[Closed] Does my employer have any responsibility to my partners safety (covid)

I'm not sure the health and safety at work act specifically allows for that but you would think any decent employer would make some allowances anyway. What sort of thing would you expect them to do as ultimately it will depend how much it impacts your ability to do your job on how they see it.

The Health and Safety at Work Act does have a section headed "3 General duties of employers and self-employed to persons other than their employees."

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1974/37/section/3

How it might be interpreted in your case I don't know; it's an indirect effect and not related to anything they do as a business, other than employing you. There might be some guidance on the HSE website

https://www.hse.gov.uk/legislation/hswa.htm

Flip this around, would it be reasonable to expect your employer to take steps to protect your wife. Honestly not really, and if that was the case where does that liability stop, flu, HIV, measles, Any other random disease you could pick up at work.

I've got to ask - how do you envision someone contracting HIV at work?

I’ve got to ask – how do you envision someone contracting HIV at work?

Ask the former health secretary for some guidance?

Treating a casualty / performing first aid (badly)? It was clearly hypothetical though.

Ok, bad example, administering first aid perhaps? In no reasonable world does your employer have responsibility for protecting your partner from you catching a disease commonly circulating in the population. During the pandemic when when shielding was a thing maybe but now the extent of their liability is to risk assess your safety and reduce, not eliminate, the likelihood of you catching it. As with all H & S reasonableness is the test. Given Bojo is likely to abandon all precautions from the 19th I'd say an employer will have negligible responsibility for your partner's welfare In this regard.

Yes, the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 covers members of the public also.

But, the wording is "as far as reasonably practicable". I.e. not every risk can or has to be eliminated entirely. If the government's guidance is basicly on the premise that post vaccine roll out the risk (severity x likelyhood) to the population at an acceptable level then what can you ask them to do?

There's a general rule* that work has to be demonstrably safer than the outside world by a factor of about 10. So the odds of a fatality on site is about 10x lower than the odds of a fatal car crash on your daily commute. And members of the public 10x that again. So in order be 'safe' your employer could be aiming to demonstrate that she's 100x more likely to contract elsewhere than from you. Which may well be a reasonable argument if your vaccinated and she's not still remaining isolated at home.

*Not a legal one, but alsorts of fancy risk models, matrices, formulae and rankings all boil down to roughly that factor (and the odds of a serious injury nicely fit in at about 10x the risk of death, and the likelyhood of multiple fatalities is roughly 10x lower than a single one so the numbers all tie together nicely).

@dafydd17

I’ve got to ask – how do you envision someone contracting HIV at work?

Potential for it with a needle stick injury.

The joy of the unknown, Hepatitis B & C tests at 6 weeks, 3 months & 6 months. HIV at 3 months. Plus the blood sample for later processing at onset.

Mine was sustained on 16/06/21 and it'll all be looming over me for the next 6 months.

Doesn't look like the person who inflicted it will give consent to blood tests so I'm in it for the 6/12.

I’ve got to ask – how do you envision someone contracting HIV at work?

Possible in the line-off work I do with dirty druggie bastards discarding their needles that end up in watercourses. Or even when I worked on the council with drug needles thrown away in parks often around play equipment.

As mentioned, attend any H&S course and the wording is 'reasonably practicable' to protect you while at work. Issuing a full hazmat suit and decontamination shower isn't reasonably practicable to teach a class. Not unless you are teaching at Porton Down?

I doubt a right, a decent employer will do a risk assessment but expecting them to offer anything but basic steps is unlikely IMO. Can you be reasonably moved to a non public facing role? otherwise its precautions at home - good hygiene etc etc

Not sure where your rights actually are.
My Oh works for a large Archaeology company, they actually offered her extended work from home (sorting finds not digging the garden up) as she told them I have asthma and she commutes on public transport.

Ironically at the same time my company were expecting me to share a van with someone who thought it was fine to store a part smoked ciggy in the tyre tread of the van or sit on a pavement with hands in the pidgeon shit, roll a fag then wonder why he was ill on a regular basis.

They could argue that use of your lateral flow tests was sufficient duty of care if she is concerned. But no, they don’t have a duty of care to her beyond their care for you during your work.

When I read your post I thought, "no not a chance", then when someone mentioned thalidomide I remembered a case where a company were found liable for asbestosis on the wife of an employee which was most probably caused by her washing her husband's overalls. However, in those cases there would clearly be an obvious causal link and very unlikely to happen by other routes. In both cases, the consequences are also pretty catastrophic. Whilst Covid can be very nasty, and obviously does kill people, lots of people get mild symptoms, or indeed no symptoms.

