DINKS and DINKWADS of STW

Despite having 5 kids between us, we have quite a few DINKY friends, doesn't seem such a bad way of life 🤔

FWIW the majority of friends that I run/ride/walk with have no kids (dogs feature largely though), making me the odd one out. I suspect that's a bit of an anomaly due to where I live. Many folk move here due to the outstanding access to outdoor activities and they've chosen not to have kids due to their hobbies.

We're Dual Income Kid of Hands (DIKOH!?)

and are planning or expecting kids and as a result it’s made us feel a bit cast out,

It just happens like that - but it doesn't last. We have nothing to do with any of the parents we socialised with while our daughter was at school (she's now 21). You end up being 'friends' because your kids are friends with theirs and it's convenient.

I’ve spent my adult life happily as a DINK and a DINKWAS (the dogs sadly passed away at a wonderful old age). Now in my 50’s, with a partner in his 60’s who has 2 adult daughters and now grandkids, so we have interesting discussions from both our experiences.

From my perspective, life with no children has been positive, rewarding, giving, supporting and loving. All that some people put into their children, I have been able to give to others (be that family members, friends, or people in society who need volunteers to offer support). Plus I have loved my dogs and given them a long and happy life. So psychologically I feel that I have had a great life being able to offer a lot to others, in large part because I have had spare time and energy as it has not been taken up by having children.

My friends are a great mix of both parents and child free, and we just socialise in different ways. Equally, I have dog owning friends and non-dog friends too 😄

In addition, I’ve been able to put a lot of time and flexibility into my job, working on protecting nature and the environment, which I care deeply about and will hopefully benefit not just the planet but also future generations.

So from my perspective, I have had no loss of love, no lack of giving, and a rewarding life. There are many benefits to a life without children - for you and your partner, your family and friends, and society as a whole.

Same position but older so had 20+ years of friends who have kids but we do not. Yes it's a pain trying to arrange stuff when all your buddies have the kid excuse or demands but I just ride or do things solo then.
We have lots, in fact 95% of our friends have kids, most of them moan incessantly about it 🤣 but it's never made us feel like outsiders

The upside is holidays are cheaper as you can go outside of school holidays!

Mrs TJ and I decided to be DINKS  A decision we never regretted.  The freedom it gives you is what we really wanted and used a lot.

I have friends with kids but I did find that over the years you tend to drift away from the pals with kids and not the other DINKs - simply because your lives are different.  Most of the folk I see locally are DINKS but a couple have grown up kids now.

My guess is this is going to be an adjustment period for you.  If you were expecting to have kids then its totally reasonable to feel like that but you will adapt. Hard when the decision is made for you

We have friends who have been DINKS but not by choice. They found a lot of 'friends' really did not get how hard it was in the early days, and how much fold with kids focussed on nothing but their kids. It led to some evaluating of friendships, and an effort to connect with folk without kids or through activities. We always made an effort to socialise with and without our kids - and I think it shows our friendship is still strong.

I think they have a great balance of things, and in fact I am rather envious of the lifestyle that no kids and a good (consultant doctor) job gets them! They get involved in a lot of community bits and pieces, have great holidays, an amazing house and garden etc.

Although we live at other ends of the country now, we meet up twice a year to ride bikes or canoe, to drink whisky and enjoy life.

Sort of similar here - some friends with kids, some without.

Keep involved with the ones with kids - they will want some non=kid time, and adult conversations that don't involve kids. You can also get involved with the kid activities too, all the fun without the responsibility.

I've a few uni mates from 30 years ago who we still see, and we've known their kids since they were born. They're starting to graduate uni now!

And as above - you have more freedom and different options to those with kids. Your plan sounds great!

We're DINKWADs (although the dog came after we'd made the decision). For us it was the fact that the amount of stress trying to have kids was causing totally outweighed how much we wanted it. Also seeing how much stress adoption and IVF caused others.

We're generally happy, although my wife finds it harder as there is more of an expectation for women. The ability to do whatever we want and also having less stress about the state of the world helps.

