Connect jnr has been charged with letting his mate use his moped with no insurance. There's no denying he's guilty but this was two young lads mucking about in a park and ride car park well out of town at 23:30 with no intention of actually going on the road and not realising what they were doing or the potential consequences.
He's looking at 6-8 points and a fine. Does the judge have any discretion or is my son going to get done for at least 6 points? He's got a little part time job but he's just left school waiting to start college so earnings aren't much more than pocket money (he's 16)
I've tried phoning a couple of solicitors about a letter of mitigation but they want him to go and see them. I'm just wondering if it's worth trying or if employing a solicitor will be throwing good money after bad
Dunno.
Private Land ?
Council Land ?
Either way if plod caught them the judge would just apply sentencing based upon the laws broken and the direction from the CPS.
Motoring offences are strict liability (IIRC) therefore fairly standard sentencing policies applied.
Could be wrong, and don’t know about points applied...
having been in this situation many moons ago.
take the 6 points and the fine.
I know from bitter experience that if you take a traffic offence to court, then the judge will use his discretion, but it'll only be in one direction, and it won't be the one you want
My advice would be to take it on the chin
Public car park so may as well have been on the road although but it’s fairly secluded on the edge of an industrial estate and they had no intention of going on the actual road
That’s the kind of info I’m looking for, if the Judge doesn’t have any wiggle room on the sentence there seems little point employing a solicitor.
I’m not suggesting the solicitor goes to court, my son’s going to plead guilty. It just whether it’s worth writing a letter to try and keep the penalty as low as possible
Won't he get a ban if he gets 6 points or is that just newly passed drivers?
A friend had a mistaken un-insured incident many years ago - he had been insured on a friends mothers car. Returned from Uni after a term away, drove car, pulled in for random check and the friends mother had changed the insurance and not told him/he didn't ask.
Went to court, pleaded guilty but managed a couple of letters of support and positivity about his character. He still got 6 points but fine was properly minimal.
Be nice.
The 6-8 points you've suggested is already at the lower end of the sentencing scale for Section 143 offence.
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/item/no-insurance-revised-2017/
So he needs to dress up smart, plead guilty, show remorse and grab that with both hands...
Basically you may need to present the mitigation you've put forward (not on a public road, no risk to other members of the public) just to achieve that.
if the Judge doesn’t have any wiggle room on the sentence there seems little point employing a solicitor.
With that in mind, it may be worthwhile chatting to a solicitor as to whether he needs representation to make sure those mitigating factors can be properly put before the magistrates. If only to dispel the bad impression that youths ragging around on scooters are getting at the moment.
It's a quirk of the system that because he's driving a moped on a provisional he won't have his licence revoked. However he once he's 17 and passes a car test if he does anything to gain any more points he's banned
when i got done the judge apologised that they had to give me 6 points as they thought it was so unfair.
i.e. hes screwed
Mr Loophole?
The one advocating licenses and insurance for *all* cyclists?
Take the points and the fine.
He goes to court apologises explaining he meant no malaice thinking he could cause no harm to anyone in and empty car park and he is sorry.
£250 please and I’ll sign for him or he can save the money he’ll pay a solicitor who will do pretty much the above for him.
He’s learnt a hard lesson.
It does seem steep for something most of us did in our youth and just got a ticking off from the friendly bobby on the beat with a 'don't let me see you doing this again or there will be trouble'
However at least he is young so the points will be gone in no time and also if the judge and the system don't act like superior twunts he may just think twice before doing something stupid and motor related in the future that could get him into far more trouble or worse
get him to shop his mate for taking without permission 😉
It depends on how the procedure works. IANAL- however I received this advice in a comparable situation:
1) In those sentencing guidelines above it is possible that its a bannable offence.
2) They cannot ban you in your absence.
3) Often there is an initial closed hearing to decide what action to take, here they could do 6 points fine whatever, but they could decide to ban so if they consider a ban, then they have to summons you, this means adjournment and more court time expense etc.
3) So when he get the first summons or NIP or whatever. If there is an opportunity to plead guilty by post do so.
Include mitigation, apologies, explanation of misunderstanding of public/private land, you were teaching your mate to ride "off road" etc. Admit guilt, but most importantly if you know the court date, make an undertaking not to ride from that date so that the court can ban you in your absence.
4) Judges think what a good boy for saving us time and money and being honest and hit him with the minimum.
ps 5) Find out if it really is public/private land, possible way out anyway?
Connect jnr has been charged with letting his mate use his moped with no insurance.
I'm confused about this. I assume that jnr had insurance for him to ride the moped so what offense has he committed? His mate, the one riding the thing, is the one that was riding without insurance.
Apologies, I should have done the 30s google that it would have taken to find the answer to this.
