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The poor see inflation lowering their living standards.
Those who benefit £220 a year under the new tax system still see lowered living standards because of inflation.
But the rich, the bankers, those whose tax rate is dropping from 50% to 45%, they are going to benefit by an average of £240,00 a year.
No recession for them!
TandemJeremy - MemberIs here
As predicted by everyone bar tory apologists the financial incompetents now running he country have pushed us back into recession.
So obvious this was going to happen. shows how incompetent they are.
Crikey TJ ... talking about "unbias" comments ... Do you expect someone to turn the country around in 2 years? Have you been smoking something?
TJ, to be frank there is only one person that can turn the economy around ... yes, you guess it ... it is your worship the Dear Leader. Dear Leader can enforce collective farming, collective living, collective hard labour for you lot ... Dear Leader will appoint you, TJ, as the labour force driver and bestow you with power so immense you become god like. You can punish them or educate them in your image.
🙄
Do you expect someone to turn the country around in 2 years?
Well the last government got Britain out of recession in 2 years.
And this present government confidently predicted that public sector job cuts would be absorbed by a booming private sector - what happened ?
Even only last month they were claiming that everything was going to plan :
[url= http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/uk_national_news/9603606.Upbeat_Osborne_predicts_more_growth/ ]Upbeat Osborne predicts more growth[/url]
Despite the fact that nothing appears to have been going to plan from the start. Apart from the wealthy getting wealthier of course.
Was Britain still in recession when the last government took over?
No, nor was Britain in recession when this government took over. What's your point caller.....that the last government caused the global recession ? 🙂
Ernie, TJ: you two are a lost cause 🙂
Thanks for correcting yourself, Ernie.
Edit: Changed my mind, don't have the energy to argue.
Usa, Germany. UK all followed similar policies until the tories got in when no more stimulus only cuts applied by the tories
OK TJ where do we get the money for the economic renaissance that will be started by your infrastructure projects etc?
Raise taxes? Good way to kill off demand and snuff out any smidgeon of recovery
Raise government borrowing. Well if you are the USA and have the world reserve currency then yes you could get away with it. If UK tried it bond yields would increase and mortgages with them taking money out of the pockets of the few people in this country who might have some, again killing off demand. Really just accept there is no easy way out of this even if those evil Tories weren't around.
uponthedowns
Of course there is a way out of this - other counties are doing it. The tory austerity policy is simply wrong. every economic indicator shows this
they are increasing the deficit because their polices lead to increased government spend in benefits and decreased tax take.
Under the tories
Growth down, tax take down, unemployment up, government spending up. they are making the situation worse not better
No Scamper, nothing edited, nothing corrected. Have you figured out what your point was yet ? Or was there no point to your question ?
.
swedishmatt - MemberErnie, TJ: you two are a lost cause
Well according you anyone who didn't go to a Swedish university is a lost cause. Shall I remind you what you said : [i]"I don't think anyone actually gets what I'm saying. Not surprising really given the Uk education system"[/i] So if anyone disagrees with you it's all down to British education. Handy that.
Of course there is a way out of this - other counties are doing it. The tory austerity policy is simply wrong. every economic indicator shows this
Answer the question. Where's the money coming from?
Where's the money coming from?
When there's a recession you build up a deficit, it's standard practice. When the recession has passed you reduce the deficit, although this is no longer standard practice as politicians now like to give tax cuts instead. Getting people in work providing goods and services creates wealth - throwing them on the dole heap doesn't.
From the same place as the money the Tories are wasting - do you understand that they are making it worse - not better - the deficit is increasing, they are borrowing more.
The money comes from decreased government spend ( as the benefits bill drops) and increased tax take ( as economic activity increases) as well as growth.
What bit of this do you not understand
Under the tory austerity policy - unemployment up = increased government spending, economic activity down = decreased tax take - put the two together you get increasing debt and deficit.
the Tory austerity obsession is making things worse not better.
From the same place as the money the Tories are wasting
Which is where? If you mean spending to take make work to take people off benefits then that will cost more than simply keeping them on benefits so where is the extra money coming from?
