trump is wrong on lots of things, but not on this one.

Or possibly the conversion and radicalisation happened in the US.

What signs are you looking for that will indicate behaviour 7 years later?

Kimbers I'm guessing that article is intended to 'prove' otherwise. 😆

Trump is wrong on lots of things, but not on this one.

With 1.6 billion Muslims on the planet the religion isn't the problem.
Skipping out on the race issue by swapping to religion is also a bit lame, there are plenty of stereotypes of the races that make up Islam along with a general hatred of the religion itself.

I think dismissing the connection between these acts and Islam is wrong.

Not all Musims are terrorists but a lot of terrorists are Muslim and they feel they are acting in the name of Islam when they carry out these attacks.

So its a relationship that needs confronting not ignoring.

Am going to go out on a wing and suggest some solutions:

1)Stop selling weapons to and or bombing far away countries.
2) Stop SA investing money in the spread of Islam in the west and stop doing business with them until they sort their human rights out.
3) Regulate what happens in Islamic churches and schools, hint of extremism shut them down.
4) Remove driving licences from criminals, this a more general suggestion. 5yr bans for all convicted nutters whether its a driving related offence or not.
5) (edit add)Licence internet users.

5) Keep a sense of perspective
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
12,894 Gun Deaths in the USA in 2017.

Not all Musims are terrorists but a lot of terrorists are Muslim and they feel they are acting in the name of Islam when they carry out these attacks.

The US could make it's citizens a lot safer in a lot of ways, I see your point 3 as being a massively divisive and dangerous one as it singles out a lot of completely innocent people for enhanced surveillance based on the actions of a small number of people.

The problem 3 and 5 address is the whispering voice of radicalisation that homes in on the suspeptible who are probably already angry about 1 and 2.

I don't think it needs to surveillance btw just a sense that the authorities can act when concerns are raised rather than being worried about accusations of discrimination.

I agree with you on all counts [s]Wilbert[/s] wilburt, however, points 3 & 4 (& a bit of 2) would be very difficult.
We have little idea of what goes on in Mosques & if you get some radical cleric banging on then it's hard to do much about it (cos our human rights system says they have rights, etc etc) Look at Anjem Choudary for instance, took bloody ages to convict him.
People/nutters with no driving licence/banned drivers....still drive.
SA are just, 🙄

wow an internet license too

6 Jan 2017 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 5 6 TER-islm shooting attack at Fort Lauderdale Airport; 5 killed, 6 injured; 12,000 people evacuated from airport
31 Jan 2017 Denver, Colorado 1 0 TER-islm fatal shooting of Denver transit authority guard
14 Jun 2017 Alexandria, Virginia 1 5 TER-left shooting attack targeting Republican lawmakers at a baseball field; 5 injured including U.S. Representative Steve Scalise and 1 police officer; attacker was fatally shot
12 Aug 2017 Charlottesville, Virginia 1 19 TER-right vehicular attack on protestors
24 Sep 2017 Antioch, Tennessee 1 8 TER shooting attack on church service; attacker was injured
1 Oct 2017 Las Vegas, Nevada 59 527 CRI? sniper attack on concert; fatalities included 1 police officer and 2 Canadians; attacker killed himself
31 Oct 2017 New York City, New York 8 12 TER-islm attacker drove vehicle into people on a bike path, killing 8 (including 5 Argentine citizens and 1 Belgian citizen), then drove into a school bus injuring 4 (including 2 children); attacker was shot and injured

Extreme vetting...right 🙄 This idiot's country is not even on the list of mainly Muslim countries Trump wants banned, so what, add Uzbekistan? and then who?

We have an open society, there is no solution to the problem of trying to stop individuals (for whatever reason) from renting a car/van and killing people with it. Trying to look for ways of stopping this (other than good intelligence) is pointless and counter productive.

I'm just amazed this guy couldn't get his hands on any real guns over there. He must have been a right div.

Thoughts are with those killed and injured. Group of Argentinian friends on a Uni reunion trip it seems.

@kimbers I think Trump is being deliberately restrained, imo he well knew it was an Islamic extremist hence his vetting comments.

@nick extreme vetting applies to countries not on the travel ban list, if you are on the banned list you can’t come full stop (that’s Trump’s plan anyway)

@nick extreme vetting applies to countries not on the travel ban list, if you are on the banned list you can’t come full stop (that’s Trump’s plan anyway)

3) Regulate what happens in Islamic churches and schools, hint of extremism shut them down.
4) Remove driving licences from criminals, this a more general suggestion. 5yr bans for all convicted nutters whether its a driving related offence or not.
5) (edit add)Licence internet users.

