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@bentandbroken - have a read through of the dignitas website, it certainly answered a lot of questions for us regarding my sister in law.
@pjay - not sure if its the guy you are referring to but Paul Lamb passed away the other day Paul Lamb
My brother, nephew and myself have still not been told that we are in the clear by the CPS, although prosecution is extremely unlikely its a fairly unnerving experience & my sil's ashes are still in Switzerland 9 months on due to covid restrictions which her elderly parents are struggling to deal with ☹️
I posted on this thread a year ago agreeing with previous posters pointing out that we afford our animals a better death than our loved ones.
Since then having witnessed my sister-in-law dying of cancer in our home I'm even more convinced that assisted dying should be enshrined in law. 5 days before she eventually died if she had been presented with a button to press to end it all she would have no question but our legal system made her linger. I marvel at the massive arrogance of our so called lawmakers presuming to pass judgement on people going though torment that I believe you cannot fully understand unless you are going through it yourself and denying them the option to end their suffering. Part of me wishes that karma catches up with them.
The objections come mainly from the Catholic church. Disguised and second hand lobbying and dressed up as concern for the vulnerable but its clear its faith based. their own campagining materials on euthanasia make this clear that they need to invent secular reasons for objecting but its actually about their faith
How effing arrogant. Use your faith to restrict what i can do in my life
Can you tell I'm angry with these backwards religious idiots?
Sorry thats a rather strong post. I didn't mean to threadkill
I dont think you did TJ.
I'm all in favour of dignity in dying. I fail to see any moral or practical arguments for sustaining life past the wishes or past any level of meaningful life of someone who is terminally sick.
The outcome is going to sadly be the same but with no control or benefit to the person at the centre.
Is there a petition or a link TJ so I can sign up and back this or have I missed the boat?
I don't think you did either TJ. My wife passed away about 9 weeks ago after a battle with cancer. I had to spend a month in a hospice watching her lose strength and pass away slowly and in pain. Every day she was conscious I had to reassure here that today could be the last, because she had enough and didn't want to endure the pain any more. The stress on the children coming daily not knowing if it would be the last time they would see their Mum - at what point should they say their last good byes ? And missing their Mum passing away because they can't spend 24/7 for a month in a hospice. And why....merely to assuage someone else's moral viewpoint, originating 2000 years ago from a world unlike the world we live in today, someone that has nothing to do with our family. Its cruel, its wrong and there is no justification for it whatsoever.
I think we have to be very careful about campaigning for assisted suicide from the viewpoint of seeing someone else die. Our viewpoint really should not sway the argument, only the person who is going through the problem should have a say. Unfortunately they don’t have a say for very long and can’t really campaign for a change in the law from their own experience.
You have to really be honest with yourself when you say you saw someone suffer and you would want them to have an AS option - is that because you want to feel better yourself and don’t want to see someone else suffer? There’s always going to be a part of you that feels that even when you’ve had clear wishes from the affected person.
I would request that we don’t blame religion wholly for wanting to stop assisted dying. There are many people who are not religious who are against it. I have always been against it and so is my wife. I think we are at a good place where we can let someone die relatively pain free when they choose to stop treatment. AD would always have to add in someone else to facilitate the death in some way which is extremely problematic. If it came in and 1 person was helped to die if they didn’t want it 100% (ie coerced or the decision made for them) then it wouldn’t be worth it. Life is too precious for it to be taken away without your consent.
I do appreciate there are lots of people on this thread who are very much advocates of AD and I don’t wish to upset them but we must all understand that progress is not necessarily bringing in AD. Staying where we are may be the best option for our society, and we don’t want to head off in a direction where we end up regretting what has been adopted, even though it may benefit some people along the way.
I think we are at a good place where we can let someone die relatively pain free when they choose to stop treatment.
If you think that you are kidding yourself. There are two examples directly above where that didn't happen despite the best efforts of the medical profession.
