[Closed] Dogs - sheep worrying

Read 'A shepherds life' to get an entirely understandable view of how a shepherd feels about retarded dog owners that can't control their dogs.

Unfortunately it'd be the dog that gets shot, not the idiot.

I assume the dog owner found the farmer and offered to pay for the dead sheep?

Farmers up my way can shoot a dog who hassles sheep.

Did the owner go find the farmer and offer to pay for the lost ewe and any cost of putting that lamb on milk formula if still needed?

Lucky you saw it and not the farmer. Or a policeman. Or one of the farming Mumsnetters, been a couple of threads about this over there already this year.

Sadly this is the kind of ignorant behaviour that holds back right to roam legislation. Though I'd be interested whether such attacks have increased north of the border since their access rights were brought in, I suspect not. Idiots will be idiots regardless of the law.

Did you get his details? He needs to be paying up for his failure to control his animals.

The owner was clearly shocked

By a dog going against every natural instinct it possesses to chase a sheep? I'm gob-smacked myself. who'd have thought such a thing would ever take place?

Farmers should start putting signs up to warn unsuspecting dog owners about that type of thing happening

Sounds like a very sad accident really, rather than stupidity if a dog had slipped its collar.

But I agree that the owner should try to find the owner, but if the fields near us are anything to go by, I have no idea how to contact the farmer as the fields aren't attached to a farmhouse.

Read 'A shepherds life' to get an entirely understandable view of how a shepherd feels about retarded dog owners that can't control their dogs.

We've got a dozey lurcher that we think is part deerhound. Absolutely never let him off the lead near sheep as he is unable to not chase them. It's in his genes.
I agree with the sentiment that it is the owners who are 100% responsible for their dogs.
I was appalled to meet a professional dog walker in lady cannings plantation a few months ago who was bemoaning the fencing off of houndkirk moor to allow livestock on there. The arrogant Arse seemed to think that if one of his dogs killed a sheep he'd just cough up the £55 market value of the animal and then the farmer had no more cause for complaint.
Dog ownership is taken far too lightly by a lot of people in my opinion (and I may be guilty of that too- before anyone suggests it)

[quote=MoreCashThanDash ] Though I'd be interested whether such attacks have increased north of the border since their access rights were brought in, I suspect not. Idiots will be idiots regardless of the law.It's as well to remember the Land Reform (Scotland) Act only really codified what was already happening under the old laws - so there really wasn't much change. I've not heard anyone suggest that the LR(S)A has had a direct impact though it does seem to be that more folk have dogs these days.

FWIW, one shepherd in the Pentland Hills carries a laminated copy of a section of the Countryside (Scotland) Act 1967 in his pocket. That's what he hands to the owners of the dogs he has shot.

binners - Member
By a dog going against every natural instinct it possesses to chase a sheep?

"oh but he never usally does that" 🙄

Sounds like an overreaction by the sheep. The last time I was worried about something I didn't run into a river. Daft ****.

ernie_lynch - Member

Sounds like an overreaction by the sheep. The last time I was worried about something I didn't run into a river. Daft ****.

Typical STW victim blaming!

MoreCashThanDash » Though I'd be interested whether such attacks have increased north of the border since their access rights were brought in, I suspect not. Idiots will be idiots regardless of the law.

To add to what Druidh says above, I can't think of an area up here that has the sheer amount of people wandering the hills amongst grazing animals, certainly nowhere near the levels in the lakes or peaks. Means that obviously there are going to be far more chances of such unfortunate situations.

Binners - I'd disagree, if anyone who has a dog is not intelligent enough to realise this, then hell mend them. It's common sense, and you can't put that on a sign.

Why hadn't the farmer taught his sheep how to swim?

He's only himself to blame

Sounds like an overreaction by the sheep. The last time I was worried about something I didn't run into a river. Daft ****.

Thankfully not much in the UK is trying to kill us.

Why hadn't the farmer taught his sheep how to swim?

he had, but you try swimming in a woolly jumper.

You might run into the water when being chased by a giant set of suicide bombers that are trying to own you

Are the suicide bombers also immigrants?!?

You might run into the water when being chased by a set of suicide bombers that are trying to own you

But i can swim, so sounds like a reasonable strategy to me?

And further to my comment above, there are inconsiderate dog owners. Being very new to dog ownership I have seen it already but thankfully the vast majority of owners seem very good.

But our experience in Saturday....

