[Closed] Does anyone want to debate gender politics and workplace sexual harassment?

I don't see the point of debating it when you have deliberately excluded the term 'sexual harassment', which is the subject that the article/report is dealing with.

Shut up you big girl.

I don't see the point of debating it when you have deliberately excluded the term 'sexual harassment', which is the subject that the article/report is dealing with.

It was unintentional and now fixed.

That said, the harassment doesn't have to be explicitly sexual for it to be 'sexual harassment'. It also relates to any pejorative reference to gender.

A survey of 1,500 women saw 52% cite the problem and also found a third had been subjected to unwelcome jokes and a quarter experienced unwanted touching.

I doubt 25% of men would have been touched in an unwanted way... Be interesting to see the results, and if there were would they be in a position to say oi stop it thats wrong.

my (female) boss has touched my knee and called me 'babe' a similarly uncountable number of times.

I've sprained my wrist so my hand-wringing is considerably curtailed.

This article isn't actually about 'harassment' it's about gender politics and power and the data was only collected to try and leverage that power.

Don't know where you work but I've not yet had a workplace where women had much power collectively. Even where there's been the odd female boss (and yes they were odd) the junior women still had a fair bit more shit than the men to deal with. My wife's a woman BTW so I do get to see what she has faced.

So was it good for you? Just something you had to endure? Felt you couldn't speak up?

Was it good for me? Is that meant to be funny; is the issue of 'sexual harassment' something that is fair game for making fun of if the person experiencing it is a man?

For the record I don't like it one bit, it makes me feel uncomfortable but I say nothing because I don't want to politicise the situation and spoil what is otherwise a good working relationship.

I'd be slightly worried about a colleague who couldn't get through a day without doing something like that.

But if it's a woman who has this problem then it is something we take seriously?

The collective reactions here illustrate my point very well. I'm not saying that the results are wrong; that these things don't happen and that they aren't something we should take seriously.

My point is that it's not one confined to women but no one takes the resverse situation seriously.

I work in an environment which is about 85% female and I suggest you toughen up a bit princess.

[i]My point is that it's not one confined to women but no one takes the resverse situation seriously.[/i]

There are reasons for this, that someone else will have the time to explain to you better than I can.

I spend the whole day dealing with perjorative gender based "jokes" that i find demeaning.

Lucky MrsMC goes back to work in a fortnight and my nightmare will be over.

It's because you are a man in a world where men have held the balance of power for ever.
You know this, but appear to be desperate to argue with someone.

There is no doubt the problem exists and IMO much more of an issue for women than men. However, its in the TUC's interests to make the problem as high profile as possible, so a statistic like 52% is nice and catchy.

Having spent decades working in a primarily female environment I found women [u]can[/u] be equally vicious and discriminatory, they just do it in a different way. One management team I worked with were universally referred to as 'the muffia', even by a gay colleague, because of their manipulative approach to 'managing' people and keeping morale low ("idle gossip is the discourse of the oppressed"). I put it down to management structures, processes and widening inequality rather than a gender thing.

jambalaya - Member

However, its in the TUC's interests to make the problem as high profile as possible, so a statistic like 52% is nice and catchy.

They paid YouGov to rig the results ?

How do you know this stuff ?

.

IMO more of an issue for woemn than men

Are you sure ?

Shut up you big girl.

I work in an environment which is about 85% female and I suggest you toughen up a bit princess.

I've sprained my wrist so my hand-wringing is considerably curtailed.

With notable exceptions (Ernie take a bow) most of us would not be able to understand the problem as we're mainly men. I would also surmise that those comments come from people who I hope would intervene when they observed harassment taking place in their workplace

Stoner - Member
I've sprained my wrist so my hand-wringing is considerably curtailed.

I would join in further than this post, but seeing as supporting the cause of equality is often described as above on STW I won't bother. STW can be a place of huge positives with so much care and empathy. Unfortunately, its biggest weakness is shared with the world at large. Trying to support equality based on gender, sexuality, race, origin is seen as wet and fluffy rather than acknowledging that inequality is not justifiable.

I work in Engineering, so women are just a theoretical concept....

With notable exceptions (Ernie take a bow) most of us would not be able to understand the problem as we're mainly men.

I have no idea what that means - I have expressed no opinion on the issue. Although I did point out that the OP originally made no references at all to 'sexual harassment', after which he edited both his post and the thread's title.

[quote

]So was it good for you? Just something you had to endure? Felt you couldn't speak up?

footflaps - Member

I work in Engineering, so women are just a theoretical concept....

Frustratingly, there are definitely too few women in engineering.

The few women engineers I've worked with have been a fantastic addition to the team, not just in terms of their working knowledge but because they think about things differently to men. It changes the way problems are looked at & often results in a more thorough analysis of a problem so you end up with a better solution.

I work in education, mainly primary and early years.
Therefore men are usually a vague memory in the work place...

I've never experienced sexual harassment at work, although I was once asked by a bloke at a very senior level if I was interested in a bit on the side (I declined). I have seen evidence of bullying behaviour (towards various work mates and towards me) though, and women are just as capable as men of that. It's usually sexual harassment that gets reported in the media though.

It's because you are a man in a world where men have held the balance of power for ever.
You know this, but appear to be desperate to argue with someone.

Well '[u]some[/u]' men may have held the balance of power for ever. I'm not one of them.

