[Closed] Do I bother putting the summer tyres back on the car?

I guess if you're doing it yourself then why not? Not sure it makes sense to pay someone (twice) between now and next "winter" though.

FWIW we had frost night before last, though it's a balmy 7c at the moment 😂

You cant predict the future with any accuracy, but you do have time on your hands.

You will feel like an idiot come say September and you can drive and its sunny and warm. Last year it didnt get that cold till very late in the year. When did we have a frost last year ? Dec ?

Depends where you live? As scotroutes I run winters year round (my mileage ~10k though). I thought they're supposed to give better grip from 7degC, it's not uncommon to see that any time of year in NE Scotland, especially first thing in the morning. My worry is if I ran 2 sets of tyres I'd my getting rid because they started to crack rather than road wear!

Well for the greater proportion of the year the conditions favour summer tyres. If we get a cold snap in the UK over winter it is usually only for a short period of time, a couple of days at most, before temps quickly get warmer again. If you're not on the ideal tyres for the conditions you have to drive to accommodate so choose the tyres that minimise this which I strongly suspect will be summer tyres. Don't think there was one day around her in the midlands last winter that justified the use of winter tyres at all. Not sure it even dropped below zero at all for the whole winter.

Alot of the tests you see are nonsense. There's only one facility in the world where conditions can be scientifically controlled close enough to conduct properly back to back comparisons in proper scientific conditions, and tests from there showed that summer tyres are better at temps down as low a -5 when it comes to simple friction on the surface and they performed better than winter and snow tyres - mostly due to stiffer tread blocks and larger area in contact with the road surface. If there is snow on the ground then the grip pattern and tread depth and volume has an impact so winter tyres win out. So in the UK where we don't seem to get any snow these days in most parts of the country then summer tyres are probably the best all year round compromise.

Id rather have the convenience of not swapping tyres and stick with summer tyres all round and just drive more gingerly when its particularly cold or snow on the ground and for the remaining majority of the year be on the right tyres - even on winter tyres you can't expect the same performance in winter as summer tyres on clean tarmac so you have to drive more carefully anyway full stop. Worked for me for over 20 years of driving, alot of that done back in the day when we got proper winters with snow and everything.

In other countries like Norway, they manage their roads differently and don't have a policy of clearing roads completely all the time so you will be driving on snow and ice some of the time as well as having prolonged periods of time at temps below freezing, so perfectly justified to swap tyres there...but we just don't have those conditions in the UK...not even close. Maybe properly up north in the Highlands of Scotland, but not in the milder latitudes south of the boarder.

I'm leaving it this year. Although I have two wheelsets and would normally swap myself, I previously had just the one weheelset so I'd run winters all year-round and that certainly gives better performance than the other way round. It's only an hour or two to swap them if the lockdown relaxes and we are going tobe doing enough miles to really justify the summers, but I can't see us driving any significant distance this summer.

Why not:
a) see when lockdown is lifted and you can start using your car again
b) try making a simple decision yourself
c) swap just 2 of the wheels yourself. Should only take 10 minutes and by the time lockdown finishes, either we'll be in winter (so you can save yourself 10 minutes by only having to swap another 2 wheels) or we'll still be in summer (so you've saved yourself 10 minutes by already doing half the job of fitting the summers).

We ended up leaving ours on the last couple of years, here in lowland Derby.

The car doesn't do big mileage, early morning commutes can be below 7° pretty much any month of the year but certainly Sept-May, and the extra grip in wet weather at any time of year is useful, not worth swapping for 3-4 months of the year

I swapped mine last week. It only takes 20 mins.

I swapped mine, but then the winter tires have <4mm tread and the summer ones have 6-7mm so it's probably debatable which has the most grip!

The winter ones are a lot noisier though.

I'm down to about 2000 miles a year even before lockdown so the odds of me wearing out either set are slim!

here’s only one facility in the world where conditions can be scientifically controlled close enough to conduct properly back to back comparisons in proper scientific conditions, and tests from there showed that summer tyres are better at temps down as low a -5 when it comes to simple friction on the surface and they performed better than winter and snow tyres – mostly due to stiffer tread blocks and larger area in contact with the road surface. If there is snow on the ground then the grip pattern and tread depth and volume has an impact so winter tyres win out. So in the UK where we don’t seem to get any snow these days in most parts of the country then summer tyres are probably the best all year round compromise.

