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Do you need it?
Ex-gear queer here but I buy nice new shiny ancillaries and buy secondhand frames instead. My Santa Cruz Butcher can do anything a Santa Cruz Bronson or Tallboy can. It can roll across stuff just fine and it can descend like a stabbed rat if someone decent was on it.
At what point do we stop buying into '2015 brings you the best bike yet'.
650b isn't a fad. You'd be crazy not to buy that wheel size, far too much has been spent by manufacturers. It might not be any different to 26, but I'm absolutely convinced it's here to stay.
If you like the way the Giant rides, buy it. They are great bikes, even if some have dubious colour schemes.
Yeah, but pay fell in real terms and isn't recovering at all, underemployment's still massive, generally speaking there are less pounds in pockets.
Yebbut in the good old days, how much of the cash in people's pockets was borrowed on credit cards and loans? Hopefully the current generation of spenders has learned a lesson on credit.
I'm worried now about the 650b fad issue
Personally I wouldn't worry about that- IMO it's past the tipping point now, enough manufacturers have gone all in on it that it's not going to disappear.
It's not like the lack of a consensus on thru-axles for road bikes, which would put me off buying one at the moment if I were in the market.
Look at the prices:
http://www.stif.co.uk/mtb/list-top/bikes-and-frames/santa-cruz/7/all/8/0/
What does carbon save you? circa 500gms?
When i was buying my bike this year i had a few models in mind, had a go on most of the ones i wanted and went with a Banshee Spitfire. 2 reasons really. 1, i could use all of my existing kit and transfer it over from my 5 spot and 2, interchangeable dropouts so i could run either 26" or 650b.
I am very surprised there are not more companies offering this type of frame where you can run whatever wheel size you want. Plus there are also 3 geometry settings which are so easy to change to and from.
But yea OP. Its that time of year i reckon. 🙁
[i] hora - Member
Do you need it? [/i]
Don't start coming on here asking questions like that - most of us want support for buying stuff that we clearly don't need when we post on here, not more doubt.
Having said that, is that bike Kryton looking at one with the 'Giant' only head tube standard? I'd be more worried about them ditching support for that than 650B stuff disappearing.
wwaswas - nope, it has "standard" tapered steerer aka Overdrive not the Overdrive 2. The latter would have stopped me buying it also.
We run a small motorcycle/try-to-get-into-bicycles project/parts/titanium fasteners business and sales have dropped off over the last month or so. I don't know why. It may be that we've had a particularly good summer which, looking out of the window, is still continuing so people are riding instead of rebuilding/tinkering.
Anybody want some discounted Ti?
Most of us are gradually getting older with time and slower yet we want the best kit available, then ontop of this we must have numerous coaching sessions.
When do people actually stop and relax/just ride for fun and stop trying to pretend they are Kyle Strait on the DVD's?
Who is Kyle Strait?
Well that proves he's living in the past.
Hora, whilst you've decided to relax, some of us have decided to have different goals. Different strokes etc... Don't knock it, its a choice for everyone and we're all free to make that choice...
Anyway I'm off to place an order for a gopping bike that matches the colour of my helmet and glasses at least, and is described by several vomit inducing buzzwords.
ttfn
Also many of we older riders may be alienated by the dog straining for a crap cybercreased fugly monstrousites which pass for frames these days. Having your bike covered in lurid, in your face garish decals may appeal to a certain demographic but it I find it a turn off.
It'll soon date.
hora - Member
It'll soon date.
An excellent excuse to buy a new bike then, and if not, there's plenty that spray frames.
late July, 2015At what point do we stop buying into '2015 brings you the best bike yet'.
I'd be disappointed if 2015 didn't bring the best bikes yet. I can't think of a year in which bike technology as a whole went backwards even if blips like flippy shifters sometimes give that impression.
there's plenty that spray frames.
Carbon may be a bit tricky for the average paintshop under the arches.
Still- my alu Butcher is going signal yellow next week 😀
Hmm. It's not too bad in my workshop. Sure, October has been quiet, but that's seasonal, and it looks like I'll smash last Octobers workshop figures by quite some margin.
I'd hit last years workshop figures before the end of last month, so I'm happy.
this year Autumn/winter happened suddenly from a long settled dry warm period, well it did in Yorkshire. speaking to other high street traders around town, the bottom suddenly dropped out of high street shopping on Monday 6 October when it suddenly changed to cold wet and windy and hasn't really recovered 2 weeks later. Someone just turned the light switch off on a good long summer
650b is as here to stay as anything is in this industry. Which isn't reassuring, because that was true of 26 inch 2 years ago. So what that basically means is there's no reason to specifically doubt that 650b will stay, but that absolutely everything on your bike is now fair game and might suddenly be obsolete tomorrow.
