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If modern day dogs all descended from a single pack of domesticated wolves, what would happen if dogs were left to their own devices - ie human beings were wiped off the planet overnight? Given a long period of time and able to crossbreed freely, would they eventually revert back to something very similar to those original wolves?
Yes. The original wolves and dogs the most closely related to wolves would dominate. The traits of the wolf means it would have a better chance of survival than your average Cockerpoo and in the natural competition for survival they would ultimately win out. However the overall population would be decimated as the food sources wouldn't be able to support the vast numbers of domesticated dogs. Also a lot of highly bred domesticated dog breed have various genetic issues as a result of their genetic engineering which would severely hamper their chances to compete and survive.
The original wolves and dogs the most closely related to wolves would dominate.
Not necessarily true, the landscape in populated areas where dogs would be in the post apocalyptic landscape would be very different so the wolf like dogs may not be best adapted smaller ones for example may find food more easily.
Wonder what breeds survived best in Chernobyl exclusion zones.
I've noticed when you go to places with large numbers of stray dogs that they do tend to be the sort of alsatian/ collie build, fairly short haired. They might actually end up more like modern coyotes than wolves though, if left to their own devices?
They might actually end up more like modern coyotes than wolves though, if left to their own devices?
That was my thought, or maybe behave more like fox species. Impossible to predict really. I would expect if coyotes or wolves were around they would be assimilated into those population.
Isn’t the Australian cattle dog considered how dogs would end up being if left to their own devices?
Isn’t the Australian cattle dog considered how dogs would end up being if left to their own devices?
Doubt it, its a breed, also Australia is different from other places.
They didn’t magically become a breed and teleport to Aus. Closest to not the actual breed themselves.
Look at India for a study of feral dog populations. I’d guess it would follow that kind of pattern in most places. In an apocalyptic scenario my money would be on Border Collies and other intelligent working dogs surviving best. Don’t think they’d revert back to wolf like, at least not in the way we have wolves now.
Good call Funk any big city with feral dogs should give an idea. I doubt they’d be anything like a wolf too far from them now. Unless a wolf or two fancied a poodle.
Chihuahuas.
I suspect the reality is probably a bit less romanticized than you imagine. Assuming humans just vanished, petty much every dog would die within a fortnight. For starters if you just start feeding a dog raw food it'll get the shits and become malnourished both from the dietary change and inability to deal with pathogens, and most dogs wouldn't be able to hunt anyway.
Then you've got food sources, sheep would be abundant, slow and a big meal for days. But their days are numbered, they're not going to evolve back into something useful!
Then I suspect you'd see a variety of breeds, small dogs would still be able to hunt rabbits underground, whippets and greyhound types (and foxes) would still get them on the surface, and bigger dogs wold act more like wolves hunting in packs to go after larger animals like cattle and deer.
Look at India for a study of feral dog populations.
India is india though, with people, lots of them. Its almost impossible to predict what would happen. Little terrier types may survive better in some places for example. Maybe not Chihuahuas though!!!
Chihuahuas
If it's some kind of apocalypse that causes our end, then I reckon Chihuahuas would be rather successful little ****ers due to not having to consume much to stop themselves from starving.
I reckon Chihuahuas would be rather successful little **** due to not having to consume much to stop themselves from starving.
Yeah but I bet a pack of Chihauhuas couldnt out run my lurcher....snack time!!
I'm not convinced 20minutes stood there waiting for me to let her in....
She went out through that gap....
This is an interesting question. I was going to say they would end up like the dogs in India. If as thisisnotaspoon suggests domesticated dogs wouldn’t cope with the change then perhaps the dogs from places with large feral populations would migrate.
In fact, they probably would when they ran out of garbage to feast on.
anagallis, would your lurcher be a match for a pack of chihuahuas once he’d caught up with them? The lurcher may need to use its speed to escape.
Well in the absence of human interference wildlife around Chernobyl has thrived. It’s true that animals most suited and best adapted to the environment will have the best chance but it still remains the case that wolves and dogs very closely related already have the traits to success. Dogs are generalists in survival and not specialists and nature has already designed the best dog....a wolf. So over time and enough generations the wolf form would win out. Their strength is their pack behaviour, they work as a team. Domesticated dog breeds have been bred with other behaviours dominating, they wouldn’t come together in packs, organise themselves into the social groups like wolves and hyena’s do. An organised pack of dogs would decimate a population of individual dogs in no time. Would be an interesting experiment though.
nature has already designed the best dog….a wolf
That's along the line of my original thinking - humans couldn't have done a better job than nature could they? Maybe a handful of similar yet different species would come about at first due to different terrain and climate but with a lot of crossover in locations bordering different regions a dominant species would eventually emerge.
What about African wild dogs are they not the best dog?
feral cats tend to small and black and white shorthairs no matter the mix in the gene pool - because small black and white cats survive best. Big fancy coloured ones die off.
In dogs I suspect a small terrier like dog would do best so thats what the population would tend towards
nature has already designed the best dog….a wolf
I dont think you understand how evolution and speciation work.
anagallis, would your lurcher be a match for a pack of chihuahuas once he’d caught up with them? The lurcher may need to use its speed to escape.
I reckon she could easily out run the rest of the pack whilst carrying one as a snack!!! Joking aside years ago she took off at max velocity after a Chihuahua that was about 200m away as I reckon she thought it was a rabbit, luckily she got up close and realised it was a tiny dog, gave it a sniff and trotted off! I really thought the dog was a gonna for a while.