I though the argument revolved around winter tyres being only slightly worse than summer tyres for grip in the summer, but better in the cold and wet? Of the order of 5% difference in the dry in favor of the summer tyre, but in the more normal cold wet UK weather is was more like 200% Vs 300% (of the dry stopping distance) in favour of the winter tyre.

I'll do ours this weekend. Spare set of wheels so shouldn't take too long.

I did see something a while back suggesting that cross climate rather than winter tyres might be better for most of the UK - but still switch to summer tyres for warmer weather

Genuinely interested in why folks actually need winter tyres at all, unless they are in far north of Scotland.

I mean normal tyres are absolutely fine for driving throughout winter on UK roads. Surely if you are talking in terms of requiring small percentage of grip improvement you are driving too fast in first place.

Aberdeenshire here.
I've got 2 sets of wheels - and nothing else to do this weekend - so why not...?

I have CrossClimate+ on my car and I can honestly say that whilst feeling a tiny bit softer in use they're as good if not better than the OEM Hankook - they're wearing significantly better and I don't get stuck in slightly muddy car parks.

I need winter tyres because I'm not a driving god.

Possibly the biggest thing is being told that below 7°c winter tyres are the better tool for the job.

If the most use the car sees is commuting in the early part of the day and later in the evening, most of the driving will be at the colder times.

We put them on the wife's car which we own but they're not fitted to my (rather similar) company car. On more than one occasion, she's been able to trundle off to work where my car couldn't make it more that 10m from the house. We're only on the Derbyshire/South Yorkshire boarder.

Although everyone on here is a driving god, and by proxy, so is the wife, the most unpredictable thing out on the roads is other people.

Swapped mine just before the lock down....but as the 4 summers needed replacing I spent £350 on 4 Michelin PS4 which have now sat on the drive for 6 weeks doing nothing #eye roll

I do like the much softer-grippier feel of the winters in the colder months on our badly pot-holed roads. Less slither and junction wheelspin (golf gtd and happens even when not driving enthusiastically on hockey-puck-hard summers). Combined with driving to the alps a few times over the last few years for skiing then it's worked well. If we weren't doing that ever again I'd probably try michelin cross climates for all year round simplicity.

In other countries like Norway, they manage their roads differently and don’t have a policy of clearing roads completely all the time so you will be driving on snow and ice some of the time as well as having prolonged periods of time at temps below freezing, so perfectly justified to swap tyres there…but we just don’t have those conditions in the UK…not even close. Maybe properly up north in the Highlands of Scotland, but not in the milder latitudes south of the boarder.

I'm curious to know whether you've tried winter tyres?

My own experience is that the difference they make throughout the winter is night and day.

Some of the summer tyres I have used during winter have been downright dangerous, and having used winter tyres for the past 6 or 7 years, there have been times I've used cars without them, in mild winter conditions, and the difference is frightening.

If I used one set all year, I know which one it would be.

And I have done. So to answer the OPs question, if you want to leave them on, they'll be fine. They definitely feel a lot softer than a summer tyre when used during the summer, but unless that road feel is a priority they work just about as well and wear at a reasonable rate in my experience.

Genuinely interested in why folks actually need winter tyres at all, unless they are in far north of Scotland.

Perthshire here - at the top of a steep hill.
Commuting to Edinburgh could see some interesting conditions on the M90 at Col du Kelty in the deep dark winter.

I've got 4 replacement tyres for my missus car in the garage, but seeing as it's not moved since mid March, I've not gone to get them fitted.

My ex-wifes Seat Altea with "cheap" winter tyres was miles better than my Range Rover Sport on summer tyres in the winter. I would take her car to go snowboarding in the Scottish Alps, winter tyres are night and day difference. The RRS with winter tyres was a driving Scadi rally McRae god machine, comical what it could get through/up

I use Cross Climates all year round for the simple reason they have much better traction in the wet. Their ability to handle snow is a bonus, but a nice one.

I live in Glasgow, there is a lot of rain and a little snow. Summer tyres all year round would be a far bigger compromise than Cross Climates all year round.