Presumably, your wife is not going to live in total isolation. My entire team have been working from home since it started; and a month ago have brought a few people back for one off face to face meetings, socially distanced etc. We are never returning to normal and will end up with a hybrid model, most people in 1 day a week. Some have been very resistant to just meeting 2 other colleagues, because of "underlying health conditions". That is pretty hard to stomach when I know that they've met up with family members indoors, been to a pub for a meal, etc. We are "being sympathetic to the views of the employee" at the moment, but the clear message from HR/H&S dept - as soon as gov say we can start returning to offices they can think again.

So even if you ask for a special risk assessment if the conclusion is that they can't provide adequate protection to your wife that could mean you are out of a job. If someone working in the snickers factory develops a peanut allergy, you wouldn't expect Mars to pay them to not work there. If the school/LA determine you being in a classroom is too much risk, then I'd honestly expect they may say you can't be a teacher anymore. I guess you might want to balance up what's worse for you / your wife - the risk that you get exposed to covid (fairly high - but as you've shown not certain) and then pass it on (as a double vaxxed person relatively low), and that your wife gets big sick (will depend on her health but its not 100% even in the most vulnerable) vs you being out of work.

As an aside: I know there are some people who can't be vaccinated, but I've encountered some people who have assumed they shouldn't be vaccinated without actually seeking medical advice, and worryingly one who sought advice from their GP and was told not to, but happened to mention it to the consultant pharmacist at a chronic health clinic who said, that's bollox, there's a written protocol for people in your situation: you probably shouldn't have Pfizer, but AZ is fine (it may be the other way round - it relates to one of the non-active ingredients) and had a needle in her arm before she'd left the building!

Thanks for all the replies. Lots of things I'd thought of. I can see the risk of a conclusion that I can't teach. I like the risk chain as laid out by Poly, very much the way I think.

In the end I think it comes down to what the rates are locally and in the college. I'm meeting with health and safety on Monday. I'm sure at least they'll under take to keep me updated on rates.

My wife works walking dogs so her occupational risk of covid is nearly zero. She is on the town council and hopes she can be kept distanced at meetings going forward. She been inside with my parents but distanced and they are very low risk.

My questions to the college will be can i teach in a mask and be distanced from students? If not all the time then when rates are high. Currently we all teach in masks and are distanced from students. Can we run a system where I know which students are testing, some schools do this, we don't

Going forward if rates stay high then I might have to look at tutoring or teaching online. It would be a huge blow as I love my job but probably do able financially, the loss of pension being the biggest issue

She has been to vaccination clinic and they declined to inject her. A pharmacist friend said this was the right decision. She has been referred to a allergy clinic who are slowly looking into her case.

You do know dogs and cats are known Covid carriers?

From just the other day https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57666245

Can you teach in a mask? Why, masks, unless the full clinical ones, offer you little protection, they are there to stop you spreading the virus into the air.

Can you teach in a distanced way, maybe, but certainly in most schools it's been difficult to maintain true social distancing even at the height of the pandemic, will your students respect social distancing when the rules are gone, probably not.

Can you know who is testing, doubt it GDPR etc. And why would it make difference, you won't be able to pick and chose who to teach and I really wouldn't rely on LF tests to be accurate.

Define what constitutes high right rates, where you teach, in your borough, in your county, could easily be high in your area due to one contained outbreak, could be relatively low but tearing through your students.

I think you are seriously over thinking this, you really have two choices, take the risks (mitigate as best you can at home, take daily tests etc.) Or find another job.

PS there is evidence dogs can pick up covid from humans, whether it can go the other way I don't know.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57666245

can i teach in a mask and be distanced from students?

That sounds like a reasonable adjustment, I'd ask the school. Worse they can say is no.

Can we run a system where I know which students are testing

That sounds a lot less likely, I'd expect them to run the same system for everyone.

Good luck, I hope it all works out well.

@thisisnotaspoon - the HASAWA reference to members of public is surely more directed at non-employees on or near site at risk from exposures? It's a while since my NEBOSH but I certainly wouldn't see this as meaning spouses of workers, unless you are getting her to come in with your lunch regularly?
Also the .gov guidance re: Clinically Extremely Vulnerable changed some time ago (sorry can't remember when but had few punters discuss it) regarding cohabitants and employer responsibilities and isolation/ shielding.