I dont think you understand how evolution and speciation work.
This.
Lots of very successful Canids out there - wolves don't have enough prey to be successful for several thousand years after the apocalypse in the UK. Chihuahuas however do.
The Fennec Fox is a cute little killing machine
It's an interesting question..
Bigger dogs need a lot more calories, a pack of big dogs needs loads of calories so I'd guess smaller ones may actually win out by scavenging smaller meals solo.
But surely the fact the dogs descended from the pack of wolves then that DNA must still be in them - certain traits that have been kept in the background ready to come forward once again? They aren't going to evolve into foxes?
And the apocolypse only took out humans everything else is fine, plenty of deer, hare and rabbit to eat.
I reckon my Karelian Bear Dog would do pretty well, directly descended from wolves and one of those dogs where you think "if I dropped dead in the house - how long before he got hungry and ate me?"
The Karelian Bear Dog, called Karjalankarhukoira in the breed’s native Finland, is a strong, alert, and fearless breed that is capable of hunting or treeing small-to-large game–even aggressive game such as bears, lynxes, wild boars, wolves, and moose. It makes the list of the top ten most common dog breeds in Finland, where people consider the Karelian Bear Dog a national treasure.
Karelian Bear Dogs were bred to be naturally aggressive to other animals for hunting purposes. For that reason, it takes a good deal of socialization and training to keep them as household companions. Also, they have high energy and exercise requirements.
the apocolypse only took out humans everything else is fine, plenty of deer, hare and rabbit to eat.
That's a very discriminatory apocalypse.
You'd have to assume larger mammals would suffer equally, larger prey like deer would also be decimated so that just leaves things like rats, insects and carrion.
How many rats per day would it take to feed a pack of 10 big dogs? Hundreds I'd guess.
I think the bigger dogs would die out pretty quick and the smaler/medium dogs would eat them once they got weak enough.
But surely the fact the dogs descended from the pack of wolves then that DNA must still be in them – certain traits that have been kept in the background ready to come forward once again? They aren’t going to evolve into foxes?
Interestingly enough, it's only taken since 1959 for the Russians to breed domesticated Foxes that are social creatures.
Presumably it wouldn't be impossible for a psychotic anti-social Chihuahua to be biologically successful in our scenario and then out-breed all the bouncy, sociable dog like individuals.
Even rescues/foxes that haven't been bred for domestication can be remarkably friendly critters. As a family, the Canids are almost up there with Hominidae in terms of versatility.
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Henry our Romanian street dog. Big strong and a hint of German Shepherd/Collie like someone above said may happen when dogs are left to their own devices. I reckon the big dogs would come out on top as the pack instinct is still in them and big and strong would be an advantage.
If nothing else he's ready to use all the bikes that would be left laying about!😂
They aren’t going to evolve into foxes?
Of course not but they could evolve to fill a similar niche.
I reckon the big dogs would come out on top as the pack instinct is still in them and big and strong would be an advantage
Depends on many factors like for example the type and availability of prey.
I reckon spursn17's is pretty close to how they'd evolve - similar to a dingo.
nature has already designed the best dog….a wolf.
That's like saying that lions are the best cats. There are plenty of wild dogs that are successful, but not as 'glamorous' as wolves.
the apocolypse only took out humans everything else is fine, plenty of deer, hare and rabbit to eat.
That’s a very discriminatory apocalypse.
There are plenty of scenarios about disease decimating humans that wouldn't affect animals. And, to be honest, it would take about a week without the internet before kids starved to death, based on the fact that mine can't open a can or start a fire, never mind catch and butcher an actual animal.
Its been done, and dogs don't go back to wolves, they become "pye-dogs" (similar in looks to unmanaged populations of dogs in Africa/India etc.)
This may indicate that they had evolved into that state naturally before domestication, which makes the "wolf ancestors" thing look a bit like overblown canine propaganda.
I think it would take my dog two weeks before he realises I was gone
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My lurcher would never survive, canr even open a beer!!
Surely the fox is evolving into a cat. I can't think of any other dog that can jump up and sit happily on a fence post.
That and the fact that they are obsessed with shitting in flower pots.
Yeah but I bet a pack of Chihauhuas couldnt out run my lurcher
They don't need to. I have 2 chihuahuas and find that most dogs (especially big ones) are scared of them. They don't like other dogs so make a scene as soon as they see them.
All dogs could in theory survive the same so would just come down to who is breeding with who and who is breeding the most. As dogs are pretty stupid in regards to what they will eat then a lot would die out/be seriously ill from eating things that they shouldn't within the first few weeks.
I have 2 chihuahuas and find that most dogs (especially big ones) are scared of them. They don’t like other dogs so make a scene as soon as they see them.
Maybe the bigger dogs are just better trained?
Chihuahuas? Ermm, I don't think so...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-49070562
Gizmo the Chihuahua 'seized and taken away by seagull'
The seagulls will sort out anything smaller than a Labrador ....
The ‘wadi’ dogs in Oman all seemed to be a crossbreed of medium sized dog with Alsatian/ collie features. Pretty much left to their own devices and source food by scavenging or gobbling up stray cats.
Reckon some sorta mongrel breed would thin out the kennel club sorts and in turn create a healthy well adapted breed to whatever opportunity they had to inherit.
but whatever dogs are ace, even mongrel ones.
also that fox was pretty awesome too
I reckon something more like the African wild dogs. They co-exist with larger predators, and have a pack social structure that works to protect the group - including feeding the injured.
....lovely form, lovely buttocks.