Living in Derbyshire and I'd have to go back a good few years to think of an occasion where I've thought I need more grip - and even further to remember when I couldn't make it along a road. That's nothing to do with being a driving God, I just haven't needed more grip. Maybe I've been lucky and not had to brake hard in an emergency though 🤷

Never tried winter tyres, so I'm not disputing that they can give extra grip and confidence, but whether they are needed these days, or worth the faff and cost when it barely gets cold. Yes, I get they are better below 7deg, but what margins are we talking? Most on here are more likely to be driving miss daisy than pushing the limits. There does seem to be a touch of the STW's about winter tyres akin to not owning a telly, fancy coffee machines and poncy razors 😂

Id rather have the convenience of not swapping tyres and stick with summer tyres all round and just drive more gingerly when its particularly cold or snow on the ground and for the remaining majority of the year be on the right tyres – even on winter tyres you can’t expect the same performance in winter as summer tyres on clean tarmac so you have to drive more carefully anyway full stop. Worked for me for over 20 years of driving, alot of that done back in the day when we got proper winters with snow and everything.

This is basically the exact opposite of my experience. For a few years we swapped between summers and winters on mskenneththecurtain's Yaris. The winters were miles better for grip in the cold/wet/grease/mud/snow of winter. The only perceptible advantage the summers had in summer was slightly less road noise. When the summers wore out we didn't bother replacing them, it's on winters all year round now.

Genuinely interested in why folks actually need winter tyres at all, unless they are in far north of Scotland.

In winter you can't get up the hill to our street without them, in Lancs.

Thing that's stopped me swapping is that I don't know if any of the garages are open, and it hardly seems essential for a car that currently does about 60 miles a week.

but we just don’t have those conditions in the UK

On my winter trips to Norway a lot of people where using studded tyres rather than what folk are using in the UK

Also. We’ve a number of posters on this thread now who drive on roads north of Edinburgh and in winter.

Caravelle with two sets of wheels and access to a trolley jack here in Inverness.

I swapped them round a couple of weeks ago. Since then the van has done a couple of trips to the supermarket, via a slightly longer route in order to keep the battery topped up.

If I was paying someone to get them swapped round then I probably wouldn't have bothered this year.

Id rather have the convenience of not swapping tyres and stick with summer tyres all round and just drive more gingerly when its particularly cold or snow on the ground and for the remaining majority of the year be on the right tyres

It's hard to say for sure really. It's not like you can go out and do back to back tests yourself. Driving up the motorway at 70 with snow falling, is it the tyres keeping you in a straight line, or would summer tires have managed just fine, no way to tell. Similarly I've driven with summer tyres through snow deep enough that becoming stranded by beaching the car was a concern. Could I have had more control with winter tyres, probably, did I need it in the end, no.

I bought mine part worn for £50 inc the wheels in the summer. I think there was only week of the winter where there were a few days where I though I was glad to have them. But as I was on a dayrate at the time that potentially means they paid for themselves 30x over!

Swapping over though is a 15-20minute job, the spares just live round the back of the garage. As a twice a year thing to do it wasn't a problem.

Would I bother again? I'll keep an eye out for another set, they frequently come up on ebay over the summer when someone's sold the car and get no bids. I probably wouldn't spend £350 on them as I live in Berkshire and only drive about 1500-2000 miles a year now!

I've kept the winter or 'M&S' tyres on pretty much all year for the past 10 years on a variety of cars in NE England and Highlands.

Very little difference under most conditions when driving normally/safely in the summer and way better in heavy rain where water is lying. Any frost or snow on the ground and the improvement is dramatic.

I haven't swapped mine back yet. It's on the list of jobs but not a priority one!

Genuinely interested in why folks actually need winter tyres at all, unless they are in far north of Scotland.

I mean normal tyres are absolutely fine for driving throughout winter on UK roads. Surely if you are talking in terms of requiring small percentage of grip improvement you are driving too fast in first place.

I can't believe you've said that!!! OMG. 😉

No, in Cardiff I don't need them. The Average temp in Dec/Jan/Feb is around 7c, it rarely snows, but when it does they close the schools and tell everyone to stay at home.

I'm sure Summer / Winter / All-Season tyres weren't a thing in the UK before we had a unusually cold / snowy winter about 10 years ago, maybe I'm wrong.

As you say, when it's cold / wet and miserable I slow down and drive to the conditions, I'm sure a set of Winter tyres would increase the margin of error and all that, but with a set a £1k for my car and a set of wheels not much cheaper I'm stick to using the tyres I've got.