You have to really be honest with yourself when you say you saw someone suffer and you would want them to have an AS option – is that because you want to feel better yourself and don’t want to see someone else suffer? There’s always going to be a part of you that feels that even when you’ve had clear wishes from the affected person.
I'd call that just having common decency and compassion.
Its about honouring the wishes of the dying person. If they want to keep going to the bitter end then I'd help them do that despite being upset by their suffering. If they've had enough and expressed their wish to die (like my sister-in-law did) then they should be assisted in that.
A definite yes for assisted suicide. Having your mum ask you to kill her because the pain is uncontrollable and your parent knows a painful awful death is coming is not a situation I’d wish for anyone to endure. In no way should any religious group bear influence on the law. I’m assuming it’s the evil catholic cult that’s against it and lobbies for no change in the law.
My father went to his GP several years ago complaining about hot flushes. The GP did LFTs and eventually my dad got referred (via tropical medicine and virology) to oncology where he was diagnosed with a pretty aggressive and terminal liver cancer. He fought, had some treatment that showed positive signs for a short while, but he ultimately lost.
He knew he was dying. He was in a lot of pain and discomfort. In the end he died in his bed at home the day before he was due to go to the hospice for a couple of weeks to give my sister some time.
Anyway, long story short; he knew there was no getting better. There was only time and a lot of pain and he did not want that. He had to wait it out and die Oromorph'd up and unconscious. At least it was at his own house and not at hospital, but I know for a fact he wanted it to end. So yes, I support people making a choice. I would have still lost my father, but he would not have had so much pain and fear before the end.
\My Julie would certainly taken the option had it been there. I know this 100%
With the very best of care she still took 4 days to die in the end - mostly pain and fear free but she died of dehydration because she did not drink for those three days
Having seen hundreds of people die I can assure you that a pain free dignified death with your loved ones around you is a rare thing indeed.
Having looked into various other coungtriesin quite some depth there is zero evidence of any malpractice.
b239ftw
You have the right to refuse for you. You do not have the right to refuse for me. And yes - the vast majority of objections are religious based dressed up as something else
I think we are at a good place where we can let someone die relatively pain free when they choose to stop treatment
My sister in law had MS, she got to the point that using the joystick on her electric wheelchair wore her out - this is some one who cycled to Israel and back for her honeymoon, she wasn't receiving life saving treatment so not opting to go to dignitas when she could still self medicate the lethal drugs would have left her facing 20+ years as a bedridden vegetable. I have been interviewed under caution because I drove them to the airport, so no we are not at a good place.
Some heartbreaking stories on here, and I am very much pro-choice.
But we have to be careful, we are looking at different things I think; appropriate end of life care and decisions about easing and if necessary and wanted speeding that process up. Cases like TJ and Julie, which may be the matter of a few days but why do we have to drag it out even for a few days
And terrible cases like Dickyboy which isn't in my mind end of life care but is all about quality of life but where life can be prolonged and at least physically, sustainable, for much longer. Frankly, I wouldn't want to be in that situation, so absolutely I think it's an individual's right to choose, but it is a greyer area. How do we treat for example depression which often causes people to end their own lives rather than continue but very much splits opinions..... vs an existence like Dickyboy's SiL which I think most would accept is a reasonable choice for someone to be able to make.
As I understand it the proposed scottish law change would cover my situation but not Dickyboys and certainly not someone with depression.
Its a very conservative position on assisted death and also would only be self administered.
In the netherlands where physician administered suicide is available pretty much on request there has of course been some edge cases. However there has not been a single case whereby any element of coercion in inappropriate assessment could be seen when you look into it. This simply is not an issue anywhere in the world where they have some form of assisted dying.
the idea that the vulnerable or disabled would be coerced into suicide is a deliberate falsehood put out by the religious right. They know its bogus but its their best attack line.
