[Closed] doctors, sports physio's, chiropractors, experienced knowledgable types

Kidney infection.

Hmmm - yes, could be kidney. Maybe best pop to the doctors.

chiropractors..... experienced knowledgable types

Hahahaharrrrrrr

nice oxymoron.

A back muscle?

£60 please.

DrP

Edit- I refute my original diagnosis. I wonder if you've caught a chill in your kidneys? It's almost as fatal as going out with wet hair....

Hahahaharrrrrrr
nice oxymoron.

No. You're just a moron 🙄

Well.. I woke in the night for a pee, and afterwards started having spasms in and around the effected area that were painful and strong enough to stop me breathing.. the pain came in waves and with me gasping for breath in between each wave it was a scene not unlike the delivery suite at the maternity unit..

The doctor arrived about 6am, by which time the pain had eased off a little..
His diagnosis is that it's probably either back pain or kidney problems

What a relief, I'm glad that's settled then

🙄

Try a voodoo witch doctor... As reliable as a chiropractor, as many hours education, as likely to suceed, and more goat entrails - so you get a nice BBQ when he's finished...

My back problems manifest as either an inability to breathe and severe pain in my left chest or the collapse of my right knee... So back pain, in my experience, doesn't have to hurt your back... Hope the doctor comes up with something a little more helpful...

Genius. Did he do a simple urinalysis to test for infection? What was his plan?

It could be spasm of the quadratus lumborum muscle but from the history you've given i would ask for blood, urine tests and a possible ultrasound scan for stones. Any history of cholesterol issues? Have you got sweats/temp/fever?

Helios - Member
Try a voodoo witch doctor... As reliable as a chiropractor, as many hours education, as likely to suceed, and more goat entrails - so you get a nice BBQ when he's finished...

Another idiot who knows nothing about chiropractor education but feels free to slag it off. Come and see me - you might learn something 🙄

You're just a moron

Another idiot

Nice. Do you talk to your "patients" like that too?

Nice. Do you talk to your "patients" like that too?

No just people in forums who have no idea what they're talking about 😀

Apologies, but it does rile me somewhat. And I haven't been out on my bike today cos of the crappy weather!

Another idiot who knows nothing about chiropractor education but feels free to slag it off. Come and see me - you might learn something

Conversely; another arrogant alternative 'medicine' practitioner who assumes that everyone else is ignorant.

Tell me, do you practice straight chiropractic or are you a mixer?

What complaints would you recommend chiropractic for?

I'm not arrogant at all, anything but. I just don't like being denounced as a 'witch doctor' by people who clearly know very little about what modern chiropractors go through to qualify. A four year full-time masters degree, with 1 year mentored post graduate training before you are a full doctor of chiropractic. Very similar subject matters to medical doctors in the first three years plus a year treating patients in a training clinic. Anatomy, neurology, physiology, radiology, clinical diagnosis, psychology, functional management to name a few. Not just manipulation.

Fair enough there's some dodgy chiropractors out there not doing any favours to our profession but that doesn't make us all like that. You get good and bad health practitioners in all areas.

Fwiw I am a 'mixer' - I take a multidisciplinary approach and will refer when needed. I don't claim to treat 'subluxations' or anything there isn't evidence to support. I am trained in soft tissue techniques that most physios will use, including functional rehabilitation and I recommend chiropractic treatment for most musculoskeletal complaints.

I'm baffled as to why you would be wanting to buy a new build. I've not seen anything built in the last 10 years that was anything other than pokey, badly laid out, poorly constructed and on marginal land in the unknown end of town.

Actually sounds like renal colic (kidney stones) rather than an infection....

Drink plenty, if it continues I'd pop to the GP to ensure your kidney function remains sound (blood test)....they should follow local kidney stone guidance.....

DrP

Well, that was an old clip board item that pasted there......!!

DrP

made perfect sense to me..! 😀

gonna head down to the GP tomorrow and ask for some tests

See if chiropractors stopped calling themselves doctors, even if it is doctor of chiropractic, they would probably gain a lot more respect. They only use Dr as it is not protected in law - it should be.