So don't not buy a bike because it's 650b. But also don't trust the bike industry, because it absolutely will **** you for a dollar and your £5000 bike might be old hat 1 minute after you buy it, for no good reason at all.
scotroutes - MemberWho is Kyle Strait?
Renowned maker of kneepads.
Another not buying a bike for a while.
The arrogance of 650b and the price of new kit has put me off buying a new bike - the introduction of road discs will lead to new standards and I just can't be arsed with it all.
It's put me off the bike media too, tbh.
It was a fait accompli, I understand that.
But not one negative article about 650B in the mainstream media?
Not one acknowledgement of the pointlessness and arrogance of it all?
So I don't read any of it these days, STW aside.
I'll stick with the current stuff until I can't get the bits and then either do something else or buy secondhand.
[quote=Northwind ]
Renowned maker of kneepads.scotroutes - Member
Who is Kyle Strait?
Not the lead singer in a crap eponymous band of his siblings then?
Who can afford to buy and change bikes every year?
Who needs to do that?
The wheel size thing has p****d me off as well, and will probably delay me buying a new MTB.
I'm sure 650B and 29" are both here to stay, the industry has invested far too much in them to suddenly do a U-turn and go back to 26".
However as I've invested quite a lot in upgrading my MTB, I may well investigate the idea of building a new one, rather than buying whole.
With regard to road bikes - I bought a MY14 Giant Defy 1 a few months back, which I really like.
However the same applies to road bikes - I'll not replace it until the situation with disc brakes sorts itself out.
The wheel size thing has put me off the idea of buying bikes or looking at reviews.The industry gets what it deserves. Sorry.
exactly that.
the reason I'm contributing to lack of 26" sales is NOT because I don't want 26, and about to buy 650b. It's because I'm sitting waiting for the industry to sort itself out. So the industry better think again whenever they use the words "sales of 26 have plunged" as a sales pitch trying to promote 650b.
I don't want to buy 650b or 29, because it's 650b/29. But in 2-3 years time I may buy whatever is the standard.
In the mean time, I'll keep riding what I have. And the last bike I bought was intended to be a bike for life.
If the "industry" has shot itself in the foot being greedy, then that's not my problem.
Just because a 'standard' has bern introduced, there is no guarantee of it sticking. Who remembers 1¼ headsets?
Wheelsize thing, which also contributed to cancelling of mags.
The wheel size thing has put me off the idea of buying bikes or looking at reviews.The industry gets what it deserves. Sorry.
Plus 1.
PS, add forks,headsets stems+bars, 9+10+11, and even before that I had a problem with the extensive variety of mech hangers that seemed totally over the top.
My options now seem to be stick or twist(new bike) - which I might have done if I was young and trendy[and was prepared to do same for gf so eases carrying tubes/spares etc] - I'm neither, I started mtb on a 7 speed and am happily bimbling around on a 2005ish Orange 5, me and the gf have 4 'old standard' bikes, with a fair level of spares interchangeability etc, given our ages we'll (*hopefully) be finishing our careers on 'old standard bikes' and I've stockpiled accordingly.
The Orange was bought new(*admittedly at bargain price) but the discs were to me a quantum change (worked better, much less maintenance and no hideous screeecwrecchhhhh either on muddy days) and the suspension was much more advanced (I went from elastomer and underdamped coil) - bar sizes and wheelsizes don't (imho) give anything like that level of gain.
+1for disc brakes and suspension being game changers in their day. The very fact that there is still a wheel size debate still running suggests to me that the new wheels sizes , whichever one you choose, are not game changers. It they were our trendy freinds with new bikes would be at the top of hills waiting whilst us old schoollers were still puffing up the hill. I dont see that out on the trails.
I also think that those of us who have been around for a while have got sceptical of the big bike brands marketing hype. To me when i read the mags and corporste webs sites I hear the following.... you know that bike we sold you a few years ago that was the best bike you were ever going to get..... well weve decided it wasnt that great after all and now we want to tell you about this new wonder bike that reinvents every detail of the old bike.
Change for change sake. Did the old octalink bb ever have anything wrong with it. Lasted forever, stiff in a real world sense (not lab test stiff) and silent running.
There's nothing wrong with square taper BBs.
I hate his thread. I haven't ordered my new bike because of it.