Yes a reasonable employer should endeavor to protect staff and family, but I certainly wouldn't expect it to be a given.
OP - if you have significant anxiety regarding this, that could be an angle of approach to reduce or amend your remit to less face-to-face or on-site activities.

@thisisnotaspoon – the HASAWA reference to members of public is surely more directed at non-employees on or near site at risk from exposures?

The act does cover notifiable diseases, but where it gets muddy is they took covid off the list last spring, presumably because it wasn't practicable to deal with that much paperwork.

On a wider societal note, a lot of this is going to have to be dealt with almost as a mental health issue. People are anxious about returning to work. Pre pandemic how would we have reacted to someone saying "I can't do my job because I might catch a respiratory virus", not by dealing with the virus, but by refering them to therapy, etc. Come July 19th there's going to be a few weeks of Facebook handwriging from people berating others for not continuing to wear masks, then by mid August once everyone's been to a petrol station, forgotten to take a mask and it died, it'll cease to be a routine and be forgotten about.

you really have two choices, take the risks (mitigate as best you can at home, take daily tests etc.) Or find another job.

So one choice?

Hi John. Me and the boys would love to watch you teaching physics from an air fed zorb - would be really useful to demonstrate positive / negative pressure 🙂

Seriously though - welders now have to wear positive pressure air fed masks (filtered air intake and battery powered). Were there not similar things on telly in South Korean hospitals at the start of Covid? Would need a microphone I guess.

Can we run a system where I know which students are testing, some schools do this, we don’t

Is there a key word missing there? I thought all students are "meant" to be testing?

Let's say for the sake of argument that the answer is yes. Do you want them to do anything beyond provide you with a set of statistics or a graph? What are your expectations here? Genuine question, I'm not being an arse.

Do your students (and other staff etc) use Track & Trace? Because that's essentially your risk management right there.

@qwerty

If it’s any consolation, and I’m sure you know this already, the chance of getting hep c or hiv from a needle stick injury (assuming the chap actually had either of these in first place) is pretty small. Around 1 in 300 for hiv and 1 in 30 for hep c. And the latter is totally curable nowadays even if you did catch it

Let’s say for the sake of argument that the answer is yes. Do you want them to do anything beyond provide you with a set of statistics or a graph?

Total number of cases reported in one week, in the college. One case a week the risk is small. 150 in a week is a student per class. I'd consisted dividing the house in two until it dies down

There are schools round me tracking every students tests. I'll ask if we can do the same

I think you are seriously over thinking this, you really have two choices, take the risks (mitigate as best you can at home, take daily tests etc.) Or find another job.

But is it wrong for me to explore options

I think it's covered by the Disability Discrimination Act rather than health and safety at work (assuming that the school is already carrying out all the measures specified by the government.

But even with this they only have to take reasonable measures to make alterations.  It usually takes flexility on both sides to come to a reasonable solution

But is it wrong for me to explore options

Wrong, no, but do you want to be labelled as a pain in the backside. Employers are having to deal with a lot at the moment, the education sector more than most, people with mental health issues because they've had 15 months paid leave and don't want to come back, people unreasonably worried about their own safety (despite being happy to carry on as normal outside work), people using Covid as an excuse to be a pain, people with genuine underlying health issues that they do have a duty of care to deal with. Where do you think making allowances for an otherwise healthy member of staff who needs face to face contact to do their job to protect a vulnerable partner fits into all this.

I doubt the disability act covers this, first off your wife isn't the employee and secondly I don't think being vulnerable to Covid is registered as a disability yet.

As for tracking tests, they probably should be, they won't necessarily share the data with you though, and from what I've seen among my son's cohort the actual amount and quality of testing is variable at best, might pick up an odd non-symptomatic cases or two but hardly a scientific study on infection spread.

How long would you expect to make these allowances, Covid is not going away.

Covid is not going away

True, but antibody based therapies are coming which will reduce the risk for those who can't be vaccinated - Nature article

In the OP's situation I'd be asking to use an FP3 mask during the period when the prevalence of cases is high, seems like a reasonable request to me.

@Richie_B the DDA was superceded by the Equality Act 2010.i must have missed where the OP declared any protected characteristics, his wife is not an employee and he has not identified as being a carer. So his case is highly unlikely the be considered in regards to this.
As stumphjon shows, its a minefield and we are going to be dealing with a myriad of complex negotiations ranging from actually vulnerable to the worried well. I fear the longer term mental health and physical health ramifications are going to be with us for a good while yet.

