[Closed] Double dip recession

wot about all those numpties who re-mortgaed their property because of the preceived equity?

All the cheap finance, have your material fix NOW and pay later at 29.9% APR. Would you like some PPI insurance as well........

The personal greed of the masses also played it's significant part in the position we find ourselves in. The second highest personal debt ratio in the world.

http://www.thinkmoney.com/debt/news/uk-has-second-highest-debt-to-gdp-ratio-in-the-world-0-5151.htm

Derek:

Banks, Financial Institutuions caused the pain and have yet to repair their balance sheets and restore their confidence to such a point where they'll loan sufficient funds for the private sector to deliver what is required.

Slowmart:

The personal greed of the masses also played it's significant part in the position we find ourselves in. The second highest personal debt ratio in the world.

Swedishmatt:

they pretty much spent spent spent their way into massive debt.

So, can we all agree then that at every level of society everyone spent more than they had and then found they were not able to pay it back?

OK they did recover eventually and Ken Clarke handed Brown and Blair a pretty sound economy in the mid nineties and they took ten years to * it up, so logic says it will take ten years to un * it.

you mean the economy that was even more dependent on financial services and the finite oil revenue and books bouyed from the utilities sell off and that great tory invention- pension holidays?

So, can we all agree then that at every level of society everyone spent more than they had and then found they were not able to pay it back?

I didn't.

swedishmatt - Member
I wish Labour won the last election. Truly. They would have been stuck with this great unf-cuk and the population couldn't blame anyone but the incompetents themselves.

Which of their fiscal policies did Cameron and Osborne so vehemently oppose while labour were in power?

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/investing/gold/7511589/Explain-why-you-sold-Britains-gold-Gordon-Brown-told.html ]One of many.[/url]

So, can we all agree then that at every level of society everyone spent more than they had and then found they were not able to pay it back?

Me neither. During the last 10 years I've been saving to keep myself and my family safe.

kimbers - Member

that great tory invention- pension holidays?

Golden Brown loved that shizz too

Just seeing his face........by god I hate Gordon ****ing Brown.

coffeeking - Member
One of many.

😆

They weren't even in the shadow cabinet when he was selling off gold reserves ffs!

swedishmatt - Member
yeah that's a real lol one that isn't it. I'll let you stew on that. Think about it real hard.

I don't have to think real hard about it. I can imagine any number of factors influencing the economy that might be put under the heading of globalisation, hence my request for you to be more specific.

Some come on Toryboys -0 what are you going to do to get us out of this mess. Keynesian policies ( according to you ) are wrong, Its clear the austerity programme is wrong - what are you going to do?

Not one of you has had the balls to actualy put anything forward

A-A. Good luck. Hope the redundancies don't affect you. But my real point in all of this is that the politics (while fun for mischief makers) is largely meaningless. Blaming Tory cuts for the past is sloppy analysis at best, BS at worse. Government spending has risen in money and real terms throughout the Tory's period in office. Plus the real gap between Tory and Labour party spending comes in at best at 0.5% of GDP. So politicising all of this is essentially nonense. Hence you get a Labour sympathiser writing as he did in the FT today. It will be as absurd to praise the gov for positive noise around a dull trend and it is to criticise them for negative noise. Politicians react to economic events far more than drive them.

What Davies is missing is the bigger crime of the Tories and that is the cut in government investment. The current expenditure gets all the headlines as it directly affects people in health, education etc. But as yet, spending cuts have hardly started.

But, and its a big but, the area where the government SHOULD be getting more flack is on investment. Unlike the higher profile current expenditure programs, investment FELL 14% last year and forecast at -4% this year. Why are people not up in arms about this. Too long term? But public investment often underpins private investment spending which both lead to growth. But sadly, this is not being given the attention it deserves.

