[Closed] "Diesel engines vehicles could be gradually phased out...."

Weird ...I thought newer diesels put out less pollution than petrols

In mildly-related news, I've just got 550 miles from £53 of diesel, in an Insignia.

I'm becoming something of a Vauxhall/Opec stand-off fanboi.

As I've understood it, diesels produce less CO2, but unless they have a particulate filter, the small (<10micron) soot particles are more damaging than CO2 - to short term human health, if not longer term planet health.

Where does this put old diesels running on veg oil 😉

Well back in the days of the old 1.9dt peugeot/citroen engine it was a purely mechanical engine with the critical components (pump and injectors) made by the germans (bosch) so it is no wonder they were more popular than the electronically controlled petrol petrol engines let alone for their lower fuel consumption and less risk of blowing head gaskets!

But yes, lots of pressure to get rid of diesels these days. Some german cities have zones were you are not allowed to go if you have an older diesel due to soot.

Modern turbo petrol engines are getting very good mpg but I think it is a bit of "lets get sooty horrible diesels out of cities" combined with "lets make people buy new cars to help the economy". Diesels are still more efficient which is also a factor but pretols are catching them up and if they can hit big heavy low mpg cars more then people will buy smaller, lighter petrol cars.

I think we are also seeing the move to electric vehicles. They won't openly say it as it won't go down well but it is a gradual shift and one day we will find that all you can buy is electric (which I can't wait for) and IC cars will be pressed harder and harder to get rid of them.

A technician in a Lexus garage told my father that Lexus are going to stop selling diesels because it is becoming too problematic to conform to all of the emission constraints.

I can see the passenger car market becoming increasingly petrol lead in the coming years but not exclusively (at least not in the next five years).

Some of these new low capacity petrol turbo engines get similar mpg to my older diesel estate but without the soot and without the weight over the front axle from a heavy engine.

But my suspicion is they will not deliver the lazy low end torque of their diesel equivalents which imo is a nice way to drive if your main car use is chewing up A roads and motorways for work or with your family on board.

I do question whether these petrol engines are the right choice for larger cars that spend their lives chewing up motorway. With a number of larger cars hitting 60+mpg and lower co2 emissions than the petrol equivalents there is still a case there in my view but for town focused use petrol all the way.

I was hoping to hold out and make an electric car my next, couldn't quite make it hopefully the next.

Some german cities have zones were you are not allowed to go if you have an older diesel due to soot.

They have restrictions based on emissions, not aimed particularly at restricting diesels, lots of older bigger engined petrol cars also fall foul.

They are pushing hard on this early on without ensuring the next gen of low displacement forced induction vehicles are actually up to the task for a cars life time....

It's possible I suppose, they'd have to change the company car rules first though - to get a petrol with a similar Co2 level to an everyday 150-180bhp diesel you're looking at something a with less power and half the torque which is okay in a little city car - but they're not great in a family sized car.

I'd love to have a petrol next time for a change, but the petrol version of my car does 33mpg on the motorway instead of 55mpg and would double my fuel costs - its a bit faster though.

I have a diesel hire car at the moment and it has reminded me why I got rid of my last diesel car for a petrol. It is a noisey, uninspiring, smelly thing that is crap in the city. I was considering a 330d for my next car based on how nice my father in laws 530d is but it is going to take a very extended test drive for me to buy a diesel now. The sooner I can drive my car the better.

Have a little faith Trail Rat.

I test drove the 110 diesel and 115 TCE (1.2l variable valve timing turbo petrol) versions before buying. The TCE has enough torque, will run happily at very low revs, makes less noise and has a much wider useable rev range. 5.7l/100km (6 allowing for speedo error) in the first 18 months of use in a 1200kg. I don't wish to get into petrolhead eulogies but have a look at torque and power curves before you dismiss these small turbo petrol engines.

I'd like to see hybrid cars with bigger batteries and smaller petrol engines of about 3Obhp. Enough to maintain the motorway speed limit without electric for long journeys and maintain a good charge at lower speeds around town.

Urrgh! Filthy horrible diesels.
LPG powers my wagon. One thousandth of the pollution of diesels with just a hint of arome de crepe suzette from the exhaust.
Converting a car yourself is a mugs game but there are plenty around, already done,for buttons!

Was it a dacia edukator ?

