[Closed] Dinghy cruising - advice anyone?

unless your an absolute beast, getting a wayfarer on a roof will be tough. But they will be best for the carrying stuff and stability/safety on the water. Two people in a topper is a non-starter unless your just playing in a small bay. We had a GP14 when i was an early teen, and did day trips with occasional overnighter on the west coast of scotland. Even that would be a bit boat to put on the roof, but was ideal for covering a bit of sea. Have a look at Larks, or firefly maybe, RS Venture or RS quest maybe a good starter, not sure on second hand prices though.
https://www.rssailing.com/range/family/?gclid=CjwKCAiAjeSABhAPEiwAqfxURT_5m1OXOmqNOO_pwK7LpvZ7tn5f-PfbrCs7_q1KD77lpwBvSsohixoCdoAQAvD_BwE

Can you rent one for a couple of days first? That will give you an idea of what sort of boat will be suitable and how much the kids are interested in it.
Something like a topper will be small for an adult and children.
I'd reckon that anything big enough for "cruising" will be too big/heavy to get on a van roof.

I think the original question must have been the design brief for a Mirror dinghy!

A Wayfarer would be lovely, but would need trailering.

A Mirror fits the bill I'd say. But you will probably grow out of it a your kid gets bigger. If you've got the slave for storage I'd say go for a trailer and get an Enterprise.

Some thoughts:
"I promise to be careful..." / "I did a bit as a kid": Nothing will put your kid off quicker than a cold wet capsize out at sea, even if you get back up and running again quickly they'll get cold even on the warmest day. If it goes badly then it can get serious quickly. Even if you're experienced it can go wrong very quickly.

Until you're at a decent standard of sailing (and I'm not saying RYA1/2, I mean a bit of experience as well) then sail under safety boat supervision, which means probably a sailing club.

If it is at a sailing club, then they'll have dinghies to hire. Do this and work out what is best for you.

The temptation (which I also fell into) is to get the minimum qualifications, buy a boat and then put your kids off by frightening the living daylights out of them! And my experience was on a very small inland reservoir.

Happy to answer questions / assist in any way.

The limiting factor is the roof load- for most modern vehicles it is about 75-100kg and that’s with a decent roof rack/bars which themselves are part of the load.
A mirror weighs about 65 kg with spars IIRC so that would be a good choice to start.
A wayfarer weighs 170kg plus spars
A Gull is 90kg. Shame really as they are lovely small boats.

The majority of boats big enough for what you describe will be on a trailer.

Having sailed all the boats you list, the step to 2 adults and 2 kids needs a bigger boat imo.

For cruising, even in sheltered harbour, consider the seaworthiness of the boats. Things like Lark or Enterprise can be a touch flightier than GP14 or Wayfarer.

Having used the beast below for 5 years to day sail, I'd say go big. 😎

My dad managed with 4 of us in a mirror. Not a chance with my family just too much stuff! We need a 21ft Drascombe and are now looking at yachts.

Wouldn't recommend a lark as a beginner boat - ours seemed to like being upside down as much as it did being upright.

Anything much bigger than a mirror would be difficult to fit on the roof.

Thanks for the responses. A wayfarer would be great. The guys who sailed round Britain, 15 days - nonstop in a wayfarer proved the boats ability! I think the rs boats maybe out of price range, I think we are in the painfully unfashionable, peeling varnish, dodgy delaminating fibreglass territory.

Good suggestion on renting too, although the kids interest is non negotiable!

I realise getting it on a roof is rather optimistic and probably limits it to a mirror. So any reason why shouldn't I buy a mirror dinghy?

I've a great looking sailing club a mile away, but as I've never seen any of them going out with a fishing rod, I've never bothered!

If there were compromises to be made for me it would be the towing element. Once you have a tow bar it's not really a faff. In may ways it is less of a faff and it's just sat there ready to hitch up. Dad and kid is arguably easier too as a topper (and definitely a mirror)really takes two adults to get it on to a car and off whilst a light dinghy on a trailer can be unhitched pushed to the water and launched singlehanded with ease. All the crap on a roof mounted boat then fills the car. A boat on a trailer is effectively a trailer - all you boatie stuff and any other holiday crap (if going on holiday) goes in there no bother.

Funds allowing I'd be thinking something big enough for a little outboard too - maybe not all the time but to extend the swallows and amazons adventures. Even if funds didn't allow straight away.

