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I turned mine off because I was going for a bike ride and I didn't want to be disturbed. Seriously I like the peace and connection to nature when on a ride.
My 83 year old mother in law has a dumb phone and that didn't do anything, I presume it is smart phones only.
At home we don't get a mobile reception so my wife and daughter didn't seem to get any messages but they will have been connected to wifi.
We live in a flood area but we always know when the rivers are going to get high, I cannot see how flood awareness will be helped by this. Maybe when travelling? probably not in my case but.
One scenario we could think of where it would be useful was when Derek Bird was shooting people and the in laws lived near Ennerdale and didn't have a clue, probably still wouldn't due to dumb phone point above.
I will turn it back on but if there is a nuclear war I want to be where the bombs land, I have seen when the wind blows 🙂
I wonder how much this has cost?
I wonder who was contracted to make it happen? Serco maybe?
Are you aware that the support for this sort of messaging has been a part of the global standards for handsets and network infrastructure for a decade or so (maybe more). The only add ons for the test would be the instruction to tell the network providers to send the message - that's the handful of top level provider not all the resellers - and of course a bit of monitoring to see what happened. Plus a massive PR campaign to tell people it's coming so they can get all indignant about it, of course.
Take the example of the manchester bombings. so everyone in the city centre gets the alert and all start heading out of the town centre causing traffic issues making it harder for the emergency services to get to the bombing site and creating more confusion. Potentially causing more deaths as everyone panics to get away
Take the example of the manchester bombings. so everyone in the city centre gets the alert and all start heading out of the town centre. As a result, some innocent young people have their lives saved by not being caught our in secondary device explosions.
Perhaps an alternative way of looking at things.
I turned mine off because I was going for a bike ride and I didn’t want to be disturbed. Seriously I like the peace and connection to nature when on a ride.
It lasted 10 seconds.
I assume that you don't talk to anyone when you are at one with nature?
Take the example of the manchester bombings.
The first attack has started and the alert is late, but some children hiding from terrorists have their phones make a loud noise, giving their location away to terrorists who then find and kill them....
As a result, some innocent young people have their lives saved by not being caught our in secondary device explosions.
More likely surely a more people would be on the streets and thus vulnerable to the secondary devices
I put my phone on mute when I go for a bike ride, if I don't want it going off then that is my prerogative don't you think?
TBF, those who need ‘warning’ often will be the ones with zero common sense – see some of the stories from folk going out/travelling in Beast from the East, various floods and drivers who pile into deep water, winter storm warnings which people dont event have a few beans in the cupboard and couple of candles ready in case etc….
So why they take notice of this system? The Beast from the East was well forecast and was no secret.
– flash flooding taking out homes while still occupied
– multiple moorland fires spreading fast endangering lives
– a dam at sudden risk of imminent collapse above a town
So if the flash flooding was so flash that nobody forecast it, how would this system help?
Who was on the moors when they were on fire?
Sudden risk of collapse? Is that the one where it was all over the news for days?
The tinfoil hat vibe is strong on this thread.
Not really, more "would rather see the government spend money on useful systems and infrastructure".
I put my phone on mute when I go for a bike ride,
That won't stop the alert.
More likely surely a more people would be on the streets and thus vulnerable to the secondary devices
Blimey, this is hard going. So perhaps it might be the case that the authorities are aware of secondary devices so use the alert to advise people to take cover indoors rather than to follow natural instinct and run from the area.
Have a look at the Netflix series on the Boston bomber and tell me if you still think there isn't a (very remote) chance that alerts like this could be useful.
I believe it will be overused. I don’t think its needed. I think we will get alerts that are of no use at all.
Speculation, opinion, speculation again.
TBH I'm kind of with you as to whether it's needed. I'm assuming that the technology is something inherent in the 4G network rather some sort of UK-specific initiative. The control setting is on everyone's phone, it'd be pretty wild if Samsung, Google, Nokia, Huawei et al had all added the feature at the behest of the UK Government. (That's one for the conspiracy theorists!) So rather, the functionality exists for territories which are prone to, say, earthquakes. Here in the UK some MP or civil servant has tripped over it and gone "hey, I wonder if this works?" so they've tested it without any real thought as to what it might be useful for.
I expect there may be a second test to see if Three have got their act together, and then it'll never be mentioned again outside of conspiracy theory circles. Who are of course now all dead after the alert activated the pathogens in the coronavirus vaccine.
Cost I'd imagine has been pushed onto the telcos - the government makes it compulsory for them to support the service.