When i went to test drive dacias , the only one i came away thinking well that drove livably was the 1.5dci. The 1.2tce was short on legs noisy and generally out of its depth on a dual carridgeway at the speedlimit - it was your own praise of the tce that even got me into the drivers seat.

This was a logan mcv.

The bulk of my miles are at 70mph , i avoid town centre like the plague.

Lso they have not been out long enough and got to high enough miles yet to be proven for me to buy into it .... Equally i wouldnt buy into modern diesel tech either.... Id probably just play it safe with an na petrol of the 1.6 flavour in todays market till we get a track record.

The latest euro 6 cars are so complex to pass regulations I cannot see small diesel engines lasting for (still being produced) for the next 3/5 years... Big 2.0L stuff will still last in luxury stuff but petrol mpg has come on so much with 3 cylinder vvc turbo changed 150bhp and relatively simple technology and repair!!!
I still prefer the drive of a diesel but with now 3 separate exhaust filters (pre cat/PDF/add blue filter and the issues of injectors running at 2000 bar of pressure and customer having to top up add blue between services it's becoming a huge PITA...

Love diesels, so much more grunt on the hills etc.

Some german cities have zones were you are not allowed to go if you have an older diesel due to soot.

Not just Germany...

https://www.tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/low-emission-zone

Soot isn't really the problem with diesels, it is NOx - London and many other UK cities are way over the European legislation pollution limits.

The tailpipe NOx limits are pretty low for both diesel and petrol engines, but the test cycle is not representative of a real drive cycle (which is why it is rare to get near the fuel economy figures).

A petrol, however it is driven has low level of NOx emissions. A diesel however produces huge amounts of NOx at higher loads - these regions are not tested.

Later in this decade more realistic drive cycles will be introduced, along with Urea/adblue based SCR systems on many diesels which reduce the NOx emitted from the tailpipe.

Truck/bus engines are tested in a different manner, which is why for Eu6 they all have SCR systems already.

There is an image on this page showing labatory vs real world tailpipe emissions for petrol/diesels against the different emissions standards.

http://www.theicct.org/blogs/staff/laboratory-versus-real-world-discrepancies-nox-emissions-eu

Was at the "petrol" station the other night and every vehicle in there (6) was filling up with diesel.

Dacia Lodgy, Trail Rat. At 70mph the 90bhp TCE in the Logan would be more than a match for the diesel in fourth but a little sluggish in fifth. I assume you didn't change down. Thanks for giving it a try though - a case of not pleasing all the people all the time.

Only part of it was lack of poke. - id expected that but the biggest complaint was the noise at 70.

It made my berlingo seem quiet.

The noise must be Logan specific, my son who is now doing conduite accompagnée in our Lodgy cmplains the engine is too quiet so he can't hear what it's doing - he did his obligatory 20h in the latest diesel Clio which is a typical modern diesel in terms of noise.

It's only in the last few years that diesel cars gave become so normalised, so it's interesting that we may now see a swing the other way.

TBH I bought a 2 litre petrol 5 years ago and have spent plenty of time cursing the 30mpg vs modern diesels. Am undecided on whether to stay petrol or go diesel when I buy another car.

It's becoming more difficult and therefore expensive to make a diesel comply with emission regulations which may well be their downfall in small cars. They'll always make sense in larger vehicles as diesels are more efficient under load - most of the fuel savings in newer cars is due to improvement in light-load fuel usage.

Other than the colour of the pump I can't imagine the change will make much difference to most people who claim to like how a diesel drives - most new turbo petrols are pretty turbo diesel-esque in their power delivery; lots of shove low down but a wheezing top end which makes them dull as anything to drive.

I thought newer diesels put out less pollution than petrols

Less CO2, much more of everything else. Particuarly NOx. However, forced by Euro6 and the American standards, the most recent ones now have selective catalytic reduction to cut down the NOx.

I'd like to see hybrid cars with bigger batteries and smaller petrol engines of about 3Obhp. Enough to maintain the motorway speed limit without electric for long journeys and maintain a good charge at lower speeds around town.

That'll be the Vauxhall Ampera or BMW i3 then.

I love diesels but only of the old school mechanical sort like the one in my Defender, newer high pressure electronic controlled ones like the TDCI in my Transit I dont love as much, DMF's, EGR, high pressure fuel systems that require 2 stroke oil to (hopefully) get decent life out of them have killed them for me.