Have an affair each, that's spice things up a bit.

As alluded to above - make an effort with the folk with kids.  Both to give the parents a bit of adult time and to get to know the kids
I did this both with my nephews and my godless children and am reaping the reward with a decent relationship with them even tho they are all now adults in their 30s and 40s even tho we live in differnt countries

being the interesting / mischievous uncle / aunt is a great fun role.  Buy them water pistols, have a pot of slime in your pocket, teach them to make a drumkit out of pots and pans, buy them lego and sit with them an build interesting stuff etc etc

In seriousness,

I'm not convinced that a lack of responsibility is the issue here, which is what having a child or a dog will change.

Rather. your friends are (understandably) increasingly busy as time rolls on. It happens. I'm planning going for beer and a curry with a few mates, there's four of us including me, we've just pencilled in a Thursday at the end of September as the first time we're all available, and I noticed it's a couple of weeks short of the one-year anniversary of the creation of the WhatsApp group where one of us went "hey, let's go for beer and a curry!"

Socialising as an adult takes effort, it's not like being a teenager where you've got something on at least weekly if not daily and you're having to choose between three different invites for places. You need to be proactive. "Hey, do you want to come over on Saturday, we'll watch a film and get pizza" is likely going to be way more effective than "hey, we should do something at some point." I moved house, went "hey everyone, open invite!" and saw no-one. It was only when I started making actual plans and targeting people that I saw my friends again (though covid didn't help here either).

Or, you have a hot and sweaty Internet connection, host a 'pub' quiz night over Zoom one evening, it's considerably easier for people to do stuff if their first consideration isn't "well, I'd love to, but I can't get a babysitter..."

Also, if your social circle has dried up, are there any clubs you could join or hobbies you could try? Group rides? Board games?

I don't think it'll make much difference what you want. If she was set on kids or changes her mind in a few years then it'll either happen or break the relationship. (IANAD)

“Hey, do you want to come over on Saturday, we’ll watch a film and get pizza” is likely going to be way more effective than “hey, we should do something at some point.”

This so much.  Over the last two years I have made a real effort with this and also if someone says " we should meet up sometime" I say " great - how about tuesday?  "Shall I pop round to yours after tea with a bottle of wine?"   Also with pals with kids you might have to go to theirs much more than they come to you.

I'm a SINK.

I'm 50, and live with my mother. For various reasons I never settled down with someone.

I'm quite content, and have a good quality of life, but it's taken me a while to get here.

In my mid-thirties I did go through a period of worrying about "last kid in the playground (no one left to play with)" syndrome, which sounds similar to what you're worrying about @eatmorepizza.

I think that what sets me apart is that I'm also a GP, so I get to see all aspects of different people's lives and what doesn't make people happy.

The truth of the matter is that although being in a good relationship can be better than being single, being in a bad one is worse. Often much worse.

Being a parent isn't intrinsically better than not being one, it's just different. Different opportunities, different compromises.

Whenever I see someone vehemently saying that their particular life choice is superior to another I always wonder who it is that they're trying to convince.

Some of the unhappiest people I know are unhappy because of their families. Similarly there are some people for whom their only source of happiness is their family, which I think is a shame.

I got a bit of therapy (precipitated by another life event) and made some changes, did some work on myself. Pursuing happiness itself is a fool's errand, but what we can do (and I did) is foster the circumstances where we are most likely to feel fulfilled. Happiness sometimes follows.

In my view the trick is learning self-compassion and making the most of the opportunities that come to us, no matter what our circumstances are.

Great post Kramer!

@footflaps, thank you.

Whenever I see someone vehemently saying that their particular life choice is superior to another I always wonder who it is that they’re trying to convince.

Bingo.

And it's almost always "but it's different when they're your own."

You want kids, good for you. I'm sure they're great. But it ain't mandatory. Aggressive breeders are a pain in the arse. "So when are you starting a family, then? We've done it, why haven't you?!" Well, actually my partner (at the time) has had a double oophorectomy for health reasons so probably not in the immediate future.

