'Don't Pay'

I will certainly be letting the water company chase me for my payment.

Brilliant! Where do you think the extra cost for all this to the energy companies is going to end up? That's right - even higher bills!

You're (marginally, arguably) better off lobbying your MP to get them to encourage some form of legislative action.

Brilliant! Where do you think the extra cost for all this to the energy companies is going to end up? That’s right – even higher bills!

See thread title.

It's a global price rise and the problem isn't with your energy supplier so why penalise them?
The big profits are being made by the oil and gas producers who are immune from the energy price cap
https://theconversation.com/britains-energy-price-cap-was-never-designed-to-keep-your-gas-and-electricity-affordable-188547

The only person not paying will hurt is the person not paying.

There isn't going to be enough gas to go around this winter, in a global sense. Sadly the only system we have to reduce demand is to increase the price. We can all run rounding saying look at the profits but non of that will solvethe actual problem.

As it stands I take issue with because of points 3 and 4.

Thus far I have not been able to verify those for factual accuracy, nor has anyone who I have seen posting it. To be fair, I never expect the people blindly sharing this sort of thing to have carried out any factual analysis. I ask anyway, you never know.

Because those two points form the foundation of what they are trying to achieve with it, it feels like they should be easily verifiable. If anyone can confirm with some industry based reading that would be awesome.

So I’m calling bullshit. In fact I will go so far as to say complaining to ofgem in this manner is going to be counter productive. Either ‘genuine’ complaints will get delayed massively or ofgem will need to scale up their workforce to deal with the issue. The latter will have to happen because, despite it being their own fault, the price complainers will moan something chronic if their complaints take too long. So an increase in staff, which means an increase in the ofgem operating costs. Who pays for that? We all know the answer there.

The real issue is the fact that the media and government and allowing,even encouraging people to blame their suppliers when in fact they are not the issue.

Don't really understand it, they may raise direct debits but they'll still only charge you for what you use, you could go to paying the specific usage off each month instead but it'll still cost the same overall?

Think a lot of people just see the monthly direct debit and assume that's the actual cost of their fuel usage when it isn't.

Blame the government, this was entirely foreseeable, if they'd actively encouraged renewables rather than blocking onshore wind and removing subsidies we wouldnt be in this mess.

Doing what the OP suggests is petty and vindictive and won't help one bit. Remember all the energy suppliers going bump last year?

Don’t really understand it, they may raise direct debits but they’ll still only charge you for what you use, you could go to paying the specific usage off each month instead but it’ll still cost the same overall?

I take issue with Point 1 as I get a significant discount for paying both gas and electricity by DD each month. Some months I'll build up a credit, some months I'll have a deficit but it all works out over the course of the year and I know that each month the same amount will go out.
Cancelling that and paying for what I use will result in me paying more (as I won't get the discount for paying by DD) and in summer I'll be paying less but in winter I'll be paying more and I don't want that.

The problem is coming in the form of the entire thing going up so whereas now I pay £x a month in DD, the price cap increase means I'll end up paying £2x a month instead.

Given current rates tho' the % of people that are hitting the cap has gone up considerably, and will go up again as winter comes and prices rise.

Interesting local debate in SW Norway that we are selling you power but local customers are being charged market rate... introducing a cable to the UK was help to make our price stable, and it has... just 200 times as high as we need to be, compared to the rest of the country (renewables are cheap, this is a market problem). Much pressure for government intervention as this is BS and hurting families and businesses. If you (the UK) don't pay don't expect a lot of sympathy, or electricity

The campaign seems to confuse suppliers and generators who aren't necessarily the same companies. Not paying a supplier, who just buys gas from a generator, isn't going to change anything.

The real issue is the fact that the media and government and allowing,even encouraging people to blame their suppliers when in fact they are not the issue.

Of course we all know where the real problem lies and they don't even pay road tax. That's right - it's cyclists we need to blame!

It probably sounds a bit one world government but really there needs to be some sort of international legislator that can hold the seemingly untouchable multinationals to account.

I get that supply is finite, but when they are making record profits in the billions year on year, there should be a mechanism to stop that and force them to lower thier prices.