All I wanted was a better platform on the rear end and something faster than my Yeti that's the right size. And now you all talk as though it'll be the wrong bike again soon. And if I buy it, who's going to buy my yeti bike or frame? Two outdated bikes in 12 months and a shed full of tied in cash.
Boo. 🙁
Which makes me think I should keep my yeti and pile of 26 spares for the fun days out and go and buy a £1500 anthem 29er for endurance events.
Why would anyone want to buy your Yeti if it's not good enough for you?
It is good enough for me. It's lacking a platform back end and the (marketed?) capability of bigger wheels for speed over long distance. Hence my second post.
Hence, by buying the Anthem I'm effectively throwing the Yeti in the bin. Why not buy the 29" anthem for e long days and nights out and use the yeti for the fun times?
Sounds like a first world problem, head turned by marketing bs, mid-life crisis.
Keep your bike; ride it and enjoy it.
Good advice methinks.
Was discussig thi and agreed that actual suspension and actual brake smade a difference
the kille ris My Ornage 5 is pretty much like every other Orange 5 ever made in 26 flavour
10 or 11 gears is not any reall difference over what i have it is just spread differently
If they want to get me to spend 4k on a bike they need to make what I own obsolete as I am not doing it to get 11 gears. That is what they are trying to do in some cases it is working in some ways it is not. They need to persuade those of us daft enough to spend 4 k on a bile to do it. Wheel size is there new way
IMHO they will have to accept they will need to service all standards. Fork choice is not great but i guess i will make do with some 650 b if I need to change.
Whatever you buy is going to be Superseded....
I really wouldn't worry about it...just buy ride and enjoy..don't overthink it.
it if you ride it enough you'll wear it out anyway it's only another consumable 🙂
After reading this I see its not just me and the people I ride with who had stopped buying since wheelgate. All that crap just gave me the hump and now im not buying anything unless something brakes.
I would have been in the market for a frame change by now but you know what bollox to them. I would need new wheels and a set of forks and that's not happening.
Even though I can afford it I don't want to, and now im not buying anything bike related and plenty of others feel the same.
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I opened my shop at the beginning of summer, was rather busy but tailed off towards the end of the holidays and when the kids went back to school. Sales however haven't been stellar compared with industry benchmarks but despite new bikes coming out, most sales will be prior to the spring.
Blimey! A dyslexic stonemason; he can't get much business...
I would never have guessed you were homophonic.
Two outdated bikes in 12 months
how are they outdated?
I only got back into MTB-ing a few years ago. I didn't and in fact still don't really know about all the standards. What I do know, is it's confusing and alienating for people getting into it, or trying to get into it. The cost of everything in the industry is way OTT. I can't begin to imagine ever spending thousands on a mountain bike. I could never justify that to myself unless I was seriously minted. Even then, the mark up and profit is at greedy levels which annoys me.
The wheel size thing is a genuine frustration for many, myself included. Nobody wants to be left holding an out of date standard that nobody will buy and that becomes worthless. It doesn't mean they become a bad bike overnight, no, nobody is saying that. It's that as consumers, if we are left holding on to older standards, we get hit with lack of availability, higher prices and lack of development and innovation. We buy new tech and we get hit with more price premiums that are simply unaffordable, and it's too much of an expense to gamble as to which ones remain supported and backed by "the industry". Then the cycle starts again...
For me there is too much greed. What justification is there for some components to cost what they do? A single piece of machined aluminium with a logo on that takes 1 minute to make...that'll be £175 please.
ohnohesback - MemberSounds like a first world problem, head turned by marketing bs
Said this before but it actually doesn't seem to be like that... Santa Cruz were one of the first companies to really get into 650b and they've said that they did it because of public pressure- and interestingly, public pressure from people who've never ridden a 650b bike. So sure, they're selling us the emperor's new clothes but it doesn't seem to be marketing or even particularily industry led. At least, not initially.
Not to say there's not a huge amount of marketing bullshit involved. Giant's was genius "That 29er Giant you love? It's AWFUL. Why did you buy that? You moron."
Why were we asking for a bike with a wheel size that did not exist that we had not tried?
IT was BS with them trying to say they were serving us
In all honesty I have never heard anyone demand a new wheel size before the industry started it. I doubt any of us did.
Well these threads do remind me how much STW is a magnet for grumpy old men in rose tinted specs..