And it’s almost always “but it’s different when they’re your own.”

Or "you wouldn't understand, not being a parent."

I always make it clear when giving advice to parents that although I'm very familiar with the instructions, I've never assembled the kit so their experience may vary. Plus being a parent is hard.

Interesting to hear all of your replies, particularly around the friendship aspect.

@scruffythefirst It was actually me who was wanting them more I'd say and me who pushed to go to the docs about it, however I'm aware some kids make me broody and others are like a living contraceptive ad, the news was definitely harder for me than my spouse I believe and she is the one keeping us both with a positive outlook throughout this.

@cougar I've found keeping and making friends harder as I've been getting older, I've discovered the past few years that I tick all the boxes for being neurodivergent and I have a small social battery, this is drained 3x as fast when its a 1-1 scenario with someone else who I'm unfamiliar with, my brains always racing trying to think of things to talk about and analysing my behaviour with them and adjusting on the fly. I've considered joining some group rides but as I'm a big bloke I worry I'll slow everyone down as I'm not the fastest on the climbs, I also have anxieties about chatting and making friends within a group incase my social battery bonks and I run out of things to say, but at the same time it does get pretty tiring riding solo all of the time! I've been in a few clubs for other various hobbies the past 10 years or so, target shooting and field archery notably but have found for me (this maybe the neurodivergent part of my brain here) I've always found it feels inauthentic in terms of you only have friendship within the boundaries of the hobby and club.

I've got 2 really good friends I speak with daily who are both very similiar to me so we rarely see each other and we have no hobbies in common, our wider social circle is mostly my wifes friends and their partners who I all get on well with but I only see if it's couples events

From the other side of the fence one of my best mates is no kids and I feel constantly guilty as I am hard to arrange day trips and weekends away. I feel very grateful he still makes the effort to do fun things with me.

I started as a DINKY and became a DINKWADS (although the pup concerned is a guide dog so he won't be staying unless it goes wrong). We have friends with and without kids, it's undoubtably harder for the friends with kids but when we do meet up a good time is had by everyone.

I don't feel that my life has been diminished in anyway for not having had children, there's too many humans as it is. You are going to find it hard for a while, especially if you both wanted children initially.

SIDtDKGU here. Not very catchy, but must be a few of us

Single Income Due to Divorce Kid(s) Grown Up.

Lack of responsibilities can be nice, but one income -whereas that was fine, the current climate has made it not so much fun.

Whenever I see someone vehemently saying that their particular life choice is superior to another I always wonder who it is that they’re trying to convince

100%. there are always going to be regrets but some people will deny them and hide behind their way is the only way.

Or “you wouldn’t understand, not being a parent.”

Oh, I've had that on this very forum, more than once. And you know, I think they're absolutely right, I don't understand. I have no frame of reference here.

I don't want kids in the same way I don't want a giraffe or a sailboat. I'm sure they're nice enough and all, but where would I put it? I simply lack that gene, and ironically I can trace it back through the male side of my lineage.

(Actually, a giraffe would be pretty cool, that's a bad example.)

I thonk Kramer nails it.

Our kids are now 16 and 20. They've been amazing, i wouldn’t change anything for the world, and a lot of our local friends we've met through kids activities.

We also have friends who have no kids, who seem to live amazing exciting lives, or are about to retire mid 50s.

Also friends who have adopted, and seen the good and bad sides of that, and those who've gone the IVF route, either successfully or disastrously.

Its a choice only you as a couple can make. Not having kids doesn’t mean you can't be amazing aunts and uncles for family, or friends and neighbours, or support local sports or other youth organisations if you wanted to.

SIHAK - Single income, her adult kids. We see them regularly and they bring us their problems and worries but also some happiness. After 30 odd years it is beginning to sort itself out I guess.

DINK by choice here, so admittedly there are differences to you being unwillingly forced into it by circumstance.

