[Closed] Dope as a pain killer.

teh remaining two are neuropathic [b]pain [/b]where I have said it is known [b]it has an effect[/b]

Hang on a second. You said earlier that analgesic simply means pain relief. So how does having an effect on pain make it NOT an analgesic? I am confused.

self restraint used.. public forum and all that.

molgrips - Member

teh remaining two are neuropathic pain where I have said it is known it has an effect

Hang on a second. You said earlier that analgesic simply means pain relief. So how does having an effect on pain make it NOT an analgesic? I am confused.

An analgesic stops the body feeling pain. Some drugs have an effect on neuropathic pain which is an abnormal response in the nervous system by reducing this abnormal response. Cannabis appears to do this.

so if you have a broken bone a painkiller will reduce the pain but a drug such as cannabis will not. If you have neuropathic pain then cannabis may reduce it. Cannabis may also reduce pain from spasm and may potenitate some analgesics. Also a feeling of well being engendered by cannabis may make you care less about the pain.

Does that help?

analgesics act on all pain response - cannabis may act on some specific abnormal types of pain response

because it works for a specfifc kind of pain [neuropathic] rather than general pain
It is not a general pain killer though it may alieviate the symptoms of certain somatosensory system related pain

I am assuming /deducing here tbh
EDIT:his post beat me by 39 seconds

Look It may be good for certain things and it should be researched but to argue that someoen should be getting an ill relative stoned for pain relief is perhaps a bit far.
I may "medicate" someone I knew very well if they asked but I would not "prescribe" it to anyone tbh

If you have neuropathic pain then cannabis may reduce it

What type of pain does the OP's mum have then?

In the first ever controlled trial of a CBM [cannabis based medicine] in RA [rheumatoid arthritis], [b]a significant analgesic effect was observed[/b] and disease activity was significantly suppressed following Sativex treatment. Whilst the differences are small and variable across the population, they represent benefits of clinical relevance and show the need for more detailed investigation in this indication.

[url] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=16282192 [/url]

Small sample though.

What type of pain does the OP's mum have then?

Neuropathic or myofacial, either way it will help.

It will also lift mood, help her sleep, reduce muscle spasms, and relax muscles, all very common issues in FM.

Like I said its helped me, getting a bit bored of saying it now.

Love this poem.
It's very appropriate here.

NEVER ARGUE WITH A FOOL

It is best not to argue,
But if you do at all,
Never do so with a fool.
A fool can defeat all.

He does not care for the facts.
He does not know debate.
He’s a stranger to reason.
Logic he can negate.

In the end the fool will win,
His logic is so strong!
Decides what he does not like
And then it must be wrong!

It’s better to keep quiet
When challenged by a fool.
Else, to prove his own wisdom,
He will make you a tool.

It is hence my policy
To not respond to those
Who ask questions not to learn
But to be bellicose.

How about I make a suggestion? the substance doesn't do any harm in small doses and is easy enough to come by, perhaps it would be best too simply try and see if it works 😉

Then the individual who might gain from it's use can decide based on actual experience?

You mean like I did Kaesae, what a crazy idea! 😉

OP if it works, don't expect anyone to believe you.

I have followed this thread as I am a smoker (now ocassional). I am mid 40's, professional and have a normal family life despite smoking for many years (a lot when I was younger)
I think there has been some misunderstanding on this thread mainly down to the word "analgesic"

TJ probably summed it up best when he said "so if you have a broken bone a painkiller will reduce the pain but a drug such as cannabis will not. If you have neuropathic pain then cannabis may reduce it. Cannabis may also reduce pain from spasm and may potenitate some analgesics. Also a feeling of well being engendered by cannabis may make you care less about the pain"