I'm not saying don't allow them to make profit, or even increasing thier profit... But when profits are record highs and prices are record highs too, there's something rotten in Denmark.

Yeah I’ve seen this doing the rounds. Shit advice in my opinion, you still pay what you use, you won’t get a tariff rate and if you owe them they’ll still ask for the money but can’t adjust your DD to help you out.

It probably sounds a bit one world government but really there needs to be some sort of international legislator that can hold the seemingly untouchable multinationals to account.

I get that supply is finite, but when they are making record profits in the billions year on year, there should be a mechanism to stop that.

As the route cause of the current crisis is people literally bombing and killing innocent civlians a calm round table agreement seems unlikley

There isn’t going to be enough gas to go around this winter, in a global sense.

But there is in the UK. There are lots of shortages of lots of things globally, I am not entirely convinced it is the UK's responsibility to create a shortage here to elevate shortages in other countries.

Is the French government only going to increase EDF prices in the UK by 4% (like they have for French consumers) to help British consumers?

https://www.offshore-technology.com/news/uk-gas-europe-shortage/#:~:text=A%20spokesperson%20for%20the%20National,Sea%20resources%20and%20from%20Norway.%E2%80%9D

A spokesperson for the National Grid said: “The UK has never experienced a network gas supply emergency, and this scenario is extremely unlikely.

As the route cause of the current crisis is people literally bombing and killing innocent civlians a calm round table agreement seems unlikley

I understand that has a major impact currently, but record year-on-year profits for the likes of Shell and BP etc. whilst prices still keep creeping up is not a new phenomena.

The same rules could also apply to compaines like Amazon, Meta, Google etc.

There isn’t going to be enough gas to go around this winter, in a global sense.

But there is in the UK.

We're a net importer of gas, but as long as we're prepared to pay for LNG, we should be OK. It's only those who can't / won't afford to pay market rate for LNG over winter who will have shortages (and Germany who have been caught with their trousers down and can't disembark LNG yet).

Plus we're currently filling up EU gas reserves at the moment, so hopefully can call on some of those in winter if needed.

There was an interesting article in the FT the other day, suggesting it might be in Norway's long term interests to sell gas below market rates to Europe to keep Europe together over winter. https://www.ft.com/content/7d674295-af10-4b08-a396-50d9266cbbef

@footlflaps I don't think I disagree with that although I don't know about LNG and infra structure.

But in the end I think it's the same thing. The world is short of gas. The price goes up and rch countries will pay the extra. Others won't be able to and will go without

@footlflaps I don’t think I disagree with that although I don’t know about LNG and infra structure.

We have multiple LNG ports and from what I've read, so do southern European countries. The main problem is Germany who bet the house on Russian gas and also switched off Nuclear!

Quite ironic when the EU suggested 15% cuts in gas use across the EU, mainly to bail out Germany. All the countries who had, 10 years previously, been chastised by Germany for living beyond their means fiscally just turned round and said 'No, it's you who have been living beyond your means for years and we're not going to suffer for it'.

German's energy strategy was just to become 90% dependent on Putin, there was no Plan B.

The next year or so will see a massive push across Europe to increase gas interconnects and build LNG terminals, so in 18-24 months there could be the capacity to replace all Russian gas with LNG. Spain has quoted 9 months to interconnect it's LNG terminals to the main European grid.

The world is short of gas.

Only because we don't want to use Russian Gas. Long term that will end up being shipped to India, China, Turkey etc as LNG or via pipelines and then those countries will buy less Middle Eastern LNG (which we buy).

I take issue with Point 1 as I get a significant discount for paying both gas and electricity by DD each month.

I often hear this. Is it really that significant? I've never personally had a DD with an energy company because I don't like the idea of them helping themselves to whatever they feel like. When I mention this to people the standard reaction is always "OMG it's sooo much more expensive to just pay your bill when it arrives".  But it isn't really. I've checked. It is more. But not significantly more... not enough to warrant having your money in their account earning interest anyway.

