[Closed] Does speaker cable actually make a difference?

Depends which way round you put it

Of course it does!

Why else would someone make £25,000 RCA cables? https://www.kronosav.com/collections/interconnects/products/siltech-triple-crown-interconnect

It can't be just snake oil can it?

Christ no, snake oil.

In my book, a decent cable is way better than cheap stuff from Screwfix, but when you start spending silly money it's the law of diminishing returns.

I use Chord Company RumourX and I like them.

Do you want the short answer or the longer one?

Short answer: "No" so long as you're not using shitty bell wire and 99p interconnects.

In a double blind test, no one will be able to tell the difference between an expensive HiFi cable and a 2.5mm twin & earth mains cable. In any test which isn't double blind, the expensive cable will be 'far superior'.

it’s the law of diminishing returns

Exactly this.

In a double blind test, no one will be able to tell the difference between an expensive HiFi cable and a 2.5mm twin & earth mains cable.

I got lambasted last time I said this but I stand by it, domestic mains cable is about the best speaker cable you can get.

In any case, you're playing records, speaker wire is not your limiting factor here. </contentious>

You want cables that can actually carry the current you want to deliver, but £10-15 is ridonkulous.

This should be more than adequate -

https://www.richersounds.com/gale-symphony-300.html

Just call Richer Sounds and ask them to spec up a cheap cable e.g. under £3/m

Get some budget Mark Grant banana connectors and you're good for 10+ years

If you've got any digital devices, make sure you stock up on £1450 usb cables.
https://www.audiosanctuary.co.uk/vertere-pulse-hb-double-usb-cable.html
😆

Standard stuff from richer sounds will be fine. My parents have one of those little Denon midi systems, it came with what is pretty much bell wire. I swapped it for the richer sounds stuff, I thought it sounded different/betterer. Ma and pa didn't care.
I have never tried grey cable, would be fine also.
I did have some crappy connectors once, kept coming loose so got some better ones from rs. Sounded the same but didn't come loose again
First commandment of hifi -
Crap in = Crap out. Spend money where it counts

You'd notice much more of an improvement in audio playback/sound quality if you place speakers correctly in the room and pay heed to the room acoustics with absorption/diffusion treatment - the room is a massive contributing factor to how a system sounds, once you get that sorted then spend a few £ on cables but don't think you need to spend a fortune as you will not hear a difference that justifies the cost. I use basic cables on my system, all cables cost well under £40 - audioquest pearl usb from iMac to Cambridge Audio CXN v2 network streamer/dac and basic neutrik/van damme balanced xlr cables to active sub and active speakers.

I bought the above cables more for the manufacturing quality than for any perceived sound improvement

In a double blind test, no one will be able to tell the difference between an expensive HiFi cable and a 2.5mm twin & earth mains cable. In any test which isn’t double blind, the expensive cable will be ‘far superior’

This.  I think that covers all bases admirably.  If you look at the manufacturers sites for people who make the sort of cable you would use when doing an installation in a mastering room you aren't seeing these crazy prices.

The directional thing if more interesting.  You tend to get directional cable 'assemblies' where there might be some components in the terminating connector, but the cable itself isn't directional in any known way.  The arrow on the outside is really just for convenience in the final assembly rather than anything else.  Same way as with a red/black pair doesn't mean that only positive voltages can be on the red side

or something like that

Decent, yes. Extortionate no. My go to cables (speakers and interconnects) were always RS Components. I haven't needed to run up any more for years but still have plenty left on the drum for when.

Thanks all, think i am going for Chord Company C-Screen, figure it is better than basic, but still only £5 a metre and only need 6 metres, so nothing too daft.

Any recommendations then on best place to set speakers, i know you should not place them directly in a corner? So sound doesnt "bounce" around?

@scud, honestly save yourself 25 quid and get some twin power cord. Hell they even do nice colours of it.

The directional thing if more interesting. You tend to get directional cable ‘assemblies’ where there might be some components in the terminating connector, but the cable itself isn’t directional in any known way.

