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Looking out my class window while teaching titrations to S4 pupils. Watched an older gent fall down. 5 minutes later we're performing CPR with ambulance call handler counting to compression timing. She was very good. Ambulance arrived promptly but he was very blue and agonal breaths.
I then had to chat with his friends and explain that they'd done their absolute best and maybe a seat and sweet tea would be an idea.
All in all an exciting morning.Last I heard he'd been in resus for 2 1/2 hours.
My N5s also now understand concordant titre results.
Fingers crossed for a good outcome.
Well done.
Well done, onehundredthidiot. You did what society hopes/expects of you.
However I have mixed feelings on this. If I'm the older gent who falls down I hope you're not looking out of the window. Saving people is all very well but for what quality of life after? A family member died recently, a year and a half after their time was up. The 18 months extra A&E gave them was spent between homes, home carers and hospital beds, unable to walk or do anything much for themselves and with memory issues. A huge stress for another family member. Thankfully second time around the paperwork was in place to call a halt to the medics and let the poor person go.
The family experience reconciled me with the failure to "save" a cyclist I saw roll off the road and fall off his bike. I hadn't really come to terms with the outcome despite the other person present and working with me on the guy being a nurse. If we'd saved that guy what would his life have become? As it was he died riding his bike which given the kit was soemthing he was passionate about - what better way to go?
Outstanding, well done. - good luck to the older gent.
If I’m the older gent who falls down I hope you’re not looking out of the window. Saving people is all very well but for what quality of life after?
WT actual F?
If we’d saved that guy what would his life have become?
You don't know - that's the reason to save him. IMO if you know the quality of life afterwards is going to be terrible that's when you get into the morality questions - if you see someone injured who might well make a full recovery then who are you to deny that?
However I have mixed feelings on this.
I don't. You did a great deed, well done.
We'll see how it turns out. I'm just glad it happened where it did. He'd ridden in on an ebike about 10miles on country roads. If it'd happened earlier he might have been lost for days or been across the carriageway on a blind bend.
However I have mixed feelings on this.
There’s some utter tripe posted on here now and again by certain people but this takes the biscuit.
You need to give your head a wobble.
@onehundredthidiot you and your pupils did a great thing. We need more people who can and are willing to get on with CPR in situations like this.
WT actual F?
It's not hard to understand. If I have a massive stroke I want to die and I don't want someone to save me.
onehundredthidot did well, everyone on the thread agrees, including me. I wonder what the victim's view will be if he survives. If they then have a high quality of life they'll probably be very thankful, a poor quality of life less so, having nappies changed four times a day, pain, being put in a frame to be moved, halucinating, memory AWOL - even less so.
Oh, the words make sense - I'm just a bit gobsmacked that, within minutes of posting about what must have been a hugely traumatising experience of seeing someone keel over and then miraculously keeping them sufficiently ticking over for the emergency services to have a genuine shot at keeping them alive, I'm just gobsmacked that anyone's first public thought could be "you might have made the wrong decision there".
A very good friend of mine died of a heart attack whilst riding his bike alone. I’d like to think if someone had seen him collapse they’d have given him the chance.
That is not what I said, could you remove the quotes please.
No chance.
Great job! mince pie earned. The importance of CPR, must do a refresher as I've forgotten a bit. Here's to a swift recovery!
@Edukator can only assume you walk around with a DNR wrist tag, very odd view & pretty mindless that you can simply apply judgement like that. No circumstances are the same.
"Don't stop until you stop" is the thread little. The nurse I was with stopped. She was talking about the time we'd taken at each stage and his chances of brain damage/survival and the time for defibrilation had gone. Sure you hear about the young surfer who is saved after someone does CPR while another runs a couple of km and back for a defibrilateur and shocks after 20mins but most outcomes aren't good. Google it, I did and realised how low our chaces were.
https://heart.bmj.com/content/109/18/1344
@wwpaddler I'm head of department and I've asked all my teachers to teach until the end of today. Some did fun skills based experiments, some did normal lessons. Bah and indeed....humbug.
@Edukator a stranger is someone's loved one. Would you do nothing if it were someone you cared about even if it was a 50:50 on full recovery or limited life?
Have a lovely festive period everyone, it's time for a break.
Well done. It's very easy to think "oh, well someone else will do something."
What's S4 and N5?
That is not what I said
That's as may be, but it's what it sounded like you were implying.