The utility is more for natural disasters which thankfully we don't have as much as other countries. For example wildfires in Australia and California - they broadcast a "get out now" message on TV and radio, but that's not as ubiquitous as a mobile phone alert.
For the UK I'd imagine the big risks are floods and dam failures.
Armageddon and terrorist attacks are not what this solves.
Take the example of the manchester bombings. so everyone in the city centre gets the alert and all start heading out of the town centre causing traffic issues making it harder for the emergency services to get to the bombing site and creating more confusion.
You do have two-way roads in Edinburgh, yes?
Not really, more “would rather see the government spend money on useful systems and infrastructure”.
There is never a choice, it's not ever a matter of "if we pay for this, there's no money for this other thing" regardless of what govt tell you. You're no doubt aware that there are scores of folks saying exactly the same thing you're saying about this, but about LTNs and cycling infrastructure.
I turned mine off because I was going for a bike ride and I didn’t want to be disturbed. Seriously I like the peace and connection to nature when on a ride.
Why is your phone switched on in the first place then?
(Other than in case someone needs to call you in an emergency...)
My 83 year old mother in law has a dumb phone and that didn’t do anything, I presume it is smart phones only.
It is, as far as I'm aware, carried on 4G/5G networks. My mum's phone doesn't have 3G. (It barely has G, it's probably on F.)
Speculation, opinion, speculation again.
Same as those who are inventing speculative scenarios where this might be useful that equally could make the situation worse
I put my phone on mute when I go for a bike ride, if I don’t want it going off then that is my prerogative don’t you think?
Absolutely. I just wondered what happens if you meet another cyclist or horse rider when you are at one with nature and they attempt to talk to you.
Based on the rather strange preference you have not to endure a 10 second distraction.
And yeah as mentioned putting your phone on silent wouldn't have made any difference.
Why is your phone switched on in the first place then?
I put it on mute. If I fall badly my wife knows where I am or I can pull it out and make a call.
I turned these notifications off because I knew they were coming and that I would be on my bike. It is a very specific scenario.
I have reactivated the alerts now.
Absolutely. I just wondered what happens if you meet another cyclist or horse rider when you are at one with nature and they attempt to talk to you.
I am surprisingly chatty and social on a ride, I am in a happy place. I do like to get away from pings and calls whilst doing it though.
Same as those who are inventing speculative scenarios where this might be useful that equally could make the situation worse
I listed examples where it would have been useful. All likely to reoccur. We have existing ways of notifying people... many are decades old. This is a long overdue update, given how common it is to have a mobile phone close by these days. Wilfully not using the tech would be the odder choice, in my opinion.
Teej – yes there are undoubtedly many other ways that people find out about issues, from panicked crowds to police knocking on the door to seeing the queue of cars stuck ahead of them. This system is just another way of finding out, and you believe it will never be used so what’s the harm in leaving it turned on just in case you are somewhere (maybe on one of your epic trips) where something notification-worthy does happen. Maybe a cocaine frenzied bear loose in a forest – I saw a documentary about that
What if I want to use my phone as erm... you know a phone?
I'm with TJ and I can't see any possible scenario with any utility unless we got honest and accurate ones which we won't.
We have the signs on smart motorways which seem to be 50% or so inaccurate... "workers in carriageway" seems to mean "cones we couldn't be arsed moving" more often than not. If its meant to be "live" then it should be correct or most people very quickly lose trust. I'm guessing the messages are just some bored contractor sat somewhere copy/pasting random messages into the smart motorway boards.
Either it's going to be meaningless waffle like "police have declared a major incident" but not say what after the incident (or not) has occurred and without giving people the detail they need to make their own decisions or we are all walking dead and the government are ensconced in their bunkers.
I listed examples where it would have been useful.
Where you claim it would and where those claims can be easily refuted speculation and opinion as Cougar says
This sort of technology can do amazing things
and some properly dumb things
2018 Hawaii false missile alert - Wikipedia
That of both of these sorts of events happen simultaneously is not a measure of whether this technology should exist or not.
I’m with TJ and I can’t see any possible scenario with any utility unless we got honest and accurate ones which we won’t.
It doesn't matter, the technology exists and isn't going to go away now. That you don't think it will help is irrelevant. Use it, don't use, it doesn't matter.
Sudden risk of collapse? Is that the one where it was all over the news for days?
I refer you to all the people for whom the alert seemingly came as a great surprise despite it being all over the Everything for weeks. Someone earlier on the thread had only just heard about it yesterday, someone else was suggesting that they'd be running up and down stairs in a blind panic going "WTF?!" if their phone made a funny noise.