Audio is a.c. Alternating Current, so the electrons flow equally in both directions. Hence anything mentioning directivity is just complete and utter BS. For half of each cycle the current flows in one direction down each cable and then for the other half of thc cycle it flows in the other direction. The current is changing direction continually at up to 20,000 a second (assuming you're young and can still hear 20 kHz).

I gave up using cables a while back and have moved over to hydraulic. Provided you can get a decent bleed they are much better...

I went from £3/m ish copper to QED silver which was IIRC £5/m, so about a £30 upgrade. I thought it was a fair bit better given the outlay, but you'd never have known if you hadn't tested back to back. The previous stuff which had been my first 'proper cable' upgrade hadn't made any difference at all regardless of how much I wanted it to, so I'm fairly confident it wasn't my imagination. I didn't try twin and earth mains cable.

The best thing is when people buy expensive speaker cable and then wire them out of phase 😉

Cables can absolutely sound different.

I would get decent stands and positioning in this scenario first, it's hard to try cables out, and I'm not sure they would make much difference here.

The current is changing direction continually at up to 20,000 a second (assuming you’re young and can still hear 20 kHz).

Much like trees not really caring if the forest is empty or not, the electrons will still be doing the dance even if you're old and your ears are knackered 🙂

An old friend owns a music design post production company here in Glasgow. When theye opened their new premises many moons ago Giles was showing it off to me and pointed out several things- a pair of speakers costing 50k,80k video systems, the main mixing board which wouldnt have looked out of place on the starship enterpirse, and other amazing things, He also pointed out one of the cable management systems and the cables on that were extremely expensive, I think they were like the above post huge amount of cash, so yup, i guess so.

chunky cable for speakers, bigger is better
and if you are not bi amping - bi wiring still does make a difference IMO though not many domestic speaker have the option and would require some fettling

and +1 to room layout, in general speakers sound better firing along the long axis of the room, some are actually designed to be used agains a wall or in corners or may have a switch to adjust the LF response to suit placement.

stands are nice and its easy to make your own.

ou tend to get directional cable ‘assemblies’ where there might be some components in the terminating connector,

Such as...?

Make sure to position the source higher than any speakers so you get the help of gravity pulling the music down to them

I’ve spent a lot of time in recording studios and mastering suites in my 51years and I’ve yet to see one cabled with anything ‘posh’ the majority use VanneDamme white or blue.
Read into that what you will.

Room treatment, so its not an echo chamber, point the speakers at the listener, positioning the speakers so they are not bouncing sound off walls or corners.

Then buy a roll of twin & earth cable, normal domestic power cable and some connectors to replace the bell wire speaker cables that normally come with whole systems.

Good old standard QED 72-Strand. Perfectly adequate for any real-world hifi setup.
Interconnects, don’t spend silly money, good solid plugs on the ends of a reasonable quality wire will do, but make sure the actual sockets are properly cleaned, especially the outside, use a fine plastic scouring pad to remove any accumulated dust and corrosion to ensure a nice clean connection, that’s more important than fancy expensive wire.
Then enjoy the music.
One tip - whatever the speakers are mounted on, pot some blobs of blu-tac under the corners, it’ll isolate the cabinets from what they’re stood on, and prevent them from getting knocked over if they’re on stands.

Any fat cable will do. Mains 2.5mm^2 T&E works well. As does 2-core mains cable.

79-strand 2-ply speaker cable works well and feels thick and good.

I got some 4-ply fancy cables for bi-wiring with a couple of pairs of speakers I bought used. No difference between those and 79 strand except they’re harder to route.

ignore the BS and just use some of the thick-ish cable that’s cheap.

Such as…?

small ferrite beads for example.  If what you were concerned about was RF pickup then it might make a difference (I'm not saying it does - I use mains wire).  Once you add a component on one end of the cable rather than the other then the cable is 'directional'.  Remember that a cable is actually a mixture of inductance and capacitance rather than just a piece of wire.  Whether or not that has any effect at the frequencies we are talking about is another matter but if you take that and add any component on one end only the cable becomes 'directional'.  The same is also true if the cable is a pair of wires inside an outer sheath that acts as a shield.  If you only ground it at one end then the whole thing becomes directional.  Again this would be quite normal practice with HF signals and I would be surprised if it makes a difference at audio frequencies but from a pure practical point of view the cable has become directional

Seems like you probably have your answer for your initial question, but would like to add a resounding 'yes' to do they make a difference.
Auditioned a CD player years back, and salesman said he just wanted to try some new speaker cable that had just come, would I mind - of course not and he proceeded to change things over. There was probably £300 difference between what he had originally and there was definitely a noticeable difference - mind would not say 'better', just different - definitely more bass, more weight and more presence, but I actually preferred the original sound. So yes they make a difference, but its subjective if that difference is 'better' or not.