Dr GLupton1976....

mulv1976 - Member

I'm not arrogant at all, anything but. I just don't like being denounced as a 'witch doctor' by people who clearly know very little about what modern chiropractors go through to qualify. A four year full-time masters degree, with 1 year mentored post graduate training before you are a full doctor of chiropractic. Very similar subject matters to medical doctors in the first three years plus a year treating patients in a training clinic. Anatomy, neurology, physiology, radiology, clinical diagnosis, psychology, functional management to name a few. Not just manipulation.

Fair enough there's some dodgy chiropractors out there not doing any favours to our profession but that doesn't make us all like that. You get good and bad health practitioners in all areas.

Fwiw I am a 'mixer' - I take a multidisciplinary approach and will refer when needed. I don't claim to treat 'subluxations' or anything there isn't evidence to support. I am trained in soft tissue techniques that most physios will use, including functional rehabilitation and I recommend chiropractic treatment for most musculoskeletal complaints.

Sorry for the delay in replying, I've been out all afternoon.

Well, your opening gambit was to call someone a moron, and you followed up by making presumptions about the knowledge of another "idiot." Hence, I felt you came across as arrogant.

I don't doubt there's a lot of training. Lots of things require training, homeopathy for one. A friend of mine has been training for a couple of years now to be a reiki practitioner.

If you don't claim to treat 'subluxations' and ignore all that vitalistic nonsense (which I applaud, incidentally), surely what you've got left isn't actually chiropractic? You're basically offering, what, therapeutic massage and physiotherapy under the guise of chiropractic? Isn't that a little misleading?

We've had this discussion on here before. One of your colleagues made the assertion that historical chiro is, and I quote, "about as relevant as pre-antibiotic era medical practice is to todays level of allopathic medicine." I asked what defines a chiropractor in modern day as opposed to similar practices, and never got a reply. Perhaps you could clear this up?

If you don't treat anything that isn't backed up by evidence, ie anything where efficacy of chiropractic isn't proven beyond placebo, then presumably you only treat lower back pain? What other "musculoskeletal complaints" are you treating?

I do wonder if "modern" chiropractic needs a new name which is more appropriate to what it is they do. If you want to distance yourself from woo-peddling bone crackers, it seems a bit self-defeating to be practising something different in their name.

Actually the doctor title should only be used if you have a doctorate i.e.. a phd

Medical 'doctors' shouldn't use it either but its largely due to historical public perception/convention.
I don't use the title 'dr' btw in anything in case it misleads people. Others do but its personal choice. The BCA has advised against it for the reason I have stated.

Also - what is people's fascination with "sports" physios? I work as a physio. I work in elite sport. I would never call myself a sports physio. I know the physios who work for the SRU, PFA and Institute of Sport - they do not call themselves sports physios either.

Riding a bike slowly to a cafe and back is not sport either....

Mulv1976 well said about the Doctorate thing!!!
Mind you I would put physiotherapists into the same bracket as chiropractors!! Or at least the one's I have met! And I have checked out qualfications prior to visiting .. oh and GP's! Now they are idiots ... I have a lump Dr: "so what do you think it is?" mmmm why the f*** am I hear? Cancer, blood clot, bruise?? give me a clue..

Why would you put physiotherapists in the same bracket?

Maybe I didn't explain I put them in the same bracket (for me) as "rip of merchants who don't do anything". Those are just the one I have experienced and I've seen 4 or 5 in my life. I appreciate there are good ones out there but it seems anyone half intelligent can get a qualification (like most uni courses) and set up a business with referrals. JMO (from experience) not trying to pi** people off.

I for one have received better treatment from a chiro or physio compared to any of the numerous GPs I've dealt with.

Personal recommendation is best for chiro and physio.

For the course I did you needed 5As at Higher or 4As at A-level to get anywhere near an interview. I appreciate that the route to qualification in England is a year shorter, has lower entry requirements and produces less able graduate physios though.

oh and GP's! Now they are idiots ... I have a lump Dr: "so what do you think it is?" mmmm why the f*** am I hear? Cancer, blood clot, bruise?? give me a clue..

I'll let you into a little secret of my profession:
90% of the stuff I see day to day is absolute crap. Benign,pointless, no-meaning-whatsoever crap. I couldn't give a damn if I never saw your lump again - nothing bad would happen. Never Ever.

