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Well it wasn't that painful really and almost enjoyable.
Diesel cons
- Massive dead spot of power under about 2k revs - pulling away from a junction in 2nd is dangerous (I have stalled once and almost come to a stop on a couple of occasions)
- It takes a while for the power to come in if under 3k revs
- I am finding myself having to make more gear changes in urban traffic
- I have already become obsessed with fuel economy, watching the dial constantly
Diesel pros
- When cruising it is quite effortless and (dare I say it) smooth
- Power comes in nicely
- It is significantly more economical
- It has already made me drive in a more relaxed manner - I don't feel the need to 'push' other road users along
Would I get another?
Probably, but I still want a silly fast petrol weekend toy.
Just thought I would share my thoughts 🙂
Having only based my experience on two diesels, both of which I stalled a few times pulling away. If diesels have more torque at lower revs, why do they seem to stall easier? Or is it just entirely me being a numpty?
...but you had an audi tt... ...does not compute...
its impossible to stall a diesel! pulling out onto a roundabout once i ended up pulling silly confused faces and worrying i had summink wrong with my car, turns out i pulled off in 4th gear.
I don't feel the need to 'push' other road users along
Do what now?
because they have a DMF, and the DMF will go into resonance a couple of hundred rpm's below tickover and smash itself to bits. The calibration or strategy cuts the fuel to stop this happening if you are a bit ham fisted on launch and let the revs drop too much. Also modern turbo diesels have huge amounts of torque (and therefore a heavy clamp load), so in order to try and retain a sensible pedal travel/load compromise some manufacturers end up with quite a heavy pedal load. The gradient of the load v. travel on the pedal release part of the curve can be very steep, and this makes modulating the clutch quite difficult.
Interesting comparisons.
Of course it depends what petrol and what diesel you were driving before to compare!
Some diesels used to have terrible turbo lag and peaky delivery (Golf 150bhp PD-tdi I had as a company car) whilst some new ones have almost no lag (twin turbos etc... 1400-1600rpm max torque).
We have a diesel (relaxing) and petrol (smooth but needs revs and great sound at 7500rpm). Very different cars but both enjoyable to drive in their own ways.
'impossible to stall a diesel'
O
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...but you had an audi tt... ...does not compute...
And I also drove my wife's Mazda 3 lots too (probably more than the TT, hence getting the DadCar(TM))
its impossible to stall a diesel!
No it isn't! I have once and so has my wife.
No doubt I will get used to it.
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Of course it depends what petrol and what diesel you were driving before to compare!
Petrol - most recently a 2.0TFSi TT and a Mazda 3 Sport (which we still have).
Diesel - Audi A6 2.0TDi 174bhp version
Diesel - Audi A6 2.0TDi 174bhp version
ahhh you want to trade that in for something nice, something decent like a skoda 1.9 sdi.... have i mentioned its impossible to stall?
massive dead spot of power under about 2k revs
It takes a while for the power to come in if under 3k revs
that doesn't sound right for a diesel at all - what is it?
How you fining the A6 MF? (I was looking at the time you bought yours, but ended up with an SMax as I couldnt fit the 3 kids accross the back seats with the youngest in his next size up car seat;-()
ahhh you want to trade that in for something nice, something decent like a skoda 1.9 sdi.... have i mentioned its impossible to stall?
I looked at the Skoda Octavia but, insanely, the Audi was cheaper on a business lease (about £10 a month less)
I'm going through a similar thing, went from a 2.5T petrol to 2.2 diesel. So far so good, finding it more relaxing. The economy on the diesel was poor to start with, but it's getting better an better.
Hmm.. shouldn't really be a dead spot... there are a few things going on here:
1) Turbo spool speed. If the engine revs are low enough the turbo won't turn. On my car this is about 1.2krpm. Below about 1.5k it takes a little longer to spool up than it does at high speeds. If you are below the spool speed the turbo isn't turning in a meaningful way so you've got basically a NA diesel (ie a slow one) until you pass this engine speed.
2) Turbo lag, which is not quite the same thing. Under light throttle at middling speeds the turbo's not turning much, but when you boot it it takes a short time for the turbo to speed up as you accelerate - this is what's much reduced in modern turbo cars compared to the 80s (both petrol and diesel).
