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You will get points and a fine not a ban. My first speeding in over 30 years was 72 in a 40. Guess who failed to see the very small change in speed signs on a motorway. Once you’ve missed the first sign, you just see the hard shoulder and think “motorway”. On the other access motorway road they painted 50 on the carriageways! Six points and a bike-sized fine. The police officer was very nice and asked if I was OK.
Pretty much this. My young cousin drove his first long range journey from Portsmouth (where he bought his new car) back to Cumbria. Being a young, not very worldly lad, he didn't really understand average speed cameras and so, unbeknownst to him, had managed to accrue enough points for an outright ban (and then some!) in a single sitting.
It went to court and he received 11 points and a £4k fine.
You will get points and a fine not a ban. My first speeding in over 30 years was 72 in a 40.
Yes, but 72 in a 40 is not double the speed limit and eligible for a ban. 70 in a 30 is.
Overconfident of you to choose that setting to explore that idea. 🙂
TBH, I found the whole process to be condescending from beginning to end. One guy was alright, the other was an arse.
The whole purpose of SACs is to disabuse a bunch of drivers of the notion that they’re great and there’s nothing really wrong with their behaviour.
There's probably some truth in that.
At the start they went round asking everyone individually why they were here or why they were speeding or some such. The amount of excuses - some lame, some quite scary - was incredible. I said I screwed up, sorry. I think I was the only one to admit any sort of blame.
At the start they went round asking everyone individually why they were here or why they were speeding or some such.
Seems like the wrong approach - singling people out in front of others just breeds defensiveness and shuts down learning. Shows how the quality of the SAC is down to the people running it. Mine (a while back now) was the polar opposite, and while there were a few there who clearly got nothing out of it, I certainly did and so did others.
I've done one SAC after visiting Bath, missing a 20 mph sign and instinctively thought I was in a 30 mph area. Poor observation, no excuse.
The course was better than I expected. Not condescending or judgemental at all. A lot of good stuff on hazard perception and eye opening stats about the massive differences in impact injuries between 20 and 30 etc. The presenter was a civilian contractor, but was an ex traffic cop, so had credibility.
A few people didn't engage, scowling and arms folded or trying to make clever points (politely but convincingly rebuffed). Those that did learned some stuff and possibly even went away a little less likely to speed. Not saying I'm cheap or easy, but free coffee and biscuits all day might have swung it for me.
Yes, but 72 in a 40 is not double the speed limit and eligible for a ban. 70 in a 30 is
Not quite true. Double the speed limit doesn’t automatically put you in a different banding of offence. Basically there are 3 bands of offence based soley on speed.. the band c (the highest) offence is 21 mph over the limit. So over 50 is in a 30 is exactly the same banding as 80.you can expect a ban and a hefty fine for both. There are additional bandings if there are additional circumstances involved however, ie speeding past a school at 50 whilst towing a caravan, driving dangerously etc, is viewed less leniently than doing 50 in an area of road works with no road workers
@tired, assumed you had to go to court. Did you receive a criminal conviction resulting in a criminal record
Double the speed limit doesn’t automatically put you in a different banding of offence.
Is that right? Either it's changed since I last had cause to look or it's different in Scotland (or of course, I'm simply misremembering)
Basically there are 3 bands of offence based soley on speed..
So 91 in a 70 is treated the same as 41 in a 20? That's crazy.
So 91 in a 70 is treated the same as 41 in a 20? That’s crazy.
Unless that 70 was a motorway. Then it's potentially much more heavily punished.
It cost me €80 and 3 pts (ireland) to discover they can get you when facing the other way. I didn't think they could until the letter dropped in the post. I saw the the van in the distance on the otherside of the road pointing the camera away from me and into the oncoming traffic. Apparently I was going 113kmph in a 100kmph as I passed him 😳. You may be ok if it's a dual carrageway and the camera had a poor sight line etc, mine was a wide open single carriageway.