But...if when you came in and said "what's my lump" and I were to say "it's nothing you moron*, pi$$ of and come back when you've got cancer" That wouldn't go down very well, AND (here's the money shot...) plenty of people worry deep down about stuff like cancer/tumours etc, and they don't really care [b]What[/b] the lump is as long as you can reassure them it's [b]not[/b] cancer (or any other worry they may have).

Hence the key to being a good GP is to have these 'consulting skills' in order to identify people's worrys and concerns.
Granted, some people do get annoyed by the 'direct approach' your GP adopted, but on balance they probably find it works to identify [b]Why [/b] somebody may be coming to see them with what the text books would label as 'absolute tripe'.......!

DrP

*im not labelling YOU as a moron here, btw!

But...if when you came in and said "what's my lump" and I were to say "it's nothing you moron*, pi$$ of and come back when you've got cancer" That wouldn't go down very well, AND (here's the money shot...) plenty of people worry deep down about stuff like cancer/tumours etc, and they don't really care What the lump is as long as you can reassure them it's not cancer

Yes, that what a friend's GP did. She died of it 6 months later.

Not nice news.
Of course the above only applies if you're in a position to rule out cancer as a cause of said lump....

DrP

Mind you I would put physiotherapists into the same bracket as chiropractors!! Or at least the one's I have met! And I have checked out qualfications prior to visiting .. oh and GP's! Now they are idiots ... I have a lump Dr: "so what do you think it is?" mmmm why the f*** am I hear? Cancer, blood clot, bruise?? give me a clue..

To be fair, there are shocking GPs, chiropractors, physios, nurses etc all over the place. There are also some bloody good ones too.

Well, your opening gambit was to call someone a moron, and you followed up by making presumptions about the knowledge of another "idiot." Hence, I felt you came across as arrogant.

I know. I did apologise for that 😳
My kids got me up at 6.30 today and no ride due to the weather = grumpy.

I just get fed up with the Chiro bashers though who don't realise how much training we have to do. I already had a Maths degree (no-one can call that easy) when I trained as a chiropractor and I found the chiropractic masters far more difficult due to the long hours and sheer volume of work. No disrespect but I'm pretty sure reiki doesn't involve four full-time undergraduate years of study.

Tbh I don't really want to get into a big debate about chiropractic on here - I've done it all before and I got an earful for spending too much time on my phone. Have a read of this: http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2012/11/the-royal-college-of-vestigial-victorian-fairground-mystic-bone-setters.html

If you read all the discussion (there's a fair amount) there's plenty of argument, but also some good cited evidence for some of the conditions we treat as well as some comments from a guy I graduated with (and myself).

Ok I did say I appreciate I am generalising but unfortunately that is what humans do when they have bad experiences. The amount of peopls on here who think coppers earn too much and are corrupt aare down to negative experiences.

DrP I agree to point but maybe 4/5 GP's in my surgery need bedside manner practice. I completely appreciate you see lots of morons with ridiculous ailments but a GP will see from my records on their computer I barely go to the Dr so should possibly deal accordingly. I dont actually know why I am bothering writing rhis as I appreciate their are good and bad eggs in every walk of life unfortunately when it comes to GP's, chiros and physios I have had bad experiences.

I completely agree that more doctors/medical staff need to up their interpersonal skills - its (in my opinion) more of a 'modern' thing in the shift from 'doctor cented' consultations, to more 'patient centered'... However,when trying to come across patient centred it can sound a bit "tell me want you want, and I'll give it to you", which an also be damaging to health.....

Anyway - how is the lump?!

DrP

I have used chiropractors, does the job for my back problem when it occurs-- but like all things, some are much better than others-- if you find a good one, you know it ...

unfortunately when it comes to GP's, chiros and physios I have had bad experiences

If you are having this many bad experiences of a variety of health workers is it not possible that the common link is at fault in some way?

Your expectations perhaps?

Thanks for asking Drp still there and still sore!
Lol at Lista that would be my stock response but no as moved on, and got treatment elsewhere which cured relevant affliction.

I don't really want to get into a big debate about chiropractic on here

Understandable.

there's plenty of argument, but also some good cited evidence for some of the conditions we treat

Would you care to cite some in particular?