So when driving, you need to be aware of the turbo, what it's doing and how to get it to work for you. I must say that your reports of low power below 2krpm seem very strange, that's not the case with cars I've driven at all. You may be experiencing some form of lag which is going away in the time it takes to get to 2krpm.
If you don't want to stall when pulling away quickly, get the revs up above about 1.3 or 1.4, you should be fine.
+1 for relaxing driving though. It's possible to enjoy a drive through being relaxed and happy, rather than going fast. For this reason I like driving diesels and also big V8s but they are hardly practical 🙂
Modern diesels are fantastic, I would nearly always have one over a petrol. Actually even when I want something a bit fast; I've not put a deposit on a new M5 as I'm eagerly awaiting more news on this triple turbo V8 diesel BMW are supposed to be doing.
[quote=TurnerGuy]that doesn't sound right for a diesel at all
Agreed, my PD140 Leon used to pull strongly from 1000rpm steadily to about 3500rpm. Granted it's a lot lighter car, but I would still expect similar characteristics...
His engine is quite different from a PD though frogstomp.
Prefer diesels myself, always have. But you can stall them.
I've got a petrol car.
It's the most pathetic, gutless, joyless, POS I've ever driven.
Not the engines fault, the sooner cars start being made from composites the better! It's just heavy!
I like my midget though 🙂
Interesting to see your views on the pro's of a diesel. I think it depends on the cars in question as all of your pro's seem to be covered by my current petrol car.
It is very smooth and cruises effortlessly. I can put it in 6th gear from as low as 30mph and it does not struggle.
It's economical compared to my previous petrol cars - averaged 38mpg on a round trip from South Oxfordshire to Cambridge (on the motorways) which I am more than happy with.
And because of the torque and power of the engine I find it is the most relaxing car I've driven.
But it is a 3 litre straight 6 in a 1 series which are deeply unfashionable these days 😀
Only negative is that it drinks fuel when in queues and urban areas.
Okay I didn't explain myself very well... (well I did in the OP actually 😉 )
Massive dead spot of power under about 2k revs - pulling away from a junction in 2nd is dangerous (I have stalled once and almost come to a stop on a couple of occasions)
It is fine at 1k revs if pulling away in first, it is when I am cruising up to a junction/roundabout or whatever and go into second, expecting it to pull away I have found the problem. It doesn't seem instinctive to drop into first when moving (something I was taught as a learner). I am sure I will adjust my driving style though.
Yeah that's being below the spool speed. I must say it took me about a week to fully adjust to my first diesel.
Ginger one - 38mpg from a 1 series is shocking - I get 52-54mpg on long motorway trips in my Passat, and it's auto.
It doesn't seem instinctive to drop into first when moving (something I was taught as a learner). I am sure I will adjust my driving style though.
I recently switched to a diesel and I'm having the same problem.
So wait.. you are in second, you trundle up to a junction slowly, see a gap and floor it - then there's a pause? That right?
@TheGingerOne - 130i? Are they as much fun as people say? I love the idea of a big engine in a small car
Molgrips, compared to a Diesel then it is true that it is not considered great these days, but for a relatively 'simple' 3 litre petrol engine, ie. no turbo or supercharger etc then it is pretty good. It is as economical as a BMW 116 petrol, but way better to drive with far greater performance. It is also far better than the likes of comparable cars such as the Golf R32 or Focus ST which average about 25mpg compared to my average of just over 33.
Luckily I only do about 6k a year so am not so concerned with running costs.
As I say, it matches many of the OP's benefits when compared to other similar cars, which I think is quite interesting and it is more than good enough to be used as a weekend toy as well (imho) which negates the need to run 2 cars with the extra cost of servicing, insurance, consumables etc.
edit: RandomJeremy, yes it is. Got a 3dr M Sport and it is fantastic Q car when de-badged. I can drive it normally keeping up with traffic without going over 2000rpm, but there is massive power available upto the redline near 8000rpm. Amazingly civilised, a real wolf in sheeps clothing in my opinion. A number of previous M3 owners have downsized to them and many prefer them as they are so cheap to run (in comparison and for the performance) and yet very close in performance terms on the track - so I am lead to believe)
massive dead spot of power under about 2k revs
It takes a while for the power to come in if under 3k revs
that doesn't sound right for a diesel at all - what is it?