Apparently I was going 113kmph
Serves you right for using that foreign muck, would've gotten away with in poles and schillings
@cougar . It appears that the band c limit on a 70 road is in fact 30 over
obviously the court will treat you more harshly the higher you speed, but the bandings are the same and you’ll be facing the same potential penalty
i assume it comes down to discretion. Doing 101 on a motorway is by no means as bad as 60 through a housing estate imo. Which to my point about my own case, I don’t personally think that doing 70 on an empty dual carriageway with zero roadworks is anywhere near as bad as if I did the same speed in a built up area. The same rules and limits apply, however one would clearly be aggravated by dangerous driving so the fine and length of ban would (hopefully) be far worse
No I didn’t go to court. Pleaded guilty online to the automated court proceedings and paid up. Funny but the actual summons arrived six months to the day of the offence as initial notice was from the police officer. I had presumed that over 30 mph over the limit would be consideration for a ban. But six points was the offence. First (ever) offence. No mitigation, just accepted it. And no criminal record for speeding convictions. Such is life. Everyone makes mistakes occasionally.
some get to do speed awareness courses. Not in my case. And I am above average - passed my advanced test at 18. And retested since 😇
Overconfident of you to choose that setting to explore that idea. 🙂
The whole purpose of SACs is to disabuse a bunch of drivers of the notion that they’re great and there’s nothing really wrong with their behaviour.
To be fair, my SAC increased my confidence of my own abilities and knowledge. I was amazed with some of the folk on my course, the well to do gentleman who acted like a spoilt toddler throughout the course and the woman who managed to crash into one of the other attendees cars whilst parking were a particular highlight 😀
i assume it comes down to discretion.
I suspect the time for discretion is before the ticket is issued.
Doing 101 on a motorway is by no means as bad as 60 through a housing estate imo.
... which is why I thought it was crazy.
Which to my point about my own case, I don’t personally think that doing 70 on an empty dual carriageway with zero roadworks is anywhere near as bad as if I did the same speed in a built up area.
You're probably right. But the fact remains that you broke the limit and that will come with guidelines on how to sentence (as you linked to). A judge / clerk won't deviate from that without good reason and I highly doubt that "it was quiet" will impress anyone no matter how safe you - or they - may subjectively think it was.
I was amazed with some of the folk on my course,
Same. When at the end they asked us all individually what was our primary take-away was I wanted to say "this lot have ably demonstrated the need for regular retests."
I've posted this before but,
No-one knew speed limits. Photo of an road without limit signs, what's the limit? "Umm... 40?"
No-one knew what a single / dual carriageway actually was.
One woman regaled of a tale of how she almost killed a cyclist, thought this was hilarious and quite a few others laughed along.
A young lad who admitted he didn't know any road signs, he just learned the ones on the theory test.
And on, and on. I left of the opinion that anyone coming away from it going "wow, I learned loads!" probably shouldn't have been driving in the first place.
But the fact remains that you broke the limit and that will come with guidelines on how to sentence (as you linked to). A judge / clerk won’t deviate from that without good reason
100 % agree. What I meant is that the court will use their discretion when deciding the punishment within the guidelines. Which in my case will start at a heafty fine and 6 points and could rise to a ban of 56 days, assuming they agree there were no aggravating circumstances. I’m hoping to be at the lower end of that sentencing scale, I wouldn’t be so confident of that if I’d done 70 down a residential street
I’m not going to even try to come up with some mitigating reasons, I cocked up and wasn’t paying attention. Speaking of which..
Pleaded guilty online to the automated court proceedings and paid up
I didn’t think that was possible, thought you had to attend even if you were pleading guilty with no mitigation. Given I have no excuse that would hold water with any court, I’d rather just take whatever punishment I get rather than attend in person. If that’s the max penalty then so be it, makes no odds to me whether I end up losing my license for a week or 2 months.
Is that right? Either it’s changed since I last had cause to look or it’s different in Scotland (or of course, I’m simply misremembering)
There are no bandings or guidelines in Scotland.
But the fact remains that you broke the limit and that will come with guidelines on how to sentence (as you linked to). A judge / clerk won’t deviate from that without good reason and I highly doubt that “it was quiet” will impress anyone no matter how safe you – or they – may subjectively think it was.