Walking our 15 week old puppy and a much bigger dog (bull terrier type of dog) comes bounding over. The owner has no lead for the dog but says 'don't worry, she's fine'. We allow them to meet each other but our puppy is clearly scared - not the usual subversive reaction we'd seen before but whimpering and really trying to get away but she couldn't as the dog just kept coming at her as we tried to walk her away. Eventually my 6 year old daughter picks our puppy up so the other dog then starts to jump up too. The owner still saying 'don't worry, don't worry'. Eventually he makes a half-assed attempt to kick it away and it briefly does, then comes back again, almost knocking my daughter off her feet and by this point she is crying. At this point I take over and get the puppy, holding her high up to my chest, the other dog still following us, bounding around and jumping up. At this point our puppy wees herself (all over me - this is the first time she has ever done that).

At no point was the other dog visibly aggressive, but what annoyed me was the owners attitude - no lead, no real attempt to stop his dog. When he finally held it back I made it clear that it wasn't acceptable – a six year old child and a puppy can't accept his claim of it being a friendly dog.

Thankfully we haven't met any other selfish owners like that yet.

he had, but you try swimming in a woolly jumper

She should of changed into some pyjamas.

I do hope the OP passed the dog owner's car Reg to the police.

So have you contacted the farmer and explained what happened and passed on the details of the irresponsible dog owner? The farmer is out of pocket thanks to this cockwomble.

[quote=johndoh ]Thankfully we haven't met any other selfish owners like that yet.You don't get out much then? I meet them all the time. It doesn't fret me much as I like dogs - but the dog owners don't know that.

.Are the suicide bombers also immigrants?!?

Depends if they came from a grey import mail order specialist or from an LBS through the official importer I guess. 🙂

Please report this to the police, and the farmer which your parents should be able to contact. There might still be time to save the lamb but the dog owner needs to be prosecuted and compensate the farmer.

OP: have you reported the incident with car reg number & description of the dog/owner?

Thankfully we haven't met any other selfish owners like that yet.

I don't think its selfishness a lot of the time. Its more this bizarre, inexplicable attitude that says 'I love my dog, therefore everyone else must too'

Its like Father Jack with his brick....

You don't get out much then? I meet them all the time. It doesn't fret me much as I like dogs - but the dog owners don't know that.

I think it's fairly clear no reporting of the event has taken place.

Even in my own friendship group I know people with dogs who clearly shouldn't have them.

May as well ask in case anyone actually knows the answer.

I don't have a gun but I do have sheep.

What is legally allowed to stop a dog mid attack on one of my sheep? We have had one close call when a dog escaped from a neighbouring house but the electric fence stopped it.

I have caught a husky killing a pregnant ewe on a friend's farm and as the husky had done it before and knew it was in trouble it went into a submissive state and we grabbed it and lobbed it in the back of the pickup. We then handed it over to the police as once caught we have no justification to do anything else.

But if it happens and the dog cannot be safely caught and restrained without further damage to livestock or myself?

Moron with asthma lets dog kill sheep. Shoot the wheezing idiot and keep the dog on a lead.

You have the right to use 'reasonable steps' to stop the attack. These include using firearms if no other means are available. You also have a responsibility to deal with the dog humanely. Which means you can't just run it over with your quadbike.

If an uncontrolled dog is running amok, and can't be chased off, without a gun (and the ability to use it accurately), you'd basically just have to wait for the dog to stop.

andyl - I don't know where you live but here in Scotland a farmer can shoot a dog attacking sheep, we have big signs up warning about it, but still people don't understand. It's such a big problem on the outskirts of Edinburgh the police patrol the hills on quad bikes at lambing time. There have still been a large number of attacks and sheep deaths already this year though.

You really need to find out for yourself. I'd argue the dog owners should be shot rather than the dog which is following it's natural killing instincts though. Generally a farmer will aim to capture the dog if possible and the police will impound it. The police will then take over, I think the minimum action is a fine and warning, if sheep have been injured or killed it would probably result in dog being destroyed and owner prosecuted.

I've seen 'Dogs found amongst sheep will be shot' signs up in the hills near me whilst out riding, not sure on the legality, but sheep can often have miscarrages when prgnant if chased by dogs, so I wouldnt be supprised if farmers are allowed to 'off' any dogs running uncontrolled.

Near me I've seen a warning notice with a pic of a dead sheep, one of the farmer's. It includes the prospect of the dog being shot.

I suspect many dogs can't read and their owners don't bother to.

As I understand it, farmers can legally shoot dogs if they are worrying sheep.

To be fair, you can legally shoot people who are attacking you as well, so it seems only reasonable.

A couple of local farmers have quite graphic pictures of dead sheep on posters warning that they will shoot dogs. The pictures should get the attention of even the most stupid dog owner. If the poster fails, I would suggest the second barrel may focus their minds.