Derek +1 on diamond. Bloody Barc put friends out of business recently and as CEO he still employs most of the capital in a group that delivers returns below its cost of capital. And thinks that he is worth £ms. Absurd. And then the masters/monkeys of the universe at RBS announce a reverse stock split today to cosmetically adjust the share price back to a higher level in the notion that it will fool people cosmetically. More smokes and mirrors from our glorious banks

Not one of you has had the balls to actualy put anything forward

swedishmatt - Member
I wish Labour won the last election. Truly. They would have been stuck with this great unf-cuk and the population couldn't blame anyone but the incompetents themselves

Speaking of financial incompetents, wasn't Cameron Norman Lamont's right hand man during Black Wednesday?

Grum, coffeeking - excuse my use of the word "everyone". I revise that to "the vast majority" as there are some people who didn't go debt crazy when there was a lot of freely avaiilable credit around, and the temptation to buy a hell of a lot of stuff we don't need with it.

come on the gold reserves sell off thing was vastly overinflated by the torry press and plenty of people love trotting it out, because they have been convinced its a heinous crime

when gb announced the sell off gold was at a high, (his mistake was announcing he was about to do it which led to a drop in prices as everyone waited for the gold to hit the markets- not very clever but it wasnt at alow when he sold it)
also even though it was a chunk of the reserves (a 3rd?) it still only amounts to a fraction (1% ? )of our overall debt
and ultimately it never cost the country anything, it was sitting there not doing much and still would be if he hadnt sold it, of course osborne could never sell off any more because its been made out to be such a dreadful thing

If you read the article properly, which you haven't by the looks of things, you would see that there are not actually fewer teachers as a whole in the UK by 10.000 or whatever the figure was, but rather that there are fewer publically hired teachers, as more teachers are in the private sector in academies. So what you referred to as "cuts" aren't quite that based on that article. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Your wrong. Academies are still public sector. I used to work in one.
The article, if you read it properly quotes some tory no mark who says, whilst apparently giving no numbers, that the losses are within local LEA's with teaching consultants for want of a better word. I doubt there are 10 000 of these people in thecountry.

Your ignorance and confidence levels are still well out of alignment.

swedishmatt - Member
I wish Labour won the last election. Truly. They would have been stuck with this great unf-cuk and the population couldn't blame anyone but the incompetents themselve

his mistake was announcing he was about to do it which led to a drop in prices as everyone waited for the gold to hit the markets

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

it was sitting there not doing much

wrecker - Member

"Am i allowed to post on this thread as a non big hitter though?"

This was the initiation. TJ and Ernie will be emailing you with your membership details shortly.

Don't be so modest wrecker, you little rascal you. As someone who likes to hit two or three times more threads than me on the chat forum, I can only aspire to achieving your impressive record as a Big Hitter.

This will be now my fourth thread in 24 hours, compared to your nine threads.

*swoons at the thought of wrecker's Big Hitter awesomeness*

anagallis_arvensis: apologies, I should have written "not funded by the council" and not private sector.

What do you teach?

Some come on Toryboys -0 what are you going to do to get us out of this mess. Keynesian policies ( according to you ) are wrong, Its clear the austerity programme is wrong - what are you going to do?

Not one of you has had the balls to actualy put anything forward

Typical response from someone who offers nothing constructive yet will criticise those who endeavour to remedy the situation.

How ironic. Help me....me me me

Why is the austerity wrong? Income to expenditure has to balance. On a narrow view that we have entered a double dip? The remedy in whatever form will taste foul long after it's gone.

Don't be so modest wrecker, you little rascal you. As someone who likes to hit two or three times more threads than me on the chat forum, I can only aspire to achieving your impressive record as a Big Hitter.

This will be now my fourth thread in 24 hours, compared to your nine threads.

*swoons at the thought of wrecker's Big Hitter awesomeness*

it was sitting there not doing much

Apart from quadrupling in value in the last 10 years.

which would help the uk how?

and

The advance notice of the substantial sales drove the price of gold down by 10% by the time of the first auction on 6 July 1999.