But anyway, as the OP, I'm merely presenting this issue for discussion. I'm not necessarily condoning it. Although I probably will stop paying it personally. I do believe that if enough people do something then something will happen. Not sure what though.

@footflaps I’d also forgotten that of course Russian has will still end up in the market. A discount for supporting them. Interesting about Germany.

I’ve never personally had a DD with an energy company because I don’t like the idea of them helping themselves to whatever they feel like.

They don't. I can vary my payments, ask them to repay me anything I'm in credit at any time. Martin Lewis says it varied from firm to firm but roughly the difference between monthly DD and pay quarterly is 6%. That's going to be close on £250 when the new rates come in by my usage estimate. I'd say that's significant, YMMV.

As for the 4 step plan. What are we complaining about in step 2, just that the O&G producer pricing is too high or that the delivery firms are doing something wrong?

if they’d actively encouraged renewables rather than blocking onshore wind and removing subsidies we wouldnt be in this mess

THIS.

Well, we’d have a smaller more manageable problem rather than all this mess. It would still be a hard winter.

Energy efficiency as well… you know, that thing that people have been glueing themselves to roads to try and get the government to act on.

On “keeping it all for ourselves”, whether that’s the UK or Norway… shutting off interconnects would, in the long term, create problems even bigger than those that we face now. Resilience, reliability and diversity of supply will require more cooperation between nearby states as we move towards more renewables. Trying to make each state a bubble that just “looks after its own” won’t end well.

And on the OP, cancelling DD could result in you paying more. Careful.

As for the 4 step plan. What are we complaining about in step 2, just that the O&G producer pricing is too high or that the delivery firms are doing something wrong?

God knows. I suppose it's just about making a noise. 'the squeaky wheel gets the oil'. Lean on the energy co, energy co leans on the government, government scared of losing votes and hands out grants 'a la furlough scheme'... maybe.

They don’t. I can vary my payments, ask them to repay me anything I’m in credit at any time. Martin Lewis says it varied from firm to firm but roughly the difference between monthly DD and pay quarterly is 6%. That’s going to be close on £250 when the new rates come in by my usage estimate. I’d say that’s significant, YMMV.

Fair enough. That is significant. But also sounds like you're having to converse quite a lot with your energy co. I'd rather pay the £250 and not have to talk to them at all.

Back in 1986, when the Conservative government privatised the gas industry, it had only been nationalised for 40 years, since just after the end of World War II. With privatisation, shares were issued, about £9 billion worth, and many people invested in the stock market for the first time in their lives. It seemed like a brave new age.

It certainly seemed that way for the newly formed British Gas, too, since they’d been promised a lucrative monopoly for the next 25 years. That didn’t happen, however. 14 years later, in 2000, the market was opened up to competition, and consumers took advantage of it, many millions of them switching suppliers.

Overall it seemed as if privatisation was a good thing, as domestic gas bills declined by 32%, much of that spurred by competition since 2000. But now prices have risen and risen dramatically. What went wrong?

http://www.utilitycharges.co.uk/privatisation-gas.html

But also sounds like you’re having to converse quite a lot with your energy co.

Octopus energy and it's all on line. I can change my DD with about half a dozen clicks. Not that I need to, because their data driven system estimates future usage based on the past, obvs it goes up in winter and down in summer, etc. They then compare that to my balance and produce a nice chart that looks like a sine curve where my balance is credit in summer, in debt in winter and then back again. Until you click on 'crystal ball mode' when they tell you what the curve looks like on the basis of price cap forecasts and the shit hits the fan.......

I’d rather pay the £250 and not have to talk to them at all.

Change to Octopus. Send me your log in details. I'll manage it for you. £125 a year fee, and you're £125 better off for doing f'all.

But also sounds like you’re having to converse quite a lot with your energy co. I’d rather pay the £250 and not have to talk to them at all.

I have tweaked what I pay a couple of times over recent years when I disagreed with my suppliers assessment. No conversation required, just went into my online account and changed it.

I think a lot of people simply won't be able to pay when energy bills start arriving post Xmas/early '23

Comparisons are being made with the Poll Tax. People refused to pay and it was abolished. I was a little too young to know the ins and outs of that. But surely if enough people don't pay then something must happen.