I read about this earlier. Seems pretty implausible, there has been a huge shift towards diesel especially on the continent where the fuel is cheaper than petrol.

I would take an Ampera in a heartbeat if it wasn't a Vauxhall.

Petrol-electric is the way to go for the time being, just needs more manufacturers on board.

Just had to get rid of my diesel trafic, had nothing but bother with the dpf, ended up doing unnecessary longer runs to try and keep it clear, made a mockery of trying to get better mpg, driving a petrol now mpg is worse but I only need to drive it when I want to!

Diesels for small cars will be rarer as diesels get more expensive to make and more petrol/hybrids are coming along (although these are more complex/expensive than diesels), where the battery gives better low down torque. However for bigger cars diesels will stay around for a while since plenty are already Euro6 compliant and give better MPG/torque than petrols for big cars on M-ways.

Lexus is a bad example of phasing out diesels. They already buy in diesels from other manufacturers and hybrids is there thing. If say BWM phase out diesels that would be a better indication (they aren't).

I think the big shift will be with the compression ignition petrols that are currently in development and not far from the market. Clever stuff with variable compression ratio so they switch between a diesel and otto cycle depending on load IIRC... Petrol is a cleaner fuel to burn, so it comes down to getting the energy out of it more efficiently.

These new engines won't behave or sound anything like a naturally aspirated spark ignition engine btw.

Pretty much the only difference between a modern diesel engine and a modern gasoline one, is that one has spark plugs, and the other doesn't!

Both are now turbo'd, both can operate unthrottled, both have direct injection, Compression ratios have climbed for petrols and fallen for diesels, all have variable everything!

The only significant difference is that the diesel can run lean (unlike the conventional gasoline engine that must maintain lambda 1 operation in order for the 3 way catalyst to work). EU6 diesels with DPF's have similar tailpipe soot / particulate emissions close to that of the direct injected gasoline engine (and both are higher than for port injected gasoline engines). In real terms however, all passenger cars are hugely "cleaner" than ever before. And yet, commercial vehicle emissions (HGV, Busses etc) are laughably far behind.

Also in real terms, our air is cleaner than it has ever been. Our city centres have better air quality than they have ever had, despite traffic volumes increases hugely. Unfortunately, what has happened is that more monitors stations, with better resolution and logging capability have highlighted that under certain weather conditions, some smalls areas can have an air quality that exceeds the EU mandated value (a value many times lower than it has ever been before!).

Funnily enough, our governments find it easy to introduce legislation that only costs the end user money, rather than them................

it's interesting to read what people with obviously more technical knowledge have to say but, for the type of driving I do, I love my big lumbering oil burner. A 3.0l intercooled lump. It'll sit at 70 (ish) all day long, often not even downshifting (5 speed auto) to overtake. You always feel you have torque to spare and there's no noticeable difference in economy driving with 5 adults and luggage in the back.

The other car I drove regularly, a 1.6 petrol corrola, feels like you're kill it, it down shifts at the sight of an incline or speed increase and generally feels like it's always working hard.

RIP diesels.

Spoke to a guy a few months back who had just taken a job at Honda in Tokyo. 70% of their powertrain R&D € is already electric.

Head of BMW tech recently said if the car was invented now you wouldn't dream of using combustion engines.

It isn't just diesels that are going to be phased out!

Can't say that I'll be sad if that is the case.

I've had a diesel company car for almost four years and can't wait to see the back of it. It's awful; noisey, smelly on start up, fuel economy isn't great, rubbish power band, fuel pumps always covered in fuel etc. Even though I do 20k plus per year I'm going back to petrol...probably sone VAG with the 1.4 TFSi engine which seems pretty good. I know I won't get the claimed fuel economy but the cheaper fuel should at least partially offset it.

Big engined diesels like the six pot BM's are pretty good but arent on my company car list, so I'm stuck with nasty little four pot dervs.

I do wonder how people drive diesels when they complain about narrow power bands and noise. I find petrols have a narrow power band and are noisy - I keep having to downshift to make the car move in my Dad's Focus, and the engine drone at motorway speeds is really annoying.

Never go above 2krpm in a diesel.

Anyway - I love new engine tech discussions 🙂

Pretty much the only difference between a modern diesel engine and a modern gasoline one, is that one has spark plugs, and the other doesn't!