Well I managed to get on several radio stations to tell my story and to help the cause. also in the sunday times. all really powerful quotes
One day we will have a decent legal framework for this that is suitable for the 21st century
Kudos to you TJ!
like far to many people on here and IRL i have a similar story to tell, probably the most surreal evening ive ever spent is arguing with my late wife about killing her! I'd promised to look after her and make her passing as peaceful and dignified as i could, she was worried that I'd be charged and lose my profession as well as losing her. Fortunately a blood clot meant i didn't have to, i certainly would have and not had a shred of guilt. my proudest achievement in life is keeping that promise and caring for her to the end.
keep up the fight and stay strong, be kind to yourself
Very much my story. JUlie would have taken assisted dying but refused to come out of hospital unless I promised to stay within the law
I too am proud of what I acheived.
The objections come mainly from the Catholic church.
This is unfair. The C of E also oppose it and actually have some power to stop it in the Lords. I'd presume the majority of other religions also oppose it.
Personally I'm all for euthanasia after seeing one of my grandparents and my wife's mother pointlessly kept alive with dementia long after they had any quality of life or even recognition of who or where they were.
Personally I'm in favour of it, and would be quite happy to head to Switzerland at end of life. OTOH mrs kcal, former palliative care nurse, is against it (not sure if that's vehemently or just firmly). In her view, many concerns are valid, and the issues can be alleviated with 'proper' palliative care..
Hi Kcal
At the risk of being a bit overbearing I have seen hundreds of people die ( as a palliative care nurse), I have seen loved ones die and I have had a family member activly euthanized
I can assure you that "proper palliative care" only alleviates the indignity of dying by sedating you. Its no substitute for being able to decide your time has come
Julie knew she was dying. We made the very best of her time and she had me a very experienced palliative care nurse with nothing to do but look after her and a very good team of district nurse and palliative care nurses overseeing the care.
She got the very best palliative care but she still had to have a catheter inserted once she became too weak to get to the toilet. she still had periods of pain and distress mercifully short and infrequent
hwer last week was mainly floating away on good drugs but was interspered with periods of poain and fear. she was also in respiritory distress some of the time
What purpose did that last week serve?
The very best palliative care turns dying in this situation from intolerable torture to tolerable but its still unpleasant, undignified and you can NEVER fully eliminate pain and distress
I would love to debate this with her. she is the ON:LY nurse I have ever known of ( apart from the religious) who think its wrong to allow folk some dignity in death
Just to be very clear the bill going before holyrood is only to allow those of sound mind ( certified by two doctors) with less than 6 months to live the ability to take a fatal overdose when they want. No doctor or nurse has to do anything active, the person themselves needs to adminster the overdoes
Absolutly zero chance of any coercion or anything else untoward and also in coutries where much broader euathanisa powers are available the is not a single case with any abuse ever been uncovered
The nonsense about disabled people and so on is a total lie created by the religious right to impose their world view on others. The catholic church and its anti euthanasia organisation "care not killing" actually have this as policy - not to use faith based arguements but to invent secular arguments. Its documented that this is the case and I have seen the briefing document
Care not killing has a leadership that is closely linked to SPUC - that hideous anti abortion organisation
Been holding off posting on this for a few days as it's a tough subject for me right now.
I think I'm of a stronger position on the subject than a few others (note that's not a stronger supporter) in that I'd be happy to see a system where people who feel they have outlived their usefulness earlier than the 6 month limit the Scottish Bill is proposing. I'd be happy to have, with the obvious agreed safeguards, a system where people could make the decision without having to be terminally ill. For my situation of not wanting children of my own I wouldn't really want to live past the point where I can no longer work to earn enough to support myself or become to physically unable to do my hobbies. That could be in my 50/60/70s but when I reach that point I want to be able to say "Thanks everyone!", have a big party and just leave. Seeing friends and family get old hurts me massively and I don't want to take that journey myself. Looking after my parents the last year or so has really cemented that in my mind, there's no way I want to live having to rely on others for everyday things and just be counting the days. I know we'll never get to that stage, certainly not in my lifetime, so just getting to the level that TJ seems to want would be good enough.