Seemingly, some people interact with the rest of the world occasionally whilst others live under rocks. So it's clearly not a binary choice between "news to no-one" and "news to everyone."
Such a bizarre little thing for everyone to be so dramatic about. Like, there's a fire at a chemical factory and people living downwind should close their windows; "not me, I'd rather be asphyxiated than receive a text message!!"
What's the process by which an incident gets deemed sufficiently serious to activate this process, and how many layers of government does it have to pass by before someone gives the go-ahead?
Same as those who are inventing speculative scenarios where this might be useful that equally could make the situation worse
You: "Tell me a scenario"
Others: "OK, here's a few"
You: "Well, you're just making that up"
🤷♂️
Where you claim it would
In all the examples, people were notified though older means. Notifying people of a pressing risk already happens. And they have a failure rate (our local sirens are bugger all use to deaf people, for example... local radio news is listened to by fewer and fewer people), so why not also use modern means?
What if I want to use my phone as erm… you know a phone?
How is this preventing you from doing that in any way? All you have to do is press "OK" on the alert before you can carry on with whatever you were doing before, or perhaps not depending on what the message said.
I put it on mute. If I fall badly my wife knows where I am or I can pull it out and make a call.
I turned these notifications off because I knew they were coming and that I would be on my bike. It is a very specific scenario.
I have reactivated the alerts now.
Ah, that seems more reasonable.
What’s the process by which an incident gets deemed sufficiently serious to activate this process, and how many layers of government does it have to pass by before someone gives the go-ahead?
That's actually an interesting question. In the case of national alerts I'm assuming - probably optimistically - that it will be included as part of a National Response policy. Y'know,
"In the case of imminent nuclear attack:
Step 1: put down champagne glass and remove penis from secretary
Step 2: run and hide
...
Step 17: send out 'you're all gonna die' text message to the plebs
Step 18: see if Pob has any marching powder left"
But does it have to be national? It can be isolated by cell location, can't it? (I don't actually know.) The idea that control of local alerts could be delegated to local councils is almost more worrying than the Tories having it. 😁
The idea that control of local alerts could be delegated to local councils is almost more worrying than the Tories having it.
EXTREME ALERT: MARKET DAY AT SKIPTON WILL END AT MIDDAY DUE TO INCLEMENT WEATHER
I'd be waiting for someone taking the opportunity to abuse Cllr Roberts on their last day in the job.
Squirrelking – explain why/ how a mobile phone alert will make any difference rather than just stating it will?
@tjagain you are completely taking the piss on this one. It's really not hard to see the benefits.
*warning* ammonia tanker overturned at Haymarket station, please avoid area within 1/2 mile, for more details see [link]
You're the one trying to tell us it's useless so explain how you would disseminate such info to the maximum amount of people in the least amount of time within a specific geographic area?
Given plenty of people don't watch live TV
Given plenty of people don't listen to the radio.
Given a finite amount of emergency services and the biggest impact being as early into the incident as possible.
It's really not difficult to see how this could save lives.
As for who gets to send the alert, I'd say thats probably going to be delegated to incident/area commanders.
It can be isolated by cell location, can’t it?
Yes, I think initially it'll be used for extreme weather, fires and as Kelvin suggests; flood warnings. Like him I just see it as another way of alerting people to what's going on. People tend to have their phones on them, and they can read the message, and doesn't rely on telly or radio, or sirens (which frankly sound like air raid warnings)
I believe plenty of other nations have similar systems.
Mumble mumble, British exceptionalism, mumble mumble back in our day, mumble mumble.
What’s the process by which an incident gets deemed sufficiently serious to activate this process, and how many layers of government does it have to pass by before someone gives the go-ahead?
But does it have to be national? It can be isolated by cell location, can’t it? (I don’t actually know.) The idea that control of local alerts could be delegated to local councils is almost more worrying than the Tories having it.
The same question stands... what is the process and what process can in any way provide any utility?
Noone local trusts the road closed or diversion signs... if you want to find out if a rural road is really closed you move the sign and drive down it or ask around and whatever you do don't follow a diversion as you'll be diverted onto a closed road.
They have days or weeks to get this right... I can't even imagine a process that would give any accuracy in "minutes"...
@tjagain you are completely taking the piss on this one. It’s really not hard to see the benefits.
*warning* ammonia tanker overturned at Haymarket station, please avoid area within 1/2 mile, for more details see [link]
You’re the one trying to tell us it’s useless so explain how you would disseminate such info to the maximum amount of people in the least amount of time within a specific geographic area?