I have no doubt cannabis can cause mental health issues with some people. I have friends who stopped as it made them paranoid. Stopping smoking helped them so it does affect SOME people negatively. A good friend is a mental health nurse and many "patients" have used cannabis with negative effects (also alcohol and various prescription drugs are common sources of abuse)
However back to the OP. I hasten to add I have no medical experience so would get further advice before committing to anything however if his mother is suffering it MAYBE worth letting her try a very small amount to see if it helps, ideally sourced from someone you know and trust and before doing so I would research more from people with both views and away from a cycling forum known for people with strong opinions. 🙂
When my father had a bad back I gave him sone and it helped him.
Same as many things in this owrld, OK for some, not others.

flow - Member

It will also lift mood,

It may not. My personal experience is that it can raise or lower mood. I think you're probably guilty of assuming your own experience is universal tbh. People are complicated and react to changed states in complicated ways.

Whenever I have a fairly big crash I find a small amount helps me with the pain (although in fairness I'm not sure if it really does reduce pain, but I certainly care less about it, so the end result is the same) and it helps me get to sleep too.

I've tried various over the counter pills and nothing seems to hit the spot in quite the same way. I've not tried the stronger prescription pills as I see it as a waste of time / NHS resources - when I need it I need it (and its right here), I don't want to be waiting around at the doctors.

I don't use it during the day though - or indeed at all at any other time - so hobble around until the next evening or three until the pain goes away naturally.

Obviously it won't work for everyone, but doing it now and again it works for me with no noticeable side-effects. I see no harm in it nor the need to justify it further.

NW - you and Nacho are right, it dos effect everyone differently, it certainly isn't for everyone. Its worth a try though!

I love the ol' ganj...

have nothing but contempt for modern so called medicine, that focuses so highly on treatment that involves the prescribing of drugs but not on the healing of body or mind.

As long as there are individuals who stand to make a fortune from the sale of such drugs and as long as the drugs are time and time again proven to be harmful when so called clinical studies have shown they are safe, that contempt will remain.

The issue and subject of this thread is the use of cannabis or grass etc as a usefull form of pain management, which it has been proven to be in the case of people suffering from pain.

If those suffering from pain are varifying that it is effective, perhaps that should carry more weight than a bunch of studies carried out by researchers.

No offence gentlemen but this blind adherence to facts and figures that are funded and produced using money that is contributed by third parties is questionable, just as the motives, procedures and findings are also questionable.

This thread has a topic that does not involve products manufactured by multi billion pounds global companies, is there any chance you can set aside your inflexible perspectives and simply stick to the topic

Generally doctors all over the world administer drugs from various manufacturers, funnily enough 99 percent of them have no connection to the manufacturers of the drugs they prescribe yet these doctors own studies tend to agree with the stated rates of a drugs side effects. You'd think if 100,000 of thousands of doctors were prescribing various drugs then some of them would eventually find a flaw in big bad pharma's drug safety statement? Wouldn't you. But noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.....hippies around the world continue to this day to ascribe to pre enlightenment thinking and subscribe themselves to idiocy such as homeopathy and chiropractors.

You are correct bwaarp, thats why they are licencing cannabinoids for medical use.

One word, Sativex. Look it up and educate yourself about the medical world a little more. There is a time delay between people realizing a drug is useful and it coming to market. About 10-15 years, you will see more cannabis based drugs coming onto the market soon.

I have already read about it in depth, I have mentioned/linked to it on this thread many times.

Then what's your problem. If the drug is slowly being approved for various disorders and being legalized in a controlled fashion then I fail to see the ****ing point of this thread and the idiocy found within. It's smoking the damn stuff which can vary in quality and dosage that I think some believe is the problem here.

Also +1 TJ on CFS.

A thread full of hippies and witch doctors.

I think you'll that the term [i]shaman[/i] is considered to be more acceptable these days.

Have I gotten myself banned again, is witch doctor racist or something? Anyway I'm probably being a bit harsh on hippies: I've met three doctors who though you had to black out to have epilepsy; I've met a neurologist who thought someone having a basilar migraine was having a panic attack; and another neurologist who rushed into a diagnosis of epilepsy in a friend who was blacking out daily who failed to notice as I had her heart was running at about 200 bpm whenever she blacked out.

