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New research doesn't strike a positive note for diesels future.
'Impossible-to-cheat' emissions tests show almost all new diesels still dirty
With the first city ban of diesels last month in Germany is it only a matter of time.
I am typing this from Lancaster in a historic square with an air pollution monitor due to the location exceeding air quality standards.
The public health issue must outweigh economics. If they don't ban them can they retune existing cars to be less powerful but cleaner?
I have nothing to worry about.
My diesel powered car has a big button in the middle of the dashboard like this....
It's very comforting.
It has a leaf on it and everything.
Mine has a little tank of piss which turns dirty exhaust emissions into fairies' farts.
If the test was made realistic, development work would be performed to enable the engines to pass. It might hinder how nice they felt to drive, particularly responsiveness, but that doesn't seem like an undue cost for better air quality around towns and cities and the associated health benefits.
Of course if the government had any sense they'd ban the lot from city centres except for disabled people and make everyone who could walk or cycle.
Of course if the government had any sense they’d ban the lot from city centres except for disabled people and make everyone who could walk or cycle.
Bang on.
If you're doing enough miles to warrant a diesel you should probably look at changing your lifestyle to do fewer miles. 💡
Like percy, im not worried either as my diesel has this logo on the side....
Mine doesn't have a leaf logo 🙁
We're about to buy another diesel. Oh well.
Being made to cycle? What about when it rains!?
If you’re doing enough miles to warrant a diesel you should probably look at changing your lifestyle to do fewer miles.
Yeah, but I bought my diesel [i]before[/i] they were THE DEVIL'S WORK and I can't really afford (well, I don't want) to change it.
Would my carbon footprint be worse scrapping my diesel and replacing it unnecessarily, or just continuing to use it for the few journeys I do make? (6-7K miles per annum) Eh ? which? tell me!
My diesel doesn't have any leafs on it, it's a manky old euro-3 tractor. I deal with the inner city pollution issue by not driving it in any inner cities, because they're bloody horrible to drive in.
I've got vague plans to replace it with a ridiculous petrol guzzler instead though so I can do 20mpg and be all eco
I have a big diesel 4x4 but don't worry as I have an eco button. When I press it a green eco sign comes up on my dashboard and fuel economy changes from 32.7mpg to about 32.7mpg. The polar bears must be pleased.
Where can i get a leaf sticker?
Hmm, best make it kittens and leaves to be safe, yes, that'll make it all OK.
When I press it
Oh, I've never pressed it.
My self-image prevents it.
Just bought a new van. It's diesel. Give me any other option.....
I’ll be losing the diesel in my household soon. Replaced with a petrol hybrid.
Hopefully this will will offset the 18mpg my other car gets around town. 😁
<span style="display: inline !important; float: none; background-color: transparent; color: #222222; font-family: 'Open Sans'; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 22.4px; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;">If you’re doing enough miles to warrant a diesel you should probably look at changing your lifestyle to do fewer miles.</span>
Thanks - i'll get a new job, just like that 🙂
It's ok, mine has an Eco button too!
Give me any other option…..
https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/e-nv200.html
We have a 10 year old, 3.5 tonne motorhome with a 2.8 diesel engine - I'm not quite sure what's going to happen with that over the next 5 years but I suspect we'll be getting a trailer for the dog and using bikes to get into towns before much longer.
I also got rid of a 530D bmw recently for a 118i petrol. I get 3mpg better on a long journey, about the same round town. I realise there's stuff diesels emit that petrol engines don't but I'm surprised that there's no effective difference in real world mpg between the two cars.
Yeah, but I bought my diesel <em class="bbcode-em">before they were THE DEVIL’S WORK and I can’t really afford (well, I don’t want) to change it.
Diesels have always been the devil's work 😉
Eh? which? tell me!
Out of interest, was that the mileage you were doing when you got the car?
I only ask as that is way under the threshold for making a diesel financially viable over a petrol, long term.
Thanks – I'll get a new job, just like that
It's what I did, it's not for everyone. 🙂
waswaswas,you swapped a large,fast car, but with a diesel engine, for a small, slow one, with a petrol engine and you're surprised there's not much difference in fuel economy? (which actually demonstrates how good the diesel engines actually are!