My knowledge of chiropractic is from reading the leaflets at my mother's chiropractor while I was waiting for her treatment session to finish. The emphasis was all about "energy flow" and such mysticism - it put me right off it. But from what you say, [b]mulv1976[/b], there's some medical science behind it? In that case I might reconsider.

[b]yunki[/b], a mate of mine had something similar - I would say a kidney problem is strong possibility. Hope you get it sorted quickly.

Well quite.

Traditional chiropractic is based on nonsense, its original creator was toying with starting a religion based on his theories.

Modern chiropractic, I'm frequently told, has no bearing on its roots. Which begs the question, "well, what is it then?" and I'm still waiting for a sensible answer to that. If there's "medical science" behind it, I'm sincerely all ears. Far as I can tell (based on what actual chiropractors have said on here) it's a combination of physiotherapy, massage, and telling people everything's going to be ok.

The emphasis was all about "energy flow" and such mysticism - it put me right off it.

Aka, the placebo effect.

Tai chi is a different animal. I don't really want to derail the conversation (further) here, but woo aside there's a clear benefit to exercising.

No, it isn't a placebo. There is real benefit to be had from improving your posture.

I for one have received better treatment from a chiro or physio compared to any of the numerous GPs I've dealt with.

Did he try to cure any migraines by realigning your arse muscles?

Best site ever: http://www.quackwatch.org/

I have to refrain myself from lashing out and murdering chiropractors or homeopathy practitioners with the nearest blunt object whenever I meet them.

Oooooh, there's some cynicism on here tonight! I won't argue ... due to my nervous disposition. 😉

No, it isn't a placebo. There is real benefit to be had from improving your posture.

I was referring to your second sentence. I don't disagree with the first (largely because I'm physically broken because of poor posture).

Now they are idiots ... I have a lump Dr: "so what do you think it is?" mmmm why the f*** am I hear? Cancer, blood clot, bruise?? give me a clue..

Generally this is because GP's are concerned with allaying any anxiety you have about something in particular...eg cancer....diagnosing lumps is difficult and GP's are there as your primary port of call to refer you onwards if there are red flag symptoms that cause them concern.

GP's are not walking House MD's who can tell you on the spot if you have cancer, they effectively think in terms of probabilities.

Lastly, if your doctors a jerk off ask to move to a different GP.

I was referring to your second sentence.

Did he try to cure any migraines by realigning your arse muscles?

Who said anything about migraine??

Just the arse manipulation, then.

Ah, fair enough then!

My bad TBF, I wasn't clear.

that what a friend's GP did. She died of it 6 months later.

Here's the deal....

Statistically this is going to happen because there are people who will get various things that do not throw up red flags....I had a lump in my arm once....cyst....lumps in my ear lobes....cyst....the doctor could tell what they were from experience.

BUT there will on occasion be someone that has something that resembles what I had but then ends up dying 6 months later from it.

Now do you want to pay for hundreds more MRI/CT scanners, pathology staff, medical staff that can take biopsies etc....because if you don't then there is a limit to the amount of people that are sent for testing.....patients have to be prioritized....and someone like me with my 98 percent certain cyst is not deemed a high enough risk to go ahead of other people on a waiting list.

And to compound things further.... if we started scanning/biopsying every single complaint that patients had then the risks associated with testing them might start outweighing the chances of finding something.....so you end up with more ill/dead patients than you had before.

I have to refrain myself from lashing out and murdering chiropractors or homeopathy practitioners with the nearest blunt object whenever I meet them.

Lol. Some anger issues perhaps?

Would you care to cite some in particular?

I have copied these from the discussion I mentioned. Bear with me - I've tried to do it on my phone and its a bit awkward:

“Patients with chronic low-back pain treated by chiropractors showed greater improvement and satisfaction at one month than patients treated by family physicians. Satisfaction scores were higher for chiropractic patients. A higher proportion of chiropractic patients (56 percent vs. 13 percent) reported that their low-back pain was better or much better, whereas nearly one-third of medical patients reported their low-back pain was worse or much worse.”? Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics, Nyiendo et al (2000).