I know the farmer near where my parents live has shot many dogs. His land is near a lake and many take their dog for a swim as its near the village. He has lost so many sheep due to stupid dog owners so just shoots the dog and asks questions later.
He's actually a nice guy but is fed up. I always walked my dog on a lead over his land (a footpath crosses) as per the sign asking that dogs should not be allowed to run free by livestock and never got bother. Just a chat about the weather.

I'm not sure of the law when it comes to cattle. We were taught that land containing mothers with calves, again the dogs should be on a lead.

Just as an extra piece of info. if you have a dog and it poos on farm land, or land with livestick grazing, please pick it up. Dog mess is dangerous to farm animals if digested. Again I've seen many signs around the Peak District left by farmers, with disregard from the dog walkers.

The piece of law I referred to earlier allows a Shepherd to shoot a dog if it is not in "close control". Any more than a few feet away and it is fair game.

Oh and always take a dog [b]off[/b] the lead if crossing a field full of cattle.

When cows are with with calves and feel threatened, the very last thing some dog owners do is pick up their pooch. If they'd let it go, the cows maybe wouldn't get close to it.

Thanks for clarifying.

Round here a few dog owners have been killed for not letting their dogs 'go'.

I need to check this out with our local Police really as they may suggest (and support) me applying for a firearms licence and getting a shotgun. It is something on the increase and there has been a few lambs killed locally every year for the last few years and I have had to have words with dog owners when out after seeing dogs worrying sheep (not my own).

I don't particularly want to shoot a dog or cause it any harm any other way, nor so I want to have to carry a gun with me everytime I check the sheep as then it will need to be secured in the vehicle if I go anywhere else.

We have signs to put up when the ewes are in lamb as one piece of land we rent has a footpath running through it. It's only really a path that local people use so I don't want to put up a "must be on a lead" sign as the neighbours all seem to be sensible (some have sheep) and so far pick up their dogs poo. But if I had land with much more general public then i would put up sign insisting that all dogs are on leads and all poo is picked up. If I was still getting problems I would have no problem in fencing in the path.

Dog poo on grazing and arable land really winds me up.

I've always picked mine up as the cows don't recognise it as a dog, mind if they charge to dog is on its own.

Oh and always take a dog off the lead if crossing a field full of cattle.

Nice idea. My dog's such a coward when it comes to bigger animals that if one approaches her she tries to get between my feet. At least on a lead I can keep her moving rather than just being a trip hazard 😉

Our Old English Sheepdog was allowed to "have a sniff" around some sheep a couple of months ago, completely with the farmers permission as he used to breed sheepdog and had just retired his last one. Wanted to know if she had the natural herding instinct, happy to say she was useless and didn't know what to do so just sat looking at them and bobbing her head to one side.

Whats this about letting the dog off around cattle? We often walk her through a field in which cattle graze on if its not flooded and we often call her back and pop her on the lead. The cattle don't seem to mind at all but we like to keep her close.

Whats this about letting the dog off around cattle? We often walk her through a field in which cattle graze on if its not flooded and we often call her back and pop her on the lead. The cattle don't seem to mind at all but we like to keep her close.

Cows with calves are very protective if you have a dog then even more so. Keeping them off the lead allows you to escape is the theory, not one I've practised as I've either carried the dog kept them on a lead. I've been charged at a few times with and without a dogs, they've sometimes stopped when I've shouted and flung my arms abut. Other times I've darted over the nearest fence. It's a sad fact that people do get killed each year.

http://www.northumberlandgazette.co.uk/news/local-news/woman-killed-by-cow-in-northumberland-1-7852105

Ahh ok so we'll be avoiding that field in the future. Come to think of it, its a major through way for commuters and people walking and I'm not certain if I've ever seen calves there, but I will keep an eye out. Thanks for that info.

The piece of law I referred to earlier allows a Shepherd to shoot a dog if it is not in "close control". Any more than a few feet away and it is fair game.

I seriously doubt that, if a farmer blasted your off the lead dog that was walking 3 or 4 feet from your side. I suspect the farmer would be going to prison. As there isn't a court in the land that would consider that reasonable. Luckily all the farmers I know aren't internet hero's so wouldn't dream of shooting a dog a few feet from its owner.

WRT to the person picking up their puppy and the dog jumping, last thing you should do is pick up the dog; as that makes the puppy more interesting.

Have you gone to any puppy training yet as its well worth it.

When dealing with your new puppy, don't forget its a dog, not a little person so how you think isn't how they think. These books are also worth a read, as you are going to have a dog for a long time and small mistake now can be a PITA to correct:

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/456084.Think_Dog

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12002008-in-defence-of-dogs

In defence of dogs I found very interesting and made a lot of sense to me.

