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...and does it even matter?
Preaching to the converted here, but currently front page on the Guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/video/2019/may/09/do-cyclists-think-theyre-above-the-law-and-does-it-even-matter-video?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboar d"> http://Do cyclists think they're above the law, and does it even matter? – video https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/video/2019/may/09/do-cyclists-think-theyre-above-the-law-and-does-it-even-matter-video?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
All depends which laws you think you are above. If a law is not there to avoid danger then what is it for and should it be removed. Any examples of which laws we should be able to ignore?
Yeah mostly... In a road context anyway, not in a 'can i go and stab someone' context 🙂
Shame, as I was going to point out that under Section 60 of the Metropolitan Police Act of 1839, it is illegal to beat or shake any carpet, rug or mat in any street in the Metropolitan police district after 8 p.m.
The video is right, as we all know, that more driver kill people than cyclists do. Drivers don't like to be delayed or see people getting "one up on them" so don't like cyclist as they are perceived to do both.
I would love to see some actual statistical evidence of what percentage of drivers and motorcyclists break the law on a daily basis. I reckon it would be almost 100%.
It's a good piece but drivers and anti-cyclists will just not listen to it.
Shame, as I was going to point out that under Section 60 of the Metropolitan Police Act of 1839, it is illegal to beat or shake any carpet, rug or mat in any street in the Metropolitan police district after 8 p.m.
EEK!
I posted that video in [url= https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/have-we-done-mumsnets-cyclists-argument/ ]this thread[/url] last week. The thread seems to have since turned into a bun fight between a far worse bunch of pathetic weirdos than the ones it sought to mock on Mumsnet. Awesome.
Car drivers have now adopted red light plus one car at any set of traffic lights.
illegal to beat or shake any carpet, rug or mat in any street in the Metropolitan police district after 8 p.m.
Not a law thing, but my house lease says I'm not allowed to shake carpet, mats etc out of my windows.
Everyone thinks they're above some laws. Most motorists will stop at pedestrian crossings even when they can see there's no-one there. But conversely, most motorists break speed limits. Funny isn't it?
Some people are above all the people - not just the law, they're practically a deity who happens to ride a bike.
No
I was riding to work with a friend last week, a friend who seems to get into a scrape worth a motorist every time we commute. This time, going down a 20mph hill he was going about 25mph so, riding in the cycle lanes, undertook a van. The van beeped at him (bad move)and a barny ensued which turned into a playground back and forth, even with the van driver making an accusation of my pal abusing his wife in a car park!
The driver was annoyed at the fact my pal was going too fast, he said speed limits don't apply to bikes - which seems to be true but may be open to interpretation. My approach would be to obey the laws of the road, his approach was that rules don't apply.
Who's right?
Who’s right?
Geex
The driver was annoyed at the fact my pal was going too fast, he said speed limits don’t apply to bikes – which seems to be true but may be open to interpretation
I'm amazed that a van driver was going at the speed limit, particularly in a 20.
Overtaking up a bike lane might not be a great idea depending on the road layout however I would place a large sum of money that the van driver doesn't have a go at every motorist exceeding the speed limit.
Also speed limits don't apply to bikes, most have no way of measuring their current speed, so your mate wasn't breaking any rules. That would be like asking the driver if his van had pedal reflectors on.
Great video. thanks to the OP.
I do not think breaking the law is good. However on some roads I cycle on the pavement and use crossings etc. Some people who ride bikes are lunatics though, but wouldn't call them proper cyclists like the people who visit this site or go touring etc.
I like being called a cyclist and think this phrase should be used for all people who are serious about riding bikes and as such are responsible. I like to think that this responsible group of people are better than average drivers too.
Also speed limits don’t apply to bikes,
No, but a cyclist who is clearly exceeding the speed limit and riding in that manner could well get pulled for a number of other offences.
I wouldn't want cyclists filtering on my left when I'm at the speed limit in town, cycle lane or no cycle lane. At least have the courtesy to overtake on the right.
I wouldn’t want cyclists filtering on my left when I’m at the speed limit in town, cycle lane or no cycle lane. At least have the courtesy to overtake on the right.