Ok lets dismantle this scenario
1) how long will it take to get the alert out? lets be generous that its 10 mins ( police to scene, assess situation, call for the alert alert approved) my bet would be its longer
2) during this 10 mins with an overturned tanker at haymarket all the roads will gridlock
3) no one who is not in the area can get out, no one who is in the area can get in.
4) the alert not being universal alternatives will still be needed and can be put in place quicker ie cops blocking roads - simpler decision process
5) granularity - the alert will be spread to a wider area causing confusion and panic over a wider area
I cannot see the alert making any difference in this scenario
Your view may differ.
I can’t even imagine a process that would give any accuracy in “minutes”…
If you can't 'even imagine' that then you are probably lacking in imagination.
I was out on my e-bike, was going to have a day off the bike but was bored so was doing a quick blast in Boost mode. Proper panicked when the phone went off, thought it was a warning my battery was about to explode!
Had heard something about the test but no idea what date and time it was going off so didn't remotely link the two, glad I checked my phone before pedaling back with the motor turned off!
if you want to find out if a rural road is really closed you move the sign and drive down it
There's a word for people like that.
Proper panicked when the phone went off, thought it was a warning my battery was about to explode!
Had heard something about the test but no idea what date and time it was going off so didn’t remotely link the two, glad I checked my phone before pedaling back with the motor turned off!
I believe that was one of the reasons for the test, to acquaint people with it so that there is minimal confusion should a real alert be necessary.
There’s a word for people like that.
Do you have a better way when they lie 80% of the time and the roads just have signs and no actual work?
If you can’t ‘even imagine’ that then you are probably lacking in imagination.
If the people authorising road closures can't even get it right better than 1/2 the time when they have days or weeks then assuming they can get something right within seconds or minutes is simply dreaming.
Do you have a better way when they lie 80% of the time and the roads just have signs and no actual work?
You're conflating two things here, motorway signs and rural signage.
I'd agree that motorway matrix signs often appear to be "crying wolf" but they will always err on the side of caution. They're not going to turn off a "debris in road" warning until they're absolutely sure that it's totally clear. It's unsurprising that many people, shall we say, "take them as advisory."
Moving "road closed" signs out of the way and driving through anyway is a self-entitled ****'s trick. There could be all manner of reasons why it's closed which aren't immediately obvious (and this is true of the motorway too, there could be a temporary speed limit in place with no-one visibly working because they're working underneath the road where you can't see them).
A rural road could be closed off, for instance, because they've just laid a new road surface so it's technically passable but would ruin the new surface. There's a bridge near me which is fenced off because it's unstable - it looks fine but it's about ready to fall down. People keep breaking through the fence to cross it rather than walk 100 yards to the next one.
If the people authorising road closures can’t even get it right better than 1/2 the time when they have days or weeks then assuming they can get something right within seconds or minutes is simply dreaming.
Ah yes, that well known single central government department of National Security And Filling In Potholes In Barnoldswick.
Can’t foresee the unforeseen circumstances an alert may be necessary? LOL
I’m sure they’ll be sparsely used, overuse would cause (more) people to switch off, I don’t count 1 test that shows some improvement is needed overuse… yet… First time it’s used for real it’ll be national news again, maybe then decide if they are actually worthwhile.
No alerts in the foo household I suspect our Android phones are too old, newest is 9 can’t see any Emergency notification settings. We’ll be the first to be wiped out when the aliens invade!
If the people authorising road closures can’t even get it right better than 1/2 the time when they have days or weeks then assuming they can get something right within seconds or minutes is simply dreaming.
The emergency alerts won't be used to inform drivers of road closures.
Emergency alerts will only be sent by:
the emergency services
government departments, agencies and public bodies that deal with emergencies
So not the geezer in the small pickup with a couple of dozen traffic cones then?
Edit: That's in response to a now deleted post.
2) during this 10 mins with an overturned tanker at haymarket all the roads will gridlock
3) no one who is not in the area can get out, no one who is in the area can get in.
What about all the people on foot or on bikes? Or just generally in the area who might decide to head outside?
Not the first time we've evacuated part of the site due to a suspected ammonia leak and yes, if had been real people might have died*. We have a tannoy and alarm system, as far as I can see an emergency alert is the next best thing.
if you want to find out if a rural road is really closed you move the sign and drive down it
There’s a word for people like that.
My thoughts exactly. But @cougar, don't get drawn into his usual paranoia/lying argument.
*please for the love of god don't reduce this to a helmet argument, noxious chemicals and their effects are well documented.
5 million well spent, I'm sure. There are some murmurs that the sub-contract went to Rishi's missus' firm Infosys via Fujitsu (of Post Office Shitshow fame), but that can't be true in this new age of political integrity.