Sounds bang on to me.
You just can't beat the response of a non-turbo engine, which to all intents and purposes means petrol. I've driven god-knows how many deisels and it's the turbo that spoils 'em. Sat outside right now (Again...) is my MiLs VW Eos, 140bhp diesel. I fekking HATE the thing. It's the laggiest, least flexible engine I've ever driven. Fast? Oh yeah, it goes like the clappers, but in a pause,rush...pause,rush...pause,rush...pause,rush... manner. And like a lot of powerful diesels it's a pain in the ass to trickle along on zero throttle in traffic, and requires a sixth sense to get off the line in a fast, clean manner, bog down or mad wheelspin is the choice (Well, mad bouncing around as the traction control cuts in at any rate!) It's a pig in town. (And not that economical either) just like our DTi Vectra was.
The other weekend I test drove a Fiat Bravo 150bhp diesel, which was better. Smoother pick up and less lag (Waaaay better specced, more comfortable and a lovely interior too) but still bugger all power off tickover.
I'm not saying I'd never buy another diesel, our next car may well be one, but I'll never LIKE them. It seems the new ones are all like 2-strokes these days.
That said, I've been spoilt something rotten recently by a Ducati V-twin, which wipes the floor with EVERY enngine I've ever even been close to. I've never felt response & smoothness like it......
It is the relaxing bit I don't like about diesels - I drive petrol as the car feels more 'alive' and keeps me more attentive - so I can avoid an accident 🙂
My old Punto diesel (NA) had loads of torque at low revs, as did the Alfa 156 diesels I tried. To me that was the big benefit of diesel.
If only throttle response was the only criteria for a good engine eh PP?
[quote="molgrips"]His engine is quite different from a PD though frogstomp.
Ah, I assumed a PD170.. haven't driven the CR version to compare..
But it's true that different diesel engines can vary wildly in how they drive - my 325D (*ducks*) feels much more like a petrol engine and I have had to adapt my driving style considerably (over the punchy Leon) to get the best out of it.
If only throttle response was the only criteria for a good engine
it is a pretty big one - I am with PP on hating turbo lag. My idea of hell on earth would be a VW Passat diesel with turbo lag...
If I am at 2krpm there's no lag at all on my Passat. So it's a case of using the gearbox. If you want to rag it it's very easy to keep the turbo going. Like any car you have to know how to drive it to get the results you want. The same is true of petrols, but you learned that when you learned to drive.
If I am at 2krpm there's no lag at all on my Passat.
so there is lag under 2k? Ugh!
If only throttle response was the only criteria for a good engine eh PP?
Well, yeah, that would be great.
Simplicity is good too. Stuff like manual gearboxes, normal clutches, and less moving parts (Yes Mr Turbo, I'm looking at you!)
Tell me about the running costs of your Passat again, Mol...... I need a giggle! 8)
But back to throttle response, all anyone ever does these days is blast down a motorway or sit in traffic, so they don't need it.... Toys like aircon, TCS, silly gearboxes and iPod prep get more press than a car that's nice to drive briskly when the mood takes you.... 🙂
I went from a 1999 2.0 Saab 93 turbo to a 2005 1.9TiD Saab 93.
My thoughts:
The old one was faster.
If I am at 2krpm there's no lag at all on my Passat. So it's a case of using the gearbox.
yeah, but you've got a silly gearbox that masks the lag problem! Come and drive this bloody Eos!
If I'm at 800rpm in my Focus, it'll pull decently and smoothly in 5th. Try that. That's flexibilty. Turbos RUIN it!
Running costs? £175 tax is a bit steep, cos it's auto mostly; servicing is £200 or so. Umm.. what else?
PP where exactly do you rag your car anyway? Everywhere I drove round there was either a 40mph speed limit or choked with traffic. Or both.
Toys like aircon, TCS, silly gearboxes and iPod prep get more press than a car that's nice to drive briskly when the mood takes you
You know, some people have different criteria to others...