The clerk has no role in sentencing (other than recording it). The Summary Sheriff, Justice of the Peace or Stipendary Magistrate (depending where in Scotland he was) has discretion and no formula or tables to follow. Statements about traffic conditions, reason for the offence and the circumstances of the offender are always taken into account (beware the "plea in aggravation" - where you think it makes you sound better but the bench hear "I wasn't paying attention and think I'm a driving god"). The sort of words tpbiker is using are commonly presented in Scottish courts either in written or spoken form. They won't get you off, but a carefully thought-out and genuine statement might make a difference. If the traffic was light, the weather was good etc the prosecutor should say this - but speeding offences are often the least experienced fiscal so don't rely on them - give the court the facts (if you are bullshitting the fiscal will challenge it).
Unless that 70 was a motorway. Then it’s potentially much more heavily punished.
Theoretically that is the case max fine on any other road is £1000 but on a m/way its £2500. BUT I've never heard of anyone making the distinction, and its much more likely that the non-m/way is harsher punished because of the risk involved.
And no criminal record for speeding convictions.
Eh? certainly is. No criminal record if you accept a fixed penalty offer but if it goes to court (even if you plead guilty and don't physically appear in person) there is a criminal record. IIRC it is deemed spent (for Rehabilitation of Offenders Act) as soon as you pay the fine - but the record is still there.
Same. When at the end they asked us all individually what was our primary take-away was I wanted to say “this lot have ably demonstrated the need for regular retests.”
I did one about 20 years ago, and they failed 3 people on the course, all elderly men, all adamant that it was a set up and they hadn't been driving that badly. One of them had his driving assessment stopped half way through. (don't think they do those anymore?)
One lad didn't turn up in the afternoon, so i guess he failed, but nothing was said. (TBH, the way he was going on about his driving, i wouldn't be surprised if he'd been arrested for speeding on his way for a maccy d's.)
Was quite eye-opening how horrifically bad they were.
The sort of words tpbiker is using are commonly presented in Scottish courts
I’ll admit I’ve vented a little frustration on here, as I personally feel that if they hid a camera in a bush on that stretch of road they’d catch 99% of the drivers who use it. Doesn’t make it right, but it does grate a little that I’m going to lose my license for behaving no worse than everyone else (although I totally accept the argument that we are all in the wrong here and just because everyone does it doesn’t make it ok)
however that said, I don’t think for a second that the court gives 2 hoots about that, ‘everyone else was doing it’ is no mitigation and I have no intention to state it is if I have to appear. Instead I’ll rock up, admit I’ve been an arse that wasn’t paying attention, say sorry, and hope for the best
tp - I think you are worrying about nothing. Just as likely they were focussing on the other side of the road.
Definitely don't imply its a cash generator or that everyone does it but your 'keeping up with the flow of light traffic' wording is common (now if the PF says, you overtook 7 other cars in 4 seconds you might have an issue, but if as described it paints the scene for the bench). IF it is 70 in a 30 you want to put forward everything you can in mitigation (like your 30 years clean license, the weather, etc), along with spelling out what a ban means for you. For some people a ban is a pain because they won't get to play on their sportcar for 3 months, for others its loss of job, and house, and the kids being uprooted to a new school, and 3 hour round trips on public transport to visit a terminally ill mother etc. Even if your life doesn't revolve around car access, it is NOT a foregone conclusion that 70 in 30 = Ban. The reason this is not a table of fines and points in Scotland is it should not be a formulaic exercise, but instead should take into account the circumstances of the offence and the offender.
If it does go to court it will be 2024 before you are there so you have plenty of time to come up with words!
Was quite eye-opening how horrifically bad they were.
The guy sharing my table who overtook me in his souped-up Astra van in a 30 zone doing at least 45-50 certainly was. In my class, one guy was failed in the first 10mins or so for constantly interrupting and saying how unfair it all was.
What happens if you fail a SAC?
I thought you got a bigger fine and less time to pay it?
Probs wrong though
One lad didn’t turn up in the afternoon, so i guess he failed, but nothing was said. (TBH, the way he was going on about his driving, i wouldn’t be surprised if he’d been arrested for speeding on his way for a maccy d’s.)
Oh, I forgot that one. One bloke said he'd been caught speeding on the way to the course that day. (I've half a memory he was actually pulled over and was explaining why he was late. I bet the cops had a laugh about that afterwards if so.)