(the elephant in the room is that what comes out the tail pipe of your car is more to do with how you drive it than what that car has for an engine. Most people could cut their tailpipe emissions, and particularly their NOx emissions by driving better (ie more smoothly)
Would my carbon footprint be worse scrapping my diesel and replacing it unnecessarily, or just continuing to use it for the few journeys I do make? (6-7K miles per annum) Eh ? which? tell me!
Your car already has low carbon emissions. This is about NOx emissions. Do keep up.
Out of interest, was that the mileage you were doing when you got the car?
I only ask as that is way under the threshold for making a diesel financially viable over a petrol, long term
I bought a diesel when only planning to do about 7k miles a year. The main reason for this was not the prices (many cars would have been cheaper) but that I wanted to be able to tow 3 tons across a field in winter. I think I could have bought a petrol 5l supercharged rangerover, but considered this a little wasteful as well as the fact I couldn't afford the circa £120k to buy one. So, sometimes the option simply isn't there to make a choice like that. This has now got quite old so I'll be buying another one the same. Guess what? No petrol, electrical or hybrid options that I'm aware of. Time for another diesel!
Waswas he said van .
Not people carrier with the seats removed.
Not many options at real sized vans yet
waswaswas,you swapped a large,fast car, but with a diesel engine, for a small, slow one, with a petrol engine and you’re surprised there’s not much difference in fuel economy? (which actually demonstrates how good the diesel engines actually are!
I agree, I think the argument against diesels is largely down to particulates and NOx which all the bolt on stuff in the world is only going to mitigate. A petrol engine that is using the same amount of fuel is probably a better bet - certainly for the local environment (despite maybe slightly higher CO2).
I only ask as that is way under the threshold for making a diesel financially viable over a petrol, long term.
Well that rather depends on the car and what was around at the time it was bought.
My car is a diesel, because no petrol models are offered in the UK and we hadn't found anything else that ticked our various boxes. My wife's car is a diesel (a naughty, test defeating one) because only a very small number of cars met the requirements we had on that car and the one that suited us most offered a single token petrol model that didn't really look like it was going to be useful. We didn't really choose diesel for either car, it is just what was on offer.
On other cars, there are that many diesels around that second hand prices often favour buying diesel.
We both have eco buttons, so nothing to worry about.
Makes no difference to me, my crusty old camper hasn't been allowed inside the M25 for years😕
Yeah tbh if they ban them from cities that wouldn't be a bad thing. Ban all cars/vans during the day says I
I also got rid of a 530D bmw recently for a 118i petrol. I get 3mpg better on a long journey, about the same round town. I realise there’s stuff diesels emit that petrol engines don’t but I’m surprised that there’s no effective difference in real world mpg between the two cars.
Surely there's a massive difference in terms of performance between those 2 cars? You're comparing apples and oranges. I bet there's a significant drop if you were to buy a 530i.
I would like to know, given that vehicle tax is based on emissions, and the whole dieselgate scandal has been going on 3 years now, why I'm still being taxed considerably more for my petrol vehicle, than most diesel vehicles?
It's not cars you want to ban from cities, its the cities you want to ban. Honestly, banning diesels, better public transport, congestion charges - it's all faster horses, 10 years from now we'll all wonder why we worked so hard to maintain the myth we all need to be in the same place at the same time to work.
In a year or two we'll all come to terms with the fact that the new Adblue diesels aren't that bad, and we'll no doubt discover that the smaller, turbo'd petrol engines aren't as good as we thought they were.
Personally I'm hoping to swap my 170bhp dirty diesel (it's one of the dodgy VW ones) for a 300bhp super duper clean petrol one, that'll sort it!
I got rid of my “dirty diesel” last year and replaced it with a petrol hybrid.
I look down on all you black sooted wildlife killers with distain.
*tuts
*sniffs clean fresh air
*jumps in the sea
tinybits: That's why I asked. 🙂
In a year or two we’ll all come to terms with the fact that the new Adblue diesels aren’t that bad
Only compared to older diesels. In absolute terms they're still rubbish.