Once the majority of restrictions are removed Covid has been modelled at a peak of 3 million cases a week, it's just the hospitalisation rate is so much lower for the majority

Some hospital research showed that surgical masks were essentially useless, FFP3 masks 98% effective

All you can do is live in FFP3 masks and hope

This

Do your students (and other staff etc) use Track & Trace?

And student testing are meant to happen and I'd guess you'd be told does happen but it's not a workable option.

Eg we've got maths classes with 36 pupils in a room where kids are pretty close and ventilation is poor due to "safety windows" and the lesson is 110minutes long. Now if 1 pupils throws a positive test what do the school do? As the t&t has been passed to them at this stage. (Assume seating plan is set and followed).

The act does cover notifiable diseases, but where it gets muddy is they took covid off the list last spring, presumably because it wasn’t practicable to deal with that much paperwork

@thisisnotaspoon C-19 remains notifiable under RIDDOR:
You should only make a report under RIDDOR when one of the following circumstances applies:

"a person at work (a worker) has been diagnosed as having COVID-19 attributed to an occupational exposure to coronavirus. This must be reported as a case of disease"

Its a PITA. If we have isolated cases, then no problem, but where we have had multiple cases on site and these have proved to be close contacts, then it can only be concluded that they were exposed whilst at work so reported under RIDDOR.

(Just checked the RIDDOR guidance and it was last undated 30/06/21)

While I sympathise with the OP here - MrsMC is a frontline social worker and doing house visits throughout the pandemic, usually to the kind of folk who aren't the type to follow the rules - there's not a lot you can realistically expect or do.

my employer has been brilliant at managing risk. I’ve still not been in a room with a student with Covid to my knowledge let alone been a close contact.

It sounds like your employer is taking reasonably practical steps already. I presume your employer is also providing regular LFT tests to staff. In your position I’d want to be taking at least one test daily, if not more. Not perfect, but reduces the chance of you coming into contact with your wife if you do have covid-19. Many employers would meet costs of extra tests as being ‘reasonably practical’.

I'll just update in case this comes up on Google later. College health and safety team were great. I can continue to distance from students, they are all over 16. so thats isn't to hard. Probably the most useful thing is that they will supply ffp3 masks which seem to offer really good protection in NHS trials. I managed to teach in one for 2 hours yesterday. I can have unlimited lateral flow tests

Good employer.

Agreed, nice to see the OP and the employer being sensible.

To the o/p ever wondered about shop staff, public transport drivers and cleaners as well as tradesmen,and many more who have worked all through the virus, most have families, as well as older parents,we used common sence, and followed advice, also no company or organisation can accept responsibility for family members it would be like leaving a blank cheques on every seat on the bus, every day for years, it cant happen,and wont happen, workers are responsible for their own safety,helped by H and S laws and company rules, with a big heap of common sence.

But under the current endemic claims culture, people will rattle the cage to see what falls out there way, instead of just changing jobs, and according to boris there are huge numbers of vacant jobs out there.

Probably the most useful thing is that they will supply ffp3 masks which seem to offer really good protection in NHS trials. I managed to teach in one for 2 hours yesterday. I can have unlimited lateral flow tests

Make sure fit tested for one.

Make sure fit tested for one

Can you expand on that

Make sure it fits properly, if it doesn't it won't work, do you have beard? If not you need to keep your stubble under control, to be effective it needs to fit snugly.

If not or If so? Do beards provide protection?

Beard = Covid Secure

I've just had my team face fit tested. Only 3 passed the FFP3 and only 2 passed the FFP2 test out of 8 people.

Face fit test basically uses a little machine hooked up to a mask to see how well it ensures what you breathe goes through the mask rather than around it rendering it useless.
Beards can be a big issue, you can get bigger masks which cover more of the face and head if you have a beard but it does start to look a bit crazy.
If you can be fitted for one go for it, if you have a beard shave it off. I’d rather breathe safely than persist in having a beard.

I’d rather breathe safely than persist in having a beard

Quitter!

If in Scotland(possibly rest of UK also, I don't know) you can pick up some test kits at your local vaccination point.

Can you expand on that

Yes, sorry. You need to make sure the type and size seals well on your face. Not everyone can get a good seal. They test by using a spray while you wear the mask, with a hood over your head. Slowly increasing the amount of spray, if you can taste the spray within a certain limit then it's of no use.

It also demonstrates if you now how to wear it correctly, rather than just being handed a mask.