Lot's of morons in the world.

Then what's your problem.

I'm not the one with a problem mate, if you read through the thread you will see I am giving advice based on personal experience and TJ is trying to tell me I am wrong in one way or another. I don't think he even knows what he is arguing about.

Ernie your knowledge of PC terms is the envy of guardianistas everywhere

Advice based entirely on personal experience is bollocks. I have no idea whether cannabis in analgesic or just for neuropathic pain/adjunctive pain relief. It's not really my area but it seems from the skimming of my journal database the juries still out so giving advice is a bad idea, especially if you aren't a doctor. Are you qualified to give medical advice on psychoactive drugs? If I did when I'm registered as a Biomed, I'd be murdered.

Junkyard, Ernie should have a wonder over to ARRSE. He'd be horrified.

I hang around a lot in polite company JY, so I know stuff like that.

You should hang around with fun people. You know, Rob Warner types. That'd lighten you up a bit.

Advice based on personal experience is bollocks

That is whats wrong with modern medicine. The patients symptoms or personal experience mean nothing if tests and studies say otherwise.

Now that is bollocks.

Yeah homeopathy is amazing. Patients and homeopathists experience says it's great, should we listen to them? Noooo

Actually modern medicine even up until recently (eg Physiotherapists) has had to be clawed away from "experience" like a demented cat stuck in a wall because doctors time and time again made major screw ups. Evidence based medicine when tempered with a doctors experience has shown vastly improved medical outcomes.

You should hang around with fun people.

Not the sort of people you knock around with mate, you're well rude.

Example : [i]"I fail to see the **** point of this thread and the idiocy found within"[/i]

😐

Doctors who go against the grain and think for themselves, who have helped hundreds of people when they where failed by the system get their right to practice taken away by the GMC. Now thats bollocks.

I like being direct.

*Dons troll hat* @ Flow: What like Dr Andrew Wakefield? 😀

No like Dr Myhill

yes subjective reports are the most powerful method of finding truth
know to man.
i dont know why we waste time with actual research and blind trials it snot lie the placebo effect is real or subjective reports are know to be unreliable. if somone says it helps then obviously it rally does help. we dont need to know if it really does help or not just whether they think it does.

FOllow the links I posted earlier re Cochrane collaboration and involving patients.
No one is sayin that patients views should be ignored but to claim that what they think is somehow true and fact is very inaccurate and wont really help us know anything [placebo effect and self reports being unreliable[

Homeopathy has many supporters who will tell you it works, as will faith healing and any other "quackery" you care to think of.

The patients symptoms or personal experience mean nothing if tests and studies say otherwise.

Now that is [s]bollocks[/s]science.

Jeez, are Cheech and Chong still droning on about rubbish? Reminds me of the days I used to sit around getting ston... Oh.

Flow, shut up eh?

You might well have loads of experience getting wrecked, but you have no experience of dealing with people in pain, who need that pain to go away like right now, not when you've managed to find the skins.

No you shut up crikey 😆

Well, how much experience do you have of dealing with people in pain? That's real pain, not 'Oh maan, we've got no pizza left' pain...

I'm loathe to descend to the level of insults, but you are a fool.

Actually Dr Myhill is/was full of shit. I spent a lot of time doing a large review paper a long time ago on birth defects in Iraq and the possible causes behind them. I ran into her stuff attempting to find a link between them and Gulf War syndrome. Her opinion of vaccinations was laughable.

Linky http://jdc325.wordpress.com/2010/04/18/doctors-and-vaccination/

[img] [/img]

That is whats wrong with modern medicine. The patients symptoms or personal experience mean nothing if tests and studies say otherwise.

Now that is bollocks.