There's plenty of us about. Find new friends* which will probably be those who share a hobby or interest with one or both of you. Or if  you're very lucky, your immediate neighbours.

Ideally you'd both have some individual friends and some couple friends. Couple friends doesnt have to be other couples, just ones that the two of you spend time with together.

*and I certainly don't mean ditch the old ones! just be aware they are going to have other priorities and less time for you now; so you'll need a wider netweork to fill in the gaps.

At the risk of gender stereotyping, blokes tend to need an "activity" to do with their friends, more than women do. Friday night in the pub talking bollox til closing time might be the first thing your time crunched parent-friends choose to ditch. Wednesday night five-a-side may be the one thing they choose to keep.

EDIT - I see you've already adressed this while I was typing

Another thought. An opinion, as always worth what it cost.

I believe it is important to try and spend time with others in different generations. Family is the easy and common way to do this. This is many are parented and parent. This not the only way nor for many the best way. For some it's via niece and nephew, others clubs and volunteering, many routes.

For your own perspective on life for this reason I think it is important to be connected to different generations. The transition though life is where we start to parent others in some sense then take on other roles and then support the parents in a grandparent type role. The forms of these relationships can vary but it is the inter generational aspect that it important and the knowledge transfer is both ways.

I have a small social battery, this is drained 3x as fast when its a 1-1 scenario with someone else who I’m unfamiliar with

Bugger, there goes the 'affair' idea.

I’ve considered joining some group rides but as I’m a big bloke I worry I’ll slow everyone down as I’m not the fastest on the climbs

A good group should accommodate this sort of thing. I occasionally see novice groups advertised locally, not suggesting that you're a novice but they'll be aimed at gentle pootles for people who haven't pushed a pedal since they were children. They'll be holding you back.

Try it? If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, you don't need to go back.

I’ve always found it feels inauthentic in terms of you only have friendship within the boundaries of the hobby and club.

Yeah, this is the "it's my last day at work today, here's my contact details, keep in touch!" phenomenon. Truth is, even the "mates" at work, you'll never speak with again. But does that actually matter? For there to be a future at all there first has to be a now. And your two bestest friends were once people you didn't know.

Where are you archerying, out of interest? I'm lapsed NFAS.

I’ve got 2 really good friends I speak with daily who are both very similiar to me so we rarely see each other and we have no hobbies in common

So, start a hobby. Go do an escape room.

our wider social circle is mostly my wifes friends and their partners who I all get on well with but I only see if it’s couples events

That's fixable too. Have a lads' night. Beer and pizza and a movie, if there's a film on the go then you don't actually have to talk to anyone. Pack the girls off to another house and let them do... uh, whatever it is that women do when there's no blokes around. Gin?

Mid 30s DINK also here and very happy! I have a niece and a nephew who unfortunately live in another country so I don't see them enough, but they are more than enough kids for me! I could not imagine giving up all my free time for kids, it's just 100% not for me.

The one issue we have come across is we both feel incredibly lonely as a couple in this new chapter,

Just as a side note: often when you have kids you still end up "divorcing" your old friends even if they, too, have kids. You end up spending time with parents of kids that live near to you - not because you particularly like them but because it's convenient imhe. Are your old friends with kids hanging out with each other?

At the risk of gender stereotyping, blokes tend to need an “activity” to do with their friends, more than women do.

Stereotyping or no, it certainly can be a neuro-divergent comfort blanket. It's why I suggested an escape room or a board game. If you have a focus then it relieves the pressure of having to do this "small talk" bullshit so beloved of the "normal people." You can be sociable by spending time with friends pushing small plastic trains around a big cardboard map rather than sitting there in a sweat babbling "well... nice weather we're having... for the time of year" or, worse, having to talk about Real Things.

Not DINK here, but we did have go through IVF to get our laddie so sadly know that route well.