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sale_of_UK_gold_reserves,_1999-2002 ]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sale_of_UK_gold_reserves,_1999-2002[/url]

kimbers - Member

come on the gold reserves sell off thing was vastly overinflated by the torry press and plenty of people love trotting it out, because they have been convinced its a heinous crime

when gb announced the sell off gold was at a high, (his mistake was announcing he was about to do it which led to a drop in prices as everyone waited for the gold to hit the markets- not very clever but it wasnt at alow when he sold it)
also even though it was a chunk of the reserves (a 3rd?) it still only amounts to a fraction (1% ? )of our overall debt
and ultimately it never cost the country anything, it was sitting there not doing much and still would be if he hadnt sold it, of course osborne could never sell off any more because its been made out to be such a dreadful thing

google "the brown bottom"

 

What do you teach?

Kids

ok slowmart what would you do with the gold sell it now?

slowmart

Why is the austerity wrong?

Because it makes the problem worse

Reduced tax recepits

Increased benefit bills

Reduced economic activity

= increasing debt,

Good work toryboys BTW - diverting this from a discussion of the failure of the tory economic policy to a discussion on selling some of the gold reserves.

By increasing the value of BoE reserves

anagallis_arvensis: apologies, I should have written "not funded by the council" and not private sector.

that still wouldnt fit the point you wete making.

Apart from quadrupling in value in the last 10 years.

Clearly, it was spectacularly bad timing, but needs to be put into persepctive.

1. Brown couldn't have predicted 9/11 and the war on terror, which caused people to invest in gold as a safe haven, thus inflating its value.

2. The net loss to the UK (taking into account returns on investments from the sale of that gold) is thought to be around £9 billion. That's less than 0.01% of our national debt, and about 7% of the annual budget deficit.

[i]Your ignorance and confidence levels are still well out of alignment. [/i]

Ha !

Everytime I see your user name, I see the word [i]Anus[/i]

😆

3. but 2x the loss in reserves resulting from Black Wednesday

So let's put both events in the "irrelevant" bin then???

The critics of gold selling all forget the extra monies brought in from bidding for 3G licenses.

THM:

I recall asking an official at the time whether it was true that we had spent most of the reserves. 'Most?' he replied, with the clear implication that we had lost the lot. In fact the Bank of England, on instructions from on high, sold $28 billion of reserves on Black Wednesday alone, making the loss in August and September nearly $40bn. We not only lost the lot, we borrowed a further $16bn.

Although the loss of all the reserves (and net borrowing) qualifies as Wildean carelessness, there was also the little matter of selling the reserves cheap and buying them back more expensively after sterling's decline.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2005/feb/13/economicpolicy.comment

?

Everytime I see your user name, I see the word Anus

thats because you cant see me, i'm here there and everywhere.

So I am still missing how Gordon Brown selling the gold reverses a decade ago caused the global recession. Actually could someone explain how the entire worldwide economic meltdown was his fault? As this is what's implied over and over again by Tory HQ

I would ask Cameron, but I don't have a spare 250K lying around.

As for gold increasing in price by fours times, I don't think its the only material to do this, as that's global inflation and supply and demand isn't it? Or it Gordon's fault that copper has quadrupled in price as well?

Good point grum. My comments came from BoE a well (but I was sloppy and didn't x-check). I must have made an error there. Good spot - you got me. 😉

[i]thats because you cant see me, i'm here there and everywhere. [/i]

Mostly, I find you're up your own ass.

Which makes your claim to be a certain hue of scarlet, quite amusing.
Possibly more a shade of stercore ?.

You may think everyone is ignorant, but you are colour blind.

😆

At least i keep my ramblings to things i know something about. You on the otherhand have talked absolute rubbish twice that i've noticed and i habe very little clue what most on this thread are talking about. I just tell it like i see it and you are just plain wrong.