My thoughts exactly. But @cougar, don’t get drawn into his usual paranoia/lying argument.
I mean,
I can empathise to a degree. I wouldn't trust our current government as far as I could kick them. But "the government has said it and they're evil therefore we must do the opposite" is woolly-headed. It's the same logic leap we see when people go from 'self-serving Big Pharma' to vaccination denial.
I'm reminded of those old riddles that went along the lines of "one demon always lies and one always tells the truth, which door do you choose?" 😁
5 million well spent, I’m sure.
Hang on.
How on Earth can it cost £5M to instruct four service providers to broadcast a message using pre-existing technology (one of whom didn't even manage it?)
Is that what this is all about, we implemented the networks half-assed? I need to go do some reading on how this all works I think.
Ah yes, that well known single central government department of National Security And Filling In Potholes In Barnoldswick.
Ah you mean Hope ???
You’re conflating two things here, motorway signs and rural signage.
I’d agree that motorway matrix signs often appear to be “crying wolf” but they will always err on the side of caution. They’re not going to turn off a “debris in road” warning until they’re absolutely sure that it’s totally clear. It’s unsurprising that many people, shall we say, “take them as advisory.”
Moving “road closed” signs out of the way and driving through anyway is a self-entitled ****’s trick. There could be all manner of reasons why it’s closed which aren’t immediately obvious (and this is true of the motorway too, there could be a temporary speed limit in place with no-one visibly working because they’re working underneath the road where you can’t see them).
A rural road could be closed off, for instance, because they’ve just laid a new road surface so it’s technically passable but would ruin the new surface. There’s a bridge near me which is fenced off because it’s unstable – it looks fine but it’s about ready to fall down. People keep breaking through the fence to cross it rather than walk 100 yards to the next one.
I'm just taking something that should be dead easy to create messaging about with days or weeks of planning but is still incorrect.
To take your example ... if a road is "closed" all day / week
A rural road could be closed off, for instance, because they’ve just laid a new road surface so it’s technically passable but would ruin the new surface.
then there should be some fresh tarmac... all week you'd think there would be some or workpeople but roads signed as closed all week.. diversion goes up against an actual closed road 2-3 miles away where people are actually working... and no-one living on the closed road has seen any work on it the whole week.
Meanwhile roads meant to be open were closed ... so the chance of work on a road had no relationship to any signage.
The entire village was just moving the signs... after a week there was a single pothole filled...
To give you a local idea this is like they closed Padiham road out of Sabden... so you take the diversion signed up Simonstone lane past the Higher Trap... only to get 1/2 way up and find its closed... so you reverse back down and take Whalley road to the picnic area .. drive to Padiham and then going back go via the picnic area and find that road is signed as closed... so you go back and over back lane... which is closed but not signed as closed so you go back and find Padiham road had no work on it all week... they just put signs up... and this randomly changes each day.
Pretty much most of the roads are singletrack with passing places... the detours are miles but you have no idea if they detour is actually open.. and the signed detour is actually closed.
There’s a bridge near me which is fenced off because it’s unstable – it looks fine but it’s about ready to fall down. People keep breaking through the fence to cross it rather than walk 100 yards to the next one.
Well that's what happens when people no longer trust ... everyone I know locally was doing the same thing or phone someone living on the road and asking if its really closed or not. Presumably the contractor got paid anyway as they closed the road... and someone somewhere has ticked it and told finance to pay them. Who knows? Maybe its just incompetence, maybe someone is taking their skim off the work that hasn't actually been done ?
So to me it's the same as the motorway matrix signs. It's the same speed limit... wouldn't it just be better to be honest and if the restriction is in place because they are "too lazy to move the cones after they finished" just say "speed limit 50 because we can't be bothered to move the cones" (or its more expensive etc.)
I'm sure on the face of it they think they are getting away with it ... and probably in terms of that one sign or road closure they did... but over time people stop trusting the signs or as you say view them as advisory. Something like "workforce in carriageway" is pretty binary... either they are or aren't and if there are no people or vehicles whatsoever in the work area/hard shoulder then clearly they either left ages ago or haven't turned up or ???
It's all very Peter and the Wolf...
I just can't see any way this emergency thing can be used? Either it's reserved for a nuclear attack or it gets used for all sorts of stuff, most of which will turn out to be either lies or so vague its of no value and whatever the process is its going to involve people most people wouldn't trust to tell them the weather happening right now.
It’s all very Peter and the Wolf…
which instrument played the warning sound?