I'd do something, onehundredthidiot. I did in fact. I have been talking about my own attitude to myself. Anyhow I don't have the choice, French law says non assistance à pesonne en danger is illegal. I have a legal obligation to act. However if I keel over with a stroke I'd rather there wasn't anyone around to save me. Suicide is legal here BTW.
That’s as may be, but it’s what it sounded like you were implying.
Just read what I actually type. I'm not implying anything. My posts are crystal clear, just read them for what they are and avoid joining the putting words in people's mouths types that use the tactic to be obnoxious..
Suicide is not a crime in the UK either. But that's irrelevant because this wasn't a case of attempted suicide.
I don't see the point of speculating the possible outcomes of the person surviving when they are in a life threatening situation, saving their lives is all that counts, not speculation.
They might have been in an unhappy marriage ffs, does that come into the equation when deciding whether to help someone close to death?
My posts are crystal clear
Yes you said that you have, quote, "mixed feelings".
If it isn't mixed feelings about whether the OP did the right thing what have you actually got mixed feelings about?
Well, even by our usual low standards we've managed to completely ruin the OPs post.
Well done OP. Take time for yourself after this, can't have been nice to deal with.
The OP worked hard on a near the knuckle problem that many would probably fluff, and I hope there’s a good outcome.
On the other issue, I think he’s talking about his own resuscitation really, and whether one agrees with @Edukator or not, it’s worth recognising many do.
Both my parents signed DNR statements and had copies sent to me, my sister and my brother.
That bloody "ignore" function can't come soon enough.
OP, if it was me that keeled over, I hope I'd have someone like you on the scene. You did good.
I must commend your dedication to teaching. Would appear to be unusual to be teaching the curriculum on the next to last day of term. Everyone else seems to be putting films on.
What if the curriculum is just watching films, do you break out the integral calculus textbooks for a treat for the last couple of days?
well done OP.
to save a life is, to me, one of the greatest things someone could do.
If we’d saved that guy what would his life have become?
You don’t know, neither does anyone else, and it’s nobody’s business to make any decisions other than the medical specialists gifted with the skills and knowledge to make the attempt.
The staff at Southmead Hospital fought hard to try to save my partner’s life, after she suffered what turned out to be a stroke, and turned her life support off two days later. She suffered from depression, and frequently had suicidal thoughts, so I guess she achieved what she desired, but I’ll be damned if I’d ever, for one second, consider that no attempt should have been made to save her life, and I will go to my grave knowing the right thing was done by her.
@onehundrethidiot good drills mate.
As to the musing:
Well done Onehundredthegoodguy.
I am curious if your school has a defrib?
There is no debate here (aswell as it absolutely not being the place for one). You don't ask the question you can't answer you give that person the chance to get proper help from people who have the knowledge.
You just have to try and ignore the bellénde, he thinks he's clever and thought provoking whilst making every effort to prove he's not.
Amazing role reversal in this thread as we've found out that onehundredthitiot is actually an educator, and Edukator is definitely a ****ing idiot.
I'm not sure anyone learned tgat in this thread alone.
@wwpaddler I’m head of department and I’ve asked all my teachers to teach until the end of today. Some did fun skills based experiments, some did normal lessons. Bah and indeed….humbug.
Meanwhile the English department were on mass showing Home Alone and saying they were going to analyse the story....why is it always the science department left teaching.
Physics is fun, now shut up sit down and get your calculator out!
Thoroughly well done op.
I'm just off to work where I'll see a colleague that had a cardiac arrest in the car park after doing couch to 5k. People like you stepped in and he survived (despite the ambulance taking ages). He had heart surgery, got fit and has since gone on to complete an Ironman.
People can survive and go on to have normal lives. If nobody starts CPR they don't survive.
Any other debate should be another time in a separate thread.
Well done to the OP.its what we would all hope we would do in those circumstances.
To be fair to Edukator he did immediately congratulate the OP… then as ever he made it about himself and gave us his opinions..
The issue in these circumstances is that you don’t have time to think. You just act and hope for the best. Once again.. Well done to the OP..
I actually agree with some of what Edukator wrote having seen personally some of the issues he raised up close but it wasn’t the time or place to post it.
As someone that frequently deals with the aftermath of out of hospital cardiac arrest (OOHCA) I find Edukator’s views quite alarming. There’s definitely a place for resus discussions and as a society we should be prepared to discuss it, but FFS in this scenario there’s no doubt.