[i]So I am still missing how Gordon Brown selling the gold reverses a decade ago caused the global recession. Actually could someone explain how the entire worldwide economic meltdown was his fault? As this is what's implied over and over again by Tory HQ[/i]

Its just a Troll thread, started by one of our oldest, sadest, Trolls.

As much as lefties want to defend Labours' record of the past decade.
As the old saying goes:

You can't polish a Turd.

So while the Cons try to anyway.

Lefties complain that all hasn't been put right in just 24 months or so.

Yes, of course, the lefties have earnt their title of [i]Looney[/i].

Never being satisfied with anything less than Labour being in No 10.
No money remaining in the kitty ( as admitted by one departing labour chappy in the treasury )
And everyone working for the public sector and reeling in nice pensions and salaries.

[i]and you are just plain wrong[/i]

Aww. I had hoped you'd have gone on for a little longer before capitulating.

This thread is just rubbish.

Even the sad 50 something, TJ, has now realised that he's got to get this stuff in now, before the Cons manage to turn things about.

cos then he will be flamed.
Oh yes, he will be flamed.
😉

Never being satisfied with anything less than Labour being in No 10.

i think just a bunch of effete torys out to enrich their chums not being there would do

Solo - nowt to do with defending Labours record - you will note its only the toryboys attacking labour on this thread to divert attention from the disaster that Is Gideon. You are doing this as well. Can't defend the tories - attack labour.

Its very simple - since the election the UK economy has got worse - the rest of the G7 have got better. Tory policies are not reducing the debt - they are increasing it. Its not working. Tax receipts down, benefit bill up, deficit up, debt up,inflation up. a recipe for what?

Even the sad 50 something, TJ, has now realised that he's got to get this stuff in now, before the Cons manage to turn things about.

Oh oh oh - how are they going to do that then? Please tell us

[i]i think just a bunch of effete torys out to enrich their chums not being there would do[/i]

What, as opposed to Tony, drenched in blood and making hand over fist to inflate his own personal wealth and make his mates [s]anyone with a cheque book[/s] [i]Lord[/i]

come on solo - please let us know how your beloved tories are going to turn this all around?

What a strange man you are, TJ. If you were to put half the effort you have expended here in to something worthwhile, you'd be fêted as some sort of saint. And yet you choose to wibble on about it on some obscure bike forum.

Odd. Very odd.

[i]Oh oh oh - how are they going to do that then? Please tell us [/i]

Thats right TJ, go for it now.
Fill yer boots.

Still, as you are, you hate change and would have just carried on regardless.

Go on.
Tell us how GB was on the radio and when asked about our mahoosive debts.
His reply was that we're not in as much debt as Japan !!!.

WoooHoo !, praise be.

He hadn't spent it all up just yet, and was planning to spend some more.

I liked the comment earlier about how little it costs us to borrow, compared to, Greece, I think it was.

Can anyone explian this ?, anything to do with the cuts, anything to do with reigning in the spending ?.
Perhaps the bond buyers don't charge us as much as we appear to be taking the pain ?.

Looney left, always were, always will be.

[img] [/img]

As a Labour sympathiser/economist stated this morning, most probably [i]in the long run[/i] by the current mix of monetary and fiscal policies (edit: and in the same way as any other party would) Given that his (Gavin Davies) approach is going to be very close to Ed Ball's, the give away is in the last two lines

Maybe I am being excessively stubborn, but I have not completely given up on the UK’s chosen policy mix just yet.

But anyone who thinks it will be a quick fix [b]whoever is in charge [/b]is deluded.

CFH - not a lot of effort really 🙂

I have had 3 hrs sleep, organised some house repairs, been to the shops and done a whole load of other stuff today since strting this.

its like shooting fish in a barrel simples 🙂

Solo / teamhurtmore - come on chaps -how are your beloved tories going to get us out of this mess?