4. Do you believe that someone intent on murder with a car is going to be worried about whether they have a license or not? And which offences determine someone is a “nutter”? And what about people with no such convictions?

5. What sanctions would you suggest against internet users who publically recommend removing the rights to free speech of citizens who have different religious views? Would it be an immediate ban, or like driving with totting up for minor offences?

EGF -“ We have little idea of what goes on in Mosques “

Only because we choose to. They are open (and mostly very welcoming) places where anyone can go and see. You might need to learn some Arabic to really understand though - but that’s not a secret code.

If we as individuals or as a country don’t understand what happens in mosques that is our choice.

and while we are on that subject
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church
The flavour isn't the problem some of the individuals are

Muslim immigrant kills cyclists on a cycle path. The ultimate quandary for the Daily Mail.

Disturbing picture of a normal guy with a family that had become radicalised? whilst in the USA.
Im not sure vetting world have turned up anything?

seems remarkable he didn't have a real fun.

New York/NJ have some of the strictest gun control laws, maybe they work.

Of course anyone can rent a truck, whatever the method terrible for those effected.

4. I used the term “nutter” to avoid having to go into detail which would need to be formulated.
Must admit I put that one in to selfishly reduce my chance of being mown down by the general population as much as a terrorist.
It wouldnt guarantee these things dont happen but it would make it harder to hire a vehicle.

3. Maybe the key is more integration? If so how do we do that?

5. I wouldnt see it as a permision thing more identification and as well as identifing people promoting extremism could be used to sort out bots from humans.

Perhaps some better steps would be a ban on large capacity magazines, assault rifles, hand guns - in fact most guns in the US, would make the place safer much quicker and perhaps promote integration, though given the hostility towards the non white population in many parts of america that could be a long way off.

John Oliver back in 2015 when they were last calling for more "extreme vetting" (then for Syrian refugees):

I'm sure that many sides were to blame and there were some very fine people on both sides of the windscreen.

muppetWrangler - Member

Nope, only around a quarter of Americans own a gun.

And half of all guns are owned by only three per cent of the pop!

https://qz.com/1095899/gun-ownership-in-america-in-three-charts/

[img] [/img]
1/4 own all the guns - so 1 in 4 are armed in some way

mikewsmith - Member

[img] [/img]

1/4 own all the guns - so 1 in 4 are armed in some way

Was this attack some kind of response to the issue of gun ownership? Did the killer murder people with a gun? What's your point here?

Point being Islamic terrorism is a drop in the ocean in the US, they could have done something that would have saved 59 people in Vegas recently, the massive reaction is not in proportion to the threat or danger in the US.
Most of the bold and shouty reactions will do nothing and not change a thing, they are driven by religious hatred.

mikewsmith - Member

Point being Islamic terrorism is a drop in the ocean in the US,

So in the event of a murder, or a mass murder the motivations of a killer or a group of killers should be ignored because there's always a bigger problem? Ie the people murdered in Nice or Paris or London doesn't really matter because lots of people die in Europe due to road traffic collisions, or cancer. Is that how we should approach these incidents?

Most of the bold and shouty reactions will do nothing and not change a thing, they are driven by religious hatred.

What bold and shouty reactions are you talking about? I presume the religious hatred you're referring to is that of the islamists who explicitly want to kill apostates?

Not at all, but an immediate call for more extreme vetting would not have spotted this problem.
The answer to this problem is a lot deeper than some knee jerk reaction however the US could do a serious amount of work to prevent serious numbers gun deaths but refuses to acknowledge a problem.

What bold and shouty reactions are you talking about? I presume the religious hatred you're referring to is that of the islamists who explicitly want to kill apostates?

This guy was radicalised in the US, by people in the US so the problem is in the US.
On top of that there is a huge number of people in the US using religion to oppress and control people, just they seem to think it's fine as it's their religion.

Classic diversionary tactics. We have a domestic issue with gun ownership and mass murders but we are unwilling to address that. Let's demonise some foreigners instead.

Bold perhaps but I wasnt really shouty, there just ideas for discussion I think thats clear in the way they are phrased.

Would I rather fix gun crime in the US? Yes. Would I rather fix pollution globally? Yes.

Does that mean we shouldnt look to solutions to this problem?

however the US could do a serious amount of work to prevent serious numbers gun deaths but refuses to acknowledge a problem.

Lots of people know it's a problem.
Lots of people don't see the guns as the problem.

The biggest problem is what can you actually do about it? The genie is already out of the bottle.