I think that judging all 'men' in this way (and this is how these stories are reported) is as bad a judging any group's behaviour as homogenous based on the actions of a few.

but because they think about things differently to men. It changes the way problems are looked at & often results in a more thorough analysis of a problem so you end up with a better solution.

Stumpy, do tell me more about how women think differently to men. Suggesting that would go hand in hand with thinking that just maybe, different sexes are more adept at different tasks and that isn't allowed to be suggested.

Was it good for me? Is that meant to be funny; is the issue of 'sexual harassment' something that is fair game for making fun of if the person experiencing it is a man?

For the record I don't like it one bit, it makes me feel uncomfortable but I say nothing because I don't want to politicise the situation and spoil what is otherwise a good working relationship.

That is very clearly sexual harassment. However it is also fairly unusual for a woman to do that to a man in a workplace imho. It is however not that unusual for a man to do that to a woman in a workplace. And that is the nub of the issue. Thread closed.

geetee1972 - Member 
Always a contentious issue and since it's the summer and relatively slow at work...
TUC Research says half of women have been sexually harassed at work

[img] ?90b54a29ae7576876697ff46cf251911848f20d6[/img]

Or as the lady I work with said, "at some point in the 15 years I've worked I can answer YES to that question"...

Probably would be better with it quantified a bit better.

Well 'some' men may have held the balance of power for ever. I'm not one of them.

S'cos you're a big girl. QED.

On a slightly more serious note;
Bullying? Wrong and I'd be down on that like a ton of bricks.
Harassment? Wrong and the same applies.

Men talking about sexism... A bit like white people claiming racism; I'm sure it exists, but I'd need to see the evidence.

...and don't forget, women put up with that shit everyday, all their lives...

makecoldplayhistory - Member

Stumpy, do tell me more about how women think differently to men. Suggesting that would go hand in hand with thinking that just maybe, different sexes are more adept at different tasks and that isn't allowed to be suggested.

How? God knows - well, I doubt even he in his many and varied forms knows how, to be honest!!

I just know that you'll have a group of male engineers working on a problem/issue/new design whatever and one of the women engineers will get involved & say 'how about trying X/Y/Z?' and it will generally be along a train of thought that none of the blokes have suggested or thought about. And I know you could say that is down to the individual, but there does seem to be a tangible difference.
It also creates a different team dynamic; which can obviously be bad as well a good, but I have only experienced good.

None of the women I know have been touched up by a work colleague....when I was 17 and working part time during 6th form, the female manager came and ****ing gave me a back rub whilst I was working the cash register.

And none of my female friends (except my wife) find it much of an issue - but if I went and did that I'd be all over the front of the Daily Mail for noncing.

Remember guys, being a pervert or objectifying people is only an issue if men do it - because we have all the power and when women do it, it's to take back some of that power....apparently....according to feminist bloggers everywhere.

The lack of evidence for female abuse is because it's under reported by males.

[i]"and one of the women engineers will get involved and say 'how about trying X/Y/Z?'"[/i]

[img] [/img]

The level of hypocrisy in the responses here is gobsmacking.

[img] [/img]

You started it...

I'm seeing a bit gender bias the other way to meet diversity targets. It's an odd situation.

Bill & Teds Law with the Wheaton clause.

"Be Excellent to Each Other" and "Don't be a Dick"

If everyone did that there's be no need for any such discussions about any kind of discrimination or harassment.

If you have a problem with the diversity you are a problem.

As for the figures - I'd have expected a higher figure given the attitudes of most of the blokes I've worked with.

The BBC just posted an article on the subject and did very well to present a balanced view:

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37032941 ]BBC article here[/url]

The point I've been making is this.

• Yes sexual harassment happens.
• Yes it is possible (though not certain) that you're more likely to experience it as a woman than a man.
• This is not a 'mine's bigger than yours' problem - prevalence makes no difference to how much of an issue the problem is and it's just as much a problem for the men who experience it as the women.
• The fact that 'some men' have historically held the balance of power in the work place does not make it OK for us to denigrate the experience of men in general who encounter this problem nor does it mean it's OK to pass it off as not worth worrying about. That just makes you a hypocrite.
• Sexual harassment is actually nothing to do with gender and everything to do with power and sexuality; gender is not the causal factor and so only focusing on the female experience of this problem, and excluding the male perspective, is gender politics and has more to do with power and influence itself than it does a genuine desire to create equality.
• Reporting the problem as being something that ‘women’ are likely to experience at the hands of ‘men’ is reductionist and implies bias and prejudice. I am no more likely, as a man, to be guilty of sexual harassment as a Muslim is of being a terrorist or black person is of being a drug dealer.

Still sounds like you work in IT and have created an ad hominen reasoning because some lady boss once felt your knee.

Bill & Teds Law with the Wheaton clause.

"Be Excellent to Each Other" and "Don't be a Dick"

If everyone did that there's be no need for any such discussions about any kind of discrimination or harassment.

Still sounds like you work in IT and have created an ad hominen reasoning because some lady boss once felt your knee.

You're being a dick. Don't be a dick. People will like you more if you're not a dick.

Shrugs.

So why didn't you say all that to begin with?
Chimp.

Does it matter?

What is intersting is the general attitude and response to the suggestion that sexual harassment isn't just something that men do to women. That gives insight that's valuabe.

What is intersting is the general attitude and response to the suggestion that sexual harassment isn't just something that men do to women.

What I find interesting is the standard response to mistreatment of women is whataboutery.