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John Crace, excellent as usual.
It's all a bit 'Honest and Dishonest Guard' riddle isn't it?
https://riddlesbrainteasers.com/honest-dishonest-guards/
We know Dom's a liar so we can't trust what he says. But we know Boris is also a liar. But they're saying different things so they can't both be lying.
"Boris, what would Dominic say if he was asked about your bodies piled high statement"
I don’t think a Corbyn government would have done any better. They were no better prepared or skilled to deal with a pandemic
But, and this is THE but, both Joris and Maybot before him were warned that something was coming. The (conservative) govt. had also been warned that they were woefully unprepared. AND THEY DID EFF ALL ABOUT IT.
Exercise Cygnus
(And yes, for the hairsplitters I know they weren’t simulating exactly the same thing, but I hope the point is made.)
Agree that an earlier lockdown and closing borders would have been a good idea but there would still have been a huge backlash against that.
And that’s where a competent and well organised government comes in, run by a leader that has the best interests of the country at heart and would have been able to convince the public that it was the best plan(based on evidence from other countries) to go for immediate and very intense restrictions .
As said above,this bunch of clowns squandered all our advance warning time.
And yes, for the hairsplitters I know they weren’t simulating exactly the same thing, but I hope the point is made
There was an analogy ages back. If the fire inspectors came round and saw your fire exits were locked they'd tell you to unlock them.
If subsequently your factory had a gas leak and no-one could escape because your exits were blocked the HSE wouldn't be giving you an easier ride because you hadn't planned for that exact scenario.
There was a woeful lack of preparation exposed by Cygnus and claiming that that was a Flu sim and this was different is totally irrelevant.
John Crace, excellent as usual.
"On balance, it felt as if some light had crept through the cracks. The families of the bereaved deserved better than truths carved out of a desire to settle some personal scores."
Enquiry. Now. The excuse that we should be "getting on with the recovery from Covid" is utterly bogus... this pandemic could well have further twists and turns to it yet, and we need to avoid further government missteps of the kind we have had to watch from the sidelines, open mouthed in disbelief, over the last 18 months.
Cummings = Vicky Pollard
The excuse that we should be “getting on with the recovery from Covid” is utterly bogus
Someone noted this morning on Radio 4 that they're quite happy to crack on with gerrymandering political boundaries, voter ID and all manner of other things that are nothing to do with 'recovering from a pandemic' yet suit their own ends, but apparently they can't fit in a public inquiry
Someone noted this morning on Radio 4 that they’re quite happy to crack on with gerrymandering political boundaries, voter ID and all manner of other things that are nothing to do with ‘recovering from a pandemic’ yet suit their own ends, but apparently they can’t fit in a public inquiry
Self serving and contradictory hypocrisy from the government - surely not?
We know Dom’s a liar so we can’t trust what he says. But we know Boris is also a liar. But they’re saying different things so they can’t both be lying.
They could both be lying in slightly different ways.
There does seem to be the central office defence trying the "left now believe everything he says" line which a)is rubbish and b)skips over their fanatical defence of him last year.
Anyone watch any of the Hancock love in session? Superb how many tory MPs now think Cummings is the worse thing ever.
Bonus points to the one who printed out their Barnard Castle eye test as a background but somehow forgot to mention that when sending the defence of him emails last year.
Wonder if Hancock was feeling relieved about their moronic support or, rightly, knew it could be as quickly removed on orders as Cummings support was.
Poor little Matty. Not very bright, is he?
Even now Dom and pointed it out in words of less than 2 syllables he still doesn't realise he's been the fall guy from day 1, and Boris is only keeping him around as a blame sponge to be thrown to the wolves when the public inquiry happens
And that’s where a competent and well organised government comes in, run by a leader that has the best interests of the country at heart and would have been able to convince the public that it was the best plan(based on evidence from other countries) to go for immediate and very intense restrictions .
I am sort of assuming you are north of the border fasthaggis?
We see this in Scotland. Holyroods limited powers meant some things the scottish government wanted to do they were not able and some of the same mistakes have been made north of the border but I have confidence Sturgeon and co are attempting to make the right decisions for the right reasons and Sturgeon has apologised for mistakes made. I am sure people are more inclined to follow guidance if they have confidence in their leaders.
It’s all a bit ‘Honest and Dishonest Guard’ riddle isn’t it?
https://riddlesbrainteasers.com/honest-dishonest-guards/
We know Dom’s a liar so we can’t trust what he says. But we know Boris is also a liar. But they’re saying different things so they can’t both be lying.
Hancock got off scot-free in the commons this morning, mostly because Tory MPs when it came down to it, will offer more support to him
Noticed one of them blowing smoke up Hancock's arse was called Willie Wragg. Perfect companion to a Penis Beaker!
We know Dom’s a liar so we can’t trust what he says. But we know Boris is also a liar. But they’re saying different things so they can’t both be lying.
They can when it's not a binary choice.
Noticed one of them blowing smoke up Hancock’s arse was called Willie Wragg. Perfect companion to a Penis Beaker!
His brother (Toe) has been doing very well out of PPE/Testing procurement, apparently....
They can when it’s not a binary choice.
Indeed. It is safer to assume they are both lying as a starting point.
This is what we have come to - unless there is a reliable third party in the room, we will never know the truth.
Excellent logic test/game, funny way to run a country, though....
It is safer to assume they are both lying as a starting point.
The Guardian picks up on that point quite well. It's not very complimentary about DC but it does point out that what he is saying at least matches most of what is already known.
I don’t think a Corbyn government would have done any better. They were no better prepared or skilled to deal with a pandemic.
A couple of points:
A major flu-like pandemic has been one of the major risks on the National Security Strategy for at least a decade. In any large organisation is the role of the executive (the cabinet) to review those risks regularly and ensure that robust mitigation plans are in place. Those plans would be the responsibility of the permanent secretary of the Department of Health and it would be the responsibility of the Minister to ensure they were reviewed and refreshed by the appropriate experts. This is the role for a technocrat not a politician, regardless of hue.
Exercise Cygnus is 2016 revealed that the country was ill-prepared and therefore the role of the executive to ensure that the risk mitigation plan was updated and resourced accordingly. May’s government chose to ignore this as they charged headlong and blindsided by Brexit. It’s not like they weren’t forewarned by SAARS and bird flu.
The lack of preparedness is entirely down to the incompetence of a succession of Tory governments who failed in their duty to ‘lead’. The OP also demonstrates, like a lot of the populace, their complete ignorance as to how the apparatus of government operates; how poorly the people of the UK are being served but depressingly their political loyalties are more akin to the blind faith of football or religion.
So yeah, like I said, I don't think the Corbyn government would have done any better especially as they would have been at the mercy of lack of planning in the previous tory governments so would be no better prepared and unlikely more skilled (you saw the Corbyn cabinet didn't you)
That is not defending or excusing the Johnson government who ****ed it up from the start.
My estimate was too conservative (pun intended), but mashr pretty much called it
https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1397923718597255175
^^^
A country of c***s.
Writ large for all the world to see. Shame on us.
Well that's the black dog back in the room that exists in my head. That poll just says it all. This country is f****d. Why can all the opposition not just get together just once and do something about it? Properly miserable about the whole thing.
^^^
Basically because the electorate (or at least too large a proportion of it) are basically boorish pillocks who keep doubling down on stupidity because they regard changing their minds as a humiliation.
We are ****ed.
Some days I feel like I've slipped into another dimension.
I don’t think a Corbyn government would have done any better. They were no better prepared or skilled to deal with a pandemic
So yeah, like I said, I don’t think the Corbyn government would have done any better especially as they would have been at the mercy of lack of planning in the previous tory governments
We were totally prepared to deal with a pandemic - as a country. We just had a Government - and more particularly a prime minister - that failed to use it effectively. Ultimately all the Governments actions were for the most part, the correct actions - they were obviously the correct action because not only did we already we have a plan for pandemics (we already had a test and trace system for instance - if you'd come home form your travels with a dose of Ebola anyone you'd come into contact with would soon get a call) and we had functioning real-time examples all around the world of (A)- courses of action that were effective and (B)- courses of action that were disastrous -
but Boris's reluctance to the the right thing and cowardice to stand by his decision to do the wrong thing meant we did the right thing weeks and months too late. He did the right thing when he couldn't put it off any longer. By not doing (A) quickly enough we got the results from (B)..... for the price of (A).
The only thing that Corbyn would have had to do differently to have done better would be for his first instinct to be the safety of our citizens.
Jeez, that survey.
Are we all wrong in this echo chamber? Is there something about the Tory government that we're just not getting?
Some days I feel like I’ve slipped into another dimension.
I genuinely don't recognise this country as what I thought it was. I knew there were racists, bigots and gammons around but in no way did I think that there were so many of them that they could keep a corrupt and incompetent Govt. in power. It's a monster that Cummings helped create and it's incredibly worrying that even he cannot change it's course.
The next decade or more is going to be absolute hell.
You're not getting the fact that more people would sell their Granny for a tenner than you realise . . . .
Dog shit and litter strewn land of self entitled Tory voting red top reading ****s.
I'm gonna **** off to France and leave em to it
Oh I can't anymore......
Just look at this thread. We've got a pandemic that has been vastly worse for the poor, and a government that repeatedly have shown to not care and to try to put the economy before public health and yet we get comments that Corbyn wouldn't do any better.
I've had a sinking feeling about this country since 2010 when Nick Clegg played King maker to the nasty party. Ever since then the voting public have kept shooting the country in the foot.
Things can only get, oh hang on...
No one cares. We're on the way out now, no one wants to look back, they want to be on the beach or down the pub with mates, this is just detail. Shady PPE contracts do not effect people's lives (apart from the winners of those contracts) so shrug.
Shown by this thread, less than 5%? of STW users have commented on something which has been played out for months in front of us, I'd imagine that extrapolates to the general public I can't see how you can't have an opinion, but people have to get the kids to school, make dinner, visit granny whatever, they don't have time for the whys and wherefores
The majority of the country (all about me) vote Tory, the rest have their vote split about 4 ways, till they find a way of shifting it to 1:1 they'll be no change and as long as people are able to get a new plate car on finance and have a reasonable disposable income they'll be no reason to change, the folks at the bottom used to have a union, they now have nothing and no hope or reason to think they'll be any change.
I really hope we turn this around in my life time so my kids can see an alternative to the dog eat dog but I can't see it happening
Tbh my children are not old enough to understand this but could you imagine explaining what's gone on in the Government to a bunch of Primary school child each week, great example Bozza, absolute cretin.
Are we all wrong in this echo chamber? Is there something about the Tory government that we’re just not getting?
Basically yes. Or at least try not to accept that something is there.
Theres a lot of wishful "it has to change" thinking too. When clearly it can carry on for bloody ages yet regardless of the consequences.
Comes down to lack of opposition.
Even Cummings has now been more openly critical of the government's actions over the last year than Mr "I support the government" Starmer.
He's lead the labour party into irrelevance.
Are we all wrong in this echo chamber? Is there something about the Tory government that we’re just not getting?
I think it is almost like Stockholm syndrome. Saw some vox pops last night and the people were still happy with the government pandemic handling because "they did a good job in the circumstances", "it was a really difficult thing to deal with" and so on.
They just seem happy to excuse the government for anything they do and keep supporting them. Seems ingrained that the tory party are the best.
Jeez, that survey.
Are we all wrong in this echo chamber? Is there something about the Tory government that we’re just not getting?
Nah.... we’re just ahead of the pack.
People aren’t that interested in politics and the Boris persona is still being bought and the people seem to ignore inconvenient facts that go against their beliefs/desire/fantasies.
There’s a tipping point but at the moment we’re nowhere near it and the opposition hasn’t hired Dom yet.
I think we underestimate the 'never admit you were wrong / fooled' bit. So double down and find reasons to support why you haven't been fooled. Like the folk that get scammed out of their savings but don't report it because the loss of face admitting you were scammed is worse than the loss of the money.
Which is the opposite of what smart people do - new evidence, new decision.
We were totally prepared to deal with a pandemic – as a country
Operation Cygnes or whatever it was called, and the lack of PPE in date ready to be used might suggest otherwise?
BBC Reality Check this morning looks at some of Cummings claims. The only one that concerns me is "we were told the public wouldn't accept lockdowns" excuse. Sage minutes apparently suggest otherwise. Let's be honest, lots of people, businesses and the Civil Service were 10 days ahead of the government.
Which is the opposite of what smart people do – new evidence, new decision.
Yep...
Man of the people + £800 per roll wallpaper != not man of the people.
Border control + Indian variant + allowing flights from India= Oh dear here we go again.
Sage minutes apparently suggest otherwise. Let’s be honest, lots of people, businesses and the Civil Service were 10 days ahead of the government.
Yep we’d watched the news, the covid figures and the data from wuhan.
I remember sat in the office when we were wondering when the government would do something as the numbers were not looking good,we were working from home a week before government advice.
It was definitely ‘this doesn’t look good situation’and when Italy closed its borders was the chilling realisation for me we were fkd.
dog eat dog
The aim of the tories, now supercharged by the economic idiocy that is Brexit.
The way to stay in power is to rig the whole society as a struggle. That way it is easy to create groups of 'others' for people to hate.
This one lays into the whole political system. Labour supporting everything that the Tories are doing/not doing and a subservient media parroting Tory spin. Thankfully they've moved the reporting on a bit from it being the Dominic Cummings Show to actually looking at the details of what he's talking about.
People get fooled/believe things for any number of reasons; because they feel the same way, because of experience, because they actually believe...
One of the biggest driving factors for this sorry state of affairs is that the media is controlled, and therefore the narrative is controlled, by a few generally pro-Johnson people. Whatever happens in government, however many people get ill or die, they can spin this to support a "They did the best they could" or "man of the people" narrative.
When the media turns against him, things will change. Until that time, the masses will be fed the message and they will believe it.
What kelvin quoted. You can’t make a career out of selling a lie and then have folk believe you when you feel like it. Maybe he should have put a slogan on a bus or something.
Yup, he’s probably in the main (especially where his account is corroborated with published advice and opposition calls at the time) telling the truth, but in terms of votes in future elections… it won’t matter, and he must know that. My assumption is that the pressure he is trying to create is with Conservative MPs, rather than people who have voted Tory recently (off the back of the new “reality” that is a direct result of the “take back control” referendum and the “get Brexit done” election). He is trying to unseat/diminish key Tories (and empower others), not to help get the Conservative party out of government.
Of course, he might want to achieve nothing more than to vent in public about people he’s grown to hate through proximity. It could just be that basic. Ranting about your old boss, and trying to avoid taking the blame for the horrific effects that have resulted from their personal flaws. “Not me guv, you want to have a closer look at those guys”.
He is trying to unseat/diminish key Tories (and empower others), not to help get the Conservative party out of government.
And it was pretty obvious where who thinks the future party leader is and clearly has his eyes on his next position
It's tragic. This countries politics is now some kind of dysfunctional medieval court occupied entirely by a narrow caste. More Game of Thrones than a 21st century democracy
I actually having thought about it for while think Dom is just an anarchist.
He joined vote leave that was set up to smash the system. No after trying to break it from the inside he's trying to bring it down from the outside.
You know what I don't understand? How we've become so complacent.
Fifty years ago there was the Profumo Affair. The secretary of state had an affair with a young model and it was sufficient to bring down the government. Fast-forward to a few years ago, it came out that our then-current PM had (allegedly) stuck Little Dave in the mouth of a dead pig and the country gave a gallic shrug and went 'yeah, sounds about right'. That, really, was the point where it should have been obvious we were screwed.
The opposition parties are both seemingly permanently tainted over similarly one-off failings. Can't vote Labour (yes but Iraq War) and can't vote Liberal (yes but Tuition Fees).
We've been screaming about 'democracy' for the last five years.
And now we've got this malevolent mendacious machiavellian maniac spewing his guts about all the lies, incompetence and deceit that those we've entrusted to look after us have been feeding us for years. The very dismantling of democracy. Time was, this would've driven people onto the streets with milk bottles, a canister of four star and an oily rag. Instead we're looking up what time Lip Sync Battle starts.
the masses will be fed the message and they will believe it.
I'm reading about propaganda use before and during WW1- WW2 from both a allied and axis perspective, and the message that comes across time and time again, from both sides and from various sources is; They simply cannot believe how massively influential and successful it is, regardless of however dumbed down, overtly racist, or simply untrue their message is.
It's really depressing. Even one of the most successful American WW1 propagandists (a journalist called Creel) noted that this raised serious questions about the viability and vulnerability of democracy and democratic systems, and this was 100 years ago.
The electorate give the the government they voted for an easy ride. Simple as that.
It's takes time to turn the tide.
A focus on competence becomes a distraction. The real shit show is an ailing market driven economy. This is where you get the beliefs we've got.
Ideology comes first then competence. That's a hard sell on an electorate that thinks politicians are all the same and see things through a narrow window.
Cummings is still a market libertarian all said and done.
You know what I don’t understand? How we’ve become so complacent.
I was taught to care by my parents. Their experiences, surprisingly, made them Tories, so I was by nature and nurture centre right at least.
But because I was taught to be interested I researched and questioned and took notice of what I saw going on around me, and I discovered that centre left is actually my "right" position.
Not sure how we teach independent thought to the masses though.
Comes down to lack of opposition.
Even Cummings has now been more openly critical of the government’s actions over the last year than Mr “I support the government” Starmer.
He’s lead the labour party into irrelevance.
^^Yup,I have said before, over this last year there were so many open goals missed/ignored by Labour.
It's as if they didn't want the gig,and are now waiting until after the fire sale so they can be asked to clean up the nasty mess ..
It’s as if they didn’t want the gig,and are now waiting until after the fire sale so they can be asked to clean up the nasty mess ..
I've been saying this for a few years now also. Would you want the gig in the current climate? I wouldn't.
I have said before, over this last year there were so many open goals missed/ignored by Labour.
I'm pretty sure this was the same with Corbyn too, there were any number of times where the government had fluffed something massively but at PMQ, to quote Binners, he'd be talking about bus timetables instead.
I have to say that I watched Question Time last night and saw Emily Thornberry on, who's normally a Rottweiller. She normally does a great line in absolutely cutting sarcasm. I was then completely mystified as she conspicuously failed to deliver any killer blows and basically allowed Grant Shapps to roll over while she tickled his tummy
Point of order, and it's an important one, the affair did not nearly bring down the government, or even get Profumo to resign.
The secretary of state had an affair with a young model and it was sufficient to bring down the government.
Profumo had to go because he was caught lying to parliament (and some dodgy links via Keeler to a potential Russian agent, and it was Profumo or the government so Profumo had to go.
In the current situation the best chance of getting Johnson out is if it's proved he lied to parliament, i.e. bodies piling up. It's like getting Capone on tax charges not for being a mob boss, but it's still effective.
Not sure how we teach independent thought to the masses though.
Shouldn't be too hard. Just teach a basic module on political philosophy to kids. You really don't need to learn much.
Democracy doesn't work when so many are in poverty and so many are uneducated/uninformed. It is playing out very well for the tories.
Thankfully they’ve moved the reporting on a bit from it being the Dominic Cummings Show to actually looking at the details of what he’s talking about.
The issue is that the vast majority of the population won't read those stories. We have to wait:
When the media turns against him, things will change. Until that time, the masses will be fed the message and they will believe it.
Looking at the whole setup with Tory donors in the media and business with what they are trying to gain it could be a very long wait.
Shouldn’t be too hard. Just teach a basic module on political philosophy to kids. You really don’t need to learn much.
And that's the dproblem. To do that, you need money and time to teach kids this, which are both in the hands of the ruling party, which don't want to upset the status quo. The same thing with AV/PR, or boundaries, or...
A party with a majority will never vote for anything that diminishes its ability to remain in power. Why would it?
In the current situation the best chance of getting Johnson out is if it’s proved he lied to parliament, i.e. bodies piling up. It’s like getting Capone on tax charges not for being a mob boss, but it’s still effective.
Most things that most of the Cabinet have said over the last couple of years have been provable lies. We're way past the time that lying meant resigning, the idea that somehow the MP has done something to besmirch the " Right Honourable" part of their title.
BJ went past lying to Parliament and lied to the Queen!
He's been sacked from two jobs for lying.
Provable lies to Parliament would be met with the same shrug of the shoulders as everything else he's done. He's "just being Boris", it's what he's like, it's just the way he works, he means well, isn't the vaccine rollout going well, look at that dead cat... Blah blah.
You know what I don’t understand? How we’ve become so complacent.
...
We’ve been screaming about ‘democracy’ for the last five years.
...
Time was, this would’ve driven people onto the streets with milk bottles, a canister of four star and an oily rag. Instead we’re looking up what time Lip Sync Battle starts.
I use my SIL as a barometer for this. I think you've massively overestimated the general populations level of interest. She's by no means the least interested in the country and votes entirely on her own self-interest, personalities, family history etc rather than policy or future commitments. She believes that if she is successful in life, everyone else can be successful and that they should just try harder.
Just teach a basic module on political philosophy to kids.
Then you too can have regular riots down les Champs, occupied airport construction sites until the stupid project is abandonned, sobotaged toll barriers, heaps of manure in front of the town hall, tractors blocking the ring road and (God forbid) properly social democratics candidates in elections (as well as the neo right and extreme nutjobs you'll find everywhere). Great innit.
But seriously, I absolutely agree, Molgrips, it's one of the things that strikes me most when talking to young people in Germany, France and the UK, philosophy in school is ace.
Amongst other things I used to run a General Studies programme in a comprehensive school getting speakers from animal rights, Countryside Alliance, F o I, Palestinians, the occasional politician, ex chair of the Arts Council, a few academics, an ex-coke dealer, ex Chair of the Bar Council. Our centre's papers were used as exemplars at the exam board. Killed off by the Tories.
Citizenship was another vehicle for stirring up an understanding of politics. Killed off by the Tories.
Time was, this would’ve driven people onto the streets with milk bottles, a canister of four star and an oily rag. Instead we’re looking up what time Lip Sync Battle starts.
panem et circenses
panem et circenses
Don't be juvenal
Don’t be juvenal
👏👏👏
She believes that if she is successful in life, everyone else can be successful and that they should just try harder.
I know a few tories at work who think exactly that. When you give them reasons why some people may be a bit hampered on being successful and they have been successful mainly down to luck they quickly lose interest.
panem et circenses
Don’t be juvenal
Who said satire was dead?
[ hats off to you for that one Mefty ]
Amongst other things I used to run a General Studies programme in a comprehensive school getting speakers from animal rights, Countryside Alliance, F o I, Palestinians, the occasional politician, ex chair of the Arts Council, a few academics, an ex-coke dealer, ex Chair of the Bar Council. Our centre’s papers were used as exemplars at the exam board. Killed off by the Tories.
Citizenship was another vehicle for stirring up an understanding of politics. Killed off by the Tories.
Looking back at my school time, *cough* years ago, one of the more useful subjects was O-level history. We were taught to look for biases in the historical sources, to think about what you don't know as much as what you do know, etc, etc. Applying those same filters to contemporary sources is something that I do every day...
The Tories, of course, continually apply pressure to make the history syllabus all about memorising dates. I can't for the life of me think why that would be. :-/
I see Johnsons advisor on the ministerial code has said he didnt break the minsterial code, because he didnt know that someone else had paid his decorating bill.
I always get other people to pay for my 200K flat refurbishments but dont worry about who
Tho Hancock did break the ministerial code, but only a little bit, so thats fine
I think we all knew that Johnson would end up being exonerated, wouldnt do to have sitting PM exposed as corrupt, wouldnt do at all!
Then you too can have regular riots down les Champs
..and you can have an electorate that is prepared to change the government radically when it thinks it's needed, and a system that can provide it. I didn't know philosophy was on the curriculum in France - interesting.
I see Johnsons advisor on the ministerial code has said he didnt break the minsterial code, because he didnt know that someone else had paid his decorating bill.
I always get other people to pay for my 200K flat refurbishments but dont worry about who
In Johnson's defence (wow, never knew that would ever happen) he is not in the same world as you or me where we are concerned about spend on decorating whereas he just assumes it is done somehow but not a property he owns and one he is just staying in for a few years with costs covered etc,. so probably not really paying much attention to it. Plus he was clearly too busy saving lives.
Very good Mefty 😀
LOL
+1 For Johnathon Pie.
Political satire these days is more depressing than funny.
Welcome to apathy. 🙁