[Closed] Dog with no recall strong prey drive.

I guess I ought to add he is a Romanian rescue dog probably about 3 yrs old and has had the chop.

Shock collars are illegal in Wales and (indirectly) illegal Scotland and legislation is being dragged through in England to make them illegal. All for very good reason. That is not your solution.

https://www.bva.co.uk/take-action/our-policies/electric-shock-collars-and-training-aids/

The last one and kick yourself in the nuts for suggesting a shock collar when all he's doing is following his nature, you going to fit shock collars to your kids necks for when they leave the lights on after themselves or sticky fingerprints over every surface? It may be something he grows out of but it could be that he wont and that strong scent drive will always be there. You've gotta take the good with the bad and some dogs with their natures just can't be left off the lead, count how many beagles you see not on a lead.

Training.

Shock collar.... WTF.

Sister and BIL can't let their lab off the lead as no recall, similar age and done - tried lots of training. Lovely dog, but no recall.

Watch Dogs behaving very badly. He's always doing stuff with recall.
Also, Cesar Milan is a good source for training tips.

benton?

OP

kick yourself in the nuts for

Not that I am advocating a shock collars but I thought the idea was that you use it a couple of times. They have a bell/ringing then vibrating and then an electric shock. Ideally you use the electric shock in training along with the bell and vibrating which then makes the need for shock redundant.
Or is it more evil than that?

We got a Bluetick Coonhound when we lived in Canada and he's with us in the UK now. He's breed to lock onto a scent and chase, but not harm things. He's pretty big (40kgs+) and super strong. He wants to play (chase) sheep, other dogs and deer. He doesn't have an aggressive nature but is pretty intimidating. He's great with other dogs but we can't let him off the lead on virtually any walk near animals. Our other dog (collie) has great recall and is off the lead on most walks. We've just accepted his nature and plan off lead walks to avoid animals (hard where we live). I did consider a shock collar (legal in Canada but I didn't think they were here) but couldn't bring myself to electrocute him. Good luck with however you decided to deal with it.

Something to think about - especially if you have kids I guess.... is it’s not just the moment when he goes running off that is the issue. The success of any training is consistency and the dog knowing it’s place in the pecking order. As well as doing the right thing on your walks and runs you need to have the right relationship all the time.

my pal had problems with his dog’s recall failing (despite normally being good) and it boiled down to his kids inviting the dog up onto furniture as part of a game they played - when they were doing that it was changing the relationship the dog has with the family and eroding authority with everyone for things like recall. For him the solution was really training his kids rather than the dog.

Dogs want to know their place so have a mind for that, and think about things like you or the kids giving the dog ‘your’ food and so on. Dogs generally want to do the right thing but they need clarity on what the right thing is

Don't forget he is a rescue, so you'll never get some habbits out of them. Training, by a professional, or keep him on the lead.

So, now we have the collar issue out the way, here is my more productive input.

Put the dog on lead, walk him the where prey is. As soon as he sees something and lifts his nose, give him a telling off. Nothing physical but don't be afraid of being very clear that he is wrong. Stern voice, get in his face. Then walk him away. Do that two or three times then go home. Then get some rope or longer lead and repeat but pull him back close to you. It is important you respond instantly, he reacts to prey, you react to hom, that same second. Just keep going. Always have high reward treats to hand and, the first time he ignores prey, reward instantly with treats. And repeat, and repeat. Extend the lead, and repeat.

I accept it may be hard to do this as his prey is deer, do you have a local deer farm or deer park where you can ask permission to train?

Take high value treats on every walk and recall him every few minutes, even when you don't need to. Keep repeating and high value reward every single time. Then stretch distances out, let him run 10m, 25m, 50m, 100m then call back. Every time he is less than perfect, wind things back to the previous stage.

I did this for my dog who used to be interested in sheep but has to have an annual pass/fail stock test. It worked for my dog. It might work for yours.

Good luck

Dear me.

Anyway, without the outrage from folk who have likely never encountered this issue before.

An e-collar can be a great tool IF used properly. They should never ever be used as a punishment, that defeats what you are trying to achieve.

Something like a Dogtra is a high quality training tool that is perfectly legal and when used correctly is highly effective.

Many will get very emotive, because they assume e-collars are simply a punishment to hurt dogs, that is utter rubbish.