Solo - nice diversionary attack on labour there - but lets hear how the torys are going to get us out of this mess.

I disagree, you [b]are[/b] wasting a lot of time and effort on this and you aren't shooting any fish. In fact, you're just wibbling along with your same dogmatic claptrap. Take a look at the sheer number of posts you've made on both this, and any of the numerous, equally dull religion threads. Time and effort. All utterly pointless. As is this post, I suppose. Oh, the irony, etc.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

CFH - its not a lot of time and effort. It really isn't.

TandemJeremy - Member
its like shooting fish in a barrel simples

So you make posts simply to "shoot down" anyone who replies for your own amusement, how so very sad.....

[i]But anyone who thinks it will be a quick fix whoever is in charge is deluded.[/i]

Perhaps.
But at least one side seeks to fix it.
As opposed to just continuing with the problem.

Furthermore.
TJ, your " Tory boy " burr, stuck so firmly in your ass.

Its pityful stuff really.

A different perspcetive would illlustrate that some of the social aspirations long associated with the left, are actually admirable and worthy.

The frustrating thing with the left is that they let us all down in their attempt to realize their social agenda, by being fiscally inept.

Aww. I had hoped you'd have gone on for a little longer before capitulating.

you'd have to say something that wasnt just massively wrong in order to start a proper discussion. Keep trying though monkeys and typewriters and all that.

[i]CFH - its not a lot of time and effort. It really isn't. [/i]

Public sector worker TJ ?.

[i]you'd have to say something that wasnt just massively wrong in order to start a proper discussion. Keep trying though monkeys and typewriters and all that[/i]

Now whos wrong ?.
😉

Your are class, very amusing.
Well done.

😆

The interesting variable will of course be £. Many countries have adopted a "hidden" devaluation policy (QE) including us (reflected in our weaker inflation record) while the poor old PIGS remain encumbered with an over-valued currency and uncompetitive wage structures. If the Euro collapses in a disorderly fashion, all gloves may well be off and the outlook becomes much less uncertain.

Otherwise, its pretty clear what will be done.

Solo - so please let us know how they are going to fix it

Simple question. No attack on me personally or Labour please - just let us know how the Tories are going to fix this mess?

TandemJeremy - Member
...its not a lot of time and effort.

post history may suggest otherwise 😆

teamhurtmore
Otherwise, its pretty clear what will be done.

Oh good - let us know will you?

[i]Oh oh oh - how are they going to do that then? Please tell us [/i]

Just re-read that.

I think you've just demonstrated to the world, the extent and the limit of your intelligence.

Oh dear.
😯

but lets hear how the torys are going to get us out of this mess.

They'll employ Jesus - he's the only bloke who can perform the sort of miracles that you expect.

The other sneaky thing they (governments) will do is maintain a long period of financial repression - ie interest rates below inflation/GDP, so screwing pensioners and savers even more.

So TJ - Getting us further (if that's possible) into debt would have been good? Really?

Face up to the facts - we've all been living off too much debt for far too long, we've had the good times, now for the bad. The recession is global, and coincided with Labour being in power, so does that make it Gord's fault? I don't see it as a big problem the double dip, more inevitable. The knock on effect of redundancies, higher living costs and less disposable income, it takes time for the effect of a recession to be felt fully, hence the 'double dip'.

As for Gideon - Live within your means is a good idea, not convinced they are doing things 100% right, but with public sector salaries through the roof, and pensions agreed over the years with unions not having the foresight to think of the future things were bound to **** up.

I personally would never vote for a party that p*ssed all the money up the wall with unsustainable spending, and then when they knew they were going to lose power spent every bit left and even left post it's to the effect - what kind of half witted attitude is that?

Gp's on £70 - £100k? Tube drivers on £50k, bloody hell even up here in Shropshire the average wage at the secondary school I attended is £42k for a 3 week month - is that really all sustainable when the average wage is much more around low twenties? Nope.