So anyone else planning on sticking it to the man?

I wouldn’t class it as sticking it to the man but I only use a max of 5kw/day and pay £60/month for my electricity so I’ll not be paying anymore than that, if octopus try and increase my DD then I’ll cancel it and set up a standing order for £60/month.

I spend £20-£30 week on coal and £30 week on logs for heating, switched my air source heat pump off last winter so no heating/hot water as it costs an absolute fortune to run for buggerall heat.

But also sounds like you’re having to converse quite a lot with your energy co. I’d rather pay the £250 and not have to talk to them at all.

Online here as well, I can change my DD payments in a few clicks. Thankfully, they're pretty spot on with the rates anyway and as a back up I've got many years worth of meter readings recorded regularly.

I would absolutely rather NOT pay them an extra £250 thanks!

Interesting that Don't Pay won't divulge the names of those involved. Hmmmm. Lots of speculation as to who they really are, such as the Socialist Worker organisation, with funding from the US. Why would anyone donate when there's no clarity? Do you really want a blemished credit record? Run away!

Interesting times ahead and downright terrifying for some unfortunately.

Do you really want a blemished credit record? Run away!

I suspect there are quite a lot of people for whom a blemished credit record is pretty far down the list of priorities 🤣

£260 a month for coal and logs.
Fo real? Or do you mean £60 per month?

coal

Out of interest, why don't we just go back to coal? Or did we dig it all up? Likewise - nuclear.

I don't think comparisons really stand up. I'm also a bit young for the poll tax but that was a politically driven decision. The energy price increases have been coming a long time - they were kept artificially low by the cap and as a result when the market price increased firms went bust. As consumers we didn't protest too much there? And we didn't use the low prices to build buffers against when the inevitable increase was coming, it got in the main spent on consumer stuff.

Now we have the CoL crisis, driven not exclusively but largely by the energy price increases, and raw food increase plus the knock on effect of the energy cost on cost of goods in general. I don't understand how interest rates are supposed to halt that, when food and fuel is not discretionary spending. I also don't totally believe inflation's as high as it is, if we hadn't had caps and artificially low prices for several years we would not be seeing this step change which in the end is the inflation calc - how much is it today vs a year ago. I suspect inflation will flatten again and be two shallower lines with a steep section in it. Of course if that steep section has consumed any discretionary spending and now means that households don't have enough to cover the ND spending - then we're into the parlous situation we are already seeing and predicting 'heat or eat' and foodbanks and increased deaths among the eldery living in cold, damp houses, etc.

I see what is being said, that we need to express dissatisfaction and I suppose this is a way, but I don't personally think it's the right target. But how we protest in a time when the rights to protest are being eroded, the ruling party is consumed by its own internal squabbles, and the opposition is toothless, I don't know.

And they should stop right now with the terminology 'price cap'.
There will be a percentage of the uk population who will simply leave their heatimg on 24/7. Because the price is capped so it cant go any higher. And if it cant go any higher then sod it, I'm getting my flat nice and toasty warm as its capped. Martin Lewis told me it was capped, so it must be capped, but it isn't.
A few 3kw electric heaters and 60p per kwh, i reckon you could do £500pcm easy on electric if you're unfortunate to not have town gas and rely on electricity for cooking, heating , hot water etc.

£260 a month for coal and logs.
Fo real?

Yeah, I have spms and very limited mobility so can’t move to generate heat, cold winters are pretty horrible. My mum cleans out the fire/log burner in the morning and brings in coal/logs and lights fire so there’s a bit of heat in house when I get up, I keep it burning all day as bungalow is very poorly constructed and housing association will not insulate under floors/more insulation in attic/walls and the double glazing is 30+ years old.

Given current rates tho’ the % of people that are hitting the cap has gone up considerably

I don't think you understand how the cap works, it's the max they can charge per unit, not a cap on how much you pay per year, all these average households will pay X headlines are misleading. If you use more, you pay more. Nobody hits the cap, all the suppliers have effectively set their variable rates at the cap, they can still set fixed rates at what they want.