The dog should be introduced to the collar using minimal settings simply to attract the dogs attention and serious praise should be used when they turn towards you (instantly releasing the collar) This then progresses to simple recall using the collar to turn the dog onto your command.

The prey drive can be overcome using a method where the collar is used and slowly turned up until you break the dogs attention from the prey, again instantly releasing the collar and using priase to call the dog.

Read up on them and research their proper use.

Ignore the emotion, sometimes it can be life or death for a dog so they can and should be used where required.

I have a Teckel at the moment who is not praise or treat driven in any way, and will track deer for many miles. Or squirrel, magpies anything furry, or anything that flies.
If I cannot break that prey drive when he is not working I absolutely will use my collar.
I'd rather that than the dog be run over or lost.

(indirectly) illegal Scotland

Absolutely not. Not illegal in England either.

I found this article when we were considering a collar. Gives an interesting perspective.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2411854/dog-shock-collar-training-experience

brads
Full Member
Dear me.

Anyway, without the outrage from folk who have likely never encountered this issue before.

How did people train dogs before they could remotely electrocute them?

Kikopup do some good videos on recall and many other things.
Cesar Milan has been widely discredited and no one should take any notice of what he says.

Life would be a lot better for most people if all dogs were kept on a 1m lead and muzzled at all times when outdoors.

Do you live at the Crook? Who did you go to for training?

What's the take on spray collars? Still frowned upon?

Cesar Milan has been widely discredited and no one should take any notice of what he says.

Really? My other half watches a lot of his videos. Seems fairly harmless. 🤔

So the theory is that shock collars are okay because you get them subtly adjusted to experiencing pain until you turn it up far enough that it hurts enough to snap them away from what you can't train them to do, if you're okay with that crack on. Life or death for the dog, no the dog wants to chase deer, a fairly natural instinct for many breeds, and the owner wants to stop it so he can roam where and when he wants. Or rather than causing another creature pain (even if it small as you say) the owner could just either try to train the behaviour out or you know keep it on a lead and commit to the ownership of the dog that they have agreed to. Similar to a marriage, in sickness and in health, for good or for bad!

Yeah apologies for mentioning distance of ride.....
Don't live in The Crook any more, now about 20 miles away.
Perhaps I need to go back to square one with the training.

Whatever you decide to do feel free to ignore the pop-psychology dominance stuff. Dogs are not wolves. If your dog goes after a deer it's nothing to do with whether or not it's allowed on the sofa.

You might find that training to a whistle can help as the high pitched noise is better than the human voice at grabbing the dog's attention from whatever is more interesting.

To be honest I'm quite happy for our collie to give the local deer a bit or exercise. It's funny if they don't run because then she is totally confused. But if we don't want her to chase them the trick is to be alert to the situation and call her back early. If we say no as soon as she picks up the scent she's fine but trying to call her back when she's at full tilt is always going to be tricky.

The key, as always, is persistence. You can train them to ignore anything as long as you keep reinforcing the "good" behaviour. Ours will ignore the chickens, won't look at a sheep and gives cattle a wide berth. All done by repeatedly exposing her to the situation (on a lead at first) and giving her treats when she does what you want. Certainly never felt the need to shock her.

Cesar Milan has been widely discredited

@kayak23 Specially selected subjects that are amenable to his methods appear on the show. Those that do no respond never get the nod.

The no touch, talk and eye contact can work for rescues (again they have to be amenable) as it makes them curious.

OP the advice from my sister (walker and daycare provider plus trained in much behaviour stuff) for our current chap was recall happens in the house. Whenever the dog is in a different room call him and give a treat when he comes (see threads on dog-crack for what to offer). Repeat, repeat, repeat and then repeat some more.

You'll never break the strong prey drive but you can tone it down quite a bit. Over time your dog will prefer the eay win of dog crack from you over a long run after something that may hurt him if it gets caught. (Muntjac have some pretty nasty tusks, your dog will bleed the first time).

Electric shock collars were going to be banned in england in 2018. dunno if the legislation every got passed. Banned in Wales in 2010 and in Scotland are banned

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-42807728

You might find that training to a whistle can help as the high pitched noise is better than the human voice at grabbing the dog’s attention from whatever is more interesting.

This sort of works for my Setter. She's trained to come back to the whistle and generally does. However with deer it just distracts her momentarily, usually for long enough for the deer to disappear. She then seems to happily follow the scent in the opposite direction to which it's run.