So alarmingly, despite my protestations that I’m a safe driver, right now I’m clearly not. Over the past couple of days I’ve noticed that I’m just completely on autopilot. Yesterday I drove to see a mate, 50 miles along a motorway, and at the end I got out and seriously had very little recollection of the journey. The day before I was driving to a Physio appointment, and despite having gone there many times before, just drove straight past the turnoff on the dual carriageway
not sure if it’s the covid I had recently, or general stress levels at the moment, but my brain is mush. General concentration levels have been very poor over the last couple of weeks so maybe this isn’t surprising but it’s a bit worrying. Will take a self enforced break for a week or two
not sure if it’s the covid I had recently, or general stress levels at the moment, but my brain is mush.
Worryingly, you'll only have noticed due to your recent experience. Most of the drivers on the road are in that state of mind permanently. So, you're probably a safer driver now than you have been for years 🙂
Worryingly, you’ll only have noticed due to your recent experience
Possibly true, but I’m pretty sure I’ve not been missing junctions to places I’ve been to many times before. Maybe I’m just more aware of it, but if I’ve spent the past 30 years driving like that then I’ve been very very lucky to not have been banned a long time ago
It could just mean the journey was dull.
It’s not that uncommon to miss a junction either.
I used to drive from North Yorkshire to London and back on a regular basis. I never really remembered any journeys as they were eventless and boring. Brain on autopilot. It's very good at that, I wouldn't worry at all.
I have reprogrammed myself to see lower speed limits as a chance to improve my fuel economy, so at least I'm happier pootling along at 50 than I was.
Speeding tickets have come through next working day for me, plain brown envelope for doing 36 in what I thought was a 40 but was now a 30 (SAC) and the other one I sold a motorbike on the Saturday, on Monday I got a brightly liveried envelope for an offence on the Sunday. I enjoyed sending that one back.
To the OP, you sound like a contrite human, I'd rather be cycling on roads with you passing me than many of the eejits I get to see. Good luck 🙂
It’s not that uncommon to miss a junction either.
It is if it's on roads you know well already.
Somewhere new to you then yes I agree.
Yesterday I drove to see a mate, 50 miles along a motorway, and at the end I got out and seriously had very little recollection of the journey
Have you tried doing a commentary as you're driving? Describe the road ahead, identify every potential hazard, note vehicles approaching from behind, in front and those approaching side road junctions, note every road marking and traffic sign etc. Yes this is all stuff you should be doing anyway but saying it out loud makes you focus on it, and when there's too much to talk about that's your cue to slow down. To start with it's blummin hard work even for 5 mins but I think some trainee police drivers have to do it pretty much from the moment they pick up the keys to when they hand them back.
Have you tried doing a commentary as you’re driving? Describe the road ahead, identify every potential hazard, note vehicles approaching from behind, in front and those approaching side road junctions, note every road marking and traffic sign etc. Yes this is all stuff you should be doing anyway but saying it out loud makes you focus on it, and when there’s too much to talk about that’s your cue to slow down. To start with it’s blummin hard work even for 5 mins
I do this now and again, it is amazing how much info there is to process, let alone in towns and cities.
I’ve been to two speeding awareness courses, and I’ve had a few points on top over the years.
These days I try to drive for smoothness and fuel economy, trying not to have to use the brakes or stop unnecessarily at junctions. It’s surprisingly hard, and makes driving interesting without having to speed.
@tpbiker, admitting you're aware your driving was worse that you thought - by acknowledging that, you're already better than the majority who drive. Have you considered an IAM assessment? https://www.iamroadsmart.com/courses/non-members-driving-assessment. Or even undertake the full IAM Advanced Driver course? https://www.iamroadsmart.com/courses/advanced-driver
I did my Advanced Driver almost 15 years ago. Eye opening at times and I'd recommend it to everyone. Without doubt made me a safer driver, mainly through improved observation and forward planning (even though before doing the course I thought I was good at both). I've always owned faster-than-necessary cars but don't drive like a dick.
These days I try to drive for smoothness and fuel economy, trying not to have to use the brakes or stop unnecessarily at junctions. It’s surprisingly hard, and makes driving interesting without having to speed.