And remember I live in Wales where they have proper empty mountain roads.
If I'm at 800rpm in my Focus, it'll pull decently and smoothly in 5th
I have tried it, it works fine, and I'll bet it's much quicker than your Focus at that speed too. However you should not be driving at those engine speeds cos the oil pressure is too low.
yeah, but you've got a silly gearbox that masks the lag problem!
The gearbox has its own lag. I was talking about having it in manual mode.
My idea of hell on earth would be a VW Passat diesel with turbo lag...
sorry, I was wrong, it should have been:
My idea of hell on earth would be an automatic VW Passat diesel with turbo lag...
Running costs? £175 tax is a bit steep, cos it's auto mostly; servicing is £200 or so. Umm.. what else?
*Cough* gearboxoilchange *cough* 😉
Bet your insurance is higher than mine too.... Bigger engine, bound to be!
PP where exactly do you rag your car anyway?
Well, to be fair not often. But driving back from Brizzle like I'm doing now, there's a lovely set of roundabouts and twisty roads between the M4 and Hartley Witney which are ripe for a good thrash. Purely in the interests of keeping the engine loose, you understand? 😉
I have tried it, it works fine,
Yeah. Right. Flat spot CIIIITTTTYYYYYYY!!!!!
and I'll bet it's much quicker than your Focus at that speed too.
It BLOODY SHOULD BE!
You confuse speed and power with 'better'
However you should not be driving at those engine speeds cos the oil pressure is too low.
Well in that case why do they let it tick over so low? Why isn't tickover 1800rpm? Don't talk bollocks. What should I do then? pull off at 2000rpm every 15 yards in traffic, wasting fuel? or let it trickle along at tickover in 1st/2nd?
*Cough* gearboxoilchange *cough*
Oh yeah, forgot. Nothing to do with it being a diesel though. Had I known about that I might not have got the auto. As for insurance, it's about the same as the Prius, £30-40/mo ish.
And they let it idle at 800 because it's under no load - the clue is in the name 'idle'.
Yeah. Right.
I may be the kind of weirdo who likes diesels but telling lies on internet forums isn't my thing.
You are making a mountain out of a molehill imo.
My idea of hell on earth would be an automatic VW Passat diesel with turbo lag.
What a nutcase.
A remap will help out the first two cons. Made my 2.0tdi a lot better Although at high speeds (over 70)there is a lot of turbo lag, there isn't any in lower gears and the turbo comes in lower down the revs.
As for insurance, it's about the same as the Prius, £30-40/mo ish.
HOW MUCH???
That's at least £110 more than ours, for 2 named drivers.
Also - Tyres. Big diesels eat tyres
How much and how long do they last?
Wild guess, 235/45/17s which are £166+ each a corner at Kwik Fit, and a front pair will do 20,000 miles at a push?
The old mechnical TD's (Citroen / Peugoet) were very hard to stall but I've driven plenty of VAG diesels to say that they are plenty easy enough to stall.
I've never driven a dual clutch diesel but they do sound a bit of a pain around town. I personally like diesel+auto as a combo - but with a big old diesel engine!
My idea of hell on earth would be an automatic VW Passat diesel with turbo lag.What a nutcase.
but why?
I hate autos and I hate turbo lag and I don't like the 'rolling along' nature of driving a diesel, even the alfa ones.
I also don't like the 'we're doing you a favour looking at your car/letting you have a test drive' attitude of most vw garages I have been to.
Plus the alfa garage I used to go had several franchises and the cars they had most problems with at the time were passats.
Lastly, as I have mentioned before, there is a strong correlation between old gits/middle lane hoggers and passat drivers.
I may be the kind of weirdo who likes diesels but telling lies on internet forums isn't my thing.
I might go and video the Eos's speedo for you attempting the same thing....
You are making a mountain out of a molehill imo.
Stop arguing then. 🙂
Diesels are shit and belong in tractors, busses and dustbin lorries. Thems the facts and you know it...... 😛
-----------------------
Oh yeah. Another running cost. What's your deppreciation like, pray tell?