My GSP used to do the running after deer thing. Best thing is to just go home, they find their way back eventually

So if you just went home I don't suppose you knew how the deer were?

If you've only had the pup for 12 months you have hardly begun training! Even though, as you say, it's 3 years old and a rescue you still have o lot of training to do.
You need to be more fun than whatever they are chasing/hunting and that is hard to do, you need to work at it. As mentioned above, start recall on the lead and work up to longer distances.

FWIW we have a 2 year old lurcher and every day is still a school day for recall and obedience training.
If she's anything like our 12 year old whippet, there's a few more years yet before she's trained!

My GSP used to do the running after deer thing. Best thing is to just go home, they find their way back eventually

Breaking the law as well

I'll try not to bore the socks off you, but I love this stuff...

Thorndyke's law of effect (E.L. Thorndyke, psychologist) basically states that if the consequence of an action(or a behaviour) is pleasant, then that action/behaviour becomes more likely (and also, if the consequence is unpleasant, then the action/behaviour becomes less likely.

First thing to do is stop letting him off lead where he's likely to run off - your dog has taken to running off after scents to investigate. If he keeps doing it, then he's getting something out of it (otherwise he wouldn't repeat the behaviour), or in other words he's finding it pleasing. The more he practices this, the more likely it is he'll do it again.

You need to become the center of his universe so that firstly he doesn't want to leave you, and also condition him to know that when he does come back, great things happen and that you are much more entertaining than whatever's "out there".

I could help you with that if you're not too far (I'm near Ketly), or could put you on to a reputable trainer.

E-collars: If you're dog is chasing a deer and you want to stop him using an e-collar, Thorndyke's law dictates that the consequence of chasing the deer must be be more unpleasant than the thrill of the chase - otherwise why should he stop? There's really no need.

So if you just went home I don’t suppose you knew how the deer were?

go on, have a think about that scenario and get back to me

Breaking the law as well

The dog prisons were full, so she got a suspended sentence. 😆

One of my GSPs is very prey driven. As above, I recommend constant call management off the lead to stop the chase happening in the first place and a whistle for recall rather than shouting.
On the plus side, you’ll learn to see the woods in the same way as wildlife and know where they hang out and where to avoid. In the FofD I get the added fun of being a boar matador when they come charging out of the undergrowth to complain about being barked at.

Swinnertons (brilliant bike shop) have stopped selling dogs. They're in "FENTON!!!"

Ah yeah, we had pigs over the local thicket. So funny how they're not the least bit concerned with dogs.

(indirectly) illegal in Scotland

Absolutely not.

You will have noticed my use of the Indirectly when describing them as illegal.

Do you fancy testing that in court?

Training that includes unpleasant (aversive) stimuli or physical punishment may cause unacceptable pain, suffering and distress. It is important to note that causing unnecessary suffering to a protected animal is an offence under Section 19 of the Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006, if the person knew, or ought to have known, that the action would cause unnecessary suffering. This may include unnecessary suffering caused by inappropriate training methods.

Particular training devices that the Scottish Government does not condone are: electronic shock (static pulse) collars, electronic anti-bark collars, electronic containment systems, or any other method to inflict physical punishment or negative reinforcement. This includes the use of any device that squirts oils such as citronella or other noxious chemicals that interfere with a dog's acute sense of smell, or emits any other aversive stimulus. These techniques compromise dog welfare, as they may lead to aggressive responses and worsen the problems that they aim to address by masking or aggravating underlying behavioural issues.

This guidance is advisory and may provide an aid to both dog owners and those involved in the enforcement of the Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006. Those responsible for enforcement of the 2006 Act may refer to the guidance when issuing advice, warning letters or care notices under the 2006 Act. A Court may, at its discretion, consider the guidance in a prosecution under Section 19 or Section 24 of the Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006."

https://www.gov.scot/publications/guidance-dog-training-aids/

I have a Karelian Bear Dog from Finland that are used for hunting deer, boar and bears.

He stays on a lead 99% of the time as no command's/shouts/whistle/promises of cheese get through that prey drive when it cuts in.

I trained as a dog handler and what I will say is that training a dog even simple commands and behaviour can be incredibly repetitive, frustrating and feels like Groundhog Day, with 2 steps forward and 1 step back being the norm.