Willingly letting someone drive/ride without insurance is viewed as dimly unless as above you suggest it was a case of twoc.
seems harsh for mucking around in a car park... still if there was reason for them to be approached but the police they must have been doing something which got their attention...
videos on YouTube? 😉
Full of sympathy for the situation he finds himself in but we have a health club and small supermarket backs onto my house, and youths hooning a fizzy motorscooter around it late at night screeching tyres is a royal pita. I know in this case it's an out of town park and ride but 'mucking around in a car park' isn't completely harmless.
the magistrate has little discretion over points but a fair amopunt over the fine
My mate who used to be a magistrates court clerk said they get fed up of all the bullshine excuse given in mitigation and if the magistrate is in a bad mood rubbish excuses get yo a greater fine. If you plead guilty by post the mitigation is read out in open court. What my mate advised me to do when I got caught at 99 on the motorway many years ago was " don't bullshit, make the magistrate laugh"
So my plea of mitigation was
" there was a young man from Edinburgh way
Who drove down to England one day
A speed camera he passed
Driving far far to fast
Now he is sorry and will have to pay"
I got a result. Minimum points and fine. It a high risk strategy tho
if you don't feel you can risk this strategy then use the plead guilty by post ( assuming you have one) to simply state the facts and don't be tempted with anything fancy
Its certainly not worth getting a solcitor involved. Certainly use the plead guilty by post option if you have one.
It is often suggested that the conditional offer of a fixed penalty is the best offer you will get. That will be £300 (payable in 28 days) and six points. If he isn’t offered one (then it could be worth suggesting he would have accepted one if he had and it’s not his fault he wasn’t - if accepted the sentenced can impose the equivalent), or you decide to go to court the sentencer has to impose at least 6 points unless there are special reasons not to. The most common special reason for insurance cases is a genuine reasonably held belief that they were insured. It would be very difficult to argue that he reasonably believed his friend was insured. Medical emergency, moving a vehicle a very short distance to clear an obstruction etc might be special reasons too - clearly these don’t apply - really the law exists there too because people mucking about in car parks, especially inexperienced riders may well present a risk to pedestrians or others cutting through the car park.
whilst this is a huge thing for you/him it will be one of many similar cases the court hears that week. By all means he should go (is he still at school? Attending in school uniform may be better than a suit which may make him look older/wealthier than he is!). Keep the mitigation brief and believable. Certainly highlight factors that highlight the limited risk but really that is the absence of agrivating factors. If he has little means then absolutely highlight it - it’s HIS means not yours which matter. He will be offered time to pay (if he is still at school they may accept £5 per fortnight). His pleas of being skint will be more credible (bearing in mind he has a bike which uses fuel, tax,insurance etc) if he saves up between now and the court case and states how much he has saved and willing to hand over “today” (having it in cash emphasises the point). It could well be six months before the case calls so at 5/ft he’d have £130. That will be unusual and gain credibility.
one point worth considering - if they are prosecuting his friend too - is that prosecutors will sometimes consider a “deal” where only one of them pleads guilty (the court will not be interested if they share the cost behind the scenes - but don’t suggest it out loud!) - this would be the only task worth considering employing a solicitor for, but it’s unlikely to be a net financial benefit although one of them would save six points. Negotiating this without a solicitor is likely to be messy, difficult, or impossible - especially if you don’t know your way round the courts.
You think court is going to be bad, wait until the insurance renewal comes in!!
A nephew was caught in his new (to him) uninsured BMW while speeding, insurance only valid from his next birthday in 2 days time. The car had to be sold, no company would touch him and his insurance went up to £4k for an Astra with a small engine.
and the outcome was?
I found out from a Police forces twitter feed that they have lists of drivers who have been disqualified and been done for no insurance etc and they often do a bit of proactive Policing and drive by the offenders address to see if they can catch them driving and to make sure any cars at the address are all correct with the paperwork etc.
His case isn't until the 20th
went to see a solicitor who reckoned there was a chance with the right fiscal that if the mate pleads guilty then he might go easy on my son
Has to be worth a try, had a quick look at insurance over the weekend. With a clean licence he could insure a car for about £1k, with 6 points there was only one company and they wanted £8.5k!
For anyone interested he was found not guilty. Solicitor wouldn't/couldn't go into detail but I reckon he's a very lucky lad
Just the bill to look forward to now!
Solicitor wouldn’t/couldn’t go into detail but I reckon he’s a very lucky lad
It’s not what you know, it’s who you blow?
Looks like the bank of dad may well be taking a beating. Fair play to you for supporting him through it though, I know of a few parents who wouldn't have done the same. Does annoy me though that the exact same case could come up and without a brief it would be six points and do not pass go.
ouch. do you mean judge, fiscal, or sheriff though?
connect2 wrote
For anyone interested he was found not guilty. Solicitor wouldn’t/couldn’t go into detail but I reckon he’s a very lucky lad
Just the bill to look forward to now!
ouch. do you mean judge, fiscal, or sheriff though?
Don’t know TBH, I think the solicitor said fiscal
Kcal - at this stage it will have been the fiscal, as I alluded to earlier they are often not that fussed about pursuing two prosecutions if they can get one quick conviction.
Wrightyson - some fiscals are actually pretty good and faced with two guilty pleas from unrepresented accused will say they would have accepted one, and drop the one they are least fussed about. Far from certain though; and technically he did commit the offence.
connect2 - I’d be interested to hear a ballpark how much the cost was and some indication of how you found/picked the solicitor. Assuming they were in the court anyway there was likely less than an hours work involved (and I’m being generous and including the time spent on writing you a letter with the bill!).