The first month of "Not this month then" was ok. Once we were at the 40-oddth month of bad news whilst waiting on getting up up the waiting list was horrendous. Lots and lots of tears and a pretty dark place. Pregnancies and births announced around us externally would be treated with joy for the parents; and an inconsolable wife at home in private.

It's a path I wouldn't wish on anyone and I hope never to revisit.

Was it worth it, absolutely. My laddie is 8months old this week.

As Ernst Shackleton said; "Difficulties are just things to overcome after all"

I'm a SINK in my early 40's and it's effin incredible!

I listen to the absolute drivel that my friends have to endure with kids and their wives and inwardly i'm thinking that i am so lucky! They even think i'm lucky. I've been told many a time from one friend that he feels trapped in every aspect of hin life which i find so sad.

I ski for 6 weeks a year in Verbier, i may go to the Himalayas or i may go to Mexico for some sun, i take my parents away and i basically do as i please. I love every minute of my life!

Whatever circumstances come your way for whatever reason, just enjoy as much of it as you can. Don't get hung up on things that are outside your control.

@cougar Some great advice there, particularly the "keep in touch part", Thank you. My LBS does a group ride on a Friday once a month, think I'll give that a go. Sadly no longer archerying, lockdown edition 1 put a halt to it, our NFAS membership expired and we haven't gotten back into it since, we used to be members of Wild Geese club in Easby.

Appreciate all the comments people, some really sound advice!

being the interesting / mischievous uncle / aunt is a great fun role

I told my nephew the going rate was £5 when he lost his first tooth c 30 years ago! Sister got payback when Mrs FB & I decided to have kids later!

They even think i’m lucky.

I don't. My son is the best thing that's ever happened in my life and well, tbh I don't think I'd still be here if I didn't have him.

The days at Bike Park Wales with him. Man, best days ever.

We're all different 🙂

My LBS does a group ride on a Friday once a month, think I’ll give that a go.

Think? Do it.

If it turns out to be shit, it's shit. What have you lost, an afternoon? My inaugural (and indeed, only) ride-out with the local STW group was an abject disaster, they probably still laugh about my ineptitude now. I'm glad I did it, though.

And it's hard. It's "big boy pants" levels of hard, I totally understand that. Stepping out of your comfort zone is daunting. But it can be rewarding.

Sadly no longer archerying, lockdown edition 1 put a halt to it, our NFAS membership expired and we haven’t gotten back into it since, we used to be members of Wild Geese club in Easby.

You're a couple of hours from me and I don't know the club. Picking the bow back up has been on my "to do" list for maybe 20 years but it seems I'm rather bad at following my own advice.

We’re all different 🙂

Something both sides could do to remember.

Some people want to have children. Some don't. Both of these scenarios are perfectly fine.

I'd never tell someone "I don't have kids so you shouldn't either." My possibly ill-conceived(*) advice here was simply that it didn't feel like the right solution for the issue the OP was presenting. It sounds to me less like they're wanting to start a family and more like they're just bored off their tits. But, obvs, Internet forum and I don't know the OP from a ham sandwich so I could be way off the mark.

(* - See what I did there? Oh please yourselves. Tough crowd. I'm here all week.)

Wait, I've got it.

What you need is clearly a cat.

I think we need to remember the difference between the childfree from choice and those who are childfree because they cannot conceive.

A friend of mine was utterly devastated to be told she could not have kids.  She has adopted a kid now.

When folk say " its different when its your own" they are absolutely right - its that old oxytocin again

Most of my friends are childless like myself. My closest friend has one child, but she's never stopped this from seeing me or her other friends. I often have to go and fit in with her time wise, which is no hardship.

The lonely thing is a strange one, people can be lonely even with children or close family around them, some don't have family and are never lonely.