"I'll never buy a new bike again after how they treated me"
"it's all just marketing BS to steal my money from me"
"Road's where it's at"
"CX's where is's at"
"Commuting's where it's at"
blah blah blah
Personally like innovation, better ranges of gears, engineering out the front mech, wider bars, innovation from different sources not Road or maybe a bit of XC racing.
Yes 650b has been a right balls up and has stopped the new 26" market but it will pass and we will get over it, in a few years you will still get rubber and rims for 26, forks might be harder but things will space to fit. People will replace what they have because it's old and tired or knackered.
When they do they might get a shock that the 10 year old wonder bike they had could have been improved on.
And while were here whats with the fixation on picking the most expensive version of a bike and declaring they all cost that? Cars don't all cost Ferrari money bikes don't all cost £7k. The modern bike world is providing some real quality at the cheaper end with reliability and spares that were not there historically.
On price the likes of Superstar etc. have kind of turned the component market a bit upside down, simply copying stuff or buying stuff to be branded up with no R&D etc. means they can undercut people. Just means they don't have anything to give back to come up with something new themselves. The French and German sellers in the race to the bottom on pricing will do each other out of business or pressure from the rest of the retail sector will cut off their supply of very cheap parts - would you rather your LBS had access to the parts at those prices?
Mikewsmith, if ever a nail has had its head hit more accurately, lasers must have been used.
Junkyard - lazarusWhy were we asking for a bike with a wheel size that did not exist that we had not tried?
Because we're muppets. Or, well, more specifically the US market are muppets since that's what drove it. 29ers created the interest but people were nervous of such a big change, even now people still say "oh they're cumbersome/can't do corners/only for XC".
So 650b is the option that offers all of the novelty, and much less actual change- perfect. "I want bigger wheels because 26 inch is boring, but I'm worried I'll notice"
better ranges of gears, engineering out the front mech,
It has not done the former- you have to buy after market larger cogs for this and even then the range is still less than a 2 x 7 never mind a 2 x 9. As for the later you sacrifice gears for what purpose? Its not like a front mech is a pain.
IMHO Superstar have done a 1/10 th of what On one have [ or merlin or riblle or CRC] and are not innovative in any way shape or form. IMHO they are not even all that cheap either.
Innovation is great but this is change that adds at best, what Brailsford would call, "marginal gains". They are not game changers like STI was for road or Disc brakes or suspension that worked was for MTB. If it excites you fine but it is done to generate sales rather than make your riding better,safer or more fun.
NW I do not believe that explanation for one second - I assume you are saying what they say rather than what you think.
Yeah, that's what I do 😆
I've never heard anyone in the industry describe it tthe way I do tbh but it seems pretty clear. If it'd been industry led like most people believe, how is it that most of the industry was caught so much on the hop? None of the biggest manufacturers had a 650b product ready to go.
I am tired and my senses are dulled...... I still cannot tell if it is sarcasm 😳
I think there's a basic truth that I know now if I buy a bike, the industry won't let me upgrade it. By the time I want new forks, the headtube will be wrong, seat tube obsolete ect ect.
So why not stick with what I have, given it too is obsolete, but at least lasted me 10+ years, whereas this years new model will be largely obsolete in 5 if the current trends persist.
Greedy manufatureers, looking to bolster mature markets by introducing the one thing that was constant, ie standards, are to blame. I'm also a smaller kind of guy - 26 make sense to me in a way new ones dont. You can always make a small bike bigger. (stem, post) you can't make a big bike smaller without taking lumps out of the frame.
Greed killed enthusiasm with see through marketing ploys. We're not as daft as the manufacturers would have us believe.
It has not done the former- you have to buy after market larger cogs for this and even then the range is still less than a 2 x 7 never mind a 2 x 9. As for the later you sacrifice gears for what purpose? Its not like a front mech is a pain.
I'll accept you are tired but there was a comma in there to separate the 2, 10 sp delivered a 11-36t expanding the range (usable on 3x if you really want). SRAM 1x11 delivered a reduced but still massive range from a single ring option with NW/Clutch to remove the need for chain devices and front mechs dropping a nice amount of weight off a bike. For some that has been a great step forward, remember the bike industry is not manufacturing just for you it's doing it for a huge range of customers with a variety of demands. the XX1 adoption I have seen among racers tells me there is something in it.
there was a comma in there to separate the 2
Probably why I called them the former and the later and addressed them separately.
I am sure we can all produce the same amount of watts as a racer and are as interested in weight. You also forgot the fact the bigger wheels are heavier whilst telling us about weight saving gains.
Still at least we agree dropping a front mech results in having a smaller range. If you wish to call this
a great step forward
then who am I to disagree.