That's a very 'IAM' style of driving. Good stuff.
I sold a motorbike on the Saturday, on Monday I got a brightly liveried envelope for an offence on the Sunday. I enjoyed sending that one back.
Oh, yes.
I once sold a Cavalier SRi to a right dodgy-looking scrote. After a bit of-to-and-fro over ID he had his mate show me his bank card. 🤷♂️ I had that V5 in the post whilst the ink was still wet. As sure as night follows day, the tickets started rolling in. I replied going "not my car" and nothing further was ever heard.
That IAM course is worth looking into, however my concern is not that I don’t know how to drive safely, it’s that I’m lacking the focus and concentration to do so
if that makes any sense?
Some of the tips above are definitely worth trying out
Have you tried doing a commentary as you’re driving?
That was part of the driving assessment that we had to do on the SAC i did, i also have to do it regularly as part of the renewal for my advanced permits at work. The old bloke who had his assessment stopped basically didn't observe *anything*, when the instruction was to start with what was your main focus and work down through the list of "things" until your main focus switched. Then start again. I kept a continuous dialogue going for 35-40 minutes, and spotted a few things that the instructor didn't (unfortunately for me, i actually ended up with a specialist from the DSA on mine, which was a bit nerve racking!).
What happens if you fail a SAC?
On mine it was just get the points and the fine, even though you've already paid for the SAC. If you failed badly there was an opportunity for additional penalties/points/court date.
Tpbiker I’m interested to hear that you consider driving on autopilot and not having any direct memory of the journey is unsafe. I have done this on occasion before on the motorway when my brain goes into autopilot mode and my mind is wandering, but I’m of the opinion that you can do this sometimes and still be perfectly safe - it’s your brain compartmentalising a skill that it’s very used to performing.
Human brain has simply not evolved to process all the data it is given at the speed it is delivered when driving. Hence people struggle to 'remember' journeys.
For many years the fastest we could travel was running, then for a few years it was horse back. Then in a very short period (in evolutionary terms) we go from say 30mph max to 4,520mph! Brain just chooses to ignore some of the signals it gets sent.
So travelling at any speed is essentially 'unsafe', one of the reasons why I look forward to the day our robot masters stop us all from driving.
I think there's a difference between actively / consciously processing everything you see on a journey and being totally inattentive. Like breathing, or regulating your heartbeat or hormone levels, your brain is astonishing in its capacity to do 'the routine' to a decent enough standard without being consciously aware. And then just going into active processing mode when it needs to. No-one's that aware of their heart rate while it's normal, but if it starts racing, then you will be.
Now, whether driving should be relegated to a subconscious activity is another matter, but the fact is that driving subconsciously is not automatically a bad thing. We have to take care that it doesn’t become too subconscious, whether by actively switching on from time to time (maybe in higher risk situations) or by ensuring we don’t actively distract (phones, fiddling with the satnav or radio, etc.). But being on cruise control on the motorway doesn’t automatically means you didn’t drive perfectly safely.
I drove 240 miles of mainly motorway on Saturday. I don’t ‘remember’ a lot of it. But I do remember being very alert and switched on when we hit a sudden queue due to a congested sliproad, I am very aware of the prick in the BMW that came up behind me doing probably 95+ as I was overtaking a middle lane hog and undertook both of us, and I clearly remember the Smart Car completely covered in astroturf advertising.
On the subconscious side of things, that’s how people are taught nowadays. My gf is a driving instructor. They follow four stages:-
Unconscious incompetence.
Conscious incompetence.
Conscious competence.
Unconscious competence.
I’m similar to theotherjonv; I did a fairly long drive on Sunday, mix of motorway and country lanes. I don’t really remember the majority of the drive, but I do remember the gf talking to me about unconscious competence and explaining the teaching/learning process behind it. But I couldn’t really remember too much of the actual journey itself.
Unconscious incompetence.
That description fits the person in the VW Golf GTD that came flying up the outside lane behind me, flashing their lights at me to move out of the way (which I didn't do as I was about to overtake a slower-moving campervan). When I completed my manoeuvre and pulled in, he floored it (comfortably doing 100mph+ on the downhill stretch of the A64 near Castle Howard) and sailed right past the clearly visible police camera van. I laughed.
