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Mrs B has some money and has decided to purchase a chapel vestry in the village.
She is going to use it as an art amd crafts workshop for herself.
As its a cash sale and no chain etc, is it possible we can do the conveyancing ourselves?
We have been quoted £895 for legal fee, additional £300 for searches and £40 for land registry. All these figures are plus VAT. So pretty much £1500. Seems a lot of money for a £40k building.
Does anyone have any experience of diy, either positive or otherwise?
Thanks
Ian
...or cheap depending on what crops up during searches, land registry boundaries, planning searches etc. And religious buildings can have some archaic covenants!
Given the potential for stuff to go wrong I'd not be doing that.
Mrs TJ had a law degree. We looked into doing this but you still need a lawyer for some stuff and it would have saved pennies in the end
Pay a professional, especially when dealing with ecclesiastical properties
My brother did it back in the 1980's. Just a regular house though.
He had no legal training at all, just bought a book I think.
He had no issues.
Use a pro - I would use a solicitor in preference to a licensed conveyancer
Use a pro – I would use a solicitor in preference to a licensed conveyancer
I'd use a conveyancer rather than a solicitor!
Old religious properties = deffo get an expert involved.
All sorts of issues could crop up. So could the undead. (I'm actually thinking of stuff like chancel repair liability here, which is backwards but gives an idea of what might go wrong).
Old ecclesiastical property has more potential to throw up problems than a standard domestic property.
If you choose to use a pro, get a clear understanding of their liability insurances and indemnities.
Would also be helpful to know if they have a breadth of experience to deal with any 'esoteric' matters which may arise or if they would contract out this undefined work.
Have you searched for ecclesiastical property solicitors?
Absolutely not, unless you want to find out that you are liable for thousands towards the costs of replacing the church roof in a few years' time.
Conveyancing is a very competitive market. The margins are very low already. (That's also why it's often crap). I wouldn't bother trying to do it myself.
Did anyone say this was a bad idea yet?
😀
Do get some other quotes though.
Absolutely not, unless you want to find out that you are liable for thousands towards the costs of replacing the church roof in a few years’ time.
The liability insurance for that is cheap enough, you will need it DIY or not.
Thanks all! I will advise her accordingly...sounds a potential nightmare
The liability insurance for that is cheap enough, you will need it DIY or not.
The problem is knowing to look out for issues like this in the first place (and having some redress if the conveyancer doesn't). But OP has been told now, so I guess that point is moot.
You're looking at £40k vs £41.5k and she "has some money."
When I moved it was relatively simple compared with some, little more than "sell house... buy house." The solicitor threw up some random weirdness that would never have occurred to me. Like, this place used to be a care home for people with learning disabilities which meant it was classed as a type 4A dwelling instead of a type 4, or something. This might be a Problem for reasons I don't really understand, like someone is going to come check up that I have the prerequisite number of people in care or something.
Point is though, whether it was ever actually going to be an issue or not, it was flagged up to check. Might've meant that it'd have been harder to mortgage or something, I dunno.
DIY conveyancing need not have the risks as above if you are diligent. Its a relatively simple process with set steps to take. However you have no indemnity insurance to fall back on if you cock it up. You wuld also need enough legal knowledge to understand what some stuff means
the issue we found when looking at doing self conveyancing is that the money transfer ( I think it was - certainly one step) needs to be done by a lawyer and they are both reluctant to do that step on its own and will charge plenty for doing so If you can find one so your savings would be minimal. maybe £300 ish
the issue we found when looking at doing self conveyancing is that the money transfer ( I think it was – certainly one step) needs to be done by a lawyer
Is that a Scottish thing? I'm pretty certain that a CHAPS payment can be made by anyone.
If it was me, I would be tempted to do a bit of research, maybe buy a book and a have a full read up.
Like I said earlier, my brother did it himself, he has absolutely no legal training and reckoned it was pretty straight forward.
I cannot remember what the issue was but Mrs TJ looked into doing this and there was one specific thing that had to be done by a lawyer. I think it was when we were in England. Its all many decades ago so fuzzy memory
Experiences of conveyancing - DIY or paid for - when house buying are just not relevant in this case.
It's an ecclesiastical building which may have restrictive covenants in existence; conversely, there may be none but if there are - what next?
For the money involved, indemnity and liability insurance considerations, possible problems requiring specialist advice I would say the only sensible decision is to use a pro.
I've done it a few times now. Has all gone smoothly but it was pretty nerve wracking the first time. It was a pain to get the other party's conveyancer to talk to me the first time. Had to write them a letter stating I was dealing with it all. As hinted at above I did need a lawyer, that was to prove ID for the land registry forms, cost about £40 for 2 mins work. I did later find a work-around, which was to go to the land registry in person with a passport.
I found a couple of good books that went through the process. One by Which and another from Lawpack. Both were good and had step by step info.
When I had a more complex purchase recently I did use a pro, partly because I was away but also it was an auction lot that the sale collapsed on so there was extra paperwork. Even using a pro it was very handy having a good understanding of the process.
One was a chapel, btw. One of the best things I've ever bought
Oh yeah,
The other thing which was flagged up - I had no idea - is that the old house was leasehold. This was enough to make the first buyer pull out. On investigation, the lease is for 999 years and as far as I can tell the last time the... levy, is that the right word? was collected, it was for something like one pound nine shillings and sixpence. And I'm assuming that was for the entire block rather than just my property. The leaseholder is a local church which I'm not even sure still exists, certainly the named reverend on my title deeds doesn't.