Well I managed to get on several radio stations to tell my story and to help the cause. also in the sunday times. all really powerful quotes
Any particular programmes I can listen to online?
just short clips - a quick quote not a long interview.
One was on smooth radio, one on LBC and another one I don't know
If you are really interested PM me - I have clips but they are not mine to publish.
I suspect that within your lifetime we will have a much more humane system and one that goes well beyond the very limited scottish proposal. I actually want the dutch system -physician assisted death on request
As of 2021, active human euthanasia is legal in the Netherlands, Belgium, Colombia, Luxembourg, Canada, and Spain. Assisted suicide is legal in Switzerland, Germany, the Australian states of Victoria Northern Territory, and Western Australia.
@reluctantjumper - I think i'm with you on the +6 months side of things.
@tjagain - great work. These things really do add up to make a difference.
To add to that list, the Australian Capital Territory passed a law that has been repealed (i suspect it's only a matter of time before it's reintroduced).
In Queensland a bill was introduced in May and by next year will join your list. The term here is "Voluntary Assisted Dying" - I thing that's a preferable term.
My Father-in-law is Dutch and I believe at least two members of his family have used the system. My aunt is an infirmiere - and has worked a lot in palliative care. She's made it quite clear that she will be away to Switzerland as required. Especially after what's happened to her mum.
Five years ago in September i made my last trip to England to see my Nan who was beginning to deteriorate in her early 90s. Depression, dementia were taking hold and she was talking at that point about how she had nothing to live for so would like to let go. She's been in and out of hospital, including ICU, and made impressive recoveries - still living at home with my granddad acting as carer. When COVID commenced my nan and granddad isolated so well. She had another hospital visit at Christmas and was unwittingly discharged asymptomatic COVID+ (the hospital are unable to explain). My granddad caught it and died a few weeks later. My nan was faced with the option she dreaded. On the way to the nursing home she attempted to jump out of the car on the A1. Tried to grab the steering wheel of my aunt's hire car and drive them off the road. She took the virus into the home. Who knows what impact that had, and then was unable to see family for however long it was. All the time not wishing to be alive. Months ago she gave up having skype calls with me. She's now in a wheelchair, largely uncommunicative.
It's an unremarkable story, I know, but where's the dignity in all that?
I suspect this year will be the first time i can remember not calling her on her birthday, four days before mine.
Thats tough Reeksy
All I can say is I hope those religious zealots that comprise the vast bulk of the objections rot in their hell for what they have done - the misery and suffering they cause.
Ironically, it was religious zealots (a) that saved my great-grandparents from the genocide that was being attempted on their people (b) by another group of religious zealots (c). Without those religious zealots (a) my Nan wouldn't have been born to be in a position to be refused the option of dying in the manner of her choosing by further groups of religious zealots (probably a, b, c, x, y, and z)
Appreciate the aim to debate, TJ, I suspect you're at the strongly held view for advocacy, mrs kcal is likely has come to the conclusion in the opposite view; I'm probably a loosely held view (but then I've not been in that close a situation either family or work, obviously).
I'm not sure debate would really achieve much - I've not got anywhere other than make my feelings known. I would have to ask her (as former SCH and MC nurse) if views are shared at all.
One important facet of that is always resources, and it's often lacking - even kit a small lack of resources of any kind can make such a big impact.
No worries Kcal
My very simple view ...
I have no objection whatsoever to people wanting to die in dignity after all that is their body and their choice ... and this is coming from my "religious" belief that life must be exhausted naturally.
Funny thing is that when I was talking to a colleague about the topic, he is a person of science by the way, he totally objected to the idea of euthanasia ... think he was afraid of being put to sleep by someone when he gets older. What sort of logic is that? He wants to live forever?
When you think of how long it took to make 'presumed consent' the basis for organ donation in this country, you'd think it might be prescient to start seriously talking about this sort of initiative, and how it would work, asap.
It will happen eventually - how many people will suffer while we talk it out?
A step in the right direction
It’s a hugely complex set of situations with many potential issues. I don’t think there are many simple answers.
However one thing I definitely object to is in the event of the person receiving care having made no wishes known - the medical team making a decision to cease active treatment.
This nearly happened with my dad, where although he had made his wishes known in the event of resuscitation - where he requested a DNR, he had given no instructions.
Despite this, the consultant took it upon himself to give the instruction to withhold fluids. I countered that instruction and we had another two-weeks where my dad regained full awareness of his situation, was able to clarify that under no circumstances did he want to end his life that way*.
As a result, We had some very valuable and lovely conversations. My dad knew it was the end, but he got the chance to say goodbye to the people he loved.
I cannot say how angry the consultants presumption made me - it didn’t help that he was an arrogant, patronising man with the bedside manner of Josef Mengele.
I honestly don’t know what would have happened if the consultant had got his way, but despite normally being a non-violent man, I think I would have likely been arrested.
Having been in potentially high-risk situations and having a life-limiting diagnosis, I have made my decisions clear and documented them.
*My dad had provided end of life care to a significant number of people in his professional life. He also knew what the end of life through dehydration was like - and considered it an inhumane end.
End of life thru dehydration is actually a much debated issue in end of life care with good research both ways
i suspect Julie died of dehydration at the end. Most people do Dehydration and pressure sores is what actually ends life for most people ( Julie had no sores)
IMO putting a drip in someone in end of life care simply increases the length of time they spend dying. Oral fluids should only be stopped if the person has a high risk swallow ie chokes and even then a patient can insist on taking the risk of choking. the patients wishes are paramount
IME all hospital admission where end of life could be an issue now have an advanced care plan put in place. Its remiss of that medical team not to have ascertained his wishes - badly so
Would you really want all patients who have not signaled their choices to be treated fully? Off to ITU and ventilated?
However you are spot on about decision making. That action by the consultant would be sailing very close to if not over the legal edge in Scotland. Here it is clear that the wishes of the person are paramount and a decent medical team should be ascertaining this - from the person or from the persons family and treat accordingly
I have fought for patients both ways - both for their right to be treated and for their right to be oblivious and out quickly
I think you have a very balanced view TJ and certainly more informed than me. I can only speak for the situations I have found myself in and what I want for myself.
Thats all you can do Jami. Clear decisions for you and your loved ones and make sure you know their wishes. You were 100% right to fight for your dad as you knew what he wanted. Its not about what we( family or professionals) want - the only consideration is what the patient wants
I am not really balanced - I am so angry about this ( and was before Julie died) but try to not come over as a ranting zealot!
My sister is a hospice nurse.
She's all for assisted dying. Her take on it is that it's happening to everyone so you might as well make it as good a death as you can.
Hi again folks
for those of yo in Scotland there is a private members bill going thru parliament right now and Sturgeon has softened her attitude to it
Can I ask all supporters of assisted dying to lobby their MSPs, Sturgeon and Yousaf and there is a daily record article to comment on
I bet you can spot my contribution 🙂
*emotional manipulation ahead warning* 🙂
Yesterday was one year since Julie died. To honour her memory I made another round of lobbying to MSPs and to Sturgeon to support the assisted dying bill currently in front of the scots parliament.
Once again I ask all of you who live in Scotland and support "assisted dying" to write to your MSPs with your support for the bill. There is concerted lobbying going on from both sides of this but the more support for assisted dying that arrives in MSPs post bags the more chance we have of this becoming law.
I think the first contact with MSPs and the first minister is best done via snail mail
All letters need your full name and full address as MSPs only answer for their own constituents.
This is the consultation paper on the bill. The consultation is now closed but I think it gives a good explanation of what is proposed
This is the dignity in Dying report. It makes for hard reading
https://features.dignityindying.org.uk/inescapable-truth-scotland/?fbclid=IwAR3do_vz6R6Prqjd5W6jGX2BnGSldY3G4mly5Sm7pm2d87pE0-7w9PCBhpw#:~:text=In%20research%20commissioned%20for%20this,final%20three%20months%20of%20their
You can find your MSPs here
https://www.parliament.scot/msps/?fbclid=IwAR0brkdhwyfw2uS-lJnHdRAbv-KmraBHAzUufitTULzijVosKu6tO05umTY
This is the Dignity in Dying website with links to a petition
https://www.dignityindying.org.uk/?fbclid=IwAR1QcKfNE-BGUNyh5SbURojX3ZgRG91czin-VREmVFLjiB1NeSRN0PY56Og
Those against these measures are well organised and are constantly making false allegations about these proposals and are attempting to manipulate folk into supporting their position using bogus arguments. We need as many supporters as possible to show their support. Please do to prevent others having to face what Julie ( and others) faced in her last week.
I am not going to publish the letters I have written here because quite honestly they will be upsetting for many but if anyone wants to see them off forum then feel free to PM me.
Letters are best written using personal examples delivered in a non emotional way but detailing the emotional and physical distress both the dying person and those around them faced and how assisted dying could stop that distress. If anyone wants some assistance in writing letters I am more than happy to help.
Please take this step and please lobby your MSPs. Do it in Julies memory and in memory of your own loved ones
Thanks
Thank you TJ for the update. I signed the Dignity in Dying petition a while back but I will write to my MSP today,
I just can't get my head around what sort of cruel person thinks they have the right to deny someone the chance to die when the time is right for them, rather than endure more days of pain and misery with the same inevitable outcome.
Ta.
Its almost always those who think their adherence to a deity allows them to impose their world view on others
Its almost always those who think their adherence to a deity allows them to impose their world view on others
Absolutely this - see also women's rights and abortions.
The main organised opposition group in Scotland has amongst its directors activists from SPUC - the anti abortion group. They also put out an internal briefing paper that stated they they could not win the debate on religious reasons so to dress up their objections on secular grounds)
I have no objection to them not wanting to take advantage of the provisions. Indeed I have fought for a religious man to have futile treatment because of his religious convictions ( very much against my judgement but my judgement does not count. Only that of the patient)
I have huge issue with them imposing their worldview on me.
Final bump to ask once again that folk write to their MSPs
I have been getting personal responses and some signs that MSPs minds are changing. Its well worth doing the letter writing if you feel we need a change in the law
Democracy in action!
Ok I know I said before that it was the final bump but I feel like doing another. sorry 🙂
With the change in first minister we now need to lobby him. We had got Sturgeon to change her view from a firm no to a maybe yes. We need to make sure Yousaf knows the depth of feeling about this
I have been working hard at the lobbying. Several rebuttal letters published in newspapers after anti assisted dying pieces from religious bodies. I have been invited to do a speech in front of a bunch of politicians. I have had contact with folk doing a TV documentary on the topic and hope to be in the documentary.
Lobbying can make a difference. we are winning the argument in Scotland. Lets keep the pressure on folks
anyone who wants help or advice writing letters PM me
There is very much a case for Dignity in Dying - having sat through a whole week of MIL 'passing' after all treatment was withdrawn. The nurses really struggled to get the medication right to keep MIL from getting distressed. It's remarkable how the body just doesn't want to 'stop', but horrendous to sit through it 24/7 for a week.
Well yesterday was an interesting day. I was at the scottish conservative and unionist conference. Dinnae fret folk - I've not lost my marbles. I was there for a fringe event in support of Liam McArthur's bill on assisted dying. I spoke at a fringe event and I took part in the debate on the bill at another fringe event.
One things is clear. The opponents of this bill are even more vile than I realised. They are extremely well funded by Brian Soutar and the american evangelical churches. They will lie, obfuscate and twist to try to block this bill. They prey on the fears of vulnerable people. They invent fake secular reasons to object knowing they cannot win on a religious argument.
I spent some time staffing the stall Dignity in dying had in the main hall. We had a continuous stream of inquiries that on the surface seemed reasonable but were actually activists from the anti side ( Care not Killing) looking to try to trap us in some statements that they could twist in the debate. They had clearly paid for a large number of activists to be there and the meeting we had they clearly set out to wreck our event
The so called "debate" was a clear set up and ambush with it being rigged for the anti side and loaded questions that on the surface appear reasonable but where done in a way that it was very hard to answer in any way without giving them ammunition in the vein of " have you stopped beating your wife yet"
I have no issue with those of faith making the anti argument based on faith as the moderator of the church of Scotland did recently in the scotsman newspaper where I got a rebuttal piece published. I have huge issue with these fundamentalists who believe its Ok to "fib for god" in their own words and who are dishonest about their motivations
Do not betaken in by these folk. They are very dangerous. these are the same folk behind the anti abortion movement, they oppose equal rights, they oppose reproductive rights and they have no shame in lying to get what they want.
I did get a little intemperate after my question in the debate but the anti arguing against lost his temper completely and looked a complete clown as I didn't let him away with diverting it and skewered him on a point. I kept pulling him back to the precise point which was - when even the best palliative care is not enough do people have to remain in pain? I finally got him to admit yes 🙂
I'm not calm- I am furious 🙂
Funnily enough I was absolutely fine - no anxiety beyond a reasonable little bit - although I did blow up when the anti doctor tried to patronise me and divert my question away from my point 🙂
I was fully expecting crippling anxiety but it never happened. Gawd knows why
At the risk of boring the arse off you all, anyone who wants to get involved in either Scotland or England please either PM me for pointers or get in touch with Dignity in dying directly
they need financial support and they need people with stories to tell and I guess other skills as well
I was fully expecting crippling anxiety but it never happened. Gawd knows why
I suspect deep down, in the deepest part of your psyche something in you knows it's too important to let pesky things like anxiety get in the way. So a good dose of adrenalin and you're good to go.
Just take time to decompress a bit afterwards though!
Bumpity bump
sorry folks 🙂
the religious fundamentalists are gearing up their opposition to this bill and spreading vile lies about it. We need the vocal support of all you supporters
There are various bits running on facebook where the religious fundamentalists are spreading lies. Please get involved and counter their lies
Join dignity in dying, sign the petitions, write to the first minister and your MSPs OK its a rather loaded poll but even so
https://action.dignityindying.org.uk/page/119614/data/1?ea.tracking.id=Fb_ads_Scot_API23&fbclid=IwAR1eMnq8uBGdvIsC4_sXrhNFpwqbdh_4gdd6YPRczsUPs798XMbdJVd0NZo
Done.
I've added my name to the UK one Dame Prue Leith has on the Dignity website
Ta chaps - every bit helps! We are winning thew arguement - but we need to get our politicians to be brave and to support this. Its not easy for them especially given the concerted campaign from the religious right funded by american evangelicals so letting the politic ans know of your support is important
One of the folk making bogus objections is a paralegal and has the law firm on their facebook page. Would I be wrong to out them to their employer for lying on facebook? i am so angry my judgement is clouded.
One of the folk making bogus objections is a paralegal and has the law firm on their facebook page. Would I be wrong to out them to their employer for lying on facebook? i am so angry my judgement is clouded.
That seems a perfectly legitimate thong to bring to their employers attention
Don’t see why not- I’ve had a few jobs where they had a social media policy so that they don’t get tarred by a numpty posting shite.
They've made their employer public knowledge so you could ask the law firm if they share the beliefs?
Sad story in the news of a desperate man in Cyprus who euthanized his suffering wife. I speak to so many people now who face that dilemma.
Ta
I was “lucky” my Dad got done by a heart attack with no prior ill health big shock & a lot for Mum to deal with, whereas my wife & her family had her Dad deteriorating with dementia for 9 months until he died last month.