2 of my American colleagues have around 30 guns each, it's a n+1 thing to them. They LOVE guns. They collect them. They make their own ammunition. They and a lot of others would resist any type of gun control. They have never shot anyone with their guns and are law abiding.

Personally, I think the situation is madness but, as above, what can you actually do? There are so many guns in circulation, I can't see how it can be realistically changed.

mikewsmith - Member

Not at all, but an immediate call for more extreme vetting would not have spotted this problem.
The answer to this problem is a lot deeper than some knee jerk reaction however the US could do a serious amount of work to prevent serious numbers gun deaths but refuses to acknowledge a problem.

Sorry but I can't help but think this is double whataboutery. A man was motivated to kill a bunch of people and try to kill himself. What was he trying to achieve. How do you prevent this from happening again.

This guy was radicalised in the US, by people in the US so the problem is in the US.

Who radicalised him? What problem is in the US? Does this problem have a name? Where did it come from?

On top of that there is a huge number of people in the US using religion to oppress and control people, just they seem to think it's fine as it's their religion.

That sounds like something going on somewhere else....

slowoldman - Member

Classic diversionary tactics. We have a domestic issue with gun ownership and mass murders but we are unwilling to address that. Let's demonise some foreigners instead.

Just like they demonised foreigners after jihadist attacks in England?
Just like they demonised foreigners after jihadist attacks in France?
Just like they demonised foreigners after jihadist attacks in Germany?
Just like they demonised foreigners after jihadist attacks in Russia?
Just like they demonised foreigners after jihadist attacks in Spain?

Sorry but I can't help but think this is double whataboutery. A man was motivated to kill a bunch of people and try to kill himself. What was he trying to achieve. How do you prevent this from happening again.

Who radicalised him? What problem is in the US? Does this problem have a name? Where did it come from?

Just like they demonised foreigners after jihadist attacks in England?
Just like they demonised foreigners after jihadist attacks in France?
Just like they demonised foreigners after jihadist attacks in Germany?
Just like they demonised foreigners after jihadist attacks in Russia?
Just like they demonised foreigners after jihadist attacks in Spain?

Exactly like that, you do realise that most of those attacks were carried out by citizens of those countries don't you? Attaching the word "jihadist" to the act doesn't make the terrorists foreign.

mikewsmith - Member

Hard question, going after a body of 1.6 billion people won't help, Trumps demonising over time isn't going to work, making a religion the enemy probably won't work either.

I agree, that's why there has to be open and honest discussion about where this brand of Islam comes from, what is it about this interpretation that is so dangerous or so compatible with radicalisation. Who is spreading it, why are they spreading it? Is it canonical? Who if anyone has the authority to condemn it?

If everyone on one side says it's nothing to do with Islam and everyone on the other saying, it's Islam then there's no progress.

Obama tried to dismiss any connection - that emboldened Trump.

Well, as it's happening in the US it's probably a problem there. However in the bigger scheme of things a country that can rationalise the deaths of 12,000 people this year but not have a rational way of dealing with this has a big problem.

Yes but you can't just weigh everything up numerically.

MSP - Member

Exactly like that, you do realise that most of those attacks were carried out by citizens of those countries don't you? Attaching the word "jihadist" to the act doesn't make the terrorists foreign.

I do realise that. If they weren't "foreigners" as such they must have had something in common. Wonder what the common thread was.

Who radicalised him? What problem is in the US? Does this problem have a name? Where did it come from?

Probably bombing their countrymen might have something to do with it, much like the guy who blew up 500 people in Mogadishu just recently.

DrJ - Member

Probably bombing their countrymen might have something to do with it,

But I thought the vast majority of jihadi terrorists who attacked European cities were citizens of those countries?

This guy was radicalised in the US, by people in the US so the problem is in the US.

We don't know he was radicalised by people in the USA. AFAIK much radicalisation is online and hence worldwide. Therefore the problem is not confined to the USA but is part of a wider international problem with radical Islam being the common factor.

But I thought the vast majority of jihadi terrorists who attacked European cities were citizens of those countries?

Indeed, but they still probably have some idea that what is happening back home is wrong.

DrJ - Member

Indeed, but they still probably have some idea that what is happening back home is wrong.

I guess they must all come from Iraq then?

you do realise that most of those attacks were carried out by citizens of those countries don't you?

....and that's why it's a cultural/religious issue and not racism.

To understand why this is happening we need a frank conversation about the role off Islam in these events....but some in here try to shut that down as 'racist'....

...repeat after me, Islam is not a race.

Some supposedly educated people on here really don't get that.