I needed a large estate. My choice was diesel, bigger diesel or a super sports.petrol version. That is the core of the problem.
Confused I am.
Audi A2 Euro 4 Tdi. Does a genuine 60+ mpg. How can this be filthier than a Euro 5 or 6 car doing less mpg and burning more filthy deisel to start with?
Out of interest, was that the mileage you were doing when you got the car?
About 10K. But as I'm a cycle to work kind of bloke, mostly it was long journeys (though my old job was just 15 miles of mway when I did drive)
Audi A2 Euro 4 Tdi. Does a genuine 60+ mpg. How can this be filthier than a Euro 5 or 6 car doing less mpg and burning more filthy deisel to start with?
Because a Euro 6 car has superior emissions abatement technology.
Because a Euro 6 car has superior emissions abatement technology.
....and a button, with a picture of a leaf on it.
When we went through this with Petrol, it never died. In fact here it is making a resurgence.
I don't have a leaf button. I do have a statement, in capitals, to remind me how nice my car is for the bunnies. It says 'ECO'.
When we went through this with Petrol, it never died. In fact here it is making a resurgence.
As long as the desire for personal transportation exists it never will die.
What about an Alfa?
Surely there'd be a huge market for a retrofit diesel makerbeterer. Why has nobody come up with it yet??
I got rid of my “dirty diesel” last year and replaced it with a petrol hybrid.I look down on all you black sooted wildlife killers with distain.
You still own a car though. Brake dust particulate creating miscreant.
I needed a large estate. My choice was diesel, bigger diesel or a super sports.petrol version. That is the core of the problem.
+1 Exactly the same thing happened to my parents. The big issue is that a couple of years ago scientific consensus was that diesel was cleaner than petrol. As a result almost all (American excluded) manufacturers, at the behest of european governments, removed petrol engines from their ranges aside from the most powerful / ridiculous options. Now diesel is evil again but the manufacturers don't have the alternatives available!
I was at an event a couple of weeks ago where a local Mitsubishi dealership were a sponsor. They had a new 4x4 there (can't remember the model now) with the tagline, 'the new petrol suv'. I was quite surprised as I couldn't have imagined any manufacturer actively pushing the petrol angle on that type of vehicle 12 months ago.
The big issue is that a couple of years ago scientific consensus was that diesel was cleaner than petrol.
It really wasn't. The problem was (and still is) that the government wasn't listening.
As long as the desire for personal transportation exists it never will die
Star Trek transporters are what we need. Have your atoms disassembled and then let a computer put them back together again at your destination.
Actually hybrids wear their pads far less too.
+1 Exactly the same thing happened to my parents. The big issue is that a couple of years ago scientific consensus was that diesel was cleaner than petrol.
No absolutely not - as someone who was doing an Environmental Science degree at the time it most certainly wasn't the scientific consensus - it was the political consensus to bail out the european car industry.
I have nothing to worry about.
My diesel powered car has a big button in the middle of the dashboard like this….
You misunderstand that button. Eco is Greek for home or house. Press that button and the car will simply take you home.
You still own a car though. Brake dust particulate creating miscreant.
Barely use the brakes, take my foot off the go-pedal and the regen that charges the battery slows the car down nicely ya.
I do love it, s’peshly cos I look down on folk as I whaft on by.
👻👻👾
I
The big issue is that a couple of years ago scientific consensus was that diesel was cleaner than petrol. As a result almost all (American excluded) manufacturers, at the behest of european governments, removed petrol engines from their ranges aside from the most powerful / ridiculous options. Now diesel is evil again but the manufacturers don’t have the alternatives available!
There are two (somewhat) unrelated problems - greenhouse gases, and poisoning. Diesel is better from the former point of view but worse from the latter - this was always the scientific consensus, but greenhouse gases were in the public eye at the time (a bit like the plastic in our seas issue right now). The reason motorists jumped on diesels in such a big way was largely because of fuel consumption. It coincided with technology sorting out a lot of the shortcomings of diesels (dmfs to smooth out the vibration, turbos to give them power, and dpfs to cut down the black smoke). Now that motorists have developed a habit for big heavy powerful cars that give previously unimaginable mileage they are not going to give that up in a hurry. There are and have always been petrol alternatives but they are thirsty by diesel standards. Road tax is a minor factor compared to fuel cost, so the government couldn't and didn't need to influence buyers to buy diesel.