How did the new passive cable know which electrons were Bass?

Was the demo CD by Placebo?

Always instructive when following these threads to observe that no-one actually reveals what music they listen to...

cable pobably needed to be "run -in" 😉

I use Metal cables for Classical is that wrong? 😉

I had one marantz system, a cheap Sanyo system and bought a second hand Yamaha system. On the way back from buying the Yamaha system I stopped in a car boot sale and bought a £5 set of speakers from a car boot sale.

I tried all of them back to back with posh cable from the 2nd hand set, cheapest richer sounds set and the thinnest cable imaginable from the Sanyo set.

I could hear a difference between the amps and speakers. I could not hear any difference in the wires.

As for which sounded better.... They all sounded like music.

My hi-fi is on my right (no, erm left!), with the speakers 4 feet apart. My neighbours would complain if I had it at any decent volume. I still enjoy the hell out of my music, so speaker cables would make no difference to me whatsoever. Any decent volume music is played through headphones.
I mean surely it depends on your set up and how you listen?

Do yer self a favour and ignore everything audiophiles say. There isn't another subject on the internet where such pish is spoken. 😆

What's an audiophile?...a hifi enthusiast that disagrees with you? 😂

small ferrite beads for example. If what you were concerned about was RF pickup then it might make a difference

Why would it make any difference which end they were at?

If you only ground it at one end then the whole thing becomes directional.

I don't think I've come across shielded speaker cables.

I'd suggest everyone goes and does some reading on the 'skin effect'. It might go some way in explaining the difference in sound some people can apparently identify with cables. Although I should add I don't believe it makes much difference in a home audio system with short cable runs and speakers with inductances vastly higher than the cables.

I also read an article online recently where the frequency response at the speaker was compared when using fancy cable and a wire coat hanger. The result was effectively zero difference, a couple of tiny variances which could be considered within the measurement system tolerance.

This guy made Hifi back in the day that would set the average person back the deposit on a small house.

His article explains it better than anyone else I’ve heard:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

I particularly liked "Ken Kessler and several other audio perverts..."

Cables “can” introduce an audible difference (albeit slight) with expensive hifi separates but get room acoustics and speaker positioning/isolation sorted first as this will make the greatest influence on the sound you hear/experience, it’s utterly pointless spending big on cables if your room is bouncing sound waves around and muddying what is reaching your ears. Cables are not something I’ve ever considered to be of any great influence on my system as it is relatively cheap/modest. FWIW I’ve spent £2.5k on acoustic room treatment, £2k on a network streamer/krk sub & speakers/isolation with another £100 on cables and most importantly of all, and the cheapest - £300 on a comfortable recliner for my arse to sit on.

I don't know for sure but I've always called bullshit on a lot of these fancy cables. I've always just used the thickest I can get, usually stuff from a soundsystem/Live PA. But I've no idea why I do this, habit I suppose.

I remember reading something on the web, must've been fifteen years ago where they tested loads of things and the best, or one of the best was network cable (cat5 nerds?)

still only £5 a metre

"Only" five quid a metre?

"Only" an idiot would ask for advice, get near-consensus and then do something else entirely.

audition

Stop it

I’d suggest everyone goes and does some reading on the ‘skin effect’. It might go some way in explaining the difference in sound some people can apparently identify with cables.

I'd suggest you do some reading on double-blind testing, as someone else suggested earlier. It might go some way in explaining the difference in sound some people can apparently identify with cables.

If under controlled conditions you can reliably and consistently hear the difference between £5+ per metre 'audiophile' grade speaker cable and a 13A spool, I'll give you my bike.

How did the new passive cable know which electrons were Bass?