I do not agree with or see a need for compulsion in any way or form. If you use any form of negative reinforcement it will unravel at some point; often resulting in a bad mannered dog who may snap at some point. Positive reinforcement and reward is the only way to get lasting and satisfying results.

My opinion (based on a speed read of the OP) is that whilst the dog likes you, he’s bored of running after you on your bike... he needs to understand that being with you is more fun than chasing deer. This is a difficult thing to explain on a quick thread but the dog has to want to be with you, and this will help or go a long way to overcome any inbred tendencies. Prey drive is one of the keys to training; use it and exploit it. I usually work out what orientates my dog (food or ball treat & play). In fact I generally get the dog obsessed with a rope ball treat before even trying training. If he’s obsessed with the ball treat then this is his reward in training. The ball treat only comes out when I’m happy and want to reward him. Done properly the dog will REAlLY want to please you because that’s how he gets his all treat (which, incidentally involves playing with you not just giving it to him).

I will only begin training something new once I’m happy he has the right level of obsession with the treat (and me). Once this occurs he will work out what you want home to do so the he gets what he wants.

A very quick tip - done even try to recall at the point he runs away. He will not hear you and you’ll just end up with the classic Fenton scenario.

We fostered a Romanian rescue for a bit and she had a very strong prey drive. Like others have said, most of the training was done in the house. Getting them used to returning to us when called. We then booked a secure dog park and practised recall there with high value treats such as chicken and cheese.
When she would return from a quick run and sniff while on the walk we'd make a fuss so she wanted to come back. With you being on your bike, they may not want to come back all the time as where is the benefit or fun?
The whole idea about being dominant over your dog is rubbish. My FiL has used the cesar methods and now only he can control the dogs, they don't listen to anyone else and try and dominate others in the house, especially visiting children.
There is a great book, in defence of dogs. Worth a read.

@kayak23
There's loads on the internet about Cesar Milan and his methods being outdated at best and dangerous and cruel at worst. Here is one example:
https://medium.com/@vandanni.hadai/cesar-millan-the-problem-with-his-approach-and-the-future-of-dog-training-49dd8cddb391

benton?

JESUS CHRIST, FENTON!!!

I've had several retired greyhounds and rescued lurchers. While I could get them really to have good control in classes and a more controlled environment with their tastiest treats once we were out and something got their attention even a dripping fresh roast chicken wouldn't have worked. It's in their nature to chase and it had been encouraged before I got them.

We just had to be incredibly careful where we let them run free and obviously never near any areas where there were stock. The one thing that did help if we were caught out (and that could be a plastic bag flapping in a hedge) was to run the opposite direction wailing and flapping our arms like a nutter and even dropping to the floor with that carry on. They'd come running pressumably thinking WTF! And then we'd reward, never chastise.

I miss my dogs, where I live now in Shetland dogs are practically demonized by the crofters and there are few places you can safely let them run free. In my work I get nothing but grief about irresponsible dog owners, people not realising that the dog making sheep run and scatter is actually worrying, not just being attacked.

If you can't keep your dog under close control please keep it on a lead and do every other dog owner a favour. Or let them run free in a suitable area.

We have a Spanish podenco cross rescue, their hunting dog breed, & with a lot of work he’s now a very pleasant boy, not perfect, but it’s been a long long road & simply it’s down to you to do the work, there no instant fix. Go get expert help to guide you, & have reasonable expectations.

My partner, who now become sucked into dog training, suggest contacting a local behaviourist from IMDT Might be a helpful start (not suggesting their the best or only organisation that could help)

@kayak23
There’s loads on the internet about Cesar Milan and his methods being outdated at best and dangerous and cruel at worst. Here is one example:
https://medium.com/@vandanni.hadai/cesar-millan-the-problem-with-his-approach-and-the-future-of-dog-training-49dd8cddb391/blockquote >

Thanks. Interesting reading. I'll pass that link on to the other half. She likes to watch Cesar as she likes to watch pretty much anything with dogs in it. She certainly doesn't use any of the dominance techniques that article claims but perhaps more cherry-picks what she's happy with for our dog.
I'll have a bit more of a read up about him. 👍

 

No worries. CM got a lot of negative press and his TV was cancelled so perhaps he changed his ways. I'm sure he does some things right too so no harm in watching his cherry-picked shows. Good to be aware though.