The one thing that did mitigate against diesel purchase was the increasing number of problems people were having with all the band-aid devices that diesels had to be equipped with to solve their traditional diesel shortcomings. Ironically the diesel car engine went from being the "go on forever" option, to the one with all the problems, thanks to those egr valves and clogged up dpfs.
Those suggesting banning vehicles and only allowing cycling or walking in cities, how would you suggest I move around bulky heavy test equipment and the occasional Gas cylinder that can weigh between 5 and 400 kilos. (Fire suppression stuff so fairly important).
Using London as an example, most traffic is trade, deliveries, taxis and busses.
So if I get this, its Euro 6, right?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-mini-cannabis-leaf-vinyl-sticker-skunk-weed-pot-hash-ganja-car-window-DIY/222831800019?epid=15014684126&hash=item33e1cf6ed3:g:c3kAAOSwBmlafhgD
"Those suggesting banning vehicles and only allowing cycling or walking in cities, how would you suggest I move around bulky heavy test equipment and the occasional Gas cylinder that can weigh between 5 and 400 kilos. (Fire suppression stuff so fairly important)."
Same way they do in other car free cities.
You bring them in at night
So the pollution’s at night instead then?
And when you being stuff in at night people want "night" wages and costs go up and people whine.!
LPG - diesel hybrids are an option not many people seem to consider. You inject a mix of the fuels (lpg is the main ingredient, diesel is injected at tickover levels just to initiate compression ignition) and you end up with diesel economy with very low particulate emissions as the LPG atomises much better than diesel.
Downside is cost, it would be prohibitive in a car but works brilliantly in bigger vans/trucks.
I've got a huge diesel car. It doesn't have a button with a leaf on it but you could probably park a Nissan Leaf in the boot. Do I win a cookie?
This mileage malarkey for Diesels ie 20k + is only really if your buying new. If you only drive 5 k a year but each journey is 50+ miles it’s still cheaper to buy a used diesel especially now the prices have dropped through the floor. It’s the type of journey you do not just the distance. I’ve just bought a Seat Leon 2.0 FR diesel. It’s brilliant for driving to work visiting friends and family and trips away. For all other shorter journeys I ride, take the train, park and ride or walk. It also has an eco setting but that is offset by the sport mode button!
Also I have to physically be there to do my job, in today’s age who that works in an office actually physically needs to be there?? I’m not talking contractually or because it’s looks good.
Great news for me, will drive the price of diesels down as well as a flooding of second hand ones at bargain prices. Will it affect the price at the pump also?
So hybrid vans. Quick google shows a lot of glowing newspaper articles/reprinted sales brochures. About 16-27 grand for the two models currently available and the upcoming Transit PHEV starting around 25k in the UK.
Anyone bought one other than corporate fleets, Harrods etc?
Maybe my next van will be a Hybrid, it’s old being a 16 plate on roughly 70kmiles but I don’t buy the Vans, they tend to be whatever the best deal is at the time. I guess price/tax will be the decider.
In the meantime I’ll put a blue or green sticker on it to do my bit. All I can do is try to keep the economy in the late 30’s and turn it off whenever possible.
Got a 5200 part chop at a main dealer on a 12 plate transit yesterday. Prices haven't dropped that much in the van world. I looked at the petrol transit but it is still a good way off actually being available.
10 years from now we’ll all wonder why we worked so hard to maintain the myth we all need to be in the same place at the same time to work.
Not everyone works in an office, those of us that work in a place that makes an actual physical product cant just sit on our rings at home
About 25-30k for a proper sized van, that's a big layout for a sole trader!
Alright for corporate businesses as usual, oh and a nice bit of coin for the manufactures to boot. No wonder they have all got great big smiles on their faces, patting each other on the back, well done boys another nice little earner bagged.