If a man is out for a stroll they almost certainly have some physiological reserve. Yes, the stats for survival (including with good neurological recovery) are low, but they’re not zero. Frail people who never go outside are a different matter, but that’s not what’s being discussed here. A small minority of otherwise healthy people won’t want resuscitation but you can leave that up to the hospital staff who can access records and speak to family. Without medical training and a bit of information you simply can’t make that decision.
For what it’s worth, I applaud your work Mr Idiot. I’m sorry that the psychological trauma of having to do it was compounded by the tone deaf discussions here.
@onehundrethidiot Well done. A mate of mine did something similar a couple of years back for one of my neighbours. She made a recovery and is up and about like before. Good job that Pete stepped in and did his bit rather than ponder.
As for some of the other comments... just confirms my suspicions.
Well done!
@Superficial A small minority of otherwise healthy people won’t want resuscitation but you can leave that up to the hospital staff who can access records and speak to family. Without medical training and a bit of information you simply can’t make that decision.
This.
The vast majority of people want to be saved. You jump in and give people all the care you can. Paramedics and hospital staff can verify if someone has DNACPR record. But the odds of coming across someone with that wandering around are very low.
Absolutely well done Onehundrethidiot you did well and certainly the right thing. Hopefully you’ve given someone another chance or even a chance for the family to say goodbye. The sooner CPR is started the more likely of survival and the less likely they’ll be damage.
Weird response from Edukator leave the decision to stop to the professionals unless you have DNR tattooed on your forehead.
he was highlighting the fact that for some the outcome is not always great.
And why the need to point that out? Was there anyone who suggested that the outcome in these situations is always great?
The 100th idiot shared with us how he dealt with a close to death crisis in which quick reactions were of utmost importance, he doesn’t even know if the poor guy survived.
Why post something reminding everyone that if the person does indeed survive they might have a miserable existence?
StuEFree Member
I don’t think for a minute that Edukator was suggesting that the guy shouldn’t have been helped,
indeed. Tin eared obv, given the OP’s recent experience, which I’ve not had mercifully but would find traumatic and remember lifelong , but I like to see different takes and not all drowned in dreary “rule 1” groupthink.
Also, it lead me to read the BMJ Heart editorial/commentary piece. I’d always been cynical about defibrillators, on account of just being really cynical, until I actually saw the evidence that they really do very significantly save lives and quality of life. But the editorial highlights that amateurs using them have a higher chance of success (defined as the person being discharged from hospital) than professionals.
This clearly isn’t because they’re better at it, it’s because they’re on the scene and can act without delay before the professionals get there. Similar to the excellent actions of the OP. Ah bollocks now I’m joining in…
Why post something reminding everyone that if the person does indeed survive they might have a miserable existence?
Because despite someone's best intentions there's not always a happy ending?
FWIW I would have done the same as the OP. The first aid courses I've attended have always had the same maxim, do something.
hope someone would have a go for me too.
Because despite someone’s best intentions there’s not always a happy ending?
I am 100% certain no one doubts that. The question was why bring up on this thread?
Why the need to talk about "mixed feelings" and to suggest that the OP might have done the poor guy a disservice?
It really wasn't necessary.
I'm fairly sure it wasn't me that took it in that direction.
Only really returning to give an update.
The guy "died" 5 times in hospital and suffered a minor stroke.
He had his family with him at Christmas and was released home just before new year. He's doing fine apparently.
I started the C(P)R having done lots of first aid courses to keep my tickets up to date and wondering what sort of person I'd be if I didn't help. I went into it thinking his likelihood of survival was low. Fortunately he survived and is living a life as before.
So please, if you can help that person. It might be you who needs the favour returned in the future.
That's great news! He is still alive, most likely due to your prompt actions, you deserve great credit for that. I hope that if ever necessary, I would try as hard as possible to keep going until help arrived. With all the crap going on in the world right now, it's great to read such an uplifting post. Well done 👏
Great outcome! Well done, that's gonna be a great message to your pupils.
Fantastic job.
Its not clear from your OP but were your students involved?
Well done, and a great lesson for the kids. I'm not sure as I'd have the testicular fortitude to do it, it's in our psyche not to get involved, "someone else will do it" or "what if I get it wrong?" Look at the recent "should I report my neighbour's illegal car?" thread, half the replies are variations on "mind your own business."
Suicide is legal here BTW.