Either it’s reserved for a nuclear attack or it gets used for all sorts of stuff,
You know, if you think really really hard about it you might find there's quite a lot of middle ground between those two extremes
£5M is the cost of the entire contract, not just yesterdays test. So basically naff-all in the grand scheme of things.How on Earth can it cost £5M to instruct four service providers to broadcast a message using pre-existing technology (one of whom didn’t even manage it?)
TJ - its interesting that you think it will be misused, so turned it off. I actually expect it will be underused, precisely because the speed of decision making on when to use it and what to send will make incident commanders unsure what do to for fear of being criticised they have invaded everyone's living rooms or used badly worded messaging.
With your overturned tanker situation its more likely the messaging would be to stay inside with windows closed rather than to avoid the area. The messaging needs to be for people who are already in the risk zone, not those who would face a cordon. I would imagine its not impossible that Leith would have chemical tankers going to/from Grangemouth. Just because incidents are very rare doesn't mean having a tool to deal with them isn't useful.
But I decide to disable alerts that annoy me after they annoy me rather than pre-emptively. I'd say they've got perhaps 2-3 misuses (tests no more than once every 6 months are not misuse) before I'd disable it. Other countries seem to largely manage this stuff without pissing people off or causing them to run out their houses into a hail of gunfire. Is it that their populations are smarter or their governments are more competent?
wouldn’t it just be better to be honest and if the restriction is in place because they are “too lazy to move the cones after they finished” just say “speed limit 50 because we can’t be bothered to move the cones” (or its more expensive etc.)
It's ludicrous to expect them to lift up all the cones down several miles of road after a shift every evening, then lay them back down again ready for morning. Aside from, have you seen how long it takes to lay cones?, it's the sort of "wasting the taxpayers' money" notion that the Big Two Fury Erupting Newspapers™ would get into a right frot over.
What isn't implausible is to stick up signs, "speed limit in force 7am-8pm weekdays."
As you're probably aware, the midsection of the M65 is down to 50mph at the moment. I've never seen anyone working on it, it's just a row of cones down the hard shoulder. Pretty much everyone ignores it, this is the 'trust' issue you were talking about. But that's because people don't know why it's reduced and again, signage would help with that. "Speed limit in force due to workers under the bridge / loose surface / no hard shoulder / narrow lanes / noise reduction during nesting season / zombie invasion" would go a long way towards stopping people going "well, there's no-one there!" and then maybe even slowing down.
Is it that their populations are smarter or their governments are more competent?
... yes? 😁
Well that was the 2nd test in Reading, ironically it's been deemed a great success as we all died in the fireball resulting from all the crashed cars on the M4 during the first test last year* meaning that no one died this time.
*the resulting reduction in population is the reason for Reading being continually denied city status.
I can empathise to a degree. I wouldn’t trust our current government as far as I could kick them. But “the government has said it and they’re evil therefore we must do the opposite” is woolly-headed. It’s the same logic leap we see when people go from ‘self-serving Big Pharma’ to vaccination denial.
Current government? Blair? Local councils they all lie but we have become so inured it often ceases to register.
But “the government has said it and they’re evil therefore we must do the opposite” is woolly-headed.
It's a good first step... at least if you assume anything the government say is a lie in detail you'll be correct over 50% of the time** and under Boris probably over 90% of the time and that was only when he was wrong and told the truth by mistake.
**if you include the reasons they give**
It’s the same logic leap we see when people go from ‘self-serving Big Pharma’ to vaccination denial.
Not really, that's what happens when people questioning the lies end up in echo chambers.
You'd need to be pretty daft to think the REASONS certain companies were given contracts for vaccines or PPE and others not were true when evidence is all available to see. (or Ferry companies with no ferries or....)
Truth: We need PPE ... (partial truth but honest we need ventilators)
Lie: My mates company who is giving me a cut and never made either indeed doesn't actually exist yet is the best company to make PPE/ventilators
Truth: A national emergency thing could be useful
Reality ... ???
Hang on.
How on Earth can it cost £5M to instruct four service providers to broadcast a message using pre-existing technology (one of whom didn’t even manage it?)
I'm sure the £5M is a loss leader .. at least they will be expecting to run this annually after being paid to make some modifications. £5M is an amount they would easily spend on the RFP and hospitality.
There will have been 4-5 companies responded to the RFP (Infosys/WiPro/IBM/HP/TCS) all who already do support for the telecoms companies. The RFP response will be a wonderful story about how they can run this in the future and the test will be if they continue on a more lucrative contract.
It's going to used to alert people to high winds, brush fires and flooding events.
It will be a somewhat useful way to engage some folks who may need to know about a local event that's another channel other than local radio, or the local news telly after the main news, given that the majority of the population have access to a smart phone. It'll will make a noise, and you can read a message, and choose to pay attention to it, or not, you may not even need to move your arse off the sofa.
That's the start middle and finish of it.
Not really, that’s what happens when people questioning the lies end up in echo chambers.
Ah, got it. Your conspiracy theories are fine, it's everyone else's conspiracy theories that are crazy. Makes you think.
You’d need to be pretty daft to think the REASONS certain companies were given contracts for vaccines or PPE and others not were true when evidence is all available to see. (or Ferry companies with no ferries or….)
But this is exactly the point I was making. The reasons (and also the REASONS) may well be hopelessly corrupt. But the error is in the conclusions you are drawing from that. If Boris rolled out the AZ vaccine for no other reason than he's besties with their CEO, does that suddenly mean that the vaccine doesn't work?
I grant you, the odds are in your favour given track records. But is it not wiser to be sceptical rather than just contrary?
Is it that their populations are smarter or their governments are more competent?
Mumble mumble, British exceptionalism, mumble mumble
Truth: A national emergency thing could be useful
Reality … ???
A handful of "real world" UK emergency examples that are rubbish.
Broadmoor's sirens, needed testing weekly, obnoxiously loud, didn't actually tell you what to do, what to look out for, or anything useful, just a bloody loud siren that you could hear across a chunk of Berkshire, Hampshire and Surrey. Now decommissioned IIRC.
AWE, there's vague guidance issued locally if you live in the exclusion zone (which covers the M4, western Reading, and quite a large area of countryside) about watching TV/radio for guidance, but nothing to tell you that somethings gone wrong in the first place.
Teesside (Wilton, Billingham), even working there I couldn't tell the difference between the cyanide siren, the remain in place siren and the GTFO siren. And that's for a site that's surrounded by a fairly large population.
Replacing all three with a system that sends out a 'text' saying "please stay where you are and close the windows" is clearly a much better option than maintaining the existing systems which aren't fit for purpose. Even if only 99% of the population have a phone on a 4G network, it's probably 98% more than would do the right thing in response to the exiting alarms.
Ah, got it. Your conspiracy theories are fine, it’s everyone else’s conspiracy theories that are crazy. Makes you think.
Sounds like something Slartibartfast would say to Arthur... or the Vogons when he complains he didn't see the planning to demolish earth... or his council
“But the plans were on display…”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”
You seem to be saying be sceptical perhaps but suggesting it was "in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard" was deliberate to prevent people seeing it is a conspiracy?
I grant you, the odds are in your favour given track records. But is it not wiser to be sceptical rather than just contrary?
Based off track records it seems far more sensible to assume all politicians lie for their personal gain or survival until proven otherwise. Pretty much no politician of any party will make a second term if they don't cheat and lie.
Some are worse than others but ultimately if people still vote for them anyway there are no reasons not to and plenty of reasons to tow a line or make deals. There seems to be little or no consequence to just lying and if you get found out later it's too late and if we find the planning application in the locked filing cabinet after finding the previous 100 in equally improbable places I should just give them the benefit of the doubt again and again???
But the error is in the conclusions you are drawing from that. If Boris rolled out the AZ vaccine for no other reason than he’s besties with their CEO, does that suddenly mean that the vaccine doesn’t work?
Once again you are missing the detail in terms of "does not work", that's a different question to "did the UK make the worlds best vaccine because of Brexit".
Do you remember the lies rolled about about EU vaccine participation ... "we didn't get the email" etc. (presumably found eventually in the locked filing cabinet with the sign on the door) why has the UK got less vaccines than the European Medical Agency?
https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/human-regulatory/overview/public-health-threats/coronavirus-disease-covid-19/treatments-vaccines/covid-19-vaccines
You are thinking in terms of "does it save lives"... the government didn't and don't care if it saved lives and quite happily falsified data on multiple occasions and just plain lied because it was more important to give contracts to mates than save lives.
Boris said he'd prefer seeing bodies stacked in their 1000's.. Hancock didn't think twice before falsifying figures... indeed his WhatApp seemed to indicate he was really happy they were sending out unused pharmaceuticals they could then claim were used to falsify data.
They and I can only assume the rest of the cabinet knew they were sending people to die in care homes... they didn't even care and hid the statistics from care homes until they got exposed (what was it column B?).
Rather than "does it work" are "the UK developed vaccines that were only possible because of Brexit are so much better" (save more lives) than say the list of vaccines the European Medicines Agency has and how would you know when the lie and falsify data?
It might be better in some ways? ... who knows ? in terms of a stopped clock being exactly correct twice a day and only the word of liars of what was given where when their whatsapp shows they were cooking the figures? If our Brexit Vaccines are so much better than the others (saves more lives, less side effects, suitable for everyone) why does the EMA license the much larger list?
What I do know is the government would rather give work to their mates if it kills thousands or tens of thousands and if it works or not is immaterial to them compared to giving their mates contracts.
If you think that is a conspiracy then I think that's naive given what we know was said in meetings and whatsapp.
A handful of “real world” UK emergency examples that are rubbish.
Broadmoor’s sirens, needed testing weekly, obnoxiously loud, didn’t actually tell you what to do, what to look out for, or anything useful, just a bloody loud siren that you could hear across a chunk of Berkshire, Hampshire and Surrey. Now decommissioned IIRC.
So what was the process for Broadmoor sirens? Did they call a call centre in India that then put them on hold whilst they check who can authorise the use and then 1/2d later set them off?
OR ... and this seems more likely the warden and several members of staff could trigger it.
Teesside (Wilton, Billingham), even working there I couldn’t tell the difference between the cyanide siren, the remain in place siren and the GTFO siren. And that’s for a site that’s surrounded by a fairly large population.
Same question? Who triggers the alarm, what's the process and how long does it take.
It's a tone and a message that you can ignore if you want. Crickey what a thing to get hufty about. You really do struggle don't you.
Poly
TJ – its interesting that you think it will be misused, so turned it off. I actually expect it will be underused, precisely because the speed of decision making on when to use it and what to send will make incident commanders unsure what do to for fear of being criticised they have invaded everyone’s living rooms or used badly worded messaging.
The two are the same thing at the end of the day along with the timing and accuracy of the messaging.
So what was the process for Broadmoor sirens? Did they call a call centre in India that then put them on hold whilst they check who can authorise the use and then 1/2d later set them off?
Well I can't really argue with made up shit can I?
However if you want me to hypothesize and make up an answer then I would say the control room gets the alarm to say cyanide / WolfMan has escaped, and follows a pre-prepared set of instructions, probably involving phoning 999, and I'd assume that either the police/fire call center commander or the incident commander would then have their own pre-written set of instructions giving them the authority to send the message to a pre-determined set of phone masts in the local area.
I'd guess maybe 5 minutes to do all that if someone takes a tea brake halfway through and has to take time considering what biscuits to have?
I'm guessing the system is slightly more complex and automated than phoning up Vodafone customer services, pressing 7 for critical emergencies and being put on hold.
Well I can’t really argue with made up shit can I?
However if you want me to hypothesize and make up an answer then I would say the control room gets the alarm to say cyanide / WolfMan has escaped, and follows a pre-prepared set of instructions, probably involving phoning 999, and I’d assume that either the police/fire call center commander or the incident commander would then have their own pre-written set of instructions giving them the authority to send the message to a pre-determined set of phone masts in the local area.
I'm asking about the old process... if it involves jobs like "incident commander" or phoning 999 its already irrelevant.
Leak of methyl isocyanate .. do you phone 999 and explain to someone with an IQ of <10 you need an alert or hit the big red button? (or option 3 and not say anything and spray some water over the leak)
would then have their own pre-written set of instructions giving them the authority
Already lost... authority NEEDS to be given at the sharp end not some political post.
Imagine you are pumping gas to a platform that you can clearly see is burning down? Do you continue (because you don't have the authority to stop) or take the call and shut off the gas?
Imagine you know the blow out preventer is not working and you continue anyway because you phoned the person with authority to stop drilling and they were busy taking their daughter to ballet?
I can hear the conversation now...
Which service do you require...
Emergency response
Can I take your name
Joe Blogs
Can you give me the what 3 words
No
I'm sorry I can't connect you unless you download the app
I have a 10 figure grid reference and postcode
I'm sorry I can't connect you unless you download the app
I just need an emergency alert sending out before people die
If you won't download the app I can't connect you
OK OK its here bike wheel chain
OK thank you is this the correct number they can call you back on?
What do you mean call back this is an emergency
Yes I'm sure it is but can you confirm the number
Yes.. that's correct
OK, thank you our incident commander will contact you in the next 24 hours ... is there anything else I can help you with today?
I’m asking about the old process… if it involves jobs like “incident commander” or phoning 999 its already irrelevant.
Why?
I can hear the conversation now…
Well clearly you can't, because all that would have been covered by the OSEP for the DEPZ as identified by the operator, LA and CA as part of their compliance with COMAH regulations (everyone loves an acronym).