Plus the fuel calorific content...!

more petrol/hybrids are coming along (although these are more complex/expensive than diesels)

They aren't really. The Toyota system (also used in other manufacturers) has no clutch or gearbox, just a handful of fixed gears and two electric motors. Electric motors and inverters are very well established tech, and when you consider the complex box of gears and bearings you've done away with, it's a lot simpler. It's a brilliant concept.

The Honda system has a conventional gearbox and engine, but with a thin disc shaped motor sandwiched where the flywheel goes - very simple indeed.

I have read about more complex systems though (BMW? GM?) that have clutches and whatnot to engage electric motors.

Petrol-electric is the way to go for the time being, just needs more manufacturers on board.

In the US they have had much tighter rules on NOx for years - VW weren't allowed to sell their TDIs there from 1997 until quite recently. VW had to develop catalytic reduction to compete for the high MPG market segment. That's why Toyota have such a headstart with the Prius. We aren't overly impressed here because we have diesels, but there buying a Prius meant halving your fuel bill.

There, you can get Ford hybrids, and quite a few GM ones too I think.

Also - here, the new Passat has no petrol engine options, only a hybrid. I don't know how it works.

Must admit I thought I was lucky when we bought our oil burner as we just nipped in before DPF. Seems to have been quite a sweet spot for maintenance vs power/driveability. It's mainly done motorway & out-of-town miles, at which it is great - quite and does the far side of 50mpg unless you're over 80mph. I don't know if I'd make the same choice now, with the added maintenance costs of the latest standards.

However I'd never buy a diesel for trips round town. Too heavy, take too long to get warm, DPF cycles mandate messing around with a motorway jaunt every few weeks... small petrol still looks like the best choice so far for that use.

The big thing with electrics, is battery life. If that can be improved a bit I'd be perfectly happy with an electric flyweight to do a daily city commute.

diesels when they complain about narrow power bands and noise

No idea where that comes from - it really hasn't been my experience with our estate. Power band on ours is 2k to 3.5k (ish) - plenty wide enough. And fairly typical for anything recent.

The variable vane turbos that started appearing, what, 10 years ago? Made a huge difference to the width of that band. Plus they massively reduced the turbo lag, which made earlier diesels so godawful to drive.

The big thing with electrics, is battery life.

Hybrids manage their batteries well, the Prius battery is guaranteed for 10 years in the US and lasts much longer.

Pure electric cars are different though, they need maximum capacity which shortens life. I think that with some of them (Renault? Nissan?) you actually lease the battery even if you own the car.

Plus the fuel calorific content...!

Well traditionally it's the higher compression ratio as well as the thermal efficieny depends on the compression ratio (actually the expansion ratio).

Higher fuel calorific content probably plays a part too I'd imagine.

Another factor is that (traditional) petrol engines are less efficient at part load, because you slow it down you have to throttle the intake which causes turbulence in the intake and is therefore inefficient. And you're almost always at part load when driving.

Chap on Radio Four this morning arguing for the restriction of deisels and even holding the manufacturers responsible for their unsuitability.

I can't see petrol being the answer though with electric so close, the new Up is just about practical except the range.

[img] [/img]

ladies and gentlemen i give you the future.

I can't see petrol being the answer though with electric so close

I don't think they are close. People have become used to rapid incremental progress in technology, as we've seen in IT/electronics, but battery technology isn't really like that. It needs a big as-yet unrefined or unknown technology to make it work.

We currently just can't store that much energy in a battery, which leaves three options:

1) Make a short range city car (Leaf, Up etc)
2) Fit a generator (Ampera, BMW i3)
3) Fit a shitload of batteries anyway and charge a high price (Tesla)

Re diesel - it's been said fairly often that making diesel has a high environmental price which might offset the efficiency saving from the better MPG.

Much as I like driving diesels, when I change the Passat I'll look very carefully at a turbo petrol and see what sort of real world economy I can get.

It was the Kyoto Treaty that drove us to Diesels really with the domination of CO2 emissions. All the environmental systems introduced to Diesels has done is turn visible smog into invisible smog which is far more damaging to the local environment. The future is obvously petrol hybrids.

I had read a technical document from Mercedes a few years ago talking about dual cycle Petrol engines where the compression ratio is varied through varying the stroke of the enigne using eccentric big end bearings. Under partial load they act like a diesel, under full load they revert to spark ignition, so best of both worlds with cleaner emmissions. Not sure if this is still under development or if petrol hybrids will scupper these.

