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Am I right in thinking these are a consumable albeit with a relatively low frequency?
What I'm getting at is...
Is it a foregone conclusion a car with one will need it replacing during the normal operating life of the car (say prior to ten years old)?
If so what's a rough kind of lifespan for a car that's had mixed use in mileag terms?
What might one cost fitted for a large estate (Mondeo/v70 sort of size) just roughly?
Mrs g-d has suggested the venerable mk3 Mondeo that we use as family wagon and my daily driver is due replacing but I don't want to drop 10k on a car and then potentially get a flipping great dpf bill a year in without knowing what I'm getting into.
I was originally going to go petrol but there's not much choice (3 potentials in a 50 mile radius). Opening up diesel option gives a much greater choice.
Thanks all 😀
Yes they are consumables, and the good news is there is pattern parts coming on line so cost is coming down. As for life span depends on how you drive, long trips, short trips etc. But replace some at 60k and others at 140k
Am I right in thinking these are a consumable albeit with a relatively low frequency?
I don't think they're meant to be in the strictest sense - ie not like cambelts. I think that a lot of garages are shrugging their shoulders and refitting them without figuring out why they clog in the first place. They might be like shock absorbers or exhausts in that they should last a pretty long time unless abused or have a hard life, as benji suggests.
The car knows how clogged the DPF is, so someone with the appropriate code reader should be able to tell you what sort of state it's in, I think.
Cool thanks. Molgrips that's kind of what I thought, ie they're not a regular-ish service item like brakes but if I bought a five year old car and ran it up to 150k I might expect to pay for one.
Anyone got a feel for costs?
No, my car hasn't got one 🙂
I think it could be £5-700. However, it has been suggested that the ones fitted to newer cars are now much better - or are better managed. What's that you say, you can't get a newer model car for £10k? Well, my mate just bought a 11 month old diesel Superb Estate for a little more than ten grand. Superb in more ways than one.
Or just get rid of them.
Whilst they do work in a sense and do arguably reduce emissions, the DPF will destroy your full economy (by about 5mpg in my car) and then burn even more fuel when it regenerates (burns off all the 'stored' particulates)... plus because of the increased exhaust back pressure they can also reduce the general efficiency of your engine in the first place, thereby truing more fuel.
If you do mainly short journeys they might not ever regenerate (they need a sustained period of around 10-15 mins of rapid driving) properly.
Best thing to do is have it removed (and replaced with a dummy box) and mapped out of your car's ECU... Although if discovered its an MOT failure and £1000 fine. Mr MOT can't physically check it so there are ways around this during inspection.
At the end of the day if you look after your car and use quality fuel (not that cheap rubbish at the supermarket) your emission will easily be in the legal limit anyway. So there's no need for one.
I wouldn't delete a dpf (although I know there's reasons why some might). Leaving aside the questionable emissions if I got caught its not only expensive but could potentially cause employment issues.
What timbud said.
Pendle performance will sort it.
Theres a guy using a Mondeo as a long range taxi and is coming up to 300k miles on the same dpf and same clutch etc on Pistonheads, so changing on a regular basis like shocks may not always be necessary . A mate had a Mondeo up to 130k and although his dmf went at 110k , the dpf was still the same when he px'd if, as it was electrical issues as to why he chopped it not engine and components.
Timbud - utter shite.
Fuel quality has no bearing at all on nitrogen oxide emissions and the lower temperatures generated by an EGR would still produce soot. You would never pass a proper emissions test without one which, I can assure you, the Ringlemann smoke test performed at an MOT is not.
Buy the car. When the DPF goes kaput get rid of it and then wish you'd done it sooner
Don't delete it. I do not want to breathe in your engine shite, and neither do you.
It's there for a reason. They don't come up with this stuff for a laugh.
I went petrol this time as i could not afford a new diesel and the age of vehicle I would buy would mean having one with an early DPF arrangement so for the first time in years I have a petrol also Government is going to hammer diesel IMO its such a good excuse to raise revenue its already started here in France with tax increases on diesel and talk of banning diesel cars in Paris by 2020.
How dare the government raise revenue! What a disgrace! They should build roads, fund schools and hospitals for free! It's our right!
[i]I do not want to breathe in your engine shite, and neither do you.[/i]
wot he sed.
I'm a diesel car owner myself but I understand what the DPF is for and that removal is not only illegal but not good for anyone who's near the car when the engines running.
I'm a diesel car owner myself but I understand what the DPF is for and that removal is not only illegal but not good for anyone who's near the car when the engines running
Remove the DMF and you'll have one of the safest cars on the road!
Thanks,
Molgrips I have no intention of deleting one much like I wouldn't remove the cat from a petrol car (even my track car had its oem cat left in).
One more silly question when did these baby robin and kitten saving devices first appear?
If I get a diesel I really want the cleanest option I can afford with 140 HP ish but would rather not have the very early technology (so might stretch the budget a bit if necessary).
Timbud - utter shite.Fuel quality has no bearing at all on nitrogen oxide emissions and the lower temperatures generated by an EGR would still produce soot. You would never pass a proper emissions test without one which, I can assure you, the Ringlemann smoke test performed at an MOT is not.
Get rid of the egr too... In what world do you ever think is good for your engine to pump back in dirty air? How can that help except to destroy your engine and coke it up.
Quality fuels do help you engine in the long term. Thats just a basic fact.
Very few cars on the road would actually pass a proper emission test purely because the vast majority of drivers don't look after or do simple maintenance on their cars... thats why the MOT is like it is.
Don't get me wrong here the DPF is a good idea, but as ever with EU emissions, the implementation has been rushed through as cheaply as possible so the products we left with on our cars are just not up to the job.
It was the same with Catalytic converters back in the day... Instead of investing in lean burn engines (which would have the same result) they went for a cheap bolt on fix. Knee Jerk reactions never have good outcomes.
Legislation for DPF came in for 2007 and newer cars I believe. We had a Fiat 4 x 4 from 2006 which had the first generation dpf, which may have been a bit crap. It failed to regenerate, took the turbo with it and after two remappings, dpf removal and several stressful limp home trips we ditched it. Two garages and one diesel specialist were at a loss. I suspect the tech may have improved and it could serve us right for having a fiat - but we have a petrol now as we do a lot of slow commuting and work driving on urban roads.
There has been research that suggests that dpf's breakdown the large particulates in to very fine ones that escape the filter. These super fine particles are buyont in the air whereas the larger particles fall, so potentially making it worse.
Unless you are in a commercial vehicle or do astronomical miles you should be driving a petrol.
In what world do you ever think is good for your engine to pump back in dirty air? How can that help except to destroy your engine and coke it up.
It reduces nitrogen oxides, which you don't want your air full of. That's how it helps.
Nasher the problem is finding a decent choice of large second hand petrol estates. Nobody has bought them for best part of a decade so they are thin on the ground. I've been searching within 50 miles of home since November and currently i have found three that fit the budget (and I missed out on one I really liked over Christmas), space and other needs of the family, my work and intended use. I'm no badge tart either I've tried everything from Mercedes to Hyundai. It doesn't help that so many of the estates are so compromised in shape to make them "stylish" so they are ruled out even before engine considerations.
I do between 12000 and 20000 a year (yes really that variable) and over the life of the current car average 15000 to 17000 so I am probably on average on or just past the tipping point for cost/benefit. I also do a lot of motorway miles
Fwiw I REALLY want a petrol one but I am thinking about a plan B.
It doesn't help that so many of the estates are so compromised in shape to make them "stylish"
To be fair to the manufacturers, if you are referring to the swoopy back ends that's usually to create a safe passenger compartment. Having had an older Passat estate, the square kind, it's alarming how little protection there was back there.
In regards to DPFs it's worth remembering that there's 'clogged' and there's 'full'.
I assume most manufactures there's a similar system, but with VAGs it should be almost impossible to clog one - unless you're a bit stupid anyway.
They can't hold much soot, but it would still take weeks and weeks of constantly driving short trips to start to cause it problems - but if you do at 45% the ECU will attempt an 'Active' regeneration - once you're over 38mph it will take a few measures to heat the DPF up to about 400c - which does mean it'll use a bit more fuel, nothing meaningful though. after 5-10 mins of this it's clear.
However, if this hasn't been possible (driver still only making short trips) at 50% full there's a light on the dash to tell you to clear the DPF (it's all explained in the handbook) and the active regeneration becomes more aggressive.
The dash warnings and regeneration becomes more and more aggressive until you reach 75% - many weeks would have probably passed at this point with the driver being pretty pig-headed at the things beeps and begs them to drive a bit further - anyway up to 75% you can still clear it by driving at over 38mph for 10 mins, that's it - you don't need to find a test track and drive at 130mph for an hour till the red is white hot, over 38mph for 10 mins, that's it.
Finally, if dip shit owner is still ignoring it, it will reach 95%, go into limp mode and you'll need a new DPF - no doubt they'll arrive at the garage bleating about how it's all very unfair and it "just happened", the car equivalent of how you were "just riding along" when your shock failed.
Having said all that though, the soot doesn't completely disappear, yes it gets burnt but the resulting ash remains and when it's full, it's full - it's 175ml of ash with most VAG diesels and it's all pretty much set in stone, a certain amount of diesel, will produce a certain amount of soot with in turn produces a certain amount of ash - how quickly you fill it up depends on how much fuel you burn - if you clock up your miles doing 50mpg+ on the motorway you'll probably never need one, it'll go to the crusher wearing its original DPF, if you're in town doing 25mpg it'll fill twice as fast.
It doesn't stop a lot of garages using it as an excuse to charge a huge amount to replace it, it's becoming the default answer for a lot of them.
So it goes back to the same old thing, if you're mostly on the motorway, diesel is best, if you're mostly in town petrol (or electric) how many miles you actually do doesn't really come into it.
Don't delete it. I do not want to breathe in your engine shite, and neither do you.It's there for a reason. They don't come up with this stuff for a laugh.
No, my car hasn't got one
did you get rid of the passat or just two faced?
I thought it had one when I got it. Can't afford to change it now.
If I'd known and had the choice, I'd have got one with.
Just popped back to say thanks all.
Going to check out the petrol Passat I've spotted so got something to compare against the 1.6 petrol ecoboost Mondeo I've tried.
Failing that I might give another diesel a look. But it sounds like avoid the low milers!