Well for the greater proportion of the year the conditions favour summer tyres. If we get a cold snap in the UK over winter it is usually only for a short period of time, a couple of days at most, before temps quickly get warmer again. If you’re not on the ideal tyres for the conditions you have to drive to accommodate so choose the tyres that minimise this which I strongly suspect will be summer tyres. Don’t think there was one day around her in the midlands last winter that justified the use of winter tyres at all. Not sure it even dropped below zero at all for the whole winter.

everyones entitled to their opinion even if its wrong. winters or all seasons would be the tire of choice for a vast majority of the uk population. Summer tires really dont have a home any more.

I have been having the same thoughts OTS - we have done 140 miles in the last 6 weeks. How ever im going to swap them this weekend because i want the summer tires to get finished so i can get the wheels refurbed and new rubber fitted next winter before as mat points out they start to crack and fail that way bonus is ill Get rid of these bloody awful michelin premacy tires which are a lottery for grip - Hugely effected by wet and cold temps ( not even close to -5 - more like +5 and things need monitored closely)

Depends where you live, the conditions in which you usually use the car and the type of car. I don't drive very often (maybe once or twice per week before the Lockdown), but live in the countryside and in winter the temperature is about 3-5 degrees lower in the mornings than in the towns and cities. I also usually use the car to commute at 05:30 and 21:00, so it's usually colder still. I also drive an automatic RWD estate car which, with only me in the car can be a little tail happy in the snow. The Winter wheels cost me £250 with tyres and are used for maybe 1500 miles per year over 4 months. On the rare occasions where it has snowed (2010, 2012, 2015?), my car, which you'd have to admit, would be the one you'd expect to find in a ditch, has made it home just fine despite the roads being littered with abandoned and crashed vehicles. Perhaps, full tred summers would've got me there, but the Winters do seem to provide more grip.

I’m sure Summer / Winter / All-Season tyres weren’t a thing in the UK before we had a unusually cold / snowy winter about 10 years ago, maybe I’m wrong.

There weren't but then ok, but 10-20 years ago wide low profile stiff sidewall tyres for almost all cars including shopping trolleys weren't a thing either. The development of better rubber compounds and treads to help this type of performance tyre work in cold and snow is a good thing.

There weren’t but then ok, but 10-20 years ago wide low profile stiff sidewall tyres for almost all cars including shopping trolleys weren’t a thing either. The development of better rubber compounds and treads to help this type of performance tyre work in cold and snow is a good thing.

But modern cars are more capable then they were in the past in all condition?

This is basically the exact opposite of my experience. For a few years we swapped between summers and winters on mskenneththecurtain’s Yaris. The winters were miles better for grip in the cold/wet/grease/mud/snow of winter. The only perceptible advantage the summers had in summer was slightly less road noise. When the summers wore out we didn’t bother replacing them, it’s on winters all year round now.

Pretty much where we are at now. Would never have summer tyres again, cross climate or winters for is going forwards. A lot of our driving is early morning and rural, so wet, and gravelly and not gritted.

Can go as slow as you like, but I'll take the reassurance of the extra grip in case something distracts me or some other driver does something dumb in front of me.

Do we think this thread was really about Tyres, or another STWer feeling the strain of lock-down and cramming in another Covid thread by the back door?

I personally don't think we'll be under the current lock-down rules until October. There will be some restrictions, but you'll be driving before then and Shirley driving around all Summer in Winter tyres is as irresponsible as driving around in Summer tyres all winter? After-all, if they worked optimally all year, they'd just be called "tyres".

and the extra grip in wet weather at any time of year is useful,

My summer tyres are much better in the wet than my winters.

Infact they’re better in anything other than snow / ice.

Run winters all year round on the camper van and summers all year round on the car - best of both worlds.

So the simple answer is you need a van/second vehicle!?

In which case you have either shit, or worn, winter tyres.

Genuinely interested in why folks actually need winter tyres at all, unless they are in far north of Scotland.

Because sometimes it gets like this and I still need to get about. Admittedly not the last 2 winters.

Also sometimes drive to the alps and it’s a good idea in the mountains.

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Yes, how else are you going to tell anyone you’ve put your winter tyres on.

Thisisnotaspoon... If your winters are down to 4mm you might as well use the remaining legal tread through the summer. At 4mm they would not qualify as winter tyres in some northern European countries...the sipes in the tread are not normally full depth so they've probably gone.

