Down Vs Synthetic? (Jackets)

I have down TNF traction mule slippers. They is toasty 🔥

I've got a down jacket and a synthetic sleeping bag that are both keeping their loft after 10-15 years, so I'd say your experience with your TNF jacket might just be a but unlucky

For actually wearing - down.
If it's going to be stored compressed - synthetic.

TBH I don't even avoid down sleeping bags nowadays as I've got this far without managing to soak one. Once upon a time I was paranoid about it and took to using synthetic 🙂

Has the Powerball been laundered professionally? Dirty/contaminated down will lose a lot of loft so it might be possible to recover some of it.

Has the Powerball been laundered professionally? Dirty/contaminated down will lose a lot of loft so it might be possible to recover some of it.

I was going to ask if it's worth trying to do something to recover the loft

@scotroutes druid the TNF is synthetic, laundered at home but in accordance with instructions.

Why down for wearing?

Why down for wearing?

Cos it's warm

In the recent arctic weather I've been wearing my down jacket (Alpkit Filo) for dog walkies and my synthetic insulated Madison hybrid jacket for biking. Each was the right choice.

@thegeneralist and synthetic isn't?

@cha****ng can you expand?

Down is better insulating but is cruel.  For that reason synthetic ( even "cruelty free down" is actually still cruel)

Any strenuous exercise and you'll be creating dampness through perspiration. Down typically starts to perform less well in that case, but it's warmer for it's weight and bulk if you are being less active.

Down is a by-product of the meat industry - birds are not bred for their down, the down is worth a very small fraction of what the meat is. And if you buy from an RDS certified source, the source of the down, and the treatment of the animals if very closely monitored and audited.

Down actually resists compression much better than a synthetic jacket, and as an insulation has a much longer lifespan.

The only real benefit to synthetic insulation is if you're planning to be using it regularly in wet conditions. From a warmth to weight ratio - even the best synthetics come nowhere near a decent quality down.

The ultralight stuff doesn’t last very long, partly due to the ‘demand’ for super light gear. My Wife’s Rab ultralight down jacket was lovely, but kept getting holes in the Pertex ultralight outer. So down is great, but there’s more to a jacket’s longevity than the insulation.

No more down here, apart from the cheap Decathlon lightweight jackets that seem to last forever (10 years? Ethical, can't fault it).

The Alpkit synthetic stuff is genuinely ace.
Have an O'Hiro for work and a couple of the other mid/lightweight ones for the hills. Dragged over granite, seems to last.

Spot on.

Also - I wouldn't equate the performance of your Thermoball insulated piece with other synthetic insulations. Thermoball is pretty poor, and bad at bunching up and losing loft. Jackets which use sheet insulations such as Primaloft Gold / Thinsulate etc might not look as great, but perform much better, and give more water resistance.

For use during exercise, active insulations such as Primaloft Active are good, as they can be used with more breathable fabrics, which are less sweaty (but not as warm).

So horses for courses really.

Sorry for the geeky answers, its kind of my field.

Choice really comes down to activewear (synthetic) or static/warmth (down) when I’ve been in really cold places, I’d wear synthetic when fat biking and then put a down jacket when stopped - I’m wearing a down jacket over a Polartec Alpha as it was -20C. If a down jacket gets wet it’s insulation is next to useless - a mate withdrew from a winter event in Alaska when his down jacket got wet/froze into a lump.

As per Dovebiker. I've got a down jacket I use for belaying, or whatever when it's really cold but most of the time I use a synthetic. I've got at least one jacket older than 7 years, the insulation is OK, but they're pretty thrashed

Down is better insulating but is cruel. For that reason synthetic ( even “cruelty free down” is actually still cruel)

Yeah, this. I know it's well boring thinking about animal welfare and stuff, but when there is a good and often better alternative, why not?

Down is a by-product of the meat industry

So often said as if that makes the product somehow cruelty free. A lot of the stuff I've watched online about the industry, it isn't a by-product. Live birds. Not easy to know for sure so personally I don't even consider it.
Not like the meat industry is a big love in anyway.

I've got a 10 year old Montane Flux which is still really warm. It's held together with duck tape, my wife hates it, but I was toasty warm walking the dogs in it recently.

I have both, cheap decathlon down jacket and a Montane something or other primaloft jacket.

The decathlon is in the boot of the car for emergency usage as it packs down small. It's also held together with gorilla tape.

But from an ethical perspective I won't be buying another down jacket. For my needs a primaloft or similar jacket is absolutely fine.

For really cold days I choose a full thickness down puffer jacket because below zero there is little chance of rain and it getting wet.

As soon as its above zero and not a cloudless sky with no chance of rain I'll pick a thinner synthetic jacket becuase there is always a chance of a shower and its easy to hang up to dry if its gets soaked through.

I still have a 20+ year old mountain equipment down jacket. Still ideal for cold dry days and has good loft. Looks scruffy though as it has quite a few duck-tape repairs. Would I buy down again? No, because cold and dry is less frequent than slightly less cold and damp. I would probably get something synthetic from Alpkit as their cut fits me well. Or another shell and pile jacket. My old rab pile shell jacket has been relegated to the emergency van jacket but it's still good with years left in it.

@cha****ng can you expand?

When it was hovering around -5deg last week, the down jacket was just comfy and warm. When I did the same walk in a couple of jumpers and a synthetic gilet I was less comfortable.

Just as others have said, for proper warmth in dry-cold weather, down is the best performer.