Reading with interest. Our dog is also a rescue, from Spain, we've had him just over a year now, and his recall is good. It helped that he's really food-driven (we assume he was scavenging for a while, as when we first got him he would eat ANYTHING), so it was pretty easy training him with treats. He also doesn't tend to range when he's off the lead, he's about ten now and just plods along, and doesn't generally GAF about any other animals; we've had him (always on a lead, obvs) near sheep, pigs, horses, cows, chickens, geese, it's as if they're not even there.

Because of that still-strong food drive, if he gets the whiff of, I dunno, a dropped sausage roll, then he's not going to come back, because he knows that sausage roll is much better than treat he'll get if he comes back. In that case though, it's normally easy enough to just wait till he's eaten whatever it is, or go over to him and stick him on the lead.

However, out walking earlier this week, he was off the lead behind me, and I saw a couple of hares about 50ft away in front of me. They legged it, obviously, soon way out of sight. He then padded past me, got what I assume was a whiff of them and went MENTAL; legging it round like a spaniel, nose to the ground, running off in the direction the hares went (and a good distance away at that), running back, off again, he was really, really agitated and there was no way he was coming back, his head had clearly 'gone'. This went on for a good five minutes, and I only managed to get him as at one point he circled round back past me and I managed to grab him. I won't lie, it gave me a bit of a scare, I've never seen him like that.

The bored thing is key. We have had loads of spaniels. You need to be engaged with them on their walks if you’re out in the countryside as there’s plenty of other stuff that they find interesting other than just running alongside you. I lose count of the people I see walking their dog chatting to their mate whilst the dog runs amok or people on the phone walking the dog and the dog off chasing birds, deer, kids etc. You need to engage with the dog mentally on a walk not just walk/ run it to exhaustion. The dog basically needs to have more fun with you that it would chasing deer. You can do this by having it off the lead but challenging it repeatedly by calling it back, sending it off (not too far), hiding a ball at the side of the path rather than lobbing it miles into the undergrowth where birds nest and deer may lay up.

Anyone who thinks it’s fun to let their dog chase deer or ignore it is either trolling or just plain dumb. No more needs saying on that.

Training dogs is tough and it’s not the fun part of dog ownership that you or the kids think!

JESUS CHRIST, FENTON!!!

apologies. poor recall...

Electric shock collars were going to be banned in england in 2018. dunno if the legislation every got passed. Banned in Wales in 2010 and in Scotland are banned

Banned in Wales legal in England and Scotland.

Do you fancy testing that in court?

I would have no issue with that. The law your quoting is about causing unnecessary pain and the do not "condone" e-collars.

As I have said, if used properly they should not be causing pain at all, simply a stimulus and discomfort to the point you turn the dog away from its prey drive.
I fully accept that they can cause a pain if used extremely. Once they have been used successfully then there is no need to keep using it.

I was at a shoot once and a guy used a collar as a punishment, it was taken from him and left in a river.

There will always be difference in opinions here, I'm simply stating what's what for the OP, if you don't like collars , don't use them.

If you use any form of negative reinforcement it will unravel at some point; often resulting in a bad mannered dog who may snap at some point. Positive reinforcement and reward is the only way to get lasting and satisfying results.

When used correctly the dog is conditioned to the collar as a positive reinforcement. You are using the collar to gain the dogs attention. Positive reinforcement follows immediately.

Been doing loads of homework on their proper use as I may have to use mine.
Dogs been wearing it on and off but it hasn't even been charged up yet.
It won't get used until I'm happy that the dog won't be negatively affected by it's use.
This is purely to turn him away from his prey drive and stop him chasing / tracking when he's not supposed to.

It's pretty uncomfortable knowing a dog will track across ploughed fields or motorways with no other thought in his head.

Strangely he is broken to sheep and cattle ! lol little bugger. Hates peacocks mind.

go on, have a think about that scenario and get back to me

Erm, nope, don't see what you're driving at.

The law about dogs chasing deer basically states it's only illegal if it proven it was carried out deliberately.

They are NOT legal in Scotland. Absolutly not. Read the quoted piece.

Again - chasing deer thing - illegal whether intentional or not. You are confusing the anti hunting legislation which does have that proviso with other law around animals which does not. for example your dog MUST be under control at all times.

They are not illegal in Scotland

<blockquoteI have a Karelian Bear Dog from Finland that are used for hunting deer, boar and bears.