“In a Randomised controlled trial, 183 patients with neck pain were randomly allocated to manual therapy (spinal mobilization), physiotherapy (mainly exercise) or general practitioner care (counselling, education and drugs) in a 52-week study. The clinical outcomes measures showed that manual therapy resulted in faster recovery than physiotherapy and general practitioner care. Moreover, total costs of the manual therapy-treated patients were about one-third of the costs of physiotherapy or general practitioner care.” ?British Medical Journal, Korthals-de Bos et al (2003).

“There is strong evidence that manipulation is more effective than a placebo treatment for chronic low-back pain or than the usual care offered by general practitioners of bed rest, analgesics and massage.” ?Spine, Van Tulder and Bouter et al. (1997).

“…improvement in all patients at three years was about 29% more in those treated by chiropractors than in those treated by the hospitals. The beneficial effect of chiropractic on pain was particularly clear.” ?British Medical Journal, Meade et al. (1995).

“Manipulative therapy and physiotherapy are better than general practitioner and placebo treatment. Furthermore, manipulative therapy is slightly better than physiotherapy after 12 months.” ?British Medical Journal, Koes et al. (1992).

“…patients suffering from back and/or neck complaints experience chiropractic care as an effective means of resolving or ameliorating pain and functional impairments, thus reinforcing previous results showing the benefits of chiropractic treatment for back and neck pain.”? Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics, Verhoef et al. (1997).

“Cervical spine manipulation was associated with significant improvement in headache outcomes in trials involving patients with neck pain and/or neck dysfunction and headache.”?Duke Evidence Report, McCrory et al. (2001).
The results of this study show that spinal manipulative therapy is an effective treatment for tension headaches. . . Four weeks after cessation of treatment . . . the patients who received spinal manipulative therapy experienced a sustained therapeutic benefit in all major outcomes in contrast to the patients that received amitriptyline therapy, who reverted to baseline values.”? Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics, Boline et al. (1995).

“[Elderly] chiropractic users were less likely to have been hospitalised, less likely to have used a nursing home, more likely to report a better health status, more likely to exercise vigorously, and more likely to be mobile in the community. In addition, they were less likely to use prescription drugs.”? Topics in Clinical Chiropractic, Coulter et al. (1996).

“Chiropractic care appeared relatively cost-effective for the treatment of chronic low-back pain. Chiropractic and medical care performed comparably for acute patients. Practice-based clinical outcomes were consistent with systematic reviews of spinal manipulative efficacy: manipulation-based therapy is at least as good as and, in some cases, better than other therapeusis.”?Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics , Haas et al. (2005).

First contact chiropractic care for common low back conditions costs substantially less than traditional medical treatment and “deserves careful consideration” by managed care executives concerned with controlling health care spending.”?Medical Care, Stano and Smith (1996).

“The overwhelming body of evidence shows that chiropractic management of low-back pain is more cost-effective than medical management, and that “many medical therapies are of questionable validity or are clearly inadequate.” ?The Manga Report (1993).

Bronfort; A report into the effectiveness of manual therapy, as practiced by chiropractors, manipulative physiotherapists and osteopaths for various common musculoskeletal disorders such as back pain and other health problems Effectiveness of Manual Therapies: the UK Evidence Report was published in February 2010. This found evidence that spinal manipulation/mobilisation is an effective treatment for acute, subacture and chronic low back pain; migraine and cerviocogenic headache; cervicogenic dizziness; manipulation/mobilisation is effective for several extremity joint conditions; and thoracic manipulation/mobilisation is effective for acute/subacute neck pain. The conclusions were based on the results of systematic reviews of randomised clinical trials, widely accepted and primarily UK and US evidenced-based clinical guidelines, plus the results of all RCTs not yet included in the first three categories.

NICE Guidelines; In May 2009, The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) published new guidelines to improve the early management of persistent non-specific low back pain. The guidelines recommend what care and advice the NHS should offer to people affected by low back pain. NICE assessed the effectiveness, safety and cost-effectiveness of available treatments and one recommendation is to offer a course of manual therapy, including spinal manipulation, spinal mobilisation and massage. This treatment may be provided by a range of health professionals, including chiropractors as spinal manipulation is part of the package of care that chiropractors can offer.