Anyone suggesting they just drive more carefully on summer tyres in winter...it's not really applicable during normal driving.
The extra performance advantage comes into play when your doing 50mph on a cold damp road and suddenly need to swerve or brake.

Not really sure why anyone would choose to use summer tyres unless you are a driving enthusiast. All-seasons cover a huge range of conditions, we've had Nokian Weatherproof which is definitely towards the winter end of all-season, to one of the most summer biased which is the Michelin Cross Climate. The Nokian did make the handling softer in the summer but the Cross Climates really don't show any disadvantage over summer tyres, and we get similar mileage out of them compared to summer tyres.

We've also used Kleber Quadraxer and Toyo H09's (full winter) all year round, and I was happy to see the new version of the All Terrains on my van are now classed as winter tyres as the current ones are not great on cold winter mornings.

In which case you have either shit, or worn, winter tyres.

you said it - i was thinking it

1. Running winter tyres all year round will decrease your fuel economy and increase the wear rate of your tyres. The Tred and compound of winter tyres are designed to allow the rubber to move around more at lower temperatures and thus increase/retain heat and grip through friction. The higher the ambient temperature, the more malleable the tred becomes and the greater the friction/rolling resistance and thus the greater the noise and wear.

2. When the temperature drops below 7 degrees, summer tyres become harder, decreasing their friction and degrading performance.

3. All Season tyres are a combination of compounds and tred patterns which form a compromise between summer and winter tyres by lopping the extremities from both. The perform worse in snow than proper winters and on worse on track than something like Pilotsports with a very soft compound. They will also ablate faster in very hot weather (which we rarely have) and be noisier than summers due to the tred pattern and compound, but not by much. many cross climates seem to have a similar patter to the old Goodyear F1s, but broken for snow and mud clearance.

4. As for binning winters at 4mm...I think that's fine advice for snowy conditions, but for our slightly milder winters, they will still perform better in the cold and rain than even a new summer. I get rid of mine at 3mm.

This topic does get people frothing a bit doesn't it :->

Anyway as a tangent / PSA, but one that's relevant for the home swappers I've just had a halfords email with a trolley jack for £24

If it's warm and raining, summers should perform as well as winters unless it's a monsoon.

If it's cold and raining, i'd agree that winters should be better.

Thisisnotaspoon… If your winters are down to 4mm you might as well use the remaining legal tread through the summer. At 4mm they would not qualify as winter tyres in some northern European countries…the sipes in the tread are not normally full depth so they’ve probably gone.

Yep I agree they're past the point of providing a substantial benefit. Although not all countries have a 4mm limit, just as many seem to have the same limits as summer tires, or say things like legal limit on winter tyres or 4mm on summer tires in winter.

The downsides were they were noisier so given a choice I swapped (My summer tyres are goodyear efficient grip so they're about as quiet as they come).

TBH I do so few miles I suspect 2 sets of tires will either see me past the life of the car or they will perish!

If it’s warm and raining, summers should perform as well as winters unless it’s a monsoon.

I dunno, the sipes should still have an effect.

I'm sure I saw somewhere that the only scenario that summers outperform winter tires (in straight line braking at least) was on a warm dry road and then only by a fraction. In every other scenario the winters were beating them by much more substantial margins. That and they make more noise and may not suit driving gods cornering on the limits of grip rather than based on what they can see coming or on a track day because they'd probably overheat.

Daffy, I didn't say bin the winters at 4mm, just use them in summer 🙂 (although many here claim they would never dare run their tyres down to 4mm)

The less aggressive all-seasons should not wear faster, the rubber is different but not necessarily softer. The Nokians did wear a little faster but the Cross Climates seem comparable. Also I find winter and all season tyres no noisier than summers (driving a car with noticeable tyre noise intrusion from the rear).

spooky_b329
Also I find winter and all season tyres no noisier than summers (driving a car with noticeable tyre noise intrusion from the rear).

I was just going off the decibel ratings on the tyre sites, I have no personal experience of All Season tyres. I guess it also depends on how well insulated your car is. Tyre noise may be less of a factor for someone in a Mercedes S-Class with double glazing and more soundproofing than my house.

I was just going off the decibel ratings on the tyre sites,

Is that like buying an audi off its emissions figures?

I’ve just had a halfords email with a trolley jack for £24

Ooooh - timely