I learnt in the late 70s with my parents in an Orkney Skua - think Orkney longliner with a steel centre plate and a mast. Sailed like a bit of a tank but very stable under sail and as it's basically a longliner it took an outboard, oars and did the adventures and fishing gig too. No racing class and not fashionable to your club sailor so prices are low. Not been made in decades but I've seen a few mint ones for sale with a trailer, cover and a serviceable outboard for just over a grand. There's one up here at Findhorn I see an old boy sailing singlehanded and makes me feel wistful for my childhood! I remember doing an overnight in ours, just me at 7-8 years old and my dad. Beaching it an hour or two from where we launched and camping. Caught my first fish from it too. If you really want swallows and amazons thats the sort of thing you want.

If buying now it would be a hawk 20. But that's a big lump of a thing, much more to tow. Also so capable that you'd be arguably tempted to go further than wise for your current experience levels....also about 10X more spendy.

I sail Yachts occasionally thru HM Forces, but have owned a few dinghies, motor and sail:

In order of sailing boats:

-Enterprise. Got all four of us on it when kids extremely young. Trailerable but a bit tippy and lots of bits for kids to bang their heads/limbs on. £££

-Mirror. Stable. Rowable and motorable. Slow as heck but I've covered decent distance at sea with one other. £££

-Laser Pico. An absolute hoot. No maintenance, could get me and 2 sons on board. Bombproof and roof-toppable. Rigs in seconds. Not great for long distances. £££

-RS Vision. Roomy, stable, motorable. Good cruiser. Trailerable too. Pretty bombproof. Worth fitting mast head float if off sailing with kids as can be slow to right. My kids used to ask me to capsize it all the time and we'd spend more time larking around with it inverted that than actually sailing!! ££££

I also want a cruising dinghy and a wayfarer is, IMHO a great bet. Stable, room for a family, motorable and trailerable. One has sailed from the UK to Iceland, so sea worthy. Campable too, which is a real interest as poole is where I sail mostly.

The boat pictured above (Drascombe??) is great too...see a few of those locally. ££££

If it goes on the roof, you'll have fun but it'll be cosy and not epic cruising.

Just my thoughts.

For the definitive books on dinghy cruising, look up Frank & Margaret Dye. They had a Wayfarer, which (as other posts) would be ideal, but not car top.

For an amusing story about cruising in a Mirror, look up "The Unlikely Voyage of Jack De Crow". Shropshire to the Black Sea.

the drascombe idea is good, as they are phenomenally seaworthy boats, with great versatility. but slow as a slow thing. So as your kids grow, you may need to change gears as such with the boat...My parents had one for a few years which they loved. My brother and i had an Uffa fox 18fter at the time, which was literally 3 times as fast, but was a bit of a handful in a breeze.

We had a Wanderer, a bit smaller and cheaper (and lighter) than a Wayfarer. Ticks all your boxes except for requiring a trailer as has been noted. I'm very taken with matt_outandabout's boat though. Personally I always found dinghy cruising a bit boring unless exploring a new and interesting location (the Lake District? The Norfolk Broads?). Pottering around a harbour (let alone a reservoir - ugh!) never did it for me and the boats were never fast enough. I think with kids go big on the adventuring angle.

the drascombe idea is good, as they are phenomenally seaworthy boats, with great versatility. but slow as a slow thing.

I agree. And I loved our work Gig.

However i was also saving up and speaking to this company about replacing the Drascombe's with an open deck, self draining one of these...
https://swallowyachts.com/bespoke/storm-23/

That's the problem with sailing - you can't afford the boat you want, and if you could, you just throw money at the thing...

Love the lugger I used to have one. In fact the chap I bought it off had it on a mooring in Poole harbour.

They hold their money I sold it for what I paid 10 years later.

Nice and stable we took loads of people out in Portsmouth harbour and Solent.

As said get some training tho it gets busy down there and the oncoming ferries appear very quickly....

There are plenty of good suggestions for suitable craft there. My only advice would be to get in touch with your local/preferred RYA Training Centre. Poole harbour is tidal and also busy with both commercial and pleasure craft. Not wanting to dampen your spirits but things can go badly wrong very quickly at sea - even in the relative safety of a harbour.  A basic level of qualification/understanding will give you confidence and also help keep you safe - not just you, but anyone who plans to go out regularly.

Once you feel confident and safe there's shed loads of fun to be had messing about in boats!

RYA courses are available to suit all levels and the kids should be encouraged to get involved too. In fact winter is the ideal time to get some theory in... 😉

Happy sailing!

Get a fireball.