Because of inductance and capacitance.

I had some interconnects that published the inductance and capacitance on the back of the packet. I bought the next level up, and they had higher values for both. But multiplied together the resonant frequency was outside the audible range, whereas on the cheaper ones it was well inside.

The materials were basically the same, so the construction of a cable clearly can have a (likely small) effect on sound.

Feeling a bit touchy/out of sorts t’night cougar?, go on then........insert a snarky comment if it makes you feel better.

If under controlled conditions you can reliably and consistently hear the difference between £5+ per metre ‘audiophile’ grade speaker cable and a 13A spool, I’ll give you my bike.

Maybe you ears are crap, but having experimented on a small scale with cheap stuff (and being of a scientific and somewhat cynical persuasion) that is a wager I would certainly not be making!

I mean sure, it might all be placebo effect, but it might not.

... and at the risk of repeating myself,

This entire thread is essentially "what fifty inch 4k TV to watch Charlie Chaplin films on?"

You can kid yourself about 'proper Hi-Fi' all you like, but the cold hard fact is that you're listening to records. 8p/mile bell wire to your speakers likely just adds to that authentic experience, what do you think they were using in the nostalgic 60s? And whilst I totally get the pleasure in the Chinese Tea Party ritual of cuing up vinyl, it hasn't been "Hi-Fi" for about half a century.

(Not trolling, I myself have spent silly money on this stuff. I have a crateful of cable downstairs waiting to be run following a house move. But I wouldn't buy it again.)

Feeling a bit touchy/out of sorts t’night cougar?, go on then……..insert a snarky comment if it makes you feel better.

I was born snarky, you've been here long enough to know this.

Two grand on a network streamer? What, so you've high-end, well defined 1's and 0's rather than potential 0.9999s and error correction doesn't exist?

Maybe you ears are crap,

I'm over 40 so yes they are, by definition, as are most other posters / readers here. Which makes this entire discussion silly.

but having experimented on a small scale with cheap stuff

"cheap = bell wire," I would totally agree. The shit we used to cable up midi hifi speakers with isn't fit for purpose.

(and being of a scientific and somewhat cynical persuasion) that is a wager I would certainly not be making!

Anything with a half decent core though, premium speaker cable of your choice versus a reel of 13A? I will absolutely make that wager with you if you believe you'll be able to reliably and consistently tell the difference double-blind, listening to whatever source of your choice. I've got a Surly Cross-Check worth maybe £700-£800, what do you want to put up against it?

Cougar : Two grand on a network streamer? What, so you’ve high-end, well defined 1’s and 0’s rather than potential 0.9999s and error correction doesn’t exist?

Someone’s eyesight is going along with his hearing.......I never wrote I spent £2k on a streamer, although I may if I had that amount of spare cash.

£800 on a Cambridge Audio CXN v2
£400 on KRK G4 Rokit 7 Active Monitors
£400 on a KRK 10s Active Subwoofer
£100 on IsoAcoustics iso-155 monitor isolation stands
£120 on IsoAcoustics iso-200 subwoofer isolation stand
£33 on 4 x 2m Neutrik/van dame balanced xlr cables
£60 on 2 x 1.5m Audioquest Pearl Ethernet cable, yep.....I bought 2 relatively expensive Ethernet cables, comments are welcome.
£30 on a Audioquest Pearl usb a to usb b cable

And if you want to pick holes in how I spent my money then I guess you need to include my sandisk extreme pro 2tb ssd drive that holds all my ALAC music @ £300, not forgetting my purchase of dbpoweramp @£50 along with an apple SuperDrive @ £60 to securely rip and tag 2000+ cds, may as well throw in my subscription to tidal hifi as well @ £20/month - and it’d be churlish to forget my yearly subscription to roon at £120.

Then again I could have saved the best part of £5k all in and just made do with my iPhone and freebie apple earbuds whilst sat listening on my chair as after all, at the end of the day it’s just ones & zeros, right?

I never wrote I spent £2k on a streamer,

Alright, fair, you 'only' spent £800 on it. My point still stands.

yep…..I bought 2 relatively expensive Ethernet cables, comments are welcome.

You've been had?