In mildly-related news, I've just got 550 miles from £53 of diesel, in an Insignia.

I'm becoming something of a Vauxhall/Opec stand-off fanboi.

I hired a 170bhp(?) diesel one for a long weekend away. I wanted to like it but found the interior layout frustrating along with the way it drove.

I could never be a fan of Vauxhalls.

On diesels in general- on foot or bike- I hate that 'taste' from diesel. A carbon soot, has a wierd smell when it hangs in the air. Horrible stuff. Then you get tight ****s blanking off bits to avoid a big bill but which puts even more nasties into the environment.

Well a current model Prius gets similar fuel economy to a similarly sized and powered diesel, but with much less CO2 and negligible NOx. I know people like to complain about batteries, but they are NiMH and as far as I understand most NiMH batteries are made from recycled sources so it's not as big of a concern as powering a whole car from Li-ion batteries.

Truck/bus engines are tested in a different manner, which is why for Eu6 they all have SCR systems already.

Obviously not tested that well judging by the cloud of shite that comes out the exhaust of all the 62-reg busses around my way. Private operator though, possibility they've taken off some of the emission controls.

Conversely, I was passed by a Cardiff bus today and I at first thought it was a large engined petrol car, it was that smooth and quiet. No noticable emissions.

There are moving at some pace, five years ago electric would never have worked for me, now as a private car supported with quick access to hire cars and train travel for work an Up would be fine, its just the cost thats put me off.

At this stage it'll be about increasing the market and that'll come in steps of increasing practicality and lower costs. Combine that with easier access to cars you don't own and better tech allowing us sit at home and [s]surf[/s] work.

Never go above 2krpm in a diesel.

Eh? So how are you going to do a safe, fast overtake then?

Oh, hang on...

I've never been a fan of Diesels. No doubt there are some very good ones like the six pots from BMW and Mercedes but the majority are clattery, smelly, hateful things with a tiny power band.

As for low down torque, modern petrol turbos have plenty. 350Nm from 2100 rpm in mine, which is maintained to 5000rpm with peak power at 6100rpm. That's a 4000rpm rev range

A modern Diesel - say a VAG 2.0 TDi will have slightly higher torque - up to 400Nm from slightly lower down say 1900rpm but by 3500rpm its getting out of breath and torque falls away, peak power will be at around 4000rpm. That's a 2000rpm rev range.

It's true that in the current generation the Diesels are still ahead on fuel economy but the gap is really starting to narrow.

Petrol electric hybrids will probably kill Diesels in the longer term

wilburt - Member
Chap on Radio Four this morning arguing for the restriction of deisels and even holding the manufacturers responsible for their unsuitability.

I could never really square the logic of this when it was rolled out in the 90s. Granted, there are nasty, invisible fumes - Benzene for one - that come out of petrol tailpipes, but the heavier particles from diesel linger in the local atmosphere far longer.

wilburt - Member
I can't see petrol being the answer though with electric so close, the new Up is just about practical except the range.

That's a 2000rpm rev range

Not in practice. Whilst peak torque isn't available until say 2krpm it's quite driveable up from about 1200. Well mine is, anyway.

And the rpm numbers aren't important, you drive by wheel torque not engine torque. And because the gears are higher you end up with the same result at the wheel.

They might 'run out of puff' by 4krpm but that doesn't make much difference when you are doing 60mph in 3rd just the same.

There are moving at some pace

No, we're at a brick wall. We just have more cars available at that same brick wall.

I don't think they are close. People have become used to rapid incremental progress in technology, as we've seen in IT/electronics, but battery technology isn't really like that. It needs a big as-yet unrefined or unknown technology to make it work.

my take on that is fairly straightforward.

option 4) make the bloody thing lighter

autocar's e-up article:

It’s a surprise, too, how little the additional weight impedes the car. At 1139kg all-in, it is far from light, but there are palpable benefits in ride quality

1139kg!

Maybe if it weighed in around 600kg... Less demanding on the battery. Meaning it can be run at part charge and extend its life. Or have less battery to start with and cost less.

If car makers think that the ecological mark is a 1 ton plus electric car, they're missing it by a country mile.