Being self employed I have managed to survive a 84% pay cut in the last 3 years, have no pension, and work on average 65hrs a week. Think I have any sympathy for anyone on more than £30k - nope - tax em to **** and back. Seems to me at the moment labour like to say tax the rich - ok then so tax anyone who is rich - £30k plus, but they won't hit all the civil servants will they?

Rant over

Now whos wrong ?.

i have no idea what your on about. If you have a point your trying to make its lost on me.

Keep trying though, everyone loves a trier.

Its only a very minor change. Headlines on r4 tonight....."economy is back to where it was in autumn 2010". well whoopee doo, thats hardly news. OK minus 0.2 is recession plus 0.1 is growth, but they are both within a rizla paper of knack all.

The economy needs to create jobs that bring in money from outside the UK thats the only way we will grow out of this mess.

It will be 2014 before the shoots of recovery start to look good for the coalition. Gordo and Balls took us into this mess with a zeal not seenin most other countries, its bound to be unpopular getting the country back onits feet.

[i]Simple question. No attack on me personally or Labour please - just let us know how the Tories are going to fix this mess?[/i]

As above, you are incapable of understanding.

Putting it in simple terms, you still won't see it or agree.
Mentally, you've hit the buffers and for you there is no overdraft.

Spending will be brought back to a manageble level.
People who had it easy in the public sector will have to either shape up or ship out and....... dare I post it......
Work in the private sector !.
And lots more.

So TJ, are you a public sector worker ?.

Spending will be brought back to a manageble level.

So not platitudes please saying " this will happen

HOW?

I am quite capable of understanding if you would deign to tell me what the policies will be that will do it.

at the secondary school I attended is £42k

Thats quite high, national average is around 34 i believe.

Average wage is much higher than 20k though.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

See what I did there?

Work in the private sector !.

oh thats right the private sector is expanding to hoover up all the wasteful public sector workers whove been made redundant

hows that going again?

you also forgot tax brakes for the very richest , letting vodafone off their taxes, selling off the nhs, privatising education, police, etc oh and pimping out cameron at 250k a time to loan sharks, cab drivers, oil companies,, foreign hedge funds, rupert murdoch............ oh yeah inventing fuel crisis thats a good un

TandemJeremy - Member
Solo / teamhurtmore - come on chaps -how are your beloved tories going to get us out of this mess?

Solo - nice diversionary attack on labour there - but lets hear how the torys are going to get us out of this mess.

Allow me..

They will get us out of the mess the same way they always do.

1)Drive down wage costs with mass unemployment especially in the public sector which is over paid and largely over staffed.

2)Let Inflation further devalue wages and reduce the debt.

3)Eventually enable the private sector to recover thanks to an increased pool of more hungry workers working for minimum wage.

4)Inflation will enable property values to recover in time, then the whole cycle will start again.

5) With property moving, Industry staggering to its feet and exports moving thanks to the low devalued and infation racked £, consumers will start spending on the next bubble.

Have I missed anything?

Why repeat the question? They will do much the same as they are doing now playing off the monetary/fiscal (sub optimally), FX/inflation (poss better) and IR vs inflation balances (well, but at a cost to those who I have just described). And Balls would probably do the same. And it will take a long time to work.

Wild card - social unrest and Europe.

Why social unrest? Because current spending plans and targets to balance budget will require average tax rates of 40% and real tax rates closer to 60% (including Vat etc) and people may find that hard to swallow on top of austerity.

[i]i have no idea what your on about.[/i]

Then may I perhaps suggest some water wings ?.

Saves you coming across as an aloof and superior intellect...
Oh, wait....
😉

CaptainFlashheart - Member

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

See what I did there?

I ain't gonna get any answers from solo or THM or any other of the tory apologists am i - just diversionary attacks 🙂

I ain't gonna get any answers

Then stop typing your inane drivel and repeated questions and shut down your computer.

Please.