If we try to increase the deficit Ernie then the interest rates on government bonds will go up thus increasing interest payments and burying us deeper in the debt hole
Answer the question. Where's the money coming from?
Same place all the money comes from?
I could quote the Nobel-prize winning economist again if you like, who said that George Osbourne has been massively exaggerating the risk of a Greece style default, and concentrating too much on austerity with the result of stifling growth.
We keep being told 'we're broke' as a country, but it's not actually true at all. What they mean is there is a small possibility we lose our AAA credit rating, which would make borrowing marginally more expensive.
Same place all the money comes from?
You mean print some more? That's been tried
Raise taxes? Good way to kill off demand and snuff out any smidgeon of recovery
As george has shown us so is increased unemployment and high inflation.
If you mean spending to take make work to take people off benefits then that will cost more than simply keeping them on benefits so where is the extra money coming from?
so if we were all unemployed everything would be better?
Does it .can you prove this
People in work spend money on stuff [ demand which goes to other people to make and deliver stuff who pay wages to people who pay taxes and dont claim benefits and spend their money on stuff there by increasing demand and taxes etc.
You mean print some more? That's been tried
Nope, borrow more and invest it in infrastructure, education etc which will boost the economy now and improve things in the longer term.
The current strategy is failing, what do you suggest?
If we try to increase the deficit Ernie.......
Best reduce it then. But you won't reduce it by throwing people on the dole and cutting consumer demand. That's been proved.
History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce.
What they mean is there is a small possibility we lose our AAA credit rating, which would make borrowing marginally more expensive.
From its current level which is bugger all to the 5-6% Spain and Italy are having to pay? I'd say that would make a bit of a hole in the nation's finances.
Well the tory con really has convinced some folk. Look at that graph I put up a bit ago - Germany and the US - doing far better than us and pursuing different policies. Are the two connected?
Which is where? If you mean spending to take make work to take people off benefits then that will cost more than simply keeping them on benefits so where is the extra money coming from?
From the extra economic activity that will occur.
uponthedowns - Member"Same place all the money comes from?"
You mean print some more? That's been tried
Indeed it has - and shown to work. Whereas austerity cuts do not work.
so it triple A or spain and Italy ratings with nothing in between 🙄
what is the america rating currently?
How have they coped?
What they mean is there is a small possibility we lose our AAA credit rating, which would make borrowing marginally more expensive.
From its current level which is bugger all to the 5-6% Spain and Italy are having to pay? I'd say that would make a bit of a hole in the nation's finances.
Where are you geting that idea from? Rabid right wing tabloid scare mongering perhaps?
I bevieve there is talk of potentially dropping Britain's rating from AAA to AA which will make very little difference. Tell me, what's Spain's rating?
From the extra economic activity that will occur.
Which might occur after you spend the extra money. As I said where's it coming from? One of these?
[img] 
[/img]
I agree that quantitative easing has a place. It hasn't so far impacted out ability to borrow money but its been used so far very ineffectually. Basically the banks are sitting on it to rebuilt their balance sheets. It would probably have been better to throw the money out of helicopters to the people who might spend it.
I bevieve there is talk of potentially dropping Britain's rating from AAA to AA
That's with current spending plans. Increase spending and lets see how long it takes to get to BBB+ where Spain and Italy are currently.
Osbourne [b]is increasing[/b] spending and increasing the deficit by putting people out of work and pushing us into recession.
Read the quote from the nobel prise winner again - Osbournes policies are making the situation worse not better.
OK lets implement your plan TJ and increase spending even further. You still haven't answered the question. Where's the money coming from?
I'm off to bed now. Maybe you'll have answered by the morning.
It has been answered several times. 🙄
Trouble is you don't want to admit that the tor policy is making things worse as it clearly is.
Let's read what Moody's said in their warning:
In a statement yesterday, Moody's mentioned the 'increased uncertainty regarding the pace of fiscal consolidation in the UK due to materially weaker growth prospects over the next few years'.
So they are saying they aren't convinced about the governments ability to reduce its debts/deficit any time soon, because of a lack of prospects for growth.