Comparisons are being made with the Poll Tax

It's not a valid comparison, the government can be influenced by people on the street, wholesale energy markets don't give a rats arse. Your supplier is caught in the middle. Governments can't really positively affect the wholesale markets short term, only long term by changing where our energy comes from, see my point earlier about failing to push renewables fast and hard enough.

a blemished credit record is pretty far down the list of priorities 🤣

Well it shouldn't be, a poor credit rating hikes up all sorts of costs and can end up with you on prepay meters which cost even more.

Renewables won't help us on a dark windless night in January.

As for subsidies. I think ghe current £11.5Bn per year and rising bill for subsidised renewables is enough.

https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2021/02/15/homeowners-fleeced-by-renewable-subsidies/

I wouldn’t class it as sticking it to the man but I only use a max of 5kw/day and pay £60/month for my electricity so I’ll not be paying anymore than that, if octopus try and increase my DD then I’ll cancel it and set up a standing order for £60/month.

I genuinely don’t understand your reasoning here. If your prices go up, which they will, all you will end up doing here is finding yourself building up a debt. Unless you plan on reducing your consumption in line with the increasing cost that is.

Comparisons are being made with the Poll Tax

Yep I vaguely remember being threatened with prison if I didn’t pay that one.

I’m pretty sure I paid and although the policy was stopped they still got the money out of you. I can’t remember as it was a long time ago in a galaxy full of beer and clubbing.

I expect the Gov will make it easier to automatically fine people or some bizarre thing that can’t be appealed.

I genuinely don’t understand your reasoning here. If your prices go up, which they will, all you will end up doing here is finding yourself building up a debt. Unless you plan on reducing your consumption in line with the increasing cost that is.

I live from my disability benefits, I simply do not have anywhere else I can cut expenditure to pay increased costs therefore I’m at that stage where I do not give a **** anymore

Absolutely nothing like the poll tax. That involved people refusing to pay, being fined even imprisoned for not paying, there were riots, protests. It was short lived as it turns out it was a shit idea all round.

DD, no they can’t just help themselves to your money. They contact you for any changes, I can change the amount is seconds, pay extra and withdraw too all without contacting them. On top of that save money.

@somafunk you probably know already, but Octopus have a fund set up to help people who are/will struggle. It’s absolutely worth contacting them sooner rather than later.

I'm not sure it's a useful campaign TBH.

Its not addressing the underlying problem of wage suppression and running essential services for shareholder's of profit making companies.

I get that utility companies making disgusting profits and driving working people into debt for the basics is terrible but the chattering classes withholding their payments for a bit will not really help. You might get a blip in cash flow, which they'll just make up for later, the share values might dip, but that only benefits the wealthy again as they hoover up some extra cheap shares which are almost guaranteed to rise again a few months later...

Pressure needs to be brought to bear on the government to re-regulate the energy sector, if necessary to take it back into public hands...

We're reaping the whirlwind from the last 30 odd years of privatisation, did anyone ever really believe private companies would put margins and share values before customers?

Doesn't really matter whether the utilities are privatised / regulated or not, they would still buy gas on the wholesale market which the government can't control. Wrong solution for the current crisis. Its not the utility companies making the huge profits, its the people getting the gas out of the ground.

I get that utility companies making disgusting profits and driving working people into debt for the basics is terrible

As an Octopus customer I got a letter / email from them this week; the salient point is pasted below

To date, Octopus have absorbed over £150m of increases, to keep our costs lower for existing customers, but we simply can't absorb it all. Putting it in perspective — in a normal year, we'd usually pay £1.5bn for the fuel we supply to customers. This year it's more like £9bn. There's more about this below — but to be clear, we have never made a profit and won't do this year.

No energy supplier can solve this problem — this isn't an industry issue, it's a consequence of war. This is why we've been calling on government help for all customers, regardless of who their supplier is.