Ultimately again it was a non-issue, but it's little farty stuff like this which would make me want to pay a professional because it could easily have been a big issue.
The other thing which was flagged up – I had no idea – is that the old house was leasehold
That is something that should be flagged by the estate agent before viewing. It's almost always listed on the agent's info. It's also an easy thing to find on the land registry.
That's a fair comment. But honestly, the whole process was such a blur that I'm in the "never again" camp even with all the professional help. I think the last time I was that angry was when I knocked out a bully in high school.
But honestly, the whole process was such a blur that I’m in the “never again” camp even with all the professional help
Also a fair comment. I quite like learning the process, it's interesting to me to peak behind the curtain of this sort of thing. I also like going through the building regs for more elaborate DIY jobs too 🙂
My Mrs does this for a living. Given that every single property sale seems to be an absolute shambles with unexpected complications, it's definitely not something id ever contemplate doing myself, and I'm someone that absolutely detests paying someone for something I could do myself
It was a pain to get the other party’s conveyancer to talk to me the first time. Had to write them a letter stating I was dealing with it all.
I think that’s a real issue. The other side will go “oh no” as soon as they realise it’s a diy job. Solicitors hate dealing with non solicitors because they ask stupid questions (or use the “wrong” language), don’t ask questions they should but the solicitor is acting for their client not you, and also seem to engage in conversation that might be asking advice from the one person who can’t give you advice.
just because you are a cash buyer you shouldn’t ignore the factors that matter to lenders. One day you want to sell the property and the buyer probably has a lender so making sure your ducks are in a row for a future sale, is what you want to do today. Getting the missing bit of paper or the indemnity now is much easier than after the church have your money.
As hinted at above I did need a lawyer, that was to prove ID for the land registry forms, cost about £40 for 2 mins work.
Money laundering regs also make solicitors really jumpy about large sums of money from people who are not their clients appearing in their account.
most property transactions go smoothly (in the long run) beware of the people saying it’s easy and nothing went wrong for them - they might be the 99% of transactions where nothing bad happens. You use a solicitor for the 1% of times something will be bad.
I'd err towards solicitor on this one for a couple of reasons:
1. It is an ecclesiastical building - there are often all sorts of bizarre covenants to deal with - or indemnify yourself against if you don't know they exist (this is quite common practice in the property market).
2. Specialist conveyancers tend to be residential-focussed. They are not as highly trained as solicitors, so there's a higher likelihood they balls sonething up, or just not take the case on in the first place.
Unfortunately conveyancing is rigged towards qualified conveyancers or solicitors. They get bulk discount on searches, for example. And (straying OT a bit here) but if there is a lender involved they usually insist on it being done by a professional - no matter if they are actually any good at all - it isn’t what happens if there is a problem so much as how you apportion blame. And, ultimately, who is on the hook financially.
Im really completely un-expert on this. However, there was a recent case where a friend sold an old property, and he had a close relative (a solicitor) do the conveyancing. This was one of those rare cases where something was missed during the conveyancing, and my friend was sued by the buyer afterwards. I think it was to do with rights of way.
Personally speaking, as a total layman, my own take-away from this was that one of the conveyancer’s main roles is to give some liability and recourse in the case than something goes wrong. But because the conveyancing was done by a relative, when my friend lost the legal case he didn’t feel right about suing the solicitor, since it was a relative. Which (to me) seems like a good reason not to use a relative for conveyancing.
Specialist conveyancers tend to be residential-focussed. They are not as highly trained as solicitors
TBF, it depends on the solicitor. If you get a real generalist that does a bit of personal injury on Monday, some planning on Tuesday, and conveyancing on Wednesday, they might not be familiar with all the oddball stuff as a conveyancer that does it all day everyday. And I think even inconveyancing firms the really weird stuff gets shoved on the desk of their solicitors anyway.
breninbeener - have just read your post again; Mrs B wants to buy the chapel vestry.
So, not the whole chapel?
What is the rest of the chapel used for - if not ecclesiastical?
Is the vestry:
- an integral part of the chapel?
- an addition/extension to the chapel?
- a physically separate building? If yes, is it on a separate plot of land?
If it's either of the first two, you/Mrs B definitely need a solicitor - and absolute clarity around leasehold/freehold; if leasehold, be very aware of a repairing lease.
If it's the latter, it could still be subject to restrictive covenants so I would still advocate a solicitor but an experienced conveyancer might be suitable.
Whichever it is, liability insurances and indemnities would still be at the very top of my list.
Some excellent points made above re the insurance and relative risk aspects too.
Conveyancers and solicitors are insured up to the eyeballs for stuff like this - you are most often talking about transactions nudging a quarter of a million. They have policies with excesses that would make the normal person baulk, but placed against the potential full value of a claim...
Obviously the insurance companies are all over them for number of incidents, average payout, max payout etc. But it is a tiered system of risk mitigation that only economies of scale can obtain.
It get really complex when a single firm is acting on both sides of a transaction - only the real big boys can do this as they can set up specialist ABS (acting both sides) teams and demonstrate the systems have the right chinese walls in place to avoid conflicts of interest. It gets worse when firms acquire each other...