I know people who regret having had children and only had them because it was expected, I also know people that desperately wanted them and it didn't happen.
We are childless, however we went through the 'sharing' my nephew. We did all the bathing, nappy changing, reading bedtime stories, school run, doing things that families with children do. It was mostly great and we were able to give him the childhood, that we would have given our own child had we had one. It was the best of both worlds. He got all the love we had for a child and we got his love back (and some of the problems).
As for getting older, I soon realised that most children nowadays are not going to want to look after their parents when they get old.
I'm very much like Sue_W and have been able to give more time and energy to the environment and wildlife, things I'm passionate about.
Hobbies are important for everyone, whatever their circumstances.

childfree not childless bunnyhop 🙂

tjagain
Full Member
childfree not childless bunnyhop 🙂

Oh Teej - stop being so pedantic.

 we need to remember the difference between the childfree from choice and those who are childfree because they cannot conceive.

Absolutely. When there's something that we crave and for circumstances that are outside our control we can't have, we need to give ourselves time and space to grieve for what may have been.

Oh Teej – stop being so pedantic.

New here? 😁

I know what he means I think. "...less" potentially carries an implication that something is missing. If I described myself as "dogless" you'd probably think "why, what happened to it?" or "oh, when are you getting one then?" rather than just presume that I don't have a dog. I'm equally elephantless and MIG welderless.

I'm definitely fortuneless.

No kids for reasons. Tried IVF but not successful and pretty tough given there was a possible success which then wasn't.
It's a good life with the dogs but we both would have liked kids. Funny that our lives never seemed settled enough for adoption.
I enjoyed being the guy who does in causes chaos then skips home for a beer although that happens less and less now.

SIWK here (single income with kids) and great opinions from everyone so far. Mrs F has just started work for a charity as bank staff so we’re still pretty much single income. I love my two kids dearly but sometimes look at close friends without them with a degree of envy.

Have a job that I don’t particularly like and causes a lot of stress but pays well. No real qualifications, two young kids (five and nine), a mortgage and being in my mid forties is a combination that makes me feel very much trapped a lot of the time. This can impact how I am at home.

Not sure what I’m trying to say here really to be honest. Love my wife and kids but miss having time alone. Mrs F needs company whereas I genuinely like my own company and miss being able to do what I want when I want to some degree. Best of luck in whatever you decide to do OP.

As part of an Early 40's and 50's DINK couple all I can say is we're loving life. We said goodbye to our beloved lab last year which was really tough as she was our daughter basically but we're stronger and happier than ever. I suppose we're lucky in that we never wanted children and so naturally ended up making friends with a lot of other people without kids. We have great social lifes some of which we've built over the last 12 years of our relationship, great standard of living and go on loads of adventures and travel. Also have lots of time for our parents and step parents who are starting to get on now. When we scale back work we also plan on volunteering for fulfilment.

DINKWA(Cat) here. We tried for a kid for years with no results, IVF was looking like an option however Covid happened. Then we were the wrong side of 40, can't afford private so looking like its not gonna happen, I'd still love a kid but she's not as fussed so thats how it is I suppose.

We are friend with plenty of other DINK's though and the freedom to bugger off on the bike all day when I'm not working is nice.

This thread has made me stop and think for a bit I think it’s fair to say.

We’re dual income and dual kids, both born via IVF. When we entered into that process we made a deal with ourselves that if it didn’t come to pass within the 3 goes the NHS would give us, we would accept it and continue life as a child free couple. I count myself as fortunate that everything did go according to plan, and we never had to see if we would end up accepting the deal we made with ourselves.

Certainly there was a period of life when as someone else above posted, we’d be outwardly happy for friends with their post-12 week announcements and then there’d be tears at home later. And thinking on it further, I have no idea which of my friends are child free by choice, and which ones are not. Much like miscarriages it’s just not spoken about, which must make it much harder to have real conversations about it with friends who may be going through the same (or at least, adjacent) trying periods of life.

I suspect we only really get to find out how people wanted things to go (and by extension, whether their lives matched their expectations) much later on when every one is too old to change their minds.

I love my children don’t get me wrong, but they can’t be your everything. And they should have strong relationships with adults who are not their parents and it seems like many people here are fulfilling that vital role. It takes a village, as they say.