I worked out when we bought the Focus (at 3 years old) that although a comparable VW Golf lost less as a percentage over a given amount of time, because the purchase price was so much higher in the first place it actually lost about £400 (IIRC) more over the same period....
I hate autos
Oddly, I love autos. 🙂
Hell on earth though? Seriously?
I prefer diesels to small petrols, but I'm prepared to look on the advantages of either and any type of car. I just don't like hyperbolic rhetoric 🙂
As for the old people middle lane thing - who gives a crap? You know Passats don't CAUSE middle lane hogging, so why even bring it up?
EDIT Oh I know why... trolling.. silly me.
What's your deppreciation like, pray tell?
I've no idea really. I bought it for 10 grand two years ago, and I don't intend to sell it any time soon. As far as I'm concerned I've spent ten grand, and I have a car 🙂
I looked at Golfs and Focuses at the time - I didn't really like the Focus, almost went for a Jetta but the Passat was more car for less - the above image problems seem to make them much better bargains 🙂
Also - Tyres. Big diesels eat tyres
My Land Rover weighs 2.7 tonnes, and has a 240+hp 2.7 litre turbodiesel engine. Big in just about every sense.
The current tyres are on about 25k at present and still have 4-5mm of tread.
but middle lane hoggers appear to be attracted to passats for some reason.
They only eat tyres if you boot it around. A car going from 0-60 in 9 seconds puts the same force through the tyres regardless of fuel. Don't get engine torque spread confused with wheel torque 🙂
Re middle lane - I don't hog the middle lane, if that's what you're insinuating?
I prefer diesels to small petrols,
I actually prefer sodding great big petrol engines. But I'm not a millionaire, so I haven't got one, sadly.
When we bough the Focus (Search criteria - NOT silver/grey and NOT French, seriously) I did the sums as best as I could and at the time and the running costs were the same as the diesel Vectra we had before it. Things ahve changed a bit since (Fuel price and the milage I'm doing for work) but I still don't think it's costing significantly more tha said Vectra. Maybe £100 or so more a year. I've not done the sums exactly.
That said, I'm getting 45p/mile through work, so I don't care really 🙂
The only thing I'm regretting is not holding out for a Ghia model with cruise control. I'm gettng a bad knee from holding the throttle still for so long, so I'm getting cruise fitted in a couple of weeks. It's just not economical to change the car right now.
I also think a diesel focus would be more efficient than a vectra, surely?
Worst thing about Fords for me is that they don't like fitting cruise control.
Oddly, I love autos
it the slipping clutch sound I hate - a selespeed type box is better as it double declutches all the time, but then you have to put up with those stupid paddles which mean you have to use the main gearshift anyway when negotiating things like roundabouts.
Went from a civic type-R to a seat Leon 140tdi. To say that they are at different ends of the rev range is an understatement. Lasted a week before it was in for a remap. Now produces 180bhp and is very touquey. Cruise at 70 on the motorway, put your foot down and it just, well you know, goes.
Diesel cons
- Massive dead spot of power under about 2k revs - pulling away from a junction in 2nd is dangerous (I have stalled once and almost come to a stop on a couple of occasions)
- It takes a while for the power to come in if under 3k revs
- I am finding myself having to make more gear changes in urban traffic
Sounds like the OP needs to buy himself a decent diesel. I've had no such issues with the BMW and Mercedes diesels I've had. All have pulled cleanly from low revs (especially the new twin turbo Merc engines). More torque means less gear changes unless the engine is really peaky in which case its badly designed or obsolete.
I've also driven a diesel A4 for a few hundred miles (not the 174bhp engine) and it didn't exhibit any of the above issues either.
Pulling away from a junction in second is dangerous in any car.
Pulling away from a junction in second is dangerous in any car.
I was taught the rule that if the car is moving I should use 2nd gear - only ever use 1st when the car is stationary. That 'rule' has always worked for me in all the cars I have owned, from Mini 1000s and Escort 1300s through to more powerful cars like XR2s, Pumas and the TT.
I fully accept I need to change my driving style.
Pulling away from a junction in second is dangerous in any car.
Statements like that are nonsensical - I can spin 3 wheels pulling away from a junction in 2nd in the wet in my petrol.