Actually one up from a mirror is a miracle which is usefully bigger and a shed load prettier.

Laser Bahia might fit the bill here.
A bit of a jack of all trades, but on the brief go I've had in them, they're great fun to sail. Fast when you want, steady and stable when you want. Light, too. Not sure if you could roof it, but a great little boat otherwise.

Obviously though, the real answer is a Hartley Wayfarer and a trailer. There's a reason classic boats like the Wayfarer become classics.

Lol at joshvegas Fireball suggestion.

I've owned and/or sailed a number of the classes on here so here's a few specific comments as a dad who has introduced his kids to sailing in the last few years and whose set foot in a few.

Mirror (owned)
Excellent for 1 Adult + 1 or 2 children
Will be a proper squeeze for 2 Adults + child(ren) it's only 10ft long.
Can take a small outboard, easy to paddle or row and roof rack friendly.
Good sea manners, very buoyant (floats with the dagger board high in a capsize - can be a nuisance to right it but it's pretty stable in family friendly weather).
Facebook group - People who love sailing Mirror dinghies

Miracle - popular at my childhood club. Most of the good points of a Mirror but bigger.

Topper (own) - wet and wobbly, really only suitable for one (or two kids) - youth race / play boat

Lark - for the love of your child or chosen deity don't. I raced and sailed them for many years. Love them. Not at all suitable for sailing with a youngster. Propensity for nose diving off wind and death rolling. Need a cool head and some skill.

Enterprise
Bit tippy and wouldn't be my first choice. Hog rot can be an issue on early fibreglass boats.

I have an RS Vision for family duties. My lads are 8 and 11 and I'd not sail with both of them and my wife on board now - too cramped. If I was making that decision again I'd have bought a...

Wayfarer (or Wanderer or Leader) is much better laid out for four, good boats with excellent sea manners but older ones may need some looking after periodically. GP14 would be ok but a squeeze and not quite so docile ime.

GP14 - lots of variation in these between early and more recent ones around things like buoyancy and drainage. I remember them being fairly well mannered.

For cruising a boat with an aft mainsheet is better as it gives more cockpit space.

There's an excellent Wayfarer group on Facebook called Wayfarer Dinghy Group - I'm a member on there even though I'm not an owner - I have a history with them in my youth and the club has one for members use.

I'd also echo what others have said about experience and support cover before you take the kids out.

Poole has got some interesting tides to take account of and (like where I sail) it's shallow in many places so if you bin it then getting mast tips out of mud while watching over the little ones could be interesting.

Having said all that it's a great family activity, my eldest has done two seasons sailing solo now and is really coming along very well. Wondering if he will let me crew for him in a few years as I like the front end of the boat more. 🙂

Pick your moments, pick your days - nothing but the very best of weather and benign of tides and winds start small and build up.

I started with mine at about the age of yours.

I think you need to nail down your priorities - if it's mostly you + child your Mirror and Heron (also Gull) would be around the right size point. If you want more space and capacity I'd look towards Miracle, Wanderer/Leader, Wayfarer in increasing order of size mix in other suggestions above that I've skipped over.

CONSTRUCTION
Wood, you will have regular maintenance to do and a lot of it every few years when paint needs a major refresh

Fibreglass, lower maintenance, relatively light, can be a bit brittle on impacts but generally can be fixed fairly easily, vulnerable long term to water ingress and delamination if abused

Composite is often used to mean fibreglass hull and wooden deck - looks great in some classes

Rotomoulded - tough, heavy and a swine to repair compared to the others. Particular vulnerabilities are moulded in captive brass fittings stripping their threads or working loose and large unsupported flat areas to splitting (e.g. early RS Vision cockpit floors - ours has had some serious surgery).

Left field suggestion if you can find one....

The Laser 13. It was designed from the get go as a family cruising boat. Long since discontinued.

There's also the Laser Stratos but that's a huge beast although massively capable and very child friendly in terms of layout.

I was looking into joining the local sailing club where I'm moving to and they have a number of loaners available to members for free. Might be worth looking into rather than having to deal with the hassle of transportation/storage etc.

GP 14, Mirror, Wanderer (Smaller lighter wayfarer), Wayfarer, or Drascombe for any serious cruising. Gull is quite tiny but mighty. GRP or Ply so you can fix it. Plastic stuff is less likely to break but harder to fix. You'll not get anything that can take a load and kids on a vehicle roof.

Wanderer and Wayfarer groups are very active and have trial days. pending covid!