I wasn't sure on that so googled and found this

https://www.statista.com/statistics/975744/octopus-energy-gross-profit-united-kingdom/#:~:text=Octopus%20Energy%20made%20a%20net,billion%20British%20pounds%20in%202021.

which seems to back it up - if their gross is £25M (on turnover of £1.9Bn, so GM = 1.3%) - I can well imagine nett margin is negative.

I simply don't see the gas and electricity providers as the enemy here.

Lots more info at https://octopus.energy/blog/energy-crisis-information/

Don’t really understand it, they may raise direct debits but they’ll still only charge you for what you use, you could go to paying the specific usage off each month instead but it’ll still cost the same overall?

Depends, my provider has definitely been in "taking the piss" mode for a while. They constantly raise the DD despite me being in a fixed tariff.

Comparisons are being made with the Poll Tax. People refused to pay and it was abolished

Yeah but they still had a debt against them and that was only buried in 2014, I wouldn't fancy a debt hanging over my head for the next 27 years.

did anyone ever really believe private companies would put margins and share values before customers?

At least two of the big boys are toying with a plan to keep a firm grip on our essential services and not lose any money in the process:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/15/centrica-and-octopus-back-plan-to-freeze-uk-energy-bills-for-two-years

Under the proposals, first reported by the Sunday Times, commercial banks would put cash into the state-backed fund, which suppliers could then draw on to fund measures to freeze customers’ default-tariff bills at the current price cap, £1,971, for two years.

The cost of the scheme would then be paid back over 10 to 15 years through a surcharge on bills or via taxation.

A surcharge on bills or via taxation the privatised companies don't lose. Their losses will be nationalised but their profits will remain privatised.

So if they're talking about extracting money from us both via bills and dipping their sticky fingers into government general tax funds, where's the difference between that and re-nationalising energy Companies in order to absorb wholesale gas costs over a decade (minus the need to find dividend payments and fat cat's salaries)?

Are you two not listening, it's not the utility companies making the money, it's the energy providers. In the example above the money from the banks would help pay for the energy along side what people pay, it doesnt stay with the utility company. If more utility companies go bust the cost will be passed onto us like it was last year.

Nationalise the utility companies and they still have to pay huge prices for the gas and electricity, if they keep our bills low the government will have to make up the shortfall which would be paid for through taxation so we end up paying anyway or other services will get less funding, probably both in reality.

Nationalisation is not the answer in the situation. The energy providers were never nationalised.

The energy providers were never nationalised.

I honestly don't understand what you mean. Are saying, for example, that the Central Electricity Generating Board was never nationalised?

Even local authorities were once energy providers.

it’s not the utility companies making the money,

I am fairly sure that utility companies make money. Are you suggesting that they are run as non-profit making organisations?

That was all based on the coal economy where the electricity generators used nationalised coal. Even the gas came from coal. That's all ancient history, our power is generated from natural gas predominantly (and is what we are generally using for domestic heating). The natural gas providers were never nationalised, Shell, BP etc, unless you are intending to try and nationalise international companies your nationalisation plan falls flat. Nationalise the electricity generators if you want but they will still have to buy gas on the international markets. Maybe you want to reopen the mines?

Are you suggesting that they are run as non-profit making organisations?

Octopus certainly seems be loss making according the links above. Quite a few clearly weren't profit making last year as they went bust.

. The natural gas providers were never nationalised,

Yes they were.

That was all based on the coal economy where the electricity generators used nationalised coal.

With respect I don't know what you are talking about. It wasn't just coal that was nationalised, the power stations themselves were nationalised.

You said "the energy providers were never nationalised" this isn't true. And I am genuinely baffled as to why you are saying it.

Maybe you want to reopen the mines

Would that be a bad idea?

Quite a few clearly weren’t profit making last year as they went bust.

So you are admitting that they can't operate without making money.

Earlier you said "it’s not the utility companies making the money".

So you know that they need to make money which is presumably why you want to nationalise their loses.