Ethernet is a standard of various categories which are either met or not. It's not like the old analogue hifi world. What goes in == what comes out, or it's faulty.

Would office workers get more vibrant colours in their PDF documents if IT give them a twenty quid per metre patch cable?

at the end of the day it’s just ones & zeros, right?

As soon as you move from analogue to digital then yes, yes it absolutely is. 1's go in, 1's go out, all that matters is your DAC and speakers, anything else is the 1970s crying into its soup.

And if you want to pick holes in how I spent my money then I guess

... Well, Ok. Then I guess you've pissed a chunk of that up the wall as well, I'm afraid. As a random example, what the hell is that comedy SSD about? You could've shoved all that lot on a cheap spinny HDD and knocked a zero off the cost.

Also, you'll shit yourself when you hear about FLAC. That'd be an improvement over ALAC, is free, and wouldn't tie you into a single manufacturer's systems if iTunes etc goes bang tomorrow.

Big up Cougar on this thread! I wish I could be arsed to type all that stuff, but I know it's all just pissing in the wind. Excellent work though 👍👍

I’ve got a Surly Cross-Check worth maybe £700-£800, what do you want to put up against it?

Nothing. I said I wouldn't make a wager!

I haven't tried mains cable anyway. Point is that speaker cable does make a difference, and we agree there. T+E may be accidentally better than many HiFi options, but this would be more of an amusing coincidence rather than proof that cable doesn't matter.

I popped into this thread yesterday, thinking "ooh, this'll be juicy", and was disappointed to find there was broad agreement. I'm glad to see that normal order has been resumed, carry on 🙂

“cheap = bell wire,” I would totally agree. The shit we used to cable up midi hifi speakers with isn’t fit for purpose.

Can you explain how better cable than this, say your mains cable, does make a difference; and yet there's nothing better than the mains cable?

That like accepting that a Rockhopper is better than an Apollo, but there is no bike better than a Rockhopper.

That like accepting that a Rockhopper is better than an Apollo, but there is no bike better than a Rockhopper.

The purpose of a cable is to allow current to flow through it unimpeded. Once it's achieved that purpose and has no noticable degradation to the system it cannot be improved upon in terms of it's primary function. Yes you can spend more, but the audio won't sound any better as you're limited by a whole range of other issues.

The problem with the world of Hifi is that the primary function is often to be expensive / look special and the audio qualities are secondary.

Hence you never see any double blind reviews in the Hifi world....

I used to work in a HiFi shop.

My speaker cable recommendations were entirely based on how much extra cash I thought the customer was willing to part with.

My favourite wheeze was making sure both speaker cables were the same length even if one speaker was much closer to the amp.

I've got QED silver anniversary speaker cable, but only because I found a hifi shop selling off cuts in the lengths I needed. It actually replaced some much bulkier Audioquest stuff that I'd also got cheap from another hi-fi shop as the cable outer was all bent and warped from been stored coiled up too tightly.

I couldn't hear the difference between the two cables.

You’ve been had?

Ethernet is a standard of various categories which are either met or not. It’s not like the old analogue hifi world. What goes in == what comes out, or it’s faulty.

Ok complicated.

The audio to the speakers is analogue, so any degradation in that system can affect the sound you hear. However, a low resistance, low inductance, low capacitance cable isn't at all difficult to source. There are lots of other imperfections in the speakers themselves which are far harder to resolve.

Ethernet is a digital signaling scheme where the data is encoded digitally with error correction. The error correction ensures that under 99.999999% of circumstances the digital signal at the end is exactlty the same as the one at the start. Ethernet is designed to work exceptionally well over very cheap twisted pair cables, there's no point spending extra on the cables as it won't make any difference. You can easily see how well your cheap cables are doing as on pretty much any PC you can view the interface stats and see the number of errored packets received etc.

Can you explain how better cable than this, say your mains cable, does make a difference; and yet there’s nothing better than the mains cable?

That like accepting that a Rockhopper is better than an Apollo, but there is no bike better than a Rockhopper.

think of it like a bottom bracket. Holds 2 important bits of your bike together, a really really cheap one might be rubbish, but beyond a basic shimano bb (say, £15?) the extra spend (royce, king, hope, etc) makes absolutely zero difference except for adding bling to your bike

@cynic-al

Can you explain how better cable than this, say your mains cable, does make a difference; and yet there’s nothing better than the mains cable?