You sound like a beginner so join a club, try their boats, maybe start with a topper to see how keen the kids are then cruise when you have experience.

I've sailed lots,(I sail a wanderer) but first months of this year will be day sails and capsize training for crew and me before we even load a tent. If we are ever allowed!

If your boat is cheap, budget another £400plus for sails as it will be frustrating otherwise!

Wow thanks again for the in depth responses. The miracle is a new one on me and looks good.

Actually if you're going big... Get one of these beautiful beasts.

Thanks for the responses. A wayfarer would be great. The guys who sailed round Britain, 15 days – nonstop in a wayfarer proved the boats ability!

the boat's ability had been proven long before that - Frank Dye sailed them much further offshore in times before luxuries like breathable dry suits etc. What these people have all done though is show their sailing ability. Wayfarers are moderately forgiving, but are too tippy for one adult + 6 yr old IMHO unless the adult is good enough to sail it single handed (which you won't be at the start).

I think we are in the painfully unfashionable, peeling varnish, dodgy delaminating fibreglass territory.

beware cheap boats. they are money pits with the lovely benefit of being huge time drains too.

Good suggestion on renting too, although the kids interest is non negotiable!

well, we'll see about that - if they hate it you'll do it less and it will become a total PITA; if they hate it and you still want a boat it might be a different boat!

I realise getting it on a roof is rather optimistic and probably limits it to a mirror. So any reason why shouldn’t I buy a mirror dinghy?

how big is the van? will another adult be around to help or are you and a 6 yr old going to do this (don't underestimate how much of a pita) packing up and rigging a boat is when you are tired, cold, wet and want to go home. roof top means everything comes out. trailer means the mast comes down. Rooftopping a mirror would be enough to stop me bothering going out. Why the trailer fear?

I'd buy another cruising dinghy in a flash if the other half was interested - but she prefers a bit more comfort. Mirror would be about the bottom of my list! The only think going for them is they are cheap. IMHO too small for any comfortable cruising except the 1 day a year when there is a gentle breeze, no swell etc. quite likely to capsize if you cock up, homebuild = random quality; wooden = rotten; not trendy = probably lots of broken kit; definitely crampt with 4 onboard.

No idea what your budget is, but something like a drascombe would be much more forgiving; there's a lot to be said for an unstayed mast and if I was looking for your brief I'd seriously consider something like a Cat Ketch rigged Topper Topaz. They sell for about £1500 now, and will have some basic cosmetic issues, but IMHO only failed to become popular because of their unconventional rig meaning people who learned through RYA were facing something weird - but its set up that way because it was designed for pretty much your plan, albeit not for roof topping.

My dad got a gp14 when I was about 8 and my two older brothers used to sail it with me as mobile ballet.

I'd be stunned if you could get that on a car roof.

It was great and I enjoyed it but I mainly remember my dad nearly killing himself on the fumes when it came to re-do the varnish.

I used to sail lasers and toppers in the scouts and for a family I'd avoid toppers as too small.

The miracle is a new one on me and looks good.

Surprisingly good to sail - significantly better than Mirror or Heron.

Other left field - not sure how many are left - look up a Seafly and Mayfly. I sailed them lots for my first instructor gig. Really nice boats - stable, good space, accelerates instead of 'digging in' like a Wayfarer or GP14.

http://seaflymemories.uk/the-seafly-a-potential-cruising-dinghy/

Anyone else searching for cheap boats now despite knowing what a ballache they are?

Join the FB group "Sitting there rotting in a boatyard" for maximum dreaming about a moneypit.

very leftfield...have you thought about a small yacht? 2nd hand yachts can be found for quite cheap, whereas dinghies seem to be be holding strong (probably due to staycations). Something older like a Westerly Centaur for £7K would be great for day cruising with kids. Requires a small amount more skill and experience, but it's easy to sail.
You will have to find somewhere to keep it and you're annual running costs will be much more than a dinghy... maybe not such a good idea!

Had a Mirror (Wood)

Repaired it more than I ever sailed it

Never again!

small yacht

we had one of these (not this one) for a few years. Sleeps four, towed by a big car, sailed around Mull, Skye etc. Raced quite well as well. I think we got her for about £3k

Anyone else searching for cheap boats now despite knowing what a ballache they are?

Be *very* careful!

The small yatch is a good shout. Before we bought the lugger we got a sailing school to demo us our shortlist, a couple of hundred quid well spent.

Actually, the last few rya courses I have been on a fair few participants just do the courses to access boats as that's the cheapest way. 5 days sailing and tuition is only c 500 quid, so I reckon I 'll be joining them.