Doesnt that sound like lack of growth is the main threat to our credit rating? And what is the chancellor doing to encourage growth again? Erm............
uponthedowns - Member
OK lets implement your plan TJ and increase spending even further. You still haven't answered the question. Where's the money coming from?
From the same place we borrowed the £126bn for 2011/2012?
What a joy to come back into. Personalising debates and falsely assuming people's positions yet again TJ. I am not sure what is funnier/frustrating to read the Internet bullying style or the quality of the economic analysis. But if after repeated requests you want to keep it up, so be it. If that's what it takes to keep you happy carry on. The mods obviously tolerate it - I guess you do keep the page numbers up!! In the meantime, we can amuse ourself with the economic ranting.
Funny how most professional commentators have managed to elevate the analysis of current events above e political rhetoric but not STW!! Enjoy the early hours!
Edit: interesting to see we have gone from Tory spending cuts causing the recession to Osborne now increasing spending. Which one is it?
grum - MemberSo they are saying they aren't convinced about the governments ability to reduce its debts/deficit any time soon, because of a lack of prospects for growth.
Our debt is long term as I mentioned a few pages ago, we have a long debt maturity profiles @ 14 years, over double that of Spain, Portugal, Germany, nearly double that of Greece and over 3 times longer than the US. It costs us less to service and will be longer before we need to refinance so now is actually the perfect time to borrow more.
Teamhurtmore - - are you being deliberately ironical? making a personal attack on me?
Edit: interesting to see we have gone from Tory spending cuts causing the recession to Osborne now increasing spending. Which one is it?
Eh?
Our debt is long term as I mentioned a few pages ago, we have a long debt maturity profiles @ 14 years, over double that of Spain, Portugal, Germany, nearly double that of Greece and over 3 times longer than the US. It costs us less to service and will be longer before we need to refinance so now is actually the perfect time to borrow more.
Aye, seems worth a try, seeing as the current plan is failing.
interesting to see we have gone from Tory spending cuts causing the recession to Osborne now increasing spending. Which one is it?
Both as explained many times.
Under the tory austerity policy - unemployment up = increased government spending, economic activity down = decreased tax take - put the two together you get increasing debt and deficit.
Trouble is you don't want to admit that the tor policy is making things worse as it clearly is.
I don't get that impression. I get the impression that uponthedowns believes there is no alternative. And to be fair he's not alone, the TINA mantra has been widely accepted for a long time, getting as it does almost unchallenged supremacy in the media. And in essence, support from all three main political parties. The Labour Party's position is not fundamentally different, they just would do what the Tories are doing but at a slightly slower speed and with a slightly different emphasis. Which explains why Labour are so weak when it comes to attacking the Tory's economic policies - they offer no real credible alternative. To do so would be far too scarey for them - it would mean taking on the press/media, which quite frankly terrifies them, and passionately putting the case for alternative economic policies to a public which has been molded into believing that there is no alternative to neo-liberalism. So best to play safe and not risk your rewarding political career. Although this might prove to be a little shortsighted as there is vague evidence that people might be starting to seek out other possible 'radical' alternatives. Something which is likely to increase as things get considerably worse.
Which explains why Labour are so weak when it comes to attacking the Tory's economic policies - they offer no real credible alternative. To do so would be far too scarey for them - it would mean taking on the press/media, which quite frankly terrifies them, and passionately putting the case for alternative economic policies to a public which has been molded into believing that there is no alternative to neo-liberalism.
Completely agree.
Completely agree.
+1
Doubt any govt will be able to come up with better policies so the only thing they can do is to ride out the recession with less pain.
The present govt is doing just that but with more pain because they want to change the culture of overreliance on the govt for handouts ...
🙄
Not to get drawn into the main debate- I'd rather eat my own leg- but can anyone enlighten me as to why anyone still takes these credit ratings seriously? Moodys considered Greece an A proposition til mid 2010 after all, and it seems widely accepted that the misrating of toxic debt packages was contributory to the banking crisis to boot.