Yeah, as I said it depends on the bike lane. For all I know it could be a properly segregated cycle lane (probably not though.). And it's not filtering if there's a bike lane there. Most people would just use the bike lane regardless of suitability.
I look at all the problems there are in the world right now and I think "yeah cyclists; that's what needs sorting"
are you saying it's unacceptable to undercut cars on the left of the road. I usually do that. Surely there's no other way of overtaking, as on the right you would risk going in the oncoming lane and cars.
I like to think that this responsible group of people are better than average drivers too.
In the same way that most drivers are? 😁
Would the van driver react in the same way if it was a bus or taxi using a bus lane to the left to over /undertake?
A cylce lane is just that, a lane, so the rules regarding "undertaking" where there are distinct lanes apply, i.e. not illegal and fine if safe to do so. As for speeding on a bike, unless you kill or injure someone as a result, you've not alot to worry about:
At least have the courtesy to overtake on the right.
Why is the right more courteous than the left? AIUI both are legal manoeuvres in this instance
are you saying it’s unacceptable to undercut cars on the left of the road.
Not at all, but leftside filtering generally involves a line of slow moving traffic rather than winging it past folk going at the speed limit. I must admit the cycle lane complicates things a bit, but it doesn't strike me as a healthy option!
I wouldn't really want a bus or taxi undertaking in their lane if I was at the speed limit either, to be fair.
The right side in those circumstances is probably more about self-preservation - I assume there is a driver bias towards checking the offside for motorbikes rather than expecting faster moving traffic on the inside.
I am fine with all cyclists riding where ever they like as it is freedom to travel/ride so why impose on them?
My colleague becomes very angry when he sees cyclist in front of him while driving which I cannot understand. Why?
Slightly different scenario ... Coming from the far east driving during peak hour we get swamped by hundreds of 70cc to 150cc bikes left right back and centre. Nobody got angry ...
However, without exoskeleton the risk is on the cyclists and I am fine with that.
NO More silly rules to impose please and let people get on with their lives or die as they wish.
are you saying it’s unacceptable to undercut cars on the left of the road
At 25mph in 20mph traffic it's positively begging for an accident.
Are you capable of riding at 25mph, Molgrips? Have you ever tried it? It's no more or less dangerous than riding at 20mph in a 20mph zone and having a constant stream of cars overtaking at over 25mph which is very much the norm.
yeah. I can understand that. It's only in traffic that I do it.
@jimmy There is a law about filtering for motorcycles. It only applies to slow moving traffic. Your mate is canning it at 25mph and the van at 20mph is hardly slow, so undertaking does seem risky and unwarranted.
Highway code say "when filtering in slow-moving traffic, take care and keep your speed low." Having been to court for filtering on a motorcycle on the motorway at illegal speeds I am familiar witht eh application of the law ~hammer sound~ GUILTY!
I think the video is good at promoting debate. It raises plenty of questions that a normal rational society would deal with. Unfortunately we live in a polarised society and it will not result in a positive outcome that improves the situation.
PS Your mate sounds like a d!ck
The cyclist is perfectly in the right until the van decides to do a left-hooker without looking or indicating. Being right does you no good when you're dead.
There is a law about filtering for motorcycles.
Is there? Which law is that then?
The Highway Code isn't (always) the law, and if you were breaking the speed limit that's nowt to do with filtering.
Rush hour traffic ...
What better exemplar of safe driving could there be than Vietnam?
**** the law
Problem is some people are sticklers for rules and even though you may be doing no harm and even doing the traffic a favour, if you do something that's against the rules they'll have a go.
I posted that video in this thread last week.
Ah sorry, I didn't see that.
When I saw the video title it took me a moment to realise that it was being deliberately click-baity, but unfortunately I tend to agree that...
It’s a good piece but drivers and anti-cyclists will just not listen to it.
...without constant repetition and reinforcement of the message that we're all just people trying to move about.
Don't pass traffic at high speed on either side. The incident that got me to slow down was me bombing down the outside of a stationary queue on the South Circular (two lane section) with nothing coming the other way, when a car decided he'd had enough of the queue and swung out to do a very quick U turn. Only very fast reactions and a steep head angle saved me from a massive crash.