He stays on a lead 99% of the time as no command’s/shouts/whistle/promises of cheese get through that prey drive when it cuts in.

This - you have bought a hound / hunting dog, that has been bred for many generations to chase and hunt things...
We have an English Pointer - who has all the same problems. He will chase anything - bees, leaves, little animals, the cat down the road, and mostly squirrels.
His recall is awful - but slowly getting better. We using a training lead (20m) to walk him, so he can run around a lot - and we can practise recall with him. But it is little steps.
There is no food that can break the thrill of the hunt n seek. He distinctly has two body languages - being a pet ( where his ears go back and he wags his tail) and hunt - ears up , tail between legs, or straight out - and he will not respond to anything.
Next stage will be a gun-dog trainer - he is a bright dog - just very wilful.

We take him to as safe field once a week - so he can run, and hunt, and run and hunt, and run and hunt for an hour. And we know we can get him back.

But also time is a big factor - under 6 months and they do not really see you as being the meaning of their life. Over that and the risks of buggering off do get balanced against doing a runner ...

They are not illegal in Scotland

Well the scottish government think they are and have made guidence to the legislation that makes it clear that their use is illegal.

so you are simply wrong on this.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/electric-shock-collars-dogs-banned-scotland-590688

https://www.gov.scot/publications/guidance-dog-training-aids/

That Scottish government note doesn’t actually state shock collars are illegal. It states it is guidance and their use could be considered in prosecution, that does not equate with being illegal.

They are not illegal in Scotland. You are wrong

Pedantic. Its clear that their use is illegal. ie it breaches the other acts as its animal cruelty and the guidence makes that clear. IE there is no excuse for using them

Ms Cunningham said she had made the decision after listening to the concerns that had been raised - particularly over the ready availability on the internet of cheap devices which can be bought by anyone and used to deliver painful electric shocks.

She added: "I have decided to take steps to effectively and promptly ban their use in Scotland.

"Causing pain to dogs by inappropriate training methods is clearly completely unacceptable and I want there to be no doubt that painful or unpleasant training for dogs will not be tolerated".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-42807728

Their use is Brads - read what the scottish government says.

You could and would be prosecuted for their use. that is 100% clear.

Just because you want something to be legal does not mean it is

Same as not having your dogs under control is illegal

Same as causing distress to wildlife ( ie accdentally chasing deer) is illegal

Had a border collie cross that used to do this when out with the bike. I used to have just sit down and wait for him to come back from chasing deer. Guess he always wondered why I didn’t join in.

Even shooting uk knows they are banned

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/electric-dog-training-collars-banned-in-scotland-97777

Their use is Brads – read what the scottish government says.

Easy win available, can you show the relevant legislation banning their use rather than press announcements or guidance notes.

There is no specific ban. What has been done is by using the guidance making it clear that their use is illegal under existing law.

Read the quotes FFS. Its in black and white. The scottish government says so, the kennel club agrees, shooting UK agrees.

We're currently on exactly the same part of training with our rescue spaniel.

When we first let her off the lead her recall was most excellent as she (according to our behaviourist) has become more confident in herself as she's settled in her recall has gone to pot. She now only gets off the lead when we are at the beach.

Days like this feel very far away at the moment.

View this post on Instagram

Given Roseanna Cunningham is very local to me, I better not a) use a shock collar b) let my hound chase the local deer population through her garden!
So I am picking up a bit of a theme here (bit slow perhaps like my dog), I/we need to invest more time and energy in the training. The idea that we will walk along the river Earn whilst 'Rafi' sniffs around within an acceptable range and if he gets a sniff of deer/hare we will whistle/call him and he will dutifully fight against his prey drive and return to us is perhaps unrealistic. I/we need to resign ourselves to several nmonths/years of training which may ultimately result in keeping him on the lead at all times.
Irrespective of the legality issue, shock collars are a no no as they are inhumane, may be counter-productive. I just have this nagging thought that if we can provoke a pavlovian response to certain situations we may save us and him from a huge amount of pain long term. Not saying I am going to go down that route.

Yet msp’s think they’re not illegal yet.