UK Beam Trial; Back pain, exercise and manipulation (UK BEAM) randomised trial: effectiveness of physical treatments for back pain in primary care. British Medical Journal Nov 2004; 329; 1377 (doi: 10.1136 /bmj. 38282. 669225.AE)

Medical Research Council; ‘Low Back pain of mechanical origin: randomised comparison of Chiropractic from hospital outpatient treatment’; Meade et al.

Medical Research Council (Follow-up-study) Trial ‘Randomised comparison of Chiropractic and hospital outpatient management for low back pain; results from extended follow up’; Meade et al.

RCGP – Clinical Guidelines for the Management of Acute Low Back Pain (1996, 1999, 2001)

Clinical Standards Advisory Group; Backpain Report 1994.

Acute Back Pain – Primary Care Project; The Wiltshire and Bath Health Commission.

Carter JT, Birrell LN (Editors) 2000. Occupational health guidelines for the management of low back pain at work – principal recommendations. Faculty of Occupational Medicine. London. Occupational health guidelines for the management of low back pain at work – leaflet for practitioners. Faculty of Occupational Medicine. London. 2000. Waddell G, Burton AK 2000. Occupational health guidelines for the management of low back pain at work – evidence review. Faculty of Occupational Medicine. London.

Chiropractic Treatment in Workers with Musculoskeletal Complaints; Mark P Blokland DC et al;Journal of the Neuromusculoskeletal System vol 8 No 1, Spring 2000

Musculoskeletal Services Framework – Department of Health July 2006
The main treatment interventions, as recommended by the current evidence review and that of clinical guidelines is a biopsychosocial approach: a) Guidance on activity, lifestyle, prognosis and prevention. b) Physical treatments drawn from all types of manual therapy, spinal manipulation and rehabilitation exercise. c) Advice about pain control, including non-prescription medication. d) Psychosocial interventions aimed at resolving cognitive barriers to recovery.

Non-rigid stabilisation procedures for the treatment of low back pain – National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence. June 2006 States that chiropractic intervention can be used in the treatment of acute low back pain.

European guidelines for the management of acute nonspecific low back pain in primary care. 2005 Recommends the consideration of spinal manipulation for patients failing to return to normal activities.

My knowledge of chiropractic is from reading the leaflets at my mother's chiropractor while I was waiting for her treatment session to finish. The emphasis was all about "energy flow" and such mysticism - it put me right off it. But from what you say, mulv1976, there's some medical science behind it? In that case I might reconsider.

If you do a search on physiological or neurophysiological effects of manipulation (or high velocity low amplitude thrusts) you should find some interesting reading

OK, here goes so licence to scoff!

I had a foot op (used to run lots) involving bone being broken and reset. Ended up with painful foot months after the op. GP said go back to hospital so had foot x-rayed. Didn't show anything and consultant couldn't offer any explanation.

Went to chiro who diagnosed that my body was lop-sided and, indeed, when I looked in a full-length mirror I could see that it was.

Basically the operation had altered the way that my foot pronated so effectively I was now standing square.

Quackwatch - OK I admit that someone I consult with is on one of those lists. I'm an extremely cynical person, probably due to my age, but I consider that medicine does not yet have all the answers. Once again, I come back to Big Pharma.

I do read a fair amount of papers from various medical people all over the world. There's some very interesting stuff and I keep an open mind. It's helped me enormously.

Time for a good old moron-baiting session.

If you do a search on physiological or neurophysiological effects of manipulation (or high velocity low amplitude thrusts) you should find some interesting reading

Someone quick for the love of god put him out of my misery before I go on a 3 hour Pubmed binge

Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics
...
Topics in Clinical Chiropractic,

Biased in favour of chiropractic. we can discount these.

low back conditions

Established, the one area where chiropractic may be effective above placebo (though not necessarily better than other treatments).

The rest I need to be a bit more awake to research. In the meantime, would you care to field my other questions?

If you don't claim to treat 'subluxations' and ignore all that vitalistic nonsense (which I applaud, incidentally), surely what you've got left isn't actually chiropractic? You're basically offering, what, therapeutic massage and physiotherapy under the guise of chiropractic? Isn't that a little misleading?