My 90hp diesel 306 can pull away (slowly, admittedly!) in 5th if I need it to, without giving it any revs. Never met a diesel that was easier to stall than a petrol, but they may exist I suppose.
MF it will pull away in second from a trundle, there'll just be a slight delay in the power delivery. Small price to pay for what, double the fuel economy, in my book. You should not need first. Could always dip the clutch if you needed to I suppose.
you have to put up with those stupid paddles
On VWs the 'stupid' paddles are only for manual mode, there's a fully automatic mode if you want it.
Re-mapping for diesels is the way to go! VW130PD diesel producing 187bhp & 290lb/ft torque. Smoothed out "lumpy" power delivery & brings turbo in sooner. Holds good power/torque curve throughout rev range, so no need to be up & down gearbox.
Did have to learn to be more gentle with throttle/clutch when wanting to make fast pull-aways, even from trundling on tickover in 2nd, as can quite happily spin up the tyres.
what has the remapping done to your insurance, or did you not declare it?
I was taught the rule that if the car is moving I should use 2nd gear - only ever use 1st when the car is stationary.
A well if you're moving then that's OK. Should still work OK with a decent diesel
To the OP from today's Autocar - Audi A6 2.0Tdi 174bhp review "engine suffers from poor throttle response at low crank speeds".
It sounds like the ECU map is too biased to economy for low revs and it completely agrees with your initial impressions.
Worst thing about Fords for me is that they don't like fitting cruise control.
Agreed. And unlike a Vauxhall, you can't buy a new stalk with the switch on and just plug it in 🙁 I'm going here http://www.conrad-anderson.co.uk/ to get it fitted.
Fiat, meanwhile, seem to fit cruise to more Bravos than not.
I was taught the rule that if the car is moving I should use 2nd gear - only ever use 1st when the car is stationary.
I wasn't taught that as such, but I was taught to roll up to give ways in 2nd, have a good look and try to not stop. I learned in a Pug 205 Diesel..... no turbo.... 🙂
If a car is moving 1st isn't necessary. It should pull from 5-6mph in 2nd nice and smoothly, with enough poke for general driving. (If it's a small gap, then drop to 1st gear and light the tyres up though! 😉 )
mastiles_fanylion - MemberDiesel cons
- Massive dead spot of power under about 2k revs - pulling away from a junction in 2nd is dangerous
Mine'll pull away at idle in second without any fuss. Ironically comparing with a similiar spec petrol car, I stalled the petrol one constantly as it was so incredibly gutless.
diesels rule, we have two fiestas 1.4tdci and a 16.tdci, £30 tax a year each and 60+mpg, easy to service yourself no brainer.
christ you lot need to get out more 😉
If a car is moving 1st isn't necessary
I was taught the same, and I still never had a problem in diesel 🙂 Even my auto does the same thing.
To the OP from today's Autocar - Audi A6 2.0Tdi 174bhp review "engine suffers from poor throttle response at low crank speeds".
It sounds like the ECU map is too biased to economy for low revs and it completely agrees with your initial impressions.
Sounds about right. Was caught out again tonight when flashed out and couldn't get it moving! No remaps though - it's a lease vehicle.
Get the revs up then 🙂
Yup - will be relearning my driving style after 26 years!
It's a lease company car. Brick on the accelerator! Problem solved.
It is highly frustrating though to get a new car and know it's going to be a hassle for the next couple of years.
God I hope not! I am banking on getting used to it.
It's not that big of a deal. New phone - learn how to use it. New camera - learn its features. New car - learn the right driving style. Simples.
At least the pushchair fits in the boot without having to defy the laws of physics 🙂
No 3 litre V6 TDI then? I fancy one of those in 4wd... not economical enough tho but still 🙂
I think it's incredibly hard to stall a diesel, you really have to dump the clutch when it's ticking over to manage it.
VAG diesels aren't the best for that though and you are in a big heavy car there. Try a Honda diesel, you can drive it all day without ever touching the accelerator.
When I get in a petrol car now it feels like I'm screaming it to get it moving. I find myself trying to shrink in the seat because I think everyone will be looking at me as I squeal the knackers off it trying to get it up to pace.
Samuri - you are wrong. Perhaps with some but not all.