Which is fine I guess, we need utility companies to remain in business. But I also want to nationalise their profits. Seems fair - no?

https://octopus.energy/blog/built-to-last/

Ernie I've no idea what you're on about, the utilitity companies are not the ones making the money, ie the excessive profits this thread is all about. Even nationalised companies have to break even otherwise the tax payer has to subsidise them, so if nationalised companies had been charging the lower rates the utility companies were last year they may not have gone bust but woukd have been kept afloat by the tax payer.

Anyway this thread is about the excessive profits of the energy giants so nationalisation is a red herring, it won't fix the current problem. What would have prevented it was a coherent energy strategy weaning us off fossil fuels but that needs government to drive it, neither privatised or nationalised utilities would have given us the transition we needed at the speed we needed without government to drive the agenda which they clearly haven't. I'd hazard a guess that we would be further behind where we ought to be ofvthe utilities had remained nationalised, nationalised industries are notoriously moribund and change averse.

Maybe you want to reopen the mines

Would that be a bad idea?

I'm not even going to bother answering that.

Yes they were.

Actually I'm not sure they ever were. Wasn't the entire North Sea market sold to private companies? The infrastructure once it hit land may well have been nationalised but it wasn't at source.

@stumpyjohn you seem to be under the misapprehension that most of our generation source is gas. It's not, [url= https://gridwatch.co.uk ]right now it's 42%[/url]. However because of the way the market works renewables and even nuclear can't be sold cheaper and nobody seems interested in changing that (most likely least of all the companies that have been on their arse for a few years now having sold energy futures at retrospectively terrible rates and had subsequent shortfalls at higher cost)

Ernie I’ve no idea what you’re on about

Well at least we can agree on something - neither of us knows what the other is talking about.

I don't know what you are talking about when you say "the energy providers were never nationalised" because it clearly isn't true - Electricity Act 1947.

And you don't know what I am talking about when I say okay fine, nationalise the losses, but also nationalise the profits.

squirrelking you are correct but as you also point out gas prices drive the whole market.

And this is all being driven by the price of gas. The gas is extracted by private international companies it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to nationalise. Nationalise the power stations, the grid, the people doing the billing, the biggest cost of energy to the consumer is from the likes of Shell which probably can't be nationalised.

We're also in this mess because the government decided to decommission our gas storage infrastructure in 2017, the government decided to do thus, not the private cutility companies.

And to be clear I'm talking about the people providing the fossil fuels we currently use, they were never nationalised. I know the power stations were, along with the grid, but thats not the bit that's driving up the costs at the moment.

The gas is extracted by private international companies it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to nationalise.

Why? Norway has been doing it for half a century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equinor

Did Norway ever have a private sector or was nationalised from the start. Even if we did nationalise north sea gas it would only provide about half of what need so were still subject to international markets.

Anyway we've derailed another thread, back to the OP not paying your bill isn't a great idea, the people we need to upset are our politicians to make sure we aren't at the mercy of the international markets in the future. Nationalisation of what fossil fuel we have left might be part of that but I don't remember the service being very good when things were nationationalised so personaly don't think that is the answer. The common denominator in all this is our governments have not been great at managing privatised or nationalised utilities.

I see from your ninja edit Statoil was nationalised from inception in 1972 to 2001 when it was privatised. The article says it was merged with the Norwegian state power people in 2017, merged rather than nationalised, I don't understand the implications of that but still a bit different from the way we have run our side of the North sea.

Old style electricity meter - the type with the spinning disc.

I've known people in the past to drill a tiny hole(1/2mm, in line with the disc on one side through the plastic case, then push a needle through till it contacts the edge of the disc stopping it  thus saving the meter clock from moving.

The hole is visible despite its small size, but I've also heard you can drill in from underneath the meter box which is less visible, or disguise the hole in the side with some strategically placed drops of paint

Of course im not recommending here that anyone with that type of meter does this, and i believe many people were caught because they forgot to remove the needle/pin/thin wire when they came round to read the meter, thus giving the game away.

That’s more like it. Good practical solutions. But who has an old school meter these days?

What about ‘diverting’ power from a nearby street lamp? The councils are basically stealing from us anyway with outrageous council-tax bills (£1400 to empty a bin…) so this would redress the balance somewhat.