The Labour Party's position is not fundamentally different, they just would do what the Tories are doing but at a slightly slower speed and with a slightly different emphasis. Which explains why Labour are so weak when it comes to attacking the Tory's economic policies - they offer no real credible alternative. To do so would be far too scarey for them - it would mean taking on the press/media, which quite frankly terrifies them, and passionately putting the case for alternative economic policies to a public which has been molded into believing that there is no alternative to neo-liberalism.
well put
What a joy to come back into...I am not sure what is funnier/frustrating to read
If there's no joy and all frustration in you reading this thread - just don't.
can anyone enlighten me as to why anyone still takes these credit ratings seriously?
Many investment managers for e.g. pension funds have mandates that say "this fund will not invest in any bonds with less than a AAA rating". The upside of that is that it means investment managers of a high security low growth can't go putting the whole lot in Libyan Emu futures; the downside is that it does rather leave the whole system reliant on the ratings agencies.
Ernie what's your solution then? 😆
Let me guess.....
Kona, the thread is fine and interesting, Just the shame about some bits of behaviour especially when mods try to prevent it. But life goes on!
So the UK is doing everything so much worse than everyone else? Hmmm, so if that was the case - weak prospects, incorrect policy mix, negative real interest rates, rising unemployment, bust banks, more QE, the value of the £ would.......?
........go down. Actually not a bad thing and that was th actual policy not so long ago. Massive monetary stimulus, low rates, QE and weaker currency was the BOE chosen route.
...but what is happening now? Given all those presumably smart people looking at FX rates know at last as much as STW posters, you would expect them to be selling the £ a lot.....it's the basket case of Europe, right? Instead the £ keeps on rising (up 5% against the dollar and 2% against the Eur0 YTD. Honestly, how can all those clever people be making such a stupid decision. The mind boggles 😉
Honestly, how can all those clever people be making such a stupid decision. The mind boggles
Didn't this financial crisis come about through a lot of very clever people making very stupid decisions?
Didn't this financial crisis come about through a lot of very [s]clever[/s] [i]overpaid[/i] people making very stupid decisions?
Better
Didn't this financial crisis come about [s]through a lot of very clever overpaid people making very stupid decisions?[/s]because the history of capitalism is the history of boom and bust.
THM once more you tells us how the market is reacting* this and not how the ordinary person in the street is reacting to this.
We should be trying to help the majority not the rich elitists who value money above all else...you will be telling me the market never gets anything wrong next and has a moral voice and conscious. perhaps you could use tobacco or asbestos to illuminate your argument.
We need to balance the two [ if we have capitalism] and it is not unreasonable to suggest that there may be a Plan b that would be better.
* this is as much an indication the Euro is on the radar and they think they have more power than Europe so they will take it on so to speak to - US is in an election hence their is uncertainty in the market place as well as the debts issue Mit will slash and burn as well I imagine hence barak wont]
Surely the rich clever people made clever decisions? They just dont give a **** about others.
Surely we don't want an expensive Pound as that makes our exports less competitive and just encourages us to buy stuff from abroad.
Didn't this financial crisis come about through a lot of very [s]clever[/s] overpaid people making very stupid decisions and taking advantage of even more stupider people?
EDIT:
Surely we don't want an expensive Pound as that makes our exports less competitive and just encourages us to buy stuff from abroad.
Exactly and it might be a good idea to lower costs too, this might just help achieve a competitive price. Unfortunately when this is tried the selfish unions try and put a stop to it.
Unfortunately when this is tried the selfish unions try and put a stop to it.
It's been a while since the unions have been blamed for the state of the economy, so well done don simon for so creatively linking "selfish unions" with the double-dip recession Britain is now experiencing.
If only selfless industrialists and bankers were allowed to run the country instead of greedy trade unions eh ?
It's been a while since the unions have been blamed for the state of the economy, so well done don simon for so creatively linking "selfish unions" with the double-dip recession Britain is now experiencing.
At least you waited for the edit this time, unfortunately you still insist on putting you own little twist on what people say to try and make yourself look smart.
If only selfless industrialists and bankers were allowed to run the country instead of greedy trade unions eh ?
If that's what you truly believe ernesto, then why not?