NHS chronic pain services make extensive use of psychological therapies to help patients manage pain. This sort of work requires a deep understanding of a patients symptoms and experience, working closely with other medical disciplines. Modern medicine is constantly investigating new approaches to treatment and testing these objectively to discover which are most effective. Going back to the OP's original question, it is worth investigating whether any of these non-drug based treatments are available for your mother. They may not be appropriate for her specific condition, but there's no harm in asking.

Dr Myhill?

😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

Flow, you've got a new film out haven't you? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1204342/

Well, how much experience do you have of dealing with people in pain? That's real pain, not 'Oh maan, we've got no pizza left' pain...

Well the OP's mother has FM, I have CFS which is similar. I ache and have trouble sleeping and smoke weed which helps it.

Surely the OP wanted to hear from people like me and not a bunch of anti drug, middle class lard asses who have no experience of either.

TJ did say he suffered from CFS too though for most of his adult life. Maybe thats why I am almost better after just a year, I wasn't scared to think outside the box. The drugs I got from my doctor caused awful side effects and if anything made me worse.

Maybe you recovered differently because of different causes? CFS is most likely a term for a range of conditions resulting from psychological causes to Lyme's disease.

Yes, let's slam medical science because you didn't get on with a few drugs. Maybe you have a genetic disposition and metabolize certain drugs in a different way to the majority of the population and were therefore more likely to get severe sides. That's where again, medical science and not quackery can fill in by personalizing drugs for the individual user through genetic testing.

I'm sure your essential silliness has been pointed out previously, but if you have Chronic Fatigue, getting stoned regularly is probably not a great idea given that one of the features of long term use of said drug is a certain amount of lethargy.

Whatever, you seem to be too dim to reason with.

Anti drug? I handle more drugs in a day than you could imagine, and I'm not wrecked so I can observe their effects.

Middle Class? maybe, but then you're not a working class hero are you?

Lard ass? Try harder munchie boy.

Did you even try psychotherapy flow? There is a rule Flow, EVERY drug no matter whether it is NATURAL or synthesized has side effects. You alter one molecular pathway in the body and there is always...and I do mean always unintended consequences.

I'm sure your essential silliness has been pointed out previously, but if you have Chronic Fatigue, getting stoned regularly is probably not a great idea given that one of the features of long term use of said drug is a certain amount of lethargy.

Clearly if it made me more fatigued I wouldn't smoke it, I said it helps.

Whatever, you seem to be too dim to reason with.

Obviously. The content of your posts shows you are way more intelligent than me 😆

Actually it really does, this isn't even a challenge. Every post of yours is getting shot down in flames.

from people like me and not .......... middle class lard asses

TopTip : If you are going to come out with stuff like that, then it's probably best not to add [i]"I wasn't scared to think outside the box"[/i]

[i]The content of your posts shows you are way more intelligent than me [/i]

I've got cheese in my fridge more intelligent than you, so that's hardly a compliment.

Look at crikey throwing out the insults. Surely its past your bed time, you've got school in the morning.

I wasn't scared to think outside the box

You see the problem with this flow is that people who do think outside the box, change the world and are considered geniuses.....tread a very fine line between rebelliousness and deference to their teachers. Which you do not. If you are to rebellious, you fail to ever get a proper grasp of a subject. If you can't think outside the box at all then you will never make outstanding progress in a field.

My favourite topic within my field is genetics, in particular chromosomal instability. I've studied it closely for about four years now which is not much at all. You've read a few websites on the internet and now claim that medical science is bollocks. How's that for having an "open" mind.

Nah mate, I've been at work all day, giving people drugs, that work, that aren't bought from Bob on the corner, that I know the strength of, that have been properly researched.

I'm insulting you because I enjoy shooting fish in barrels.

I'm insulting you because I enjoy shooting fish in barrels.

No you are [i]trying[/i] to insult me because you are a bell end.