This seems a weird concept. If it were illegal, what are they going to in the event of a successful attempt? Fine the deceased? Give the coffin 18 months in prison?
Fantastic update OP. My work first aid cert ran out last month, need to chase getting it redone.
Last day of term. Chemistry - no need for videos, I usually found something entertaining for them to do. However titrations! That's evil - like it.
Thanks for your prompt action. When I was a student, I was observing a lesson when the teacher collapsed - I was clueless. He turned out OK, while I was sent home the next day with what turned out to be a life threatening illness which had severe repercussions for my future career.
Well done, and a great lesson for the kids. I'm not sure as I'd have the testicular fortitude to do it, it's in our psyche not to get involved, "someone else will do it" or "what if I get it wrong?" Look at the recent "should I report my neighbour's illegal car?" thread, half the replies are variations on "mind your own business."
Would thoroughly recommend a first aid course, particularly outdoor.
Remove any doubt about your ability* helps and kinda gives you the confidence to think you will do something. You could still freeze of course but when you have a bit of knowledge you start thinking more about it. Like when i read the OP i pictured it and ran through what i would do.
100th - well done. I'm late to the thread here... Good that there was a positive outcome, its quite a thing to be involved in. Scottish Ambulance Service have a helpline number for public who participate in CPR: 0808 801 0899. Don't be afraid to call it - even with a happy outcome, and even weeks later. If your class witnessed that, or were involved it would be worth sharing that with them. Roughty toughty 15 yr old boys might laugh it off, but e.g. running to get a defib can be something that will haunt them for a while, and obviously they can't talk to their mates about it, because that would invalidate their manlihood!
My N5s also now understand concordant titre results.
I'll bet in 10 years time most of them don't remember what a titration is, but all will remember when their teacher went outside to save a guys life. And actually for most of them that's probably a more important life skill.
Definitely don't stop until you stop, my niece effectively drowned at a young age (described it later as going to sleep with her eyes open), two things that saved her - one the person who dragged her out of the water knew to carry on giving CPR despite no signs of life & two the paramedic knew to not waste time driving to the nearest hospital but to go straight to better equipped hospital.
No one can know the likely outcome for any age, so yes please keep keeping on & well done OP.
Good news. Thanks for the update. (And good work!)
Not all heroes wear capes.
👍 👍 Double thumbs up emogi for 100th. Good work and valuable life long lesson for the pupils.
My uncle was in military police, many years ago he jumped into a Manchester canal and dragged a young drowning girl out, gave CPR whilst someone called ambulance. Quietly wandered off when paramedics took over but someone must have taken his details though because the now grown woman with her own children traced him and they met up a year or so ago.
He also served on Royal Yatch Britannia and saved a fitter/mechanic who'd got tangled in a propshaft. Framed letter from the Queen in their house.
He's still the most racist person I've ever known so yin&yang in effect.
Well done OP, a tough situation to deal with.
It does raise some interesting questions about our views on death and awareness of DNR personal wishes.
Definitely don't stop until you stop, my niece effectively drowned at a young age (described it later as going to sleep with her eyes open), two things that saved her - one the person who dragged her out of the water knew to carry on giving CPR despite no signs of life & two the paramedic knew to not waste time driving to the nearest hospital but to go straight to better equipped hospital.
Absolutely, particularly when dealing with water related stuff, as cold water immersion can slow down the metabolism and give you longer to revive the patient. You ain't dead until you're warm and dead is the adage, I believe.
Either way, don't stop until someone more qualified tells you to stop. Well done OP, saving a life should be a massive source of pride and satisfaction to you, as well as the greatest gift to that person. Out of hospital survival from these events is pretty low, so it was definitely your intervention that made the difference.
Are you alright onehundredthidiot? I know it's been a while, but I guess that sort of stressful situation can linger in your head for a long time.
He's still the most racist person I've ever known so yin&yang in effect.
I know it shouldn't , but this punchline did make me lol. 🤣
No possible reason not to try it. As suggested up thread if someone is out walking about they are probably not at death's door where recovery will mean 18 months of poor quality life.
A neighbour aged 63 collapsed while out jogging. If it had been me I would be dead because I run off road where there would not have been any passers by. His was on a main road outside a golf clubhouse with a defib machine. After a heart operation he made a good recovery and has a fully normal life.
Congrats to OP. Life saved.
Just completed my 2-day outdoor first aid and as mentioned, you aren't dead until you are warm and dead!
This feels relevant to this thread: