We are trying to get upgraded to a fibre connection in our house. It's complicated, an old stone building and the living area (with existing router) is upstairs. Engineer yesterday was sucking his teeth about the difficulty of getting the cable up to the lounge, the external termination point for the fibre is actually in our (semi-detached) neighbour's garden and the cable would have to either go all over our roof to get to the wall outside our router before drilling through (likely involving scaffolding at huge cost) or else straight into the house where it abuts the neighbour but then tacked round miles of interior walls etc and he didn't think he had a cable long enough for that. (This is what the existing phone line does, I'm not sure why he couldn't get a bit of cable long enough, but that was what he said. And it would be a substantial job to put the cable in where the phone line currently runs, through several walls and internal ceilings due to the house shape.)
An alternative that came to us after he left: if we we put the ONT in the downstair hall, access for that is relatively easy, the fibre can go straight through the wall where it abuts our neighbour, and terminate there (there's actually one internal wall but no big deal). We could then run an ethernet cable up to the router quite easily, we could actually put the new router in the upstairs hallway rather than lounge, it's relatively easy with no walls to breach. There's even an existing cable run for a defunct door bell in this location that I never got round to removing.
TLDR: is it ok to have a fair length of cable between the ONT and the router?
We're not talking about hundreds of metres, maybe 20-30.
So far, one plusnet person has said, sure that's no problem, there won't be any drop-off for up to 90m (which is what we'd gathered from the internet). But then he escalated us to the next person who sucked his teeth and said, oh, you should have ONT and router close together, your service might be worse if you don't, then you'd be unhappy and we wouldn't be able to fix it....he really sounded like he was making it up just to cover his arse though. Who is right?
(We could possibly get them to put the ONT upstairs in the hallway, but that is still a fair cable run all the way from the external point in the neighbour's garden. And we didn't discuss this with the engineer, so don't want to make too many assumptions about how far inside the house they can go.)
It's what we do. Shuffled things around after install, but ONT links to (non WiFi) router in the garage via 5m ethernet. Router links to shed office, living room telly, spare room and WiFi access points.
Ethernet should be OK up to about 100m IIRC.
This networking engineer not able to terminate his own Cat5e cabling? (Or Cat 6 if your feline likes goldfish and there's money to burn). It's expensive if you DIY as a decent crimping tool and the tester will push up costs.
Yep, normal ethernet distances apply. I have ONT at most convenient point then ethernet to the attic where the router is.
Yeah 20-30m will be fine, that sort of length though is where decent cables can start to make a difference, that said if it were me I'd probably still just go for something on Amazon with decent reviews and just test it before installing it properly. I'd opt for a Cat7 cable, it's shielded between the internal twisted pairs vs Cat6 which is unshielded (although it probably wouldn't make any difference for your situation, there's not much difference in cost). Cat8 cables are restricted to 30m (and wouldn't offer anything over Cat7 for your situation anyway).
This networking engineer not able to terminate his own Cat5e cabling?
They're not really network engineers. They need so many people to do all the installs now, they're just new hires trained to do the basic, standard install and nothing else. Anything unusual and they have to consult or get a supervisor out. They know little or nothing about networking outside of this! (my experience anyway after 2 installs!)
20-30m of ethernet is fine, as mentioned! However if you didn't want it tying up a wall socket there & wanted to move it next to the router, it's a simple job with a fibre extension kit:
https://shop.premitel.uk/product/fibre-termination-point-relocation-kit/
I had about 30m between the ONT and the router, worked perfectly well when you could "see" the router.
Then upgraded to mesh and decided to put the control node in the existing run betwixt ONT and the original location (which now has another node attached to it). The crimping was a doddle and took about 20 minutes to get the whole thing sorted. Router is now ~6m from the ONT on top of a wardrobe.
Then ran another cable to the third node. Also a doddle to run, crimp, connect and then add in a switch to connect to a headless server, NAS and printer.
I can't see why it would be a problem?
I once rather cheekily piggybacked on a sites network via about 100m of Cat5e to our router (plus however much was in their walls back to their routers) with no significant impact on the connection speed.
The (Gigaclear or their subcontractor) engineer who did ours could only run 10m of fibre cable which required a bit of stretching to get from where the previous engineers had put the external termination by the garage around the house to the study. For reasons I couldn't quite fathom, they weren't allowed to run the cables indoors. Hence the ONT box had to be covering the hole in the wall. So you might have to let them install the router and ONT where they want it, then stick your own ethernet cable in to move it elsewhere.
Thanks all this confirms what we had gathered with a bit of googling, it was just that the person on the phone threw us a bit when he started sucking his teeth.
For the inside out cable the bit that will go from inside (ont) to the outside (csp). (Max length most will run of inside out cable is 50mts) And 90% of that will be outside.
There are very strict instructions on routing and it differs from isp to isp some being very strict (sky) other like the less know more local outfits not as strict but the basic install safety aspects should remain.
Over a roof is daft it won't last long flapping about it should be clipped every 300mm/400mm double clipped at bends. Metal clips over doors(fire exits) the list is endless. And a sloppy install will affect it in the end.
It really is better to run cat5e from the ont to the best place for the router regarding signal ect.
I've used all sorts of fibre patch cables but in your home keep it simple is the best.
It's just an Ethernet presentation, it's not special. Cat5e spec is up to 100m* so 30 metres is nothing. You can crimp your own but it's not something I would advise unless you know what you're doing and really need to thread a cable through a small hole. Mine is hand-crimped but I have all the tools and have made up hundreds of cables. If I were you I'd buy an off-the-shelf cable of whatever length you need.
(* - It's actually 100 yards IIRC, so 90-odd metres. Either way, it's far greater than 30.)
Yeah 20-30m will be fine, that sort of length though is where decent cables can start to make a difference, that said if it were me I’d probably still just go for something on Amazon with decent reviews and just test it before installing it properly. I’d opt for a Cat7 cable, it’s shielded between the internal twisted pairs vs Cat6 which is unshielded (although it probably wouldn’t make any difference for your situation, there’s not much difference in cost). Cat8 cables are restricted to 30m (and wouldn’t offer anything over Cat7 for your situation anyway).
Nonsense.
You can just buy a 50m pre terminated cable.. Outdoor /Weatherproof cat6 for £25...no need to mess with crimpers...
You can buy a 50m Cat5e cable from the same place for half that price. What weather are you expecting indoors?
There was talk of having some of it 'outside'.
Either way, my point was you can buy long lengths for not much compared to buying a spool and a crimping tool and crimping it yourself.
I agree cat6 is overkill but it is totally future proof for the sake of an extra tenner.. And if it has a better quality sheath for outdoors then you'd never realistically need to replace it.
Our ONT box is on the other side of the house from our primary router. Running a long Ethernet cable between ONT and router will be fine.
ONT box was put where it was to give a neat and logical fibre run from post to house. Any other route would have been unsightly.
our router positions and cabling set up were well established so I just needed to add the ONT into the setup.
I added a 2-port Ethernet socket near the ONT box. The cables from that run to a patch panel in the cellar. Cables from that run all over the place. A couple run to a 2-port Ethernet socket near the primary router. Patch cables connect the appropriate ports resulting in the same outcome as running a 20-30m patch cable between ONT and router. Everything else stayed the same. Well, except for the WAN connection which is better and cheaper on BRSK than Virgin.
Why not out both the router and the ont in the downstairs hall, then just use a mesh to get internet through the house? No need for ugly wires anywhere then
Nonsense
/shrug - I've certainly seen some interference issues with 30-50m Cat5e untrunked runs going close to fluorescent ceiling lights (in a factory rather than home, not that it really matters). I'm not saying you must use Cat7 or that you'll see any speed gains just that for a 30m run the cost difference vs Cat5e is pretty negligible so why not?
The (Gigaclear or their subcontractor) engineer who did ours could only run 10m of fibre cable which required a bit of stretching
I think it really depends on the subcontractor, our neighbours had a Gigaclear fibre cable of at least 25m installed a year ago as the roadside box was right at the bottom of their garden with no additional cost.
They managed to drill through a mains cable and in trying to sort this out damaged a significant area of plaster but that’s another story. Oh and they buried the cable in the lawn at about 10cm depth…..
There was talk of having some of it ‘outside’.
Ah, I missed that. Apologies.
Either way, my point was you can buy long lengths for not much compared to buying a spool and a crimping tool and crimping it yourself.
Agreed. As I said, it's not a course of action I'd recommend unless you absolutely need to thread unjacked cable through small spaces and even then I'd be recommending a bigger hole over home crimping. To do it properly you'd need a crimping tool (obvs), a cable cutter, a coaxial sheath cutter, a pair of side cutters, an Ethernet cable tester and a degree of practice. For sake of one cable that you can buy off the shelf premade and certified it's a fool's errand. I was that fool, but I have several hundred quids worth of tools to do it.
I agree cat6 is overkill but it is totally future proof for the sake of an extra tenner.
It's a waste of a tenner IMHO.
/shrug – I’ve certainly seen some interference issues with 30-50m Cat5e untrunked runs going close to fluorescent ceiling lights (in a factory rather than home, not that it really matters). I’m not saying you must use Cat7 or that you’ll see any speed gains just that for a 30m run the cost difference vs Cat5e is pretty negligible so why not?
What you need in noisy environments is STP, not a Category arms race. Cat6 is nasty stuff to work with, Cat7 isn't even a standard and Cat8 is the stuff of datacentre interconnects not a domestic Internet connection. My ONT install came with a Cat6 cable to the router, I threw it in the bin and replaced it with something that can go round corners.
In any case, a CatX cable does not make a CatX connection, it has to be CatX throughout. Neither the ONT's nor the router's network ports will support anything beyond Gigabit Ethernet so a fancy cable is pointless. Even if you're DIYing structured cabling like PGP posted above, many commercial installations today still have 100Mbps 'Fast' Ethernet at the desktop rather than 1000.
Gigabit Ethernet is like 25-year old technology, for any talk of "future proofing" that's not going to be changing any time soon. Certainly not for a home install, and you'll be replacing everything if it ever does.
Thanks for that - exactly what I've been looking for for when I get fibre installed. hadn't worked out how to run from where they're going to want to terminate to where I'll actually want it terminated and wouldn't trust some not-actually-an-engineer doing anything internal
Thanks for that – exactly what I’ve been looking for for when I get fibre installed. hadn’t worked out how to run from where they’re going to want to terminate to where I’ll actually want it terminated and wouldn’t trust some not-actually-an-engineer doing anything internal
I'm not sure exactly what this gains other than being able to site the ONT next to a convenient power point, which the installer should do anyway. When mine was installed they asked where I wanted it.
There is no point in running fibre through the house rather than copper, I'd actively avoid it even. At work I had a crateful of fibre optic patch cables, I got a tame Transmissions engineer in to test them all and only a handful passed.
I Am Not A Network Engineer, YMMV.
I think it really depends on the subcontractor, our neighbours had a Gigaclear fibre cable of at least 25m installed a year ago as the roadside box was right at the bottom of their garden with no additional cost.
They managed to drill through a mains cable and in trying to sort this out damaged a significant area of plaster but that’s another story. Oh and they buried the cable in the lawn at about 10cm depth…..
There's two, one ran the fiber from the road to the wall of the house. They just put the cable in some trunking and buried* it under the gravel. The next guy was responsible for getting it through the wall and plugging it in which is where the 10m cable came into play.
In retrospect the problem would have been better solved by either having the ONT in the garage and running ethernet round to the study (actually my preferred option as I wan to run a cable back the other way to the summerhouse at some point). Or having the foresight to get the first installers to put the box by the front door, not the garage.
*loose term, it's barely covered TBH
Why not out both the router and the ont in the downstairs hall, then just use a mesh to get internet through the house? No need for ugly wires anywhere then
^^^This!
Please don't run any more fibre through the house/workplace than absolutely necessary it's just silly, those extensions for fibre need to be clean even from new as will your existing inside out cable. The light loss on dirty cable will hinder your speeds wayyyyyy more than even a 99mt cable run of self terminated cat5e.
In home it's kiss
Keep
it
stupidity
simple.
Ps I audit fibre installs as part of my day job
Is it really that bad? What you men by 'need to be clean even from new' (the only optical connections I've ever dealt with are a few short audio cables to an amp).
The point the fibre would come in really isn't convenient for power or ethernet at the moment. Could I prep a duct and get the installer to run their own fibre to the middle of the house (where I've got utility cupboard with power and ethernet switch).
Is it really that bad?