LOL, that's your most intelligent contribution to this thread so far. Well done, you probably need a lie down and a schmoke?

Face it you lost and he's insulting you because you don't know how infuriating it is dealing with sick people all day and then reading the ramblings of fools who don't know any better. Do you know how annoying it is at school to be laughed at by stoners for working hard? Think of this as payback.

[img] [/img]

STFU, watch [url=

and learn something....for once.

And I agree with some of what is said about cannabis. Therefore I'll wait till it's put through the proper trials and released in a controlled manner if I ever get MS etc. What I won't do is give someone medical advice on taking the stuff, especially in an uncontrolled environment.

Yes....

Because I'm going to spend 50 minutes watching some cannabis related documentary at half past midnight in the hope that it will illuminate me about a recreational drug after I've spent 25 years working in critical care.

When you end up in real pain, I suspect you will not be asking for a joint.

Watch it, when you come back to this thread you will have a totally different opinion.

Crikey on another topic. Just off the cuff....just started doing clinical case studies at uni....Bilirubin (60 umol/l), Alkaline Transaminase (200 IU/L), GGT (800 IU/L), ALP (350 IU/L) <<< (this is only just elevated, in a biliary tract obstruction this would be massively elevated wouldn't it?). Would you say that's probably Alcoholic Liver Disease if the patients history points to that, without any other underlying diseases? I've never studied this before on my Biomedical degree. I'm trying to get my head around the markers of hepatocellular vs cholestatic disease.

No, I won't.

Before I was a nurse I smoked lots and lots and lots of cannabis. Been there, got that Fabulous Furry Freak Bros. T-shirt. Looked at all the counter culture stuff, lived it, smoked it, ate it. Used it for recreation, used it to self medicate, used it to get through the day.

It really isn't all that, and when you eventually realise this, you will be better for it.

ALD is not a strong point of mine, and I suspect that the markers you are using will have fairly well defined limits above which the suspicion will be more or less confirmed. My/our take on any substance abuse related issues tends to be that ultimately it is more useful to consider how or if it is fixable rather than how it was caused. We rarely bother with any kind of toxicology screen unless it is pertinent to the actual treatment; this was best described by a crusty old consultant who said 'It's like asking what colour of car knocked you down'. Biomedical studies will be more specific, but from a practical point of view we treat what goes wrong rather than what we find or suspect.

Yeah, I believe it's to check whether the chap brought in who has a history of intoxication is showing early signs of liver disease (enlargement). So that a biopsy isn't performed without need, something like that anyhow. The ranges are actually quite hard to find, we haven't been given them and we can only use primary sources to back up our statements. Can't even run to the NHS guidelines! The tossers! Thanks anyway!

Well Crikey, your narrow mindedness is restricting your knowledge.

The more you know, the more you realize how little you know, so if you think you know everything then you know nothing.

Typical NHS.

Edit: That video confirms everything I said making you lot look rather stupid.

Bye for now.

Actually we're not damning medical science and proclaiming we know better. We don't pretend to know everything about medicine like you do. Besides don't blame the NHS the stuff isn't legal, remember the whole shit throwing contest over what the NHS employed drug advisers to Whitehall said. The NHS just has to tow government policy.... most of the time.

Keep sticking it to tha' man yeah!

Or perhaps crikey with his many years of knowledge and experience painstaking gained actually understands the issues rather better than you do? Just a thought?

Or are you still refusing to hear anything you don't want to?

TandemJeremy - Member
Or perhaps crikey with his many years of knowledge and experience painstaking gained actually understands the issues rather better than you do? Just a thought?

Some of the posters on this thread who work in the medical field are positioning themselves as the font of all knowledge...which is of course very silly. I'm not making a case for cannabis as a medicine one way or another, but I think there is a lot that we don't yet know about the plant, such as, which of the [i]many[/i] cannabinoids (beyond THC, CBD, CBN etc.) and in what combinations, effect the body/mind and in what way.