EDIT FOR ERNESTO: I also assume that that is some witty snipe at my beliefs, yet you have no idea what my beliefs are except that I believe unions have priced the UK out of the competition.
DS your trolls and subsequent defence are rather obvious [resist the denial
How can I put a "twist" on what you say don simon - it's there in black and white.
You have very clearly said that Britain needs to lower costs to be more competitive, but that unfortunately when this is tried the selfish unions try to put a stop to it. If that isn't linking the trade unions with the state of the economy then I don't know what is.
I don't think pointing out the absurdity of trying to blame the trade unions for the state of the economy makes me look smart......perhaps it's more a case of you feeling stupid ?
EDIT FOR ERNESTO: I also assume that that is some witty snipe at my beliefs, yet you have no idea what my beliefs are except that I believe unions have priced the UK out of the competition.
yeah we'd be much better off if we were more like china or something. Or the usa or er... Trying to think of a good example....
Troll? Can a person not offer a different view without being accused of trolling?
Is it OK to slag off the bankers and the bosses yet not to say anything against the trade unions?
The lady doth protest me thinks?
Might I suggest you do a bit of reading on Ricardo Semler before simply accusing me of trolling.
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29 ]
[/url]In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion
You now have my emotional response.
Is it OK to slag off the bankers and the bosses yet not to say anything against the trade unions?
You can say what you like about trade unions, but when you apportion blame on them for the state of the economy on a thread about double-dip recession, then expect to be challenged. Or more likely, ridiculed.
Or more likely, ridiculed.
So you're telling me that the high costs of manufacture in the UK are competitive on a global scale then?
That companies are queueing up to put manufacturing bases here becasue the unions won't pull the workforce out on strike?
Are you saying that unions have zero responsibilty on the economic crisis?
yes it is proper on topic and now i have read the wiki link you have so changed my mind. Yes you believe what you are saying, it is highly relevant and we should discuss to what extent the powerful unions have caused and stifled the recovery...what issue should we start with then?
Lighting strikes?
The General strike?
Flying Pickets?
Walkouts without votes?
national unrest?
God really where should we start ...thanks for reminding us all
EDIT: no myu mistake can we pin dance about what the word "Are you saying that unions have zero responsibilty on the economic crisis" zero means in this sentence.
i have seen nothing credible that argues that the cause of the current economic crisis has anything to do with the unions...I would remind you of germany which is much more Unionised than here so
yada yadda
You are cpt flash and I claim my £5
I cant be arsed DS but I am sure someone will
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9049505/Days-lost-to-strikes-hit-20-year-high.html ]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9049505/Days-lost-to-strikes-hit-20-year-high.html[/url]
if you take out the public sector striking over pensions [ after all they make f all and contribute nothing to the economy iirc] what do the figures say then?
oh I then read your link it syas pretty much that...so its the unions and the public sector wot done it....yes you got me now I really cannot beat this faultless logic...still I am more bored than you off to build wheel ...enjoy the games
Anyone who thinks the Tories got us into a recession is naive IMO. Equally if we think a Labour government would see us with growth - equally naive.
We're not as rich as we thought we were - it was all based on debt remember.
Developing countries have seen us get rich and wealthy on the back of postwar growth and are now, as they see it, straightening things out. And why not?
This isn't a short term recession which we;ll come out of next year, back to what we got used to, or even a lost decade. It's a long overdue IMO rebalancing of wealth and power in the world - we industrialised first and got first mover advantage, that's all.
Instead of giving other countries aid, we'll trade with them. They'll get richer. Doesn't mean we get poorer, prob just more equal.
It's called globalisation. No political party or political ideology/dogma is likely to produce a better way of dealing with it IMO... it's too big, too fundamental
Those who have most to gain from the status quo - politicians, bankers, chief execs, union leaders etc etc are unhappy about this - they quite like the wealth, power and status they have (who wouldn't?) they're scared of an equalisation, so I wouldn't listen to anything they have to say, they're scared and trying to stop the inevitable change coming thru...
Just accept we're not going to go back to the economic growth we've got used to all our lives... no bad thing IMO, maybe we'll be a nicer society for it...
if you take out the public sector striking over pensions [ after all they make f all and contribute nothing to the economy iirc] what do the figures say then?
But they are a cost.
yes you got me now I really cannot beat this faultless logic.
Actually you can, but only when you don't think hard enough. Are you saying that unions pushing labour costs up has made us more or less competitive on the global stage?
Are you saying that I believe the unions are the sole contributors to the credit crisis? Or am I saying that they should be included as part of the problem and could if they wanted be part of the solution?
Perhaps the German unions work with the companies as a team rather than taking a more black and white attitude we have here (both in industry and the forum).
Are you saying that unions have zero responsibilty on the economic crisis?
Er yes - zero responsibility for the economic crisis. It wasn't the trade unions who caused the global credit crunch, they didn't demand the deregulation of the finance sector, they didn't encourage incompetence by greedy bankers, they didn't ask for lower wages so that their members would have to rely on easy credit to make ends meet, they didn't push up the price of housing through speculation, they didn't demand that government contracts go to foreign companies with the loss of UK skills, they are not responsible for overproduction and underconsumption, they haven't demanded job cuts which only contribute to growing doles queues, in fact, without trade unions the economy would be in a worse place, as the minute influence they have does put a slight brake on otherwise rampant free-market capitalism.
That companies are queueing up to put manufacturing bases here becasue the unions won't pull the workforce out on strike?
Go on then - tell me.......when was the last significant strike in Britain's manufacturing sector.
EDIT : Actually on reflection the trade unions do indeed have some responsibility, in that they didn't do enough to oppose the disastrous neoliberal policies which got us into this mess. Not even when Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were in power, when they shamefully did nothing to stop the pair carrying on with the neoliberal experiment.
Go on then - tell me.......when was the last significant strike in Britain's manufacturing sector.
Do you only work in absolutes? Can you not get your head around trends, I'll spell it out for you, shall I?
Does it have to be a single national stike?
Er yes - zero responsibility for the economic crisis. It wasn't the trade unions who caused the global credit crunch, they didn't demand the deregulation of the finance sector, they didn't encourage incompetence by greedy bankers, they didn't ask for lower wages so that their members would have to rely on easy credit to make ends meet, they didn't push up the price of housing through speculation, they didn't demand that government contracts go to foreign companies with the loss of UK skills, they are not responsible for overproduction and underconsumption, they haven't demanded job cuts which only contribute to growing doles queues, in fact, without trade unions the economy would be in a worse place, as the minute influence they have does put a slight brake on otherwise [b]rampant free-market capitalism[/b].
And that, of course, is your failing ernesto.
With regard to demanding job cuts, are you saying that pushing up costs isn't likely to result in job cuts during a crisis?
Are you saying that the new found wealth that the unions got the workforce didn't drive demand in the housing market?
Are you saying that Govt contracts went abroad because they were more expensive?
Are you trying to tell me that I don't apportion some of the blame to capitalism? I appears that you are. I completely agree with the fact that deregulation contributed to the crisis. I completely agree that greed contributed.
There is no middle ground with you, is there?
Just accept we're not going to go back to the economic growth we've got used to all our lives... no bad thing IMO, maybe we'll be a nicer society for it...
If it wasn't for the fact that our society is reaching new levels of inequality (which has numerous knock on harmful effects on society), then maybe.
Just popped my head round the door. Ah we're still going.
I get the impression that uponthedowns believes there is no alternative. And to be fair he's not alone, the TINA mantra has been widely accepted for a long time, getting as it does almost unchallenged supremacy in the media. And in essence, support from all three main political parties. The Labour Party's position is not fundamentally different, they just would do what the Tories are doing but at a slightly slower speed and with a slightly different emphasis.
Thanks for those sensible words Ernie. For some reason there's someone around here who thinks that anyone who disagrees with him must be a "swivel eyed" Tory. As you have pointed out I could be a Labour supporter and still have come to the same conclusion.
Do you only work in absolutes?