Or maybe the problem is, they can make that car, but nobody will buy it because we all want expansive comfy electric loaded luxury transport.

@digga, thats true and was covered but the conversation didn't focus solely on blame. Maybe petrol will end up being developed, not really gonna fix the problem long term.

edit: re point above WEIGHT that for me is the often overlooked be key metric even if your focus is sporting cars.

4) make the bloody thing lighter

a) how? and

b) won't make much difference anyway. Most of the work done on a long trip is against air resistance.

You want a light electric car? Go get one:

[img] [/img]

The weight isn't all about comfy gadgets (since cars without them are still heavy). It's about occupant safety.

you drive by wheel torque not engine torque. And because the gears are higher you end up with the same result at the wheel.

Yep this is true, but that's an advantage for petrol rather than Diesel. Every gear in your gear box is a reduction gear so you are always multiplying engine torque but Diesels typically run longer gears cancelling some of the wheel torque advantage.

In a relatively torquey petrol you can drive it like a Diesel if you like, changing up at 2500rpm, but you also have the option to hold on the gear longer when you need to and using the power rather than the torque.

This is where Diesels with their low engine speeds suffer

Cruising on a motorway where you don't really need to change engine speed Diesels are a clear winner. The longer gearing is an advantage as it will allow you to run a lower engine speed for a given cruising speed. For everything else though petrol all the way.

This is where Diesels with their low engine speeds suffer

Well.. depends what you are talking about. In normal driving it makes little practical difference. Sure it's not as sporty, but then not everyone wants to race everywhere.

It's certainly not an actual issue. Put your foot down, power builds to the red line in my car. It's not like the old style PD engines - that was quite different.

Having been in a turbo petrol it was nice, and like I said I'd get one if I could be sure it'd give me decent MPG in practice. But I don't accept that diesels are 'horrible' to drive.

WEIGHT that for me is the often overlooked be key metric even if your focus is sporting cars.

Its becoming more of a focus for manufacturers.

The six previous generations of Golf are heavier then the previous one. The new one is a chunk lighter ,not a massive chunk but still.

We are a long way from driving 600kg cars but manufacturers are starting to factor weight into the equation

A technician in a Lexus garage told my father that Lexus are going to stop selling diesels because it is becoming too problematic to conform to all of the emission constraints.

I read a book once that said a fella was nailed to a cross, died and then came back to life turning water into wine and stuff*

* thats actually a lie. I've never read it.

I heard that Mazda, for the current 2, redesigned the wiring to save wire, and that saved several kg. They are making the effort.

Mamufacturers have been minimising wieght for years, it's the easiest way to reduce CO2.

Why do you thing nothing has a spare wheel anymore?

Mamufacturers have been minimising wieght for years, it's the easiest way to reduce CO2.

Why do you thing nothing has a spare wheel anymore?

Because it can then be added as a cost option like my car is ?

The use of better materials is going to be the way to lose weight whilst maintaining decent safety standards, anybody seen the video of the Renault Modus cutting through a 90's Volvo on fifth gear some years back ?

a) how? and

Dunno, but (just pulling a couple of random examples because I used to own them):

Mk2 Fiesta was around 800kg, about 75% of a VW Up.
My mk1 Mondeo was only 100kg heavier.

I'm not exactly what this proves other than cars have got heavier and heavier, but it does show its possible to make a tin box with four seats weight a lot less than the Up, although I appreciate there are a bunch more safety regulations for recent cars to meet.

b) won't make much difference anyway. Most of the work done on a long trip is against air resistance.

An electric round-town car isn't going to be doing long trips. At sub 30mph average speed across towns, air resistance isn't the driving factor. It's start/stop at traffic lights/roundabouts/junctions, and that is [i]all[/i] weight.

Because it can then be added as a cost option like my car is ?

Already passed its Homolgation by then! And thus you get the cheaper RFL.

An electric round-town car isn't going to be doing long trips

Ah yes but for the electric car to be a real success it has to be capable of long trips as well, I think.

The thing is, people buy small city cars now because they are cheap. Electric cars aren't - so if you want people to pony up £25k then it needs to be a proper nice all round car.

it does show its possible to make a tin box with four seats weight a lot less than the Up

Yeah it's mostly safety driven. Have a look at the A pillars in a 20 year old car. Not only are they incredibly flimsy, but they are also really close to your head.