Wood boats look nice but they are very slow. I would go for a GP14 out of that lot, or a laser. If you are learning, get something stable and easy (1 sail).

I would take a Seafly over a GP14 any day. We had one for about 15 years, No.277 IIRC. Excellent estuary boat, very good in a seaway and much more stable than an Enterprise for example- I learned to sail on an Enterprise. Quicker than you would think too with a generous spinnaker. We used to take one adult (my dad) and three kids (us) on great day trips. A similar sized cockpit to a wayfarer but significantly lighter
Too heavy for a roof rack though.
Have a look
http://seaflymemories.uk/the-seafly-a-potential-cruising-dinghy/

As others said, TRAINING!

It's one thing knowing how to sail as a kid on a PGL trip with school, a whole different kettle of fish on a tidal harbour with shipping. Like knowing how to drive a go-kart, then taking to a motorway in a supercar with the traction control off and no brake pedal. Buoyancy aids might stop your kids from drowning, but they'll still be miles from shore with no hope of rescue even in Poole harbor. Someone has sailed round Britain in a wayfarer, but that's someone, not the boat.

Then I'd reconsider towing. There is no way you'll want to get a dinghy on the roof of a car on your own. Once maybe, a second time nope. Yes the original Mirror was designed to sit ontop of a Mini, but have you considered that the roof height of a car back then is probably half that of even a Berlingo! Then consider how you'll get it up and down a slipway. Anything heavier than a Laser solo? F*** that on a cold day once knackered! I can't get my Blaze up the gravel beach on a cold breezy day when I'm tired! Big boat, painter to the trailer, then attach the winch strap to the car and roll it back on that, jobs a goodun.

Drascombes hold their value incredibly well. Yes, it's a bigger investment, but you'll likely get it back if you take reasonable* care of it.

Older fibreglass wayfarers are bulletproof. They were always heavy and uncompetitive compared to the wooden ones. Hence why a 80's fiberglass one may well still be in good condition for under a grand, but a wooden one of the same era can be £5k (albeit at that price it'll be ready to race). They were built for cruising.

*most of this is in getting it on the trailer properly, they've heavy boats and I've seen a few there the rollers have been butted up against the "planks" and have split them along the "seam" as they bounce along behind the car where it's both strongest and weakest as a result. Buy carefully and upgrade the trailer with extra rollers if necessary.

Thanks everyone, as an update I bought a topper. Not because it fits any of my initial criteria (except roof toppabililty) but mainly coz it was £70!!! It should give me a chance to remember how to sail. A quick google took me straight to an 11 year old thread from here Here which seems prescient!!!

Towing is going to be easier than car-topping. If it's on a combi trailer you're likely (exact boat choice and launch site permitting) to be able to launch/recover single-handed, and if it's on your drive on a trailer it's always ready to go. From experience, it needs to be as faff-free as possible or you'll never go out.

£70…? Brilliant.... Enjoy.

It will only be a proven bargain once its afloat, and staying afloat!

We've been having some fun in a £50 Laser 4000 this summer, picked up for when it's too windy for the other boat. Nothing beyond a gnav strop gone ping or plop so far. Little video of some sunshine and a wheelie down the lake here:

Where did you people find such bargains?

I don't know why I'm asking, I don't need another toy...

I don’t need another toy…

I bloody do! £50 for that 4000!!!!!! Flipping nora. Why so cheap?

Good find on the £70 topper too. Nothing would ever get me back in a topper mind, though at that price getting you back on the water is brilliant. 'Topper Knee' was a common complaint from my instructor days. I genuinely don't think I could reliably get myself under the boom anymore!

When/if I have completed all the other tasks my life has ahead I'd love a project boat.

Laser 4000 for 50quid is rediculous.

I think the chap I sail with managed a deal between friends - meant the boat stayed at the club, and would get sorted. It needed a really good clean and some string sorting and didn't have a cover. Insurance and berth up for renewal I imagine too so a lot of work and some expense to sell on open market. It's great club where the ethos is getting people out on the water. The learning here I think is join a club and actively take part and make connections and doors open. We do also run a 49er (at greater expense), but not up to 20+ knot winds in that just yet. I hope we can get out more than the 4 times in 2021 and continue up the learning curve.

Back to the OP - enjoy the topper! Run the mainsheet properly and don't forget the bung. Hopefully a stepping stone to another boat for you all - but you will appreciate the minimal faff with the topper I'm sure.