Yet again I've had a self righteous driver wind their window down and tell me I should be riding on a cycle lane. It's a 30 limit, I'm doing 27ish. He has plenty of time to pull along side, wind window down and have a bit of a shout. Not the first time in that area (first time on that stretch) Its a Monday lunch time so quiet roads, but people walking dogs on cycle lane which has debris all over it.
Positive its the same idiot. Some old bloke, he must have traded in his old silver merc for a black polo / golf.
Doesn't even matter if its not the law or the highway code some drivers are tools, they will always have a problem with cyclists (for balance, every single other driver passed safely and sensibly)
Yet again I’ve had a self righteous driver wind their window down and tell me I should be riding on a cycle lane.
I would guess at least 80% of drivers probably think if there is a cycle lane then the bike should be cycling in it and getting out of their way on the road as that is why the cycle lane is there etc,. so probably not a great example. Although most are not going to shout at you.
cycle lanes can be just plain dangerous, throwing you back out into traffic at funny angles. I was once told off at the traffic lights for 'wiggling my bike around' when I was on my bmx. Made me laugh. He meant this because I was pumping the frame around to go faster, not because I was riding dangerously. Some people have no idea.
Does it matter? Not in any practical sesne probably but the basic underpinning of most western counties is that we are (theoretically) all equal before the law and we don't like to see blatant reminders that it isn't true.
Why is the right more courteous than the left? AIUI both are legal manoeuvres in this instance
I thought undertaking in the highway code is not a Must/Must not situation but rather 'guidance' and it lays out the circumstances under which you may do so. Do it outside of those circumstances and you can't be charged with undertaking because that isnt an offence, but you could be done for a generic careless driving or similar.
are you saying it’s unacceptable to undercut cars on the left of the road. I usually do that. Surely there’s no other way of overtaking, as on the right you would risk going in the oncoming lane and cars.
Filtering on the left is usually ok. Filtering in the sense of “moving past stationary or slow moving queuing traffic”.
Overtaking (on the left) past a van driving at the speed limit in free flowing traffic while going at a speed above the limit is not the same.
As for overtaking, wait til it’s safe. Just like you’d like a car or van to do. Please. If you can’t overtake safely because of oncoming traffic (or whatever other reason stops it being safe) then don’t overtake. Wait til it’s safe even if it delays you for a few seconds. Just like you’d want a car or van to do.
Do cyclists think they’re above the law…
Don't think so - I think most just recognise how appalling the general system (infrastructure, facilities, laws, punishments) is towards cyclists and they'll do anything necessary to make it safer and/or more convenient.
I mean, USA has had right-turn-on-red for years and the world hasn't ended. Paris and several other cities have experimented with allowing cyclists to treat certain red lights as a give way. There's the "Idaho Stop" law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop in several US states.
Problem is that even obeying the law scrupulously is no guarantee that you'll be safe and if you're killed by a driver you can still be certain that the police and media will victim blame and treat your death as nothing more than a slight inconvenience to the law-abiding, tax-paying, hard-working motorists who were held up while your body was scraped off the tarmac.
are you saying it’s unacceptable to undercut cars on the left of the road.
Not at all, but leftside filtering generally involves a line of slow moving traffic rather than winging it past folk going at the speed limit. I must admit the cycle lane complicates things a bit, but it doesn’t strike me as a healthy option!
The road at the top of mine used to be the A350 trunk route to the south coast, and still carries a lot of local traffic, so, to slow it down a cycle lane was added to each side and the White centre line removed. At busy times, the traffic is very slow moving, and it’s perfectly possible to undertake traffic at twelve mph, or even less; I used to do it most evenings on my way home from work. Overtaking on the right would be suicidal, there’s barely two foot between the cars!
Cars would often overlap the cycle-lane, which is barely a metre wide at best; on one occasion a car I was riding alongside, at the same speed, suddenly stopped for no apparent reason, and I hit the near side mirror with my knuckles, smashing it back against the door pillar.
Fortunately I used to wear gloves with carbon knuckle protectors, so I did more damage to the mirror; some here expect cyclists to ride slower than the traffic, but I could only do that by getting off and walking!