[url= https://www.icmag.com/viewarticle.php?articleid=1422 ]some articles[/url]

Or perhaps crikey with his many years of knowledge and experience painstaking gained actually understands the issues rather better than you do? Just a thought?

Clearly not, if you [b]watch the video[/b] it proves you all wrong, infact it makes you look stupid.

I especially like the parts about pain, how cannabis is an analgesic, how it is effectively used to treat depression, anxiety, PTSD, and insomnia.

These aren't small studies either, over 30 years of research.

"Medical professionals" owned in at their own game!

Flow 1 - Know it all's 0

GAME OVER

😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

TJ did say he suffered from CFS too though for most of his adult life.

I don't think I have ever made so many people look so stupid at once before, this is quality.

Just in case you missed the link

TBH the gloating from both sides is really quite sad, especially when it's backed-up with comments on getting payback for previously received ridicule and the like.

Have a word, chaps...

You're right Teasel, but when you have so many deluded idiots thinking they are correct because they are "medical professionals" they need to be put straight. ****ing amateurs.

Of course a piece on youtube is definitive. 🙄

Most of the medical professionals accept cannabis could have medical uses indeed some are generally accepted. However it has serious and common side effects.

However flow is talking obvious nonsense and is offering bad advice from a position of ignorance.

There's only one way to settle this....(no not Harry Hill's now infamous 'FIGHT'....that's been played out far too much on this forum)....

We arrange a forum rideout, Flow volunteers to fall off in an amusing way and breaks a limb, when we've all finished laughing he gets to medicate the pain....we'll have a joint on standby and we'll also have some lovely opiates....obviously Flow gets to have the joint first, if it stops his pain then we'll all have had our eyes opened and we'll throw the other meds in a bush or something....if however he's still in pain he can have the prescription meds, maybe.

We can film it and somebody could write it up as a nice piece for the next issue of Singletrack....titled: What pain meds to carry in your rucksack when bivvy bagging?

Of course a piece on youtube is definitive

Flow aagin no one is really debating whether it does or it does not work [clearly it has effects I have inhaled] what we are saying is it needs proper research. Proper research is not a stoner googling on Youtube to post up what other stoners have said.

This thread has put me off two things.

1. Smoking Dope
2. Being a Medical Professional.

You are all acting like total twunts.

Quite right proper research carried out by the very industry that stands too lose out if it is proven too work.

Groovy man, pure genius!

So basically anyone thinking of using cannabis to get relief from pain or suffering, should wait until there is proper research done, or at the very least give the pharmaceutical industry a chance to make a product that they can sell to us, for eh money!

Oh dear god what part of the medical industry don't you get, big pharma companies are already making money off cannabis based drugs. They don't lose out to "natural" drug's as lot's of "natural" drugs go onto become drugs that they put onto the market. They are much better at delivering drugs that are pure, of correct dosage and with lessened sides when compared to garden variety pot dealers.

It's much harder to control consistency with plants, with the cannabis based drug solutions you can control the dosage therefore the pharmacokinetics and reduce the dosage to a therapeutic window that causes the least amount of sides.

God it's like smashing your head against a brick wall.

Quite right proper research carried out by the very industry that stands too lose out if it is proven too work.

Groovy man, pure genius!

how are the pharma companies going to lose out..?

Of course a piece on youtube is definitive

If you watched it you would see that its a bit more than just a youtube video.

Proper research is not a stoner googling on Youtube to post up what other stoners have said.

Obviously, but the research has already been done, I'm just pointing you lost sheep in the right direction.

It's much harder to control consistency with plants

BS.

If they are cloned from the mother plant and grown the same way in a laboratory setting, ie with identical light, temp, humidity, soil ph, nutrients etc, they will turn out identical.

You're right, it is like smashing your head against a brick wall, all you "medical professionals" haven't got a clue.

So who actually watched the video and who is too narrow minded to bother?