We've had this discussion on here before. One of your colleagues made the assertion that historical chiro is, and I quote, "about as relevant as pre-antibiotic era medical practice is to todays level of allopathic medicine." I asked what defines a chiropractor in modern day as opposed to similar practices, and never got a reply. Perhaps you could clear this up?

If you don't treat anything that isn't backed up by evidence, ie anything where efficacy of chiropractic isn't proven beyond placebo, then presumably you only treat lower back pain? What other "musculoskeletal complaints" are you treating?

I had a foot op (used to run lots) involving bone being broken and reset. Ended up with painful foot months after the op. GP said go back to hospital so had foot x-rayed. Didn't show anything and consultant couldn't offer any explanation.

http://saveyourself.ca/articles/structuralism.php

Because I can't be arsed to trawl pubmed.

Also before you rant about how this is obviously all a big pharma conspiracy to put these quacks out of business... many of the researchers kicking off at chiropractors are also the ones kicking off at pharmaceutical companies....eg Ben Goldacre and his merry band of affiliates.

The rest I need to be a bit more awake to research. In the meantime, would you care to field my other questions?

No not really its late. Look at bronfort report. Chiropractors differ from physios because we learn manipulation at undergraduate level and that is our main treatment method (although our training also encompass many of the functional and soft tissue techniques they would use to compliment it).

No not really its late. Look at bronfort report. Chiropractors differ from physios because we learn manipulation at undergraduate level and that is our main treatment method.

Yeah change that to the main way you injure patients for cash.

No not really its late.

Agreed. 's cool, I'll wait, you can answer me tomorrow.

Yeah change that to the main way you injure patients for cash.

I suppose you'd do if for free if they were a Chiro or homeopath?

Look at bronfort report

From that text, Bronfort is "A report into the effectiveness of manual therapy, as practiced by chiropractors, manipulative physiotherapists and osteopaths"

So it's nothing to do with Chiropractic, it's discussing one technique used by several different disciplines. To wit, doesn't answer my questions at all.

I don't really understand why "what do you do" should be a particularly tricky question.

THis thread is steamrolling way out of control, far far away from the op......
However....

Just to look at one point:

“Patients with chronic low-back pain treated by chiropractors showed greater improvement and satisfaction at one month than patients treated by family physicians. Satisfaction scores were higher for chiropractic patients.

Now, chronic pain no longer conforms to the typical pain pathways and nocioceptive receptor involvement - its almost fair to say that chronic pain is a state of the mind, rather than the physical body....
Chronic pain teams focus on this point with counselling, mood management etc etc.
Often what these people require is regular help and support though their situation.

Back to the point above - I'm not saying spinal manipulation doesn't work (it's the area of ailment where I believe benefit > harm, as opposed to neck where harm > benefit...), however what I will say is that of all the patients I see who have confronted a chiropractor, the one bit of advice that is never missed is "come back next week"....
If I were to regularly review my 'non red flag' low back pains at a weekly/fortnightly basis, I would a)help them think they are getting better more effectively, and b)fail to manage the countless other illnesses and conditions that would be on my books.
This simply isn't feasible primary care practice....

DrP

Hi yunki how are you . What you described is an exact match to my kidney stone incident . Mine came in two episodes a couple of days apart . If you go to casualty they can push some class a pain killers up you bum which help no end.

Thanks for the concern crankboy.. I had another restless night but feeling a bit more chipper this arvo..

Turns out it's probably just a bit of a spazzy muscle that I don't really use unless I'm laying down..

I always get a bit paranoid about my kidneys though..
My uncle was last in the queue when they were handing them out and got given an out of date tin of Tesco value mince and kidneys instead..

Chiropractors differ from physios because we learn manipulation at undergraduate level and that is our main treatment method

Physios get taught manipulations at pre-reg level too, but we differ in that it is not our main treatment method.

A patent I had a while back was complaining of tennis elbow. We were getting nowhere treating his tennis elbow and his neck was absolutely fine (those who know their way about the body will understand the link). Eventually they gave up a wee mugget of information which once they were advised to stop doing what it was they were doing made thier tennis elbow go away. The bit of info - they were going to a chiropractor once a week to get their neck manipulated.

The quackery cost the patient aroun £200/month and the NHS god knows how much in treatment and diagnostic costs.