Tpbiker I’m interested to hear that you consider driving on autopilot and not having any direct memory of the journey is unsafe. I have done this on occasion before on the motorway when my brain goes into autopilot mode and my mind is wandering, but I’m of the opinion that you can do this sometimes and still be perfectly safe – it’s your brain compartmentalising a skill that it’s very used to performing.
a few of my mates have said the same thing. And in my previous 30 years of driving incident free I’m sure there’s been plenty of times I’ve been in a world of my own and not crashed.
I think the issue is that right now I appear to have the attention span of a goldfish. Ie the other day I’m in a 50, I see the sign and process it, and set my cruise control to the appropriate speed. I immediately just switch off again however and let my mind wander somewhere else. There’s no lasting awareness I’m in a 50. If I hadn’t put it in cruise control I’m pretty sure I’d just have just forgotten 300 meters up the road. And bear in mind since last week I’m actively trying to be more aware, that to me is a worry
Maybe I’ve always been so inattentive, but I’m pretty sure that’s not the case
And bear in mind since last week I’m actively trying to be more aware, that to me is a worry
Don't use the cruise control so you have to think about the speed you are doing. More and more modern cars detach the driver from the driving experience.
If Sat Nav is your default way of navigating, try ditching it apart from the last bit of the journey. Route planning has become a lost art too. Sat nav is another thing that takes the thinking out of a journey.
...or you could just buy an old car! 🙂
Route planning has become a lost art too
So has nail-making.
Also, Collins' road atlas doesn't tell when traffic on the M5 is slow and you should take the M50 instead.
Now, whether driving should be relegated to a subconscious activity is another matter, but the fact is that driving subconsciously is not automatically a bad thing
Maybe 'autonomous' is a better word? You don't approach a junction thinking "right, how do I turn again? Oh yeah, best put the indicator on, where it?" and start hunting round the steering column. It's a flick of the fingers that's part of the process (hilarious clichés about certain marques aside). It's not that you're inattentive necessarily, rather there are processes you can offload as background tasks so you can pay more attention to what you're doing.
Where this falls down is overfamiliarity. There's a reason "warning, new road layout ahead" signs exist. They reworked all the one way system in the middle of Accrington a few years back, changing half of the directions, and it was utter carnage for a while because who goes looking for signs when you've driven the same roads for decades.
So update..nothing came through the post which hopefully means I got away with it!
things I learned…
I need to pay more attention on the road and not just blindly follow the cars in front, whatever speed they are doing. This has caused some massive queues of traffic behind me (the a9 to Perth has a single lane 30 restriction at the mo for 3 miles and people were actually flicking the bird at me by the time they got past😂)
Not to drive straight after covid if not feeling 100%. I noted I’d been on autopilot for a few weeks before hand. My head seems to have cleared alot since then so may have been related to the brain fog I suffered
im still not sure why there is a limit on the road I thought I was going to get caught on, I’ve been on it several times since and no one pays the slightest attention to it. But rules are rules
Anyways.. my 30 year streak of no speeding tickets looks to continue unbroken which is good
Thanks for the update. I think that there are times when we'd all benefit from the same learning 🙂
I'd not normally congratulate anyone for "getting off" with their speeding fine but it does seem like the threat of it has had a better effect on you than most folk get from their "misfortune".
I know that bit of the A9 and had much the same experience. I believe there's a flyover in need of repair and no timetable for fixing it so I don't think it'll change any time soon. The problem is, that brings the whole speed limit thing into a bit of disrepute and normalises ignorance.
Re the A9- Yep I’m not sure why they need 3 miles of traffic works there though, surely they could limit it to a mile at a time. Everyone seems to drive through it at 50, maybe that’s the idea though. If they put 50 no one will slow down at all!
There does seem to be an awful lot of road works I drive past with absolutely zero workers on them at the moment. The queensferry crossing is another where there doesn’t appear to be any reason why there is a 40 limit in place. Most folks don’t even realize there is a camera on the bridge just as you enter that bit of road.
I think better signage actually explaining why they are there (rather than a load of cones) may make people pay a little more attention because as you say folks clearly seem to just ignore them.
Maybe