Seeing what he & the family went through (even in the year or so before the last 9 months) makes me believe there has to be a better way.
Fully support you in this still TJ, but as I'm in Wales I don't know how I can support your efforts u there as there's no discussion going on about it here.
There is also a UK wide proposal as well in a much earlier stage. https://www.dignityindying.org.uk/latest/
so you can lobby your MP over it and also lobby the welsh government
Have signed both the Scottish and UK petitions.
Will also write to my MP, the dis-honourable robert jenrick.
Definitely out the paralegal to their employer as they appear to be attempting to establish 'legitimacy' for their personal views by quoting their employer's name.
Keep up the good work TJ.
Signed, Pru Leith's letter. My mother turned her face to the wall to ensure she died as quickly as possible. That took a week and was particularly horrific for my dad (I dissociated from it all and have paid the mental health price since, worth the admittance fee but still crap).
Scottish survey as posted above
The first question is a bit weird.
Should someone with a terminal illness be forced to suffer against their wishes?
Why use the word "force" in the question? Can a person be forced to have terminal illness?
Assuming the person has Not been inflicted by someone with the terminal illness like slow poisoning etc (my part of the world they do that), the illness is either inherited in their own DNA or through their own individual consumption like eating loads and tonnes of unhealthy or contaminated or parasites infected food.
Although I am not an advocate of "suicide" (my belief of karma etc), I have No objection to anyone who wishes to end their own life as they see fit. Their body, do as they like.
If I had terminal illness (I don't want treatment btw) and someone says die you silly person, I would happily accept that but if they wish to prolong my suffering that too I am fine as I just want to feel the severity of the suffering (repay my karma etc). End result is the same - death. No, my organs are Not for donation and living beings don't deserve to have mine. Just cremate me and use me as fertiliser I don't care.
I also find the notion that someone would misuse it to "murder" someone with terminal illness is rather weird. I mean, if that's the case then either you have too many enemies, unloved or just unfortunate to meet someone who want you dead, either way why continue living or avoid the inevitable?
I get what you are saying chewkw but this is a sensitive subject that requires fairly careful terminology to avoid offending folk. Engage carefully!
I was on the telly! OK only STV borders but even so I got a chance to make Julies story heard.
Very interesting event at Holyrood as well - one fascinating thing from Canada is that the richest folk have the best access to palliative care - but are also most likely to take advantage of assisted dying - so unlike the lies from the anti side that proves that its not poor access to services or poverty that drives assisted dying requests!
7.50 in this one
https://www.itv.com/news/border/2023-09-19/catch-up-on-representing-border-19th-sept-2023
13.40 in this one
https://www.itv.com/news/border/2023-09-19/catch-up-on-representing-border-19th-sept-2023
Interesting programmes overall
A piece in the guardian that could do with a rebuttal or two if anyone fancies doing so. and yes I am on my soapbox again
@tjagain - not sure if you'll have seen this?
BBC News - Could assisted dying be coming to Scotland?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-68674769
It's a bill that's been bouncing around for a while, and by the sounds of it, is not really up to much now after the input from members who've discussed it with the churches, pressure groups, etc. The recent assisted suicide of Caroline March shows that this type of bill still leaves many without hope.
Very personal to me, being a motor neurone disease sufferer.
I am fully in favour of dignity in dying.
Argee
That really is not so. The bill has not been weakened at all. Indeed strengthened in one areas. Religous groups have not been given the opportunity to water it down and its not been kicking about for ages.
Liam McCarthys bill is a completely new attempt and has little to do with earlier bills
Its now heading to committee for detailed scrutiny.
We have 85% of the population in favour and a majority of MSPs. All parties have agreeda free vote not whipped
I think it will go thru this time
We'll see, free vote sounded more about allowing MSPs to vote within their personal religious / other beliefs, so that majority of MSPs i don't think will be as big as you think.