17th June 2020
Electric dog collars could be banned in Scotland as MSPs pass bill

Kennel club say something similar

Kennel Club urges cross-party collaboration in Scotland to fully ban cruel shock collars
Published on 15 June 2020 at 11:16am

In my original post I said that shock collars are (indirectly) illegal in Scotland. This is true in that their use is potentially illegal. The Scottish Government is instructing courts to consider that their use may constitute an offence of causing unnecessary suffering under the Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006. So yes, the collars themselves are not banned, but use of them is likely to be seen as a criminal offence by the courts.

Being pedantic serves no purpose here, if a police officer sees you using a shock collar, you could end up in court for it. You pendency will not get you acquitted.

But, should it be their legality, or lack of, that helps you to decide if they are an appropriate training aid? The British Veterinary Association says:

Research has shown that the application of an electric shock to dogs or cats, even at a low level, can cause physiological and behavioural responses associated with stress, pain, and fear

The only organisations that support their continued use are field sports and gamekeeper associations and they are hardly the last bastions of animal welfare excellence.

Their use is Brads – read what the scottish government says.

Their use is not illegal. You are wrong.

"causing unnecessary suffering to a protected animal"

Collars do not cause unnecessary suffering unless they are used in a complete wrong manner.
Same as a stick, rolled up newspaper or a hand.

They are not illegal. Quite simple really can't understand why you can't work that out.

they are inhumane

No they aren't They can be if wielded by a ****.

I understand folk don't like them, they can usually be spotted by ignoring every other single piece of text I've posted about how to use them correctly, but that's moot.

The OP asked for info, I gave them some.

I appreciate the info Brads.
Whatever happens there is no way we would do the shock collar thing ourselves we would get a pro to do it. However at present I am minded to re-focus on the training.

When we first let her off the lead her recall was most excellent as she (according to our behaviourist) has become more confident in herself as she’s settled in her recall has gone to pot. She now only gets off the lead when we are at the beach.

That was us exactly. I am now told all we were doing was reinforcing his prey drive.

Brads - yes they are - go on - PM me your name and address and I'll report you for animal cruelty ( which is what you are doing) and then we can get it tested in the courts.

causing unnecessary suffering to a protected animal

is exactly what you are doing

their use is illegal. Thats it.

The OP asked for info, I gave them some.

Wrong info

I also have a 2.5 year old gsp, and know all about their deafness as soon as she smells a pheasant.
It is difficult trying to find anything which is more appealing to them as the hunt but I have a ball on a rope, a hunting dummy, a ball and treats on me, so she doesn’t know what she get if she comes to me.
The problem is nothing is as good as a live pheasant, I have even tried training with a dead bird but she is not interested in them at all, didn’t even want to pick it up.

She has always been called by a whistle However,I am presently working on an stop and look at me whistle now.
Which is starting to work but has to be constant. It is always worth seeing the danger before they do, and never letting them occupy themselves for too long, before giving them something todo for you.

Most dogs aren't interested in a live animal, they are interested in chasing a live animal. The thrill is the chase.

Difficult to always have a live bird in your back pocket. Although I have considered it.
What you don’t want to be is the person who takes away the fun, you want to be a better source of fun than the bird who just flew away anyway.

It’s always going to be hard, as someone has said above, you’re trying to train out hundreds of years of breeding and instinct.
I think it’s why dogs like MTBing so much, you’re going at their pace, over rough ground with the thrill of the chase.

I think it’s why dogs like MTBing so much, you’re going at their pace, over rough ground with the thrill of the chase.

It also adds something extra for the human, no switching off ever while the dog is loose. It is mentally tiring for the new trail-dog owner. I can manage around 10km at a pedestrian pace whilst Bodie is learning and ageing. Around 2 years down the line I may get to concentrate on going quickly through features but for the minute I need to know where he is and what may be about to distract him.

Erm, nope, don’t see what you’re driving at.

Oh right, this. Well (apart from the fact I was taking the piss to start with, you know, there was an emoji?), put simply, when deer run away, you (and the dog come to that) really really can't catch them. Let alone check on their wellbeing.

However at present I am minded to re-focus on the training.

We have an all-purpose 'emergency stop' command. Our dog will stop whatever it is up to and do this (a lie 'DOWN') command. We have also a whistle version of that command. It stops any undesirable behaviour. You then have the attention of the dog and you can try a recall.

Years of repetition and reward.

Keep at it 🙂

@tjagain

You are claiming your (wrong) opinion as law. No point discussing it any further.