Perhaps a post on FB Marketplace asking for old scrap car tyres. A permanent fire could be maintained in one’s garden or drive, fuelled by old tyres and powering a boiler.

I see from your ninja edit Statoil was nationalised from inception in 1972 to 2001 when it was privatised.

Sorry it wasn't intended as an ninja edit, I just added a link which I thought would useful.

Yes it was partially privatised but it remains overwhelming in state hands and the Norwegian government controls it. In the same way that the French government's 85% stake in EDF left in control of that company.

Your claim that it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to nationalise energy production doesn't appear particularly convincing.

Worth noting here that the amount of profits most energy companies make on a domestic supply is usually under 3% and in recent years much less.

Octopus pretty much reinvest all theirs, and they also make a lot of their cash from licensing their software. I don’t know much about most other suppliers.

What I do know is the media (and on occasion where it suited them, the government) have spun stories which have in turn influenced public perception on the issue. Centrica (who own BG) made a bucket load of cash - but what wasn’t reported was the breakdown of which businesses centrica owns actually made that money. There sure aren’t going to subsidise one business with profits from another. Shell is another - huge profits but almost certainly not from their energy supply business.

So nationalising the supply business is pointless. The wholesale cost is still high and they make very little profit off our bills. It would cost billions to nationalise and then billions more to then keep the prices capped.

There sure aren’t going to subsidise one business with profits from another. Shell is another – huge profits but almost certainly not from their energy supply business.

So why should the government subsidize then? Or are you saying they shouldn't either?

And if Shell aren't making profits from the energy supply business why the hell are they involve?

Edit: It really is a case of any losses and the taxpayer should cough up, any profits and the private companies should fill their boots. Isn't it?

I’ve known people in the past to drill a tiny hole(1/2mm, in line with the disc on one side through the plastic case, then push a needle through till it contacts the edge of the disc stopping it thus saving the meter clock from moving.

Hahaha yeah that old trick. It was best to cover it by boxing the meter in so you couldn't physically get anywhere near it, to see it!

There is a non-invasive trick for certain types of gas meter but I'm not posting it up as I will likely get banned. The other approaches are a bit more involved and susceptible to disaster by stupidity!

It would cost billions to nationalise and then billions more to then keep the prices capped.

Basically this and you still need a government with a forward looking energy stratgey, not something we've had for years. And the final negative for me is nationalised industries are plagued by overly powerful unions.

are plagued by overly powerful unions

Blimey, that's what it's really all about....... hatred of organised labour and the ability of working people to establish decent wages and conditions for themselves.

You should have said it from the start, rather than leave that little gem til the end 💡

Are you two not listening,

We are, we just don't agree.

All we've got now are middlemen handling billing between those delivering energy and the consumers (an additional markup).

I get each KWh has a base cost that rises and falls with the market. The problem is where a nationalised ’supplier’ could absorb price fluctuations over a longer period, commercial suppliers are always going to be bumping up against any price cap and will be desperate to report profits on a quarterly basis.

As mentioned above, those commercial suppliers are now eyeing government funds as a way of recouping losses (plus margin?).

The issue is around whoever ends up billing customer having to absorb some degrees of losses in the short to medium term because Cost of living really isn't going to catch up anytime soon, the state has always been better at that that businesses, the number of busy "energy suppliers" from the last few years is testament to that...

Of course it's all academic, there's no way any of those currently in contention for government would do what I'm suggesting. So we'll just keep bankrupting billing companies and put consumers on a pricing rollercoaster because the free market demands it...

And if Shell aren’t making profits from the energy supply business why the hell are they involve?

I'm guessing he meant not huge profits.

Then again, Abellio never made any profit from Scotrail so you never know.

It's almost funny how people think it's thier local supplier that's making the money.

News flash..

And the final negative for me is nationalised industries are plagued by overly powerful unions.

Stumpy the tory playing true to type.

This thread is the most depressing on this whole forum. Millions are being ripped off. It doesn’t matter who is doing it, only that the end consumer is suffering. Yet we have people here making excuses for and defending corporate monopolies. Turkeys voting for Christmas. It’s pathetic.