Yes - as @sillysilly has already posted:

This guy made Hifi back in the day that would set the average person back the deposit on a small house. His article explains it better than anyone else I’ve heard:
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm/blockquote >

In summary you just need the cable impedance to be well below the speaker's impedance, cheap bell wire will have a relatively high impedance except on short runs, mains cable will have low impedance in the lengths used by most people. It is not that hard to understand.

 

Auditioned a CD player years back, and salesman said he just wanted to try some new speaker cable that had just come, would I mind – of course not and he proceeded to change things over. There was probably £300 difference between what he had originally and there was definitely a noticeable difference – mind would not say ‘better’, just different – definitely more bass, more weight and more presence, but I actually preferred the original sound. So yes they make a difference, but its subjective if that difference is ‘better’ or not..

If either you shifted position or the speakers moved position during the cable switch, then that would much more likely explain a difference in bass response. Controlling the bass response within small rooms (with a 'large' room being a concert hall) is very difficult. Even leaning forward to listen 'closer' could have that effect. In the Hi-Fi world, room acoustics is doesnt' seem to be given the same priority as it is given in professional audio. It will hugely influence what you hear from your system.

The mains twin & earth that seems to be recommended: are we talking about the solid core stuff or the multicore? Because the solid core stuff must be a bugger to tuck behind the amp and speakers without pushing them about.

Physics says no. Audiophiles say yes.

Advantage of mains cable is it's easy to coil up as its round, slight disadvantage is it visually looks the same as cables carrying power and is bulky compared to he actual wire core due to the double insulation.

QED 79 strand is still over £2 a metre from most places. I've run a load of cable through two houses and bought reels of TLC's 79 strand 35p a metre on a 100m reel, 63p a metre cut to length. (though interestingly it's described as copper covered aluminium now - I'm sure it used to be pure copper)

@BigJohn

are we talking about the solid core stuff or the multicore?

In audio terms there is no difference; but as you note in practical terms multicore is easier to use. But from the audio perspective the key issue is the c/s area of the conductors being enough to give a low impedence.

Never mind Cougar's bike, does the James Randi foundation still offer the million quid prize for this? I know that they used to and to the best of my knowledge no one ever managed to claim the prize.

@5lab - that's a very different analogy, and not relevant IMO.

@J-R you mean resistance?

@dmorts:

If either you shifted position or the speakers moved position during the cable switch

"If"...neither would happen in any half decent demo.

Yes, it’s common knowledge that the more  a cable costs correlates to better sound quality. That’s just basic scientific fact. But what you’re all missing is the importance of getting your sound right at the source. By adding a wooden volume knob to your amplifier: "Dynamics are better and overall naturalness is improved.”

@5lab – that’s a very different analogy, and not relevant IMO.

Weirdly, I thought it was beautifully apt.

@Cynic-al

@J-R you mean resistance?

- Yes, my apologies for careless use of these terms: I should have said resistance.

@J-R a few m of bell wire is approaching 8 ohms?

@IHN the purpose of the hi fi is to sound good/accurate. The purpose of the bike is to function and endure (is what I take from 5lab's post - if you argue it's to feel good when riding, then weight would play a part too, not to mention that the more expensive BB may last longer also).

If you’ve got any digital devices, make sure you stock up on £1450 usb cables.
https://www.audiosanctuary.co.uk/vertere-pulse-hb-double-usb-cable.html
😆

WTaF? Is that a real website? o_O

you argue it’s to feel good when riding, then weight would play a part too, not to mention that the more expensive BB may last longer also).

I can't argue on the lifespan (my original post had stem instead of bb, maybe that'd be more appropriate) - but a sm-bb52 bb undercuts both king and hope bbs, weight-wise.

This isn't to say a hope bb isn't better than a shimano one. If you get on a bike and feel good about the fact that some halifaxian has spent 2 minutes machining your bb, and it makes you feel good about yourself, or your bike, then isn't that money well spent?