Also if I'm in a field with cattle dog is on the lead, unless the cattle start moving towards me then I let them off.

oh and with regards to shooting - it is not a clear cut case that a dog will be destroyed for killing livestock. The husky we caught was returned to the owners who then had to return it to the breeder. Really not a satisfactory result in this case as there had been a few unexplained dog attacks in the area and the owner had been seen giving the dogs sheep carcasses to gnaw on in the garden...

I don't have any problem with cows but had a situation of being charged by some very wound up cows back in the very wet weather in January. I won't go into the long details but it was one of those situations were I did nothing wrong and was faced with a herd of very angry cows and ended up with the lead cow 2ft from my face as I stood my ground. Could have gone either way but after that they all backed down and we left the way we came instead of pushing the situation any further. I am under no illusions it wasn't a very close call though, seeing a cow so wound up it bucks up with all 4 legs off the ground and heads straight for you tends to fire up the adrenaline.

the owner had been seen giving the dogs sheep carcasses to gnaw on in the garden...

Then that owner was a cock.

I seriously doubt that, if a farmer blasted your off the lead dog that was walking 3 or 4 feet from your side. I suspect the farmer would be going to prison. As there isn't a court in the land that would consider that reasonable. Luckily all the farmers I know aren't internet hero's so wouldn't dream of shooting a dog a few feet from its owner.

Well that's because he didn't mean that he meant the dog could possibly be destroyed as its classed is being not in control. He didn't mean he could open up both barrels there and then.

Any dog must be in close control in a public place - Dangerous Dogs Act. Being off the lead 3-4 feet away from it's owner probably isn't grounds for shooting it. Being 3-4 feet away from it's owner and tearing off towards ewes and lambs probably is.

Tragic for the dog. Should be allowed to kneecap the owners as well.

If an uncontrolled dog is running amok, and can't be chased off, without a gun (and the ability to use it accurately), you'd basically just have to wait for the dog to stop.

I've heard it explained as 'lesser of two evils', even a dog being shot by a shotgun is going to suffer less than a sheep being caught by a dog. Neither's a desirable outcome.

A couple of local farmers have quite graphic pictures of dead sheep on posters warning that they will shoot dogs. The pictures should get the attention of even the most stupid dog owner

Surely a picture of a dead dog [b]walker[/b] would be more attention grabbing.

In for a penny....

Surely a picture of a dead dog would be more attention grabbing.

I should add, I don't want any dogs to be shot, (and I don't want any sheep to be attacked either) but putting a warning of "dogs will be shot" up with a photo of what happens when the dog [i]doesn't[/i] get shot is like putting a "Burglars will be shot" sign up next to a photo of a bloke running away with your TV under his arm.

Blimey - been over a week since I wrote this - really was just to get it down on paper as was on my mind. Anyway to answer questions, yes we did tell farmer who contacted the police who then phoned me. Still waiting for them to arrange a time to make a statement...

good work fella

apocryphal story round where I grew up was if you had a puppy take it Billi Glas' farm and he'd put it in the pen with an old ram who would scare the pup so much it would never worry a sheep ever.

No idea if that ever worked, but seemed to be a bit of welsh valleys farming lore

It's not just inconsiderate idiots with dogs. Some *!#@ down the road having a party on saturday night decided to put on firework display that the American military would be proud of at 10:30. In an area with lots of horses, cows and lambs at a time of year when there is a lot of newly born or still pregnant animals. Scared the crap out of our pregnant ewes who all hid behind the trailer and then I ended up with 4 hrs sleep as I had to keep checking them and sure enough we ended up with one going into labour a week early and me having to pull it out breach. After a shakey couple of days it's now looking a lot better.

Some people either do not think or just do not care about the consequences of their actions.

apocryphal story round where I grew up was if you had a puppy take it Billi Glas' farm and he'd put it in the pen with an old ram who would scare the pup so much it would never worry a sheep ever.
No idea if that ever worked, but seemed to be a bit of welsh valleys farming lore

Heard a similar story from my Nan who lived in the midlands

Riding Arrochar Alps with a mate a few months ago, came to a gate, where a middle aged couple were approaching with a big bouncy dog on other side. We stop to open gate and bloke says 'don't worry about the dog, he'll jump on you but he's friendly 😯

I replied 'don't worry I'll jump on your wife but I'm friendly' ! He wasn't amused but his wife smirked. I didn't jump, neither did the dog... 🙂

Heard a similar story from my Nan who lived in the midlands

Certainly hearing of a lot more cases from our tenants and commoners that we deal with. Not something the farmers want to be doing, they've got enough to do at lambing as it is. They are also very aware of their obligation to report and that it is the owners responsibility to deal with the carcass and compensate for the ewe/lamb.

Some info lifted from the National Sheep Association website.

Fill your boots with info.... http://www.nationalsheep.org.uk/dog-owners/

Some key points highlighted by me

"Staying legal in England and Wales

Here is a summary of the key points of legislation affecting dogs around sheep in England and Wales, to help you feel confident that you and your pet are staying within the law when in farming areas.

Under the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act 1953, if a dog worries sheep on agricultural land, the person in charge of the dog is guilty of an offence. The Act considers sheep worrying to include attacking sheep, chasing them in a way that may cause injury, suffering, abortion or loss of produce or being at large (not on a lead or otherwise under close control) in a field or enclosure in which there are sheep.

The Countryside and Right of Way Act (CROW Act) sets out public rights of access to open land and the restrictions to these rights. Although CROW allows anyone on to open access land (land you can access without having to use paths, including mountains, moorland, heaths, downs and registered common land) for recreation, [b]the Act states that the public can only go on this land if they keep dogs on a fixed lead of 2 metres or less near livestock[/b]. The owner of open access land can close areas containing sheep to dogs for up to six weeks once a year, as a safeguard during lambing. Trained guide and hearing dogs are still allowed in these areas during this closure.

The Countryside Code in England and Wales

The Countryside Code offers advice on walking your dog near livestock, as well as other information on how to enjoy a safe and responsible trip to a rural area in England and Wales. Excerpts from the Countryside Code say: “When you take your dog into the outdoors always ensure it does not disturb wildlife, farm animals, horses or other people by keeping it under effective control … It is always good practice to keep your dog on a lead around farm animals … Keep your dog in sight at all times, be aware of what it’s doing and be confident it will return to you promptly on command … Ensure it does not stray off the path or area where you have a right of access.” The Code also reminds walkers that [b]a farmer ‘may shoot a dog which is attacking or chasing farm animals without being liable to compensate the dog’s owner’[/b].

I'm not sure of the law when it comes to cattle. We were taught that land containing mothers with calves, again the dogs should be on a lead.

My lurcher wont go in a field with cattle unless she's off the lead and can run round the outside of the field as far away from the cattle as posible. Same with horses.

As I understand it, the dog should be on a lead, but if the cattle become agitated and start to stampede towards the owner and their dog then it's advisable to let the dog go, otherwise it's a very real possibility that the owner will get trampled to death by the cattle trying to get at the dog, which they see as a threat to their calves.

My lurcher wont go in a field with cattle unless she's off the lead and can run round the outside of the field as far away from the cattle as posible.

gwaelod - Member
apocryphal story round where I grew up was if you had a puppy take it Billi Glas' farm and he'd put it in the pen with an old ram who would scare the pup so much it would never worry a sheep ever.

No idea if that ever worked, but seemed to be a bit of welsh valleys farming lore

My father used to do that, too. On the Isle of Man BTW.

Yes if your dog won't do what it's told to on lead don't go in the field. The dog isn't meant to be roaming around all over is it? Seen too many out of sight out of mind ones, next to the It's never done that befores...

I grew up on a beef cattle farm, I dont need daft advice from you! Anyone who has to put a dog on a lead to enter a field with cattle shouldnt be going in the field as they are putting themselves in danger. Picking the dogs up is just outright bonkers.

he'd put it in the pen with an old ram who would scare the pup so much it would never worry a sheep ever.

Wonder how many pups were killed?

I grew up on a beef cattle farm, I dont need daft advice from you!

Ooooo, a Farm-off.

So, in a field full of big animals - cows, bulls etc, what's the advice for your dog?

On the lead or off the lead?

Is it any different for horses?

in case of trouble let go of the lead, let the dog run as it will most likely run away. Welshfarmer posted a good link above.

Dog on lead in field, let it go if cattle come after you/dog. Our lab was really good walking to heel but after one or two moments where she "had a look" so from then on it was lead on, as an aside she sememd to have more interest in horses than cattle or sheep.

Issue with our friends dogs is that if two Ridgebacks want to go an average woman can't hold them back

[quote=jambalaya ]Issue with our friends dogs is that if two Ridgebacks want to go an average woman can't hold them backWhich raises the issue of whether an "average woman" can ever be said to be in control of two Ridgebacks.

(substitute gender/breed as appropriate)

For me:

Sheep=lead
Cattle=off lead
Horses= avoid unless I know them.