[Closed] Did you know this about managed motorways?

I drove through at 85 on the M62 ones- I saw a fair few being flashed on the otherside including trucks(!), I was flashed and received nothing. Alittle digging and from the Examiner newspaper(?) it seems they aren't even turned on. Why bother installing them?

Now with two years of massive disruption ahead on the M60 (why does it need them?) - will the 'smart' gantries be turned on too?

You will probably find that that camera is a known and advertised static speed camera and always has been a static camera location.....unless national speed limits signs were showing on the gantries and obviously with the associated speed camera signs it's a big clue that the speed cameras will be active.

According the local paper the new managed section on the M4 near Bristol has caught more people going over 70 when the system is 'off' than they have when it is being managed. Apparently they've caught 5 people doing over 100mph

As above, I've seen people get flashed loads of times on the M62 around Leeds. Absolutely loads.

It obviously works whether the cameras are on or not because now vs 2/3 years ago 99% of people stick to 70 and its loads easier to drive through.

As above, I've seen people get flashed loads of times on the M62 around Leeds. Absolutely loads.

It obviously works whether the cameras are on or not because now vs 2/3 years ago 99% of people stick to 70 and its loads easier to drive through.

Shouldn't you be sat stuck on a train somewhere instead of blocking our motorways 😉

Alittle digging and from the Examiner newspaper(?) it seems they aren't even turned on. Why bother installing them?

The Examiner posted a story a while back [url= http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/highways-chiefs-reveal-m62-cameras-6152759 ]stating that they are on[/url] and will bust you for going over the NSL even when the signs are off. Has that changed again then?

I did see people flashed last time I went through but that was a month or so back.

Aren't they just regular Gatso cameras but programmed for the exact limit at that moment in time? "no limit" does not exist, when there is no active limit then the National Speed Limit applies.

I heard many years ago that the reason they (then) didn't use gatsos on motorways was something to do with the margin of error at higher speeds and them not being up to the task. Camera technology might have improved, or the above might well have been a load of cobblers, I don't know.

The system seems to work just fine on the M25 past Heathrow. People got used to it, accepting variable speed limits as preferable to stop/go congestion. What is the problem with you Northern folk?

Thats a badly written article because it doesn't actually say if people ARE being prosecuted. I wasn't. This part:

But a police tweet said: “Scheme is managed by @HAnews_yorks. It indicates a vehicle has exceeded national speed limit which applies when signs are off.”

West Yorkshire Police refused to comment further but the Highways Agency has now confirmed the new £150m overhead gantry system between Huddersfield and Leeds CAN catch speeding motorists, even when it is not being used to slow the traffic

It just says 'can' but not figures.

Whereas......the M60 average one is live (and for very good reason IMO):

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/424979/Britain-s-top-ten-most-lucrative-speed-cameras-raked-in-12million-in-just-three-years

It also has the highest fines. Can't people ****ing control their right foot for just 1/2mile ffs? Its to police a very dangerous blind bend. A few years ago a few young people were run over and killed as they escaped their crashed car after the sweeping BLIND bend.

The gantry cameras on the M1 between the A38 and A610 seem to only run when the reduced speed limits are in force. I thought the rest were the same. 😯

Now with two years of massive disruption ahead on the M60 (why does it need them?)

Because a) managed motorways can carry more traffic than ordinary motorways and b) the M60 is busy.

The system seems to work just fine on the M25 past Heathrow. People got used to it, accepting variable speed limits as preferable to stop/go congestion. What is the problem with you Northern folk?

Really? As someone who drives that section of road nearly every day I can tell you that in general the limits are ignored - and quite often are still displayed on a nearly empty motorway.

The biggest problem on the M25 is people doing 90mph between gantries and stamping on the brakes to drop below the speed limit. They're not enforced - and probably couldn't be - on this particular bit of road.

Thats a badly written article because it doesn't actually say if people ARE being prosecuted. I wasn't.

Ah, yes, you're right. Just wondered if you'd seen something else contradicting it. The Examiner is simply chock full of badly written articles...

FWIW I think the M62 needs slowing down between Hudds and Leeds, you see lots and lots of stupid driving on there and volume of traffic is high. People are forever whinging because bits of it are closed while they scrape some ****wit or other off the tarmac. But then when it's open they whinge about the possibility of getting busted for speeding. 🙄

I heard many years ago that the reason they (then) didn't use gatsos on motorways was something to do with the margin of error at higher speeds and them not being up to the task.

My understanding was that the new side-gantry HADECS3 cameras are 'always on' and the traditional over-the-top Gatsos are only live when the reduced limits are in force. If that's not the case then the limits on the Gatsos must be set pretty high, as they simply don't have the resources to process everyone who will go through them at >70mph (ie, most people on the motorway).

Personally i'd like to know who is in charge of managing a stretch of road and how they base their judgements re speed etc.
so many times I have been on the m4/m5 and the signs read 50mph/60mph and also open the hard shoulder as they highlight congestion.
yet there are only about a dozen or so cars on the roads and all well spaced apart over a good mile or two.
so is it that there's someone with poor judgement deeming the road as busy and therefore slowing down the maximum speed and opening up the hard shoulder. or are they not being managed in real time and the speed limit / hard shoulder have remained the same beyond their need?

BTW I have no problems with managed motorways or variable speed limits

Googling,

http://www.wakefieldexpress.co.uk/news/local-news/m62-speed-cameras-active-at-all-times-1-6164836

The section between junction 25 at Brighouse and junction 30 and Rothwell was completed last month and highways bosses have confirmed cameras remain active at all times.

Previously it had been thought motorists would only be automatically fined if they broke speed limits when the signs were on and the managed motorway variable speed limits were active.

A Highways Agency spokeswoman said: “The speed enforcement system is capable of enforcing