I’m equally elephantless and MIG welderless.

Have a man hug for such suffering. Though the food bill and poop-picking bags for an elephant would both be a bit big.

On balance I enjoyed my kids from about 6 years old, prior to that I did wonder what we had done. (Herself was as pleased as punch with the whole ride and that was important for me).

I now have some step-grandchildren who refer to me as grandad which is nice and they are settling down to the routine of visiting their daddy one weekend a month. Hopefully it will be more often once he's graduated, my daughter though a BPD sufferer insists that he maintains contact. (She along with her brother remain a source of pride when I see what they have achieved for themselves).

This reminds me of all the arguments about tyre sizes - all bollocks - all tyres are good if they do what you want, but others are different so don't be a dick about it.

Life is most often how you adapt, see things, and make the best of them.  Kids included, (dare I say similar to dogs in many ways?), they come in all types, shapes, behaviours, good and challenging with rewards of mostly good and occasional less so days.

I'm DI 2xK WAD and enjoy the ups and downs, just like riding the bike (of any wheel size) and have mates of single, divorced, NK, with kids ebike, proper bike, and relish their company and perspective and if you don't? Change your friends.

I think the points above about it being harder organise with kids to plan is very valid.

James

DINK here through of combination of unable to plus a conscious choice. In our 50s now, and I echo lots of what has been said about investing tome and effort into your friends (with or without kids). What I would say is that not having kids does cut you out of a lot of casual social stuff that friendships can grow out of.

Simply because folks with kids always have that as a common su ject to start a casual conversation in the street.

If you don't have kids, folks will be less likely to strike up the conversation.

That can limit your circle of friends if you're not the type of person who socialises with strangers easily (to be clear, I'm very much in that camp).

My advice is to definitely invest that time and effort and try to utilise your job and hobbies to try and widen your circle of friends.

Folk with kids do come back around, but they will be posted mostly missing if you expect them to initiate stuff with you involved.

DINKWAD Here.

Middle to reasonable income, mortgage will be paid off when we're 47 (currently 43). We're off to America for 2 weeks in sep; decided to go last week. do whatever the hell we want, zero guilt/pressure. Planning to retire at 55.

But (and I make no apologies for this!) we've never wanted or even contemplated kids. We quickly got bored/sick of our friends child-centric lives/rants/stresses and let them to it. I do miss them, but not what they became. We're still in touch with a few, and look back at the others with nostalgia.

zero regrets, and we have the most spoiled dog in the world 🙂

<p style="text-align: left;">IVF - some practical advice for anyone thinking of going down that route:</p>
check your areas policy, they should offer 3 free tries if they follow NICE guidelines.  however not all do (hampshire offered 1 to us).  also there are age limits (hampshire 35 again not NICE) and you need to have been trying for a certain number of years naturally.  so find this stuff out for your area if you are thinking about it (may have changed as it was 8yrs ago..)

wrote some other stuff..... decided against posting it on a public forum...

Probably repeating a few things but my 2p

Whatever you choose / is chosen for you, be happy with it. If it turns out that you aren't going to have them for whatever reason, don't be one of those bitter people / couples that moan about kids all the time. Sure, kids (especially other people's kids) are annoying, but I'd encourage you to the 'takes a village to bring up a child' mentality and maybe you'll be an uncle to someone's kids, even a not-by-blood one (but not the 70's type....). Or maybe you won't but they're going to be around you anyway and if you make a decision to hate and resent them, and your (ex) friends that have them, you're going to miss a lot of time with your friends too. And I believe it is a decision, that is in your control to make.

My experience was it took a long time to have our first and there were times when we didn't think it would happen. Now have two, 19 and 17. There are times when they are the best thing in the world and times when I wish i'd drowned them at birth. Sometimes these times follow closely one another. In the early years at least they can be all consuming and friends with kids go on about them all the time because it's most of what they do. It passes. As others have said, accepting their state as parents but also doing adult stuff with them is a godsend. We don't want it to be all consuming, help us out with that! And as they become young adults - well, one of them is one of my my gig-partners now (when she's not at Uni); the other has his challenges but that's where being a Dad really comes in - someone up there said they had the manual but had never actually done it. Well, I had the manual, I had even assembled one reasonably well, turns out they didn't write a manual for this version yet.