I have to work on what you give me, and this is what you gave me :
[i]"That companies are queueing up to put manufacturing bases here becasue the unions won't pull the workforce out on strike?"[/i]
You are very clearly claiming that companies are not putting "manufacturing bases here" because of the risk of strike action. For me to ask you "when was the last significant strike in Britain's manufacturing sector?" therefore is perfectly reasonable.
I only asked for "the last" significant strike in Britain's manufacturing sector, an easy enough request I would have thought. The fact that you don't immediately give me a single example and instead rely on retorting "Do you only work in absolutes" shows how desperately weak or non-existent your argument is.
I only asked for "the last" significant strike in Britain's manufacturing sector, an easy enough request I would have thought. The fact that you don't immediately give me a single example and instead rely on retorting "Do you only work in absolutes" shows how desperately weak or non-existent your argument is.
That's quite clever ernesto and I do see what you did, because I didn't say...
"That companies are queueing up to put manufacturing bases here becasue the unions won't pull the workforce out on significant strikes?"
...But alluded to an overall picture, and, of course, you knew that.
....there's someone around here who thinks that anyone who disagrees with him must be a "swivel eyed" Tory
Agreed......he needs to be kept in check sometimes 🙂
That's quite clever ernesto and I do see what you did, because I didn't say...
OK I'm bored now. You're having to resort to claiming that you didn't say things which you said, despite the fact that I copied and pasted it, including the spelling mistake, from your post.
[b]Significant[/b]?
Why do you want info on the "last significant" strike when I was talking in general terms?
cough.. wasnt it the unions who bank rolled the govt before and during the start of this crisis? wasnt it the unions who had two thirds of the vote in deciding who the countries leader should be when blair stood aside and democracy was swept aside? wasnt it the unions who drove expansion of the public sector to record levels? was nt it the unions who insisted that the NHS should grow its budget by inflation busting amounts every year leading it to become the 5th biggest employer in the world?
we ALL contributed to the current issues we ALL wanted everything and we wanted it now and we ALL had no corries of how it was going to be paid for.
we ALL democratically elected a new parliament and two parties joined together to govern
it wont be over by tea time it wont be over by Xmas but what goes around comes around and we ll ALL benifit when it does if we ALL accept our part in it.
With regard to demanding job cuts, are you saying that pushing up costs isn't likely to result in job cuts during a crisis?
Are you saying that the new found wealth that the unions got the workforce didn't drive demand in the housing market?
Are you saying that Govt contracts went abroad because they were more expensive?
Have to agree with Ernie here. The unions didn't have anything to do with the financial crisis.
Plenty of people at least in the private sector have taken pay cuts and reduced hours to preserve jobs which has been remarkably successful compared to previous recessions.
Increased pay did not drive up house prices- cheap credit did.
You might have a point on Government contracts I don't know but I suspect loss of a few government contracts is not a significant cause of recession.
don simon - MemberSignificant?
Why do you want info on the "last significant" strike when I was talking in general terms?
Forget it mate - you are obviously not going to back up your wild allegation. And instead attempt to squirm, backtrack, and play word games.
wasnt it the unions who drove expansion of the public sector to record levels? was nt it the unions who insisted that the NHS should grow its budget by inflation busting amounts every year leading it to become the 5th biggest employer in the world?
I'm pretty sure Gordon Brown managed that all by himself whilst Chancellor.
Forget it mate - you are obviously not going to back up your wild allegation. And instead attempt to squirm, backtrack, and play word games.
I think it's best you do ernesto. You've tried to tiwst what I've said, backed youself into a corner then highlighted my bad spelling.
You win. 🙄
Yeah right OK.
Increased pay did not drive up house prices- cheap credit did.
Unfortunately I can't see how you can't have one without the other, both increasing salaries and cheap credit played their part.
As totalshell says everyone played their part and everyone has to accept responsibility and to say that one party is 100% without responsibilty is completely absurd. 😀
I like this as an interesting model.
[url= http://www.saludygestion.com/archives/Ricardo%20Semler%20&%20Semco,%20Thunderbird.pdf ]http://www.saludygestion.com/archives/RicardoSemler[/url]
EDITED: 😳 You should've waited for the 15mins ernesto, no patience, see?