(Weird double post thing going on)

I could convert to Islam tomorrow, does my race change with it?....off course not, there are Black Muslims, Asian Muslims, Arab Muslims, Caucasian Muslims etc

It's a religion, that's all....but because of a semi successful attempt to conflate race to religion in the case of Islam people are shit scared of being labeled racist just for wanting to talk about the small but poisonous radical sect within it that encourages terrorism.

Stand up comedians shred Catholicism, some of the braver ones will have a pop at Judaism too, they're all fair game....but when was the last time you saw a stand up routine lampooning Islam...doesn't happen does it?....and that's wrong, it's a religion FFS and its fair game, racism isn't but they're different and the only people who can't see that are those trying to stifle debate.

deviant - Member

when was the last time you saw a stand up routine lampooning Islam...doesn't happen does it?....

It was the last time i went to see a standup so, yes it does.

If we as individuals or as a country don’t understand what happens in mosques that is our choice.

I didn't mean as individuals, I meant from a security point.

I've spent many a happy hour manning muslim service on a Friday afternoon.

Indeed, but they still probably have some idea that what is happening back home is wrong.

Has b****cks all to do with that so lets not apologise for them. It is all about the spread of an extreme form of Islam and the creation of a caliphate by Jihad and purging the world of all the non-believers. The biggest proponents of war mongering in the ME is ISIS themselves, they are responsible for killing the most muslims through the ME and torturing and murdering fellow muslims and other people from any faith or nation.

...repeat after me, Islam is not a race.

Some supposedly educated people on here really don't get that.

your basic point of ignorance stems from the fact that races dont exist

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/race-is-a-social-construct-scientists-argue/

also as for islam stand-up, theres a funny sketch from a guy called eshan ackbar? on muslim tinder, cant find the vid now

your basic point of ignorance stems from the fact that races dont exist

Ok I'll play along....'most' people in West Africa look different to those in North Africa who look different to the indigenous people in the Arctic circle who look different again to 'most' people from India, ****stan etc....of course there are differences and calling them races is fine...unless of course your article is correct and in which case there's no such thing as racism if there aren't any races....yay!

It also flies in the face of other scientific research that shows certain medical conditions are prevalent in certain racial groups...good that we can now discount that as nonsense too and tell all those black people with sickle cell they're imagining it....or those Indians and ****stanis with renal problems that it's just bad luck and not race/genetics.

God, that article smacks of social sciences, gender is a social construct was laughable enough but now race?....lol, brilliant, I'm going to be black from now on, we'll see how that goes down with any black people I get taking about race with

Maybe I'll attend a black lives matter rally and tell everyone that blacks as a race don't exist and the whole thing is pointless....i can see me needing a police escort out of that one too!

It also flies in the face of other scientific research that shows certain medical conditions are prevalent in certain racial groups...good that we can now discount that as nonsense too and tell all those black people with sickle cell they're imagining it....or those Indians and ****stanis with renal problems that it's just bad luck and not [s]race[/s]/genetics.

You almost got it then, almost

So what are the genes that make you a certain race? not everyone with sickle cell is black after all.

That there's more genetic diversity within 'races' than between them has been known pretty much since we cracked the genome

And the more we learn the truer that is
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3531797/

Defining a race is impossible, how many are there?, we are outbred & the world was seeded by continual waves of migration, the fallacy of racial purity is a fantasy we should've learnt by now only leads to trouble

which case there's no such thing as racism if there aren't any races....yay!

This is epic. Top marks! Racism could never be conceptual, ignorant and ill-informed.

Genius.

Great comfort to the world.

See also sexism. If gender is a 'spectrum', ergo there's no sexism. Solved.

.lol, brilliant, I'm going to be black from now on, we'll see how that goes down with any black people I get taking about race with

I imagine they'll just smile politely and pass on by. The issue is not whether you can become black or not, it's about whether "black" is a fundamental biologicial category, or just some way we have chosen to label people.

8 dead and multiple injuries, and most not usa citizens.so sad,.

....and yet the title of this thread says some old tosh about a driver knocking down cyclists....i can only assume this is to skirt the issue of confronting another radical Islam attack.

Any lengths to shut down debate eh?, even British Muslims I've seen interviewed on tv recently say that "islam is not in a good place at the moment " but get a load of (presumably) white middle class people together to talk about the incident and people are at pains to turn it into something other than terrorism.

Thank Christ I live nowhere near a city or town likely to be attacked next, you couldn't pay me enough to live somewhere like London at the moment.

...i can only assume this is to skirt the issue of confronting another radical Islam attack.

Thank Christ I live nowhere near a city or town likely to be attacked next, you couldn't pay me enough to live somewhere like London at the moment.