I am not even sure it is a marginal gain tbh as you sacrifice range to secure some minimal weight gains [ about 200- 300 grams] assuming you do not use an extender at the rear.
My super scientific analysis.
I used to have 1x9, and was jiggered at the top of climbs
I then went to 3x9, and was knackered at the top of climbs, but slightly less so.
Then I moved to 1x11. I'm still just as knackered at the top of climbs as I was with 3x9, but less jiggered than 1x9, but my bike is lighter, the chain never comes off and there is less to go wrong than 3x9.
1x11 wins.
Genuine q How is 1 x 11 lighter than 1 x 9 given it has more chain rings on the cassette and a larger one at the back ?
Clearly you can make 9 rings weigh less than 11 as you just remove two from the 11
Genuine q How is 1 x 11 lighter than 1 x 9 given it has more chain rings on the cassette and a larger one at the back ?
Clearly you can make 9 rings weigh less than 11 as you just remove two from the 11
Advances in design? This wasn't an over night change, probably 5 years between ditching 1x9 and getting 1x11. Admittedly going from LX/XT level to XX1 will have helped. Though a quick google suggests that the base level 11s cassette (x1) is only 15g heavier than a 9s XT. 315g plays 300g.
Did he say that?
but my bike is lighter, the chain never comes off and there is less to go wrong than 3x9
I infer that either:
- the bike, which happens to have 1x11 is lighter than the one which happened to have 1x9
- 1x11 is lighter than 3x9
You are correct that all things being equal 1x9 will be lighter than 1x11 - an XG999 9 speed cassette is 175g, an XX1 is 260g, an XD driver is lighter, 11 speed chains are lighter. Rear mech was 197g for 9 speed medium X.0 and 220g for XX1, so it gets quite close. XX1 will be lighter than a Deore (or even XT) 1x9 set up.
1x11's not lighter than 1x9 but it has less drawbacks too. Singlespeed's lighter than 1x but it's not a real alternative to 2x for most folks.
1x's kind of an interesting one just because it's different, not better. I like it, because the drawbacks of it kind of suit me (in the same way as some folks like singlespeed) and I like the simplicity and quiet of it, and the chain retention/security, and the better mud manners. The weight reduction's just a wee bonus. But it's not [i]better[/i] than 2x
It's also let manufacturers do some things with frame design that aren't possible with multiple rings, which I'm a wee bit ambivalent about but it certainly adds options.
OTOH I know people who declare it perfect for their riding and just seem to conveniently forget all the times they end up walking.
I wasnt really looking for people to slate the current vogues in mountain bike technology!!
As was really after comments from other folks that were in the trade ,a comparison of whos busy etc.
Read this on the first page (Couldn't be arsed with the next four TBH, so this may all be repetition)...
It strikes me that maybe you should be asking the potential customers rather than "The Trade" those in other shops that know how to deal with/ avoid a slump will probably be keeping their best tricks as closely guarded as they can...
For my own part as a consumer of bikes and related paraphernalia, I think this time of year brings on a different set of priorities, the getting together of kit for the up-coming winter, warm/dry clothing possibly assembling a reliable SS bike, mudguards for the commuter, mulling over tyre choices, etc, etc and then of course do the kids need a new bike for Christmas? New bikes for me just ain't on the radar...
Genuine q How is 1 x 11 lighter than 1 x 9 given it has more chain rings on the cassette and a larger one at the back ?
Clearly you can make 9 rings weigh less than 11 as you just remove two from the 11
More gaps inint, there's more air between the sprockets on an 11 speed cassette... 😉
It makes little sense to use the singular if you mean two [ or more] completely different bikes. It makes even less sense for us both to discuss once he has answered
Cheers tom marginal if any, gains.
I can see the appeal of 1 x 11 locally [ though I can SS it all anyway]but not for proper mountains.
OP. I think the boom for MTB's has eased. The fad followers are moving on to follow another fad, some got turned on by Wiggo and Froome in Lycra, some got put off by the very wet winter, some got old and cynical, some felt the Olympic buzz for track and road racing and some just went back to playing golf.
MTB has been one of the fastest growing sports/hobbies over the last 15 years and now it has plateaued, no big issue the scene is vibrant, has great depth and due to the boom we have some amazing new places and bikes to ride. Happy days.
Custom builds have never been so bloody enjoyable 😀
I can see the appeal of 1 x 11 locally [ though I can SS it all anyway]but not for proper mountains.
As pointed out not everything developed in mountain biking is for you.