And if you do become or choose to become a DINK them also my advice is make the most of what it offers.

A Uni mate of mine - him and his wife wanted kids and it turned out they couldn't. They were gutted, toyed with adoption, chose against. He'd worked city jobs and she'd also worked hard and built up a pot that would enable her to give up work to raise these kids that now wasn't needed. Not having kids allowed them to adjust considerably - she went into teaching and the low salary because she could; he worked a few more years and then switched and now works for a charity. They're interested in their brothers and sisters kids, and their friends kids, and have been able to makes choices and do things in their lives and careers that they couldn't if they'd had kids.

These would not have been the cards they'd have chosen, but they've played them brilliantly, and that would be my advice. Whatever happens, make the most of it.

Thanks everyone, been really interesting to hear everyone's perspectives, thoughts and advice.

I feel ultimately we are happy in our decision to not pursue any other means of parenthood and accept/make the best of our situation/freedom, but still most of what you have all said around putting effort in with friends and making new ones is very much solid advice and has helped me see things from a perspective that I didn't have before, so thank you all for that.

Funny actually around something I said in a previous post about how having friends through hobbies feels inauthentic well, when I think back all of the friends that I've made that have been and gone or are friends still, particularly ones made before my wife was in the picture, were all made through common interests and hobbies so my own previous point is moot 😄

Been a pretty thought provoking discussion for me this and again, thanks for everyone's input, including those who are DINKS it's been nice to hear about your own paths

Dinkwad here.

More her choice than mine. I wasnt interested when i was younger now in my 40s I'm slightly wondering if it was the right decision. however I'm sure thats more a approaching middle age "crisis" and period of reflection.

I think more folk are not having kids to be honest.  I can run a list of all my mates and its pretty much 50/50.

I always said if we where to do kids I'd rather adopt as theres plenty of kids out there that need help.

My only concern is who the F will look after me in my dotage. Ive a neice and nephew that ive named in my will so I'm hoping thats enough to bribe them....😄😄😄

No kids, never wanted them. Retired early 50's. Life couldn't be better.

DINKWAD here. Didnt want kids when I was married. Got divorced and met someone in 2015 who was ambivalent about wanting children.

Around 2018 we decided we would like kids. She fell pregnant fairly quickly and the scans showed we were expecting twins. Sadly she miscarried not long after, which was absolutely devastating for her. We tried for ages after but never managed to succeed.

She wanted to try fertility but I'm a pragmatist so the fact we were both over 40 meant the chances were <5% that it would work plus the looming thought of hitting retirment age with a teenager, we drew a line under it and moved on.

A Labrador puppy followed soon after and the missus is absolutely besotted with him.

Sometimes wonder "what if" but that notion is usually knocked out my head when I see some parents really struggling with their kids. Our neighbours are under 30 with three kids under 6, and to say it looks like hell on earth would be an understatement! Bedtimes sound like absolute warfare every night and I think the dad is on the verge of a breakdown. He was out in his car crying a few weeks back after the nightly debacle.

As this is a place where we are all sharing useful things to think aobut...

From the other side of the fence one of my best mates is no kids and I feel constantly guilty as I am hard to arrange day trips and weekends away.

One of my best mates is the only one without kids yet he is the hardest person to get comiited to a ride or a night out or a trip somewhere!

People with kids are happy, some are not happy. Some without are happy, some ar not. Some people with children live very free, spontaneous, seemingly exicting lifestyles. Some people without live what might externally appear to be a misery.

People, their lifestyles and their families, big small or non existent, dont fit into categories or silos, we truly are all different. Do what works for you, do the things that make you happy, make the effort to maintain friendships and relationships.