Not everyone works in an office
Doesn't change the fact that many of us do.
My scruffy Mondeo diesel doesn't have a fancy leaf or Eco sticker either but It's just passed it's MOT & emissions were well within It's limits. It's also got '53.3mpg' showing as average fuel consumption (15 miles each way to work)
But I'm still concerned so I might get a hybrid.
However, I have a caravan & enjoy travelling up to the West coast of Scotland with it. Now what?
(don't even mention cycling to work, I'm 61 & my only viable route is on busy, twisty A & B roads, with no changing facilities at work)
Plus, the local authority I drive for have 16 minibuses (at one depot out of six) & all are diesels, each doing around 19-22mpg & mostly around towns (& only doing an average of 30 miles per day). I should really ask why in this day & age, can't local authorities do more to reduce the use of diesel engined vehicles. Knowing management I'd be shot down in flames for daring to be so.....advisory?
^There are no viable alternatives that's why. ^
My 51-plate Octavia is really going to need a replacement in the next year or so, it’s a diesel, and I had considered petrol, because it sat in front of my house most of the week, only being used at weekends.
However, my circumstances have changed in the last couple of weeks, and I now have to drive to work for the first time in around twelve years, doing thirty miles a day, mostly along the A350, with traffic generally flowing pretty well, so I’m reconsidering my choices and will almost certainly go for diesel again. I do have access to a variety of cars through work, which is a company that does remedial and repair work to ex-Motability cars which then go to auction or are bought direct by dealers, so I might be able to score a nice deal on a two or three year old diesel crossover.
hybrid electric cargo bicycle for the last few miles or delivered in advance in electric van.
Cities need to change.
I'm already nudged. I do long trips to the cities in a big diesel and the last mile by electric bicycle. No parking costs. No searching for parking.
Can’t remember the last time I was in a petrol taxi.
Also I have to physically be there to do my job, in today’s age who that works in an office actually physically needs to be there?? I’m not talking contractually or because it’s looks good.
Agree 100%. Imagine how many cars would be taken off the roads by giving companies meaningful incentives (or legislating) to allow people to work from home? Obviously not everyone works in an office, or could practically work from home - but huge numbers do. It would make a huge dent in pollution and congestion - as well as allowing people to move to other parts of the UK and take advantage of cheaper house prices and better quality of life that would afford.
I've just switched to working from home everyday, and it's fantastic. In a previous job I used to commute over an hr each way (M3/M25/M4) and am thoroughly enjoying having that 2hrs+ a day OF MY OWN TIME back - that's huge. Also not paying for a tank of fuel a week, tyres, depreciation etc is significant.
My previous employer had no good reason for not letting people work from home (I do the same job now, just for a different company), they just had a weird "we prefer people to be in the office" mentality.
"The big issue is that a couple of years ago scientific consensus was that diesel was cleaner than petrol." (Seems easier to do quotation marks than the provided function...😉)
The actual issue is that up until recently, Saudi Arabia didn't have the capability to refine and supply the global requirement and..... price, of diesel oil all on it's own. It does now.
Theres no doubting the noxious gases and output from burning diesel oil, it's just that they didn't want to peddle that line as its a relatively cheap fossil fuel and the people love fossil fuels and more to the point, a few people make a lot of money out of fossil fuels. We just need to be careful who those people are.
The programme is over there people, spit spot and get with it.
Also seems to be the case now that Diesel engines just don’t last very long.
Gone are the days if 100k it’s just run in
100k now on a Euro6 engine and your worrying about DPF putting fuel into the oil, egr valves clogging and turbos about to die
^ I think the diesel issues of dpf/egr/turbo is down to so many having been sold for short journeys and used inappropriately.
Can’t remember being a petrol taxi
In London at least, once you pass 6pm every 2nd car is a Prius taxi.
noticing it in my town too, haven’t been in a diesel taxi for a long time now.
I needed a large estate. My choice was diesel, bigger diesel or a super sports.petrol version. That is the core of the problem.
Skoda Superb comes with a 1.4 tsi petrol option?