As not a network engineer I carried Ethernet network testing gear costing hundreds. My aforementioned tame Transmission engineer carried fibre testing kit costing thousands.
The point the fibre would come in really isn’t convenient for power or ethernet at the moment.
Power is the issue here. Networking is a non-event but the ONT will need to be powered and the installer should be on board with this. Beyond that there's a dozen answers to networking from wired Ethernet to plain old Wi-Fi to a mesh solution. You could run a 6" cable from the ONT to a travel router to bounce the signal to a more central primary router.
The installer probably isn't going to run fibre beyond "through the wall" and you don't want it anyway, any internal routing will be far, far simpler over copper. Are you really that stuck for an external wall near a power socket? If you're laying ducting I'd be routing power out ahead of routing fibre in.
As they say cleanliness is next to godliness.
But yeah it needs to be clean there should be a dust free connection between the ont and the cable. Your basically blocking the light transmission. Bit like bird shite on your window screen of your T6.
There is no point in running fibre through the house rather than copper, I’d actively avoid it even
Not sure if this is helpful for the OP, but our fibre install (Full Fibre) was via new pole they put up so it had to come in via the Roof and at a height where the local farm machinery wouldn't hook it like an arrester wire. We have a cupboard I grandly call our 'comms room' with a pair of NAS's, couple of PIs, UPS (as the power is flakey here) and a couple of internal ethernet cables for mesh devices we can directly cable. So I REALLY wanted the ONT in there.
We asked the installers if they'd rather terminate in the loft where we did have power or pull the fibre around 25m through the loft into the cupboard via a route I'd created behind various studs, ceilings etc. They were fine running it all the way and were super helpful getting it through the somewhat convoluted route.
Not sure if it's the case for all installers but they are told to tell customers they can't run fibre through the house, but if you ask them nicely and it's not a massive pain then they were happy enough to do it for us.
Also back in the day, we had a VERY expensive fibre splicing machine on site (with only one engineer allowed near it, not me!) that seemed like magic. The ones the installers use to terminate into the ONT is about a 1/4 of the size and I guess about 1/50th of the cost!
Our line comes under the road (and indeed under our neighbour's garden, the original property was a chapel plus adjoining presbytery that was split when the conversion was done, hence the confused services), the existing pole isn't tall enough for a high wire (they said). And we started from a standpoint of having a setup that works mostly ok, we just want the better speed, hence trying to replicate what is in place rather than build something completely new. We also have thick stone walls to deal with so a pure wireless approach isn't likely to work well enough.
Anyway thanks for all the advice, we have decided we'll definitely go with downstairs ONT and we'll either put the router down there and extend as necessary or perhaps put it at the top of the stairs. My wife is keen for some cable connection at least in some locations due to a very specific music application (jamalus) that needs very low latency, she says wifi might not be quite good enough. Downstairs would work well for that, a spare bedroom off the hall where she plays.
We have a cupboard I grandly call our ‘comms room’ with a pair of NAS’s, couple of PIs, UPS (as the power is flakey here) and a couple of internal ethernet cables for mesh devices we can directly cable. So I REALLY wanted the ONT in there.
You sound like me...
Except my comms room is big enough for all the boxes of scalectrix (Digital of course) and shelves full of RC cars...
Cat 5e network cable, (solid/pure copper ideally) between them and you're done. Outdoor rated if it's going outside to get there.
These days I don't bother running anything less than cat6 most of the time, but Cat5e is plenty for this. DO NOT buy anything marked cat7, it's not really a thing and if they've called it cat7 it's probably all sorts of mislabelled rubbish.
I managed to get our installers to run it into the loft where I had somewhere setup for it to go (and loft is boarded out, not crawling around). Means I have the ONT (modem), and all the networking gear in one place running off a UPS. Makes life easier, but probably overkill for most.
Also worth noting - you'll need a plug for the installers to use, but an option afterwards is powering it via POE with an adapter like this: https://www.amazon.com/REVODATA-12V-2A-Surveillance-PlugPS5712TG/dp/B08HS4NT13. You need to do your homework carefully (voltage needed, size of adapter, make sure what standards of PoE are supported etc) . But it does mean the network cable can also supply the power for the ONT itself which might make things neater. Main benefit for me is I can restart the modem by cycling the PoE power on the switch rather than going up into the loft to turn the power on and off.