For my bike ride up a snowy hill on Saturday I wore a hybrid synthetic insulated jacket which could cope with a surprising amount of exertion while stopping me feeling cold.

For balance on the ethics of down - it’s biodegradable whereas synthetic (so far) is not. I am conflicted as I am keen on animal welfare but also not keen on plastics. The key to me is about what lasts longest so that you get as much wear as possible from something that is not optimal from all perspectives.

Synthetic Every time in the UK. My Arcteryx Atom and Alpkit 0Hiro have been super warm and durable, plus I'm less paranoid about them getting wet so they get a hard life.

For balance on the ethics of down – it’s biodegradable whereas synthetic (so far) is not. I am conflicted as I am keen on animal welfare but also not keen on plastics.

That's an interesting counterpoint.

I suppose I've justified my down jacket to myself on the grounds that it's already about eight years old, and it'll quite possibly last the rest of my life.

It's mind-boggling how many down jackets there are on sites like Sport Pursuit though. You'd think everyone who wanted one would have one by now, eh? They've been school run uniform for at least the last 10 years.

considering either an Alpkit 0Hiro or Filament hoodie for chilly dog walks. Unlikely to be worn in the wet or in strenuous activity. The Filament is stated to be recycled down and ethically good. It's also a bit less cash that the OHiro.

anyone tried both and has a view on which warmer etc ?

Ohiro is mega warm, bought it to replace a Rab Neutrino Exped Down jacket. The Filament is a similar weight to my Atom, good all year round, but you'll need layers in winter.

^^^^ good to know, thanks. I do have a Montane Extreme that comes out when it is really really cold, so maybe the Filament is best for my needs. I have been using a Montane Prism but it really isn't warm enough for me unless loads of layers under.

I got a Fjern Breen jacket a few months ago and have worn it a lot. Great as an outer layer unless it's wet enough you need a waterproof. I wore it last week out for a walk when it was -5 and had to take off my down gilet. I like my down gilet because I can wear something else over the top if needed but the Breen is my go to as it's so versatile and if I get it mucky I can chuck it in the washing machine.

So often said as if that makes the product somehow cruelty free. A lot of the stuff I’ve watched online about the industry, it isn’t a by-product. Live birds. Not easy to know for sure so personally I don’t even consider it.

Pretty much all the specialist outdoor brands - the fashion industry is a different scenario - use down which has some form of ethical certification. It's still hard to be absolutely 100% certain because down at a local level often has a cottage industry sort of thing going on, but companies like Mountain Equipment - see https://www.mountain-equipment.co.uk/blogs/sustainability/10-years-of-down-codex® - have made serious efforts to audit their supply chains. Down is also really durable if looked after and will generally outlast synthetic fills. My experience with decades old down sleeping bags is that the synthetic shell fabrics start to break down while the fill is still functioning just fine. Some outdoor brands are starting to use recycled down, though it usually comes from duvets rather than high-end outdoor stuff.

In use down is more resistant to water than you might think - it depends to an extent on the quality of down and how much of it there is - but if you're going to get soaked, synthetic fills are preferable. Even water-resistant treated down eventually collapses into a soggy mess. The difference between hydrophobic and non-hydrophobic down is that the untreated down struggles to regain much loft without specialist drying, while water-resistant stuff gets about 90% of it's loft back if you just line dry it.

Synthetics aren't as warm relative to weight as good quality down, but it's not quite that simple. Blown synthetic insulation, the stuff that's used like down in baffled construction jackets - the down is held in stitched tubes - is actually less efficient than sheets of synthetic layered in a shell with a fully windproof outer - no stitchlines to let in wind at a micro level and fewer uninsulated cold spots. In reality, a 300g synthetic jacket can be functionally warmer than a 300g down jacket in real world use.

It's not as straightforward as 'down is warmer', but if you want a simplified take, it's probably that synthetics are better for cold and wet use, down is better for cold and dry use and water-resistant down gives you a bit of a buffer if you do get wet - it still loses most of its loft in that scenario though, whereas synthetic tends to retain more loft and warmth as a result.

Oh, I think the OP is talking about TNF Thernoball fill, which is actually little balls of Primaloft. The downside to that is that the balls roll around easily, hence the quilted construction and increased stitchlines which compomise outright performance etc.

Sorry, that was all quite dull 🙂

@thegeneralist and synthetic isn’t

Agreed. Not as.

On the original question, down for hanging around in, synthetic for out and about. Even just bimbling into town in -10C with the down jacket under my softshell left it 'damp' enough to need drying out over the radiator overnight and it lost most of it's loft. Super warm and comfy for walking the dog, rigging the boat, putting on after a ride etc, but even light activity renders it pretty useless.

It’s mind-boggling how many down jackets there are on sites like Sport Pursuit though. You’d think everyone who wanted one would have one by now, eh? They’ve been school run uniform for at least the last 10 years.

Christmas is my annual reminder that there are two very different types of people in the (first) world.

1) People who buy what they need, when they need it.

2) People who just want to buy stuff, for the occasion of buying it.

There's a whole side of my family that will follow the logic of "they wear a down jacket for the school run, therefore I'll buy them a down jacket for Christmas, what a nice thoughtful present from me".

Replace school run with cycling, fishing, football, work, etc.
Replace down jacket with just about anything else.

Small 0hiro didn't work for me sadly due to the bulk/length of the arms. I only wear a light merino base layer and power grid fleece beneath my warm layer. The XS was too tight in the chest although the arms were spot on.