Seemingly DPF removal and sensor tampering is a booming business as it is much cheaper than fixing any problems.

I think DPFs and EGRs are probably going to do as good a job of phasing diesels out as anything else. They do seem to be a problem- I know as a result of the issues I've had with my EGR (which have, fortunately, so far been under warranty) I'll be buying a turbo petrol next time.

Mamufacturers have been minimising wieght for years,

Like hell they have!
Cars have been getting heavier and heavier since the 70s as people think they want more and more electrical gubbins, passive safety and other such extras bolted to them.
I assume you think power steering, big fat tyres, aircon, ABS, and umpteen electric motors weigh nothing? 🙂

DaveyBoyWonder - Member

A technician in a Lexus garage told my father that Lexus are going to stop selling diesels because it is becoming too problematic to conform to all of the emission constraints.

I read a book once that said a fella was nailed to a cross, died and then came back to life turning water into wine and stuff*

* thats actually a lie. I've never read it.

I wouldn't be surprised, Lexus were one of the last manufacturers to offer a diesel and they're not exactly diesel fans at Toyota either - they were one of the pioneers of hybrid petrols and will no doubt continue down that road.

PeterPoddy - Member

Mamufacturers have been minimising wieght for years,

Like hell they have!
Cars have been getting heavier and heavier since the 70s as people think they want more and more electrical gubbins, passive safety and other such extras bolted to them.
I assume you think power steering, big fat tyres, aircon, ABS, and umpteen electric motors weigh nothing?

It's true actually, most of the current gen cars are very slightly lighter than the previous ones, whilst being slightly bigger at the same time - but equally yes they're much bigger and heavier than they were in the 70's, 80's and in most cases the 00's.

people think they want more and more electrical gubbins, passive safety and other such extras bolted to them.

Why so derogatory?

I 'think' I want these things? No, I really do want them. I want satnav and a decent entertainment system, and I sure as hell want safefty features!

PeterPoddy - Member

Mamufacturers have been minimising wieght for years,

Like hell they have!
Cars have been getting heavier and heavier since the 70s as people think they want more and more electrical gubbins, passive safety and other such extras bolted to them.
I assume you think power steering, big fat tyres, aircon, ABS, and umpteen electric motors weigh nothing?

No I don't and I didn't say cars had gotten lighter either.

They have been minimising weight whist adding all the emmissions, safety frippery and gizmos that is required to sell a car now. If you built a car with todays manufacturing technologies to 1990's safety,emmssions, comfort and tech levels it would be a dam sight lighter than they were then.

Why so derogatory

Because I felt like it. 😛
I'm not the lazy one that won't wind a handle to open his windows..... 😆
A lot of the stuff they've been adding to cars in recent years is utterly pointless frippery that just adds expense and weight.

FWIW My diesel was the V6 2.7TDI in an A6 with an auto box, really suited the car (the newer 3.0 is supposed the be even better). I'd happily have another. I found the 2l 4cyl in my mates A3 a bit more laggy, have recently rented some Mk7 Golf TDIs which go very nicely on the motorway. I understand the large vs small engine sizes comment.

I really don't see diesels getting phased out not within 10 or even 20 years. How can they phase out diesel cars and leave all the trucks which throw out bucket loads of soot ?

Electric windows - might have a point, but it's useful to be able to open and close the other windows from the driver seat.

Aircon - very useful
Satnav/entertainment - great
Power steering - pretty useful
ABS/ESP - saves lives
Heated seats - could do without
Auto dimming lights - weighs nothing
Auto wipers - ditto
Airbags - save lives

etc etc.

I can't think of much that is heavy and useless tbh. Heated seats, maybe.

How can they phase out diesel cars and leave all the trucks which throw out bucket loads of soot ?

Because there'd still be less overall, obv. And petrol is hardly ideal for trucks.

Anyway - they should't throw out soot if they are working properly. Trucks should ahve DPF too.

In the far east esp Thailand most family cars, except lorries and trucks - diesel, are dual fuel with petrol and LPG. In other parts of Asia LPG is pretty standard with taxi.

I should have converted my Toyota Corolla here to dual fuel (24k) when I got it but now it's not worth converting after 48k on the clock. Per litre of LPG is half that of petrol so might work out if you drive frequently and added benefit of paying lower emission tax.

However, if I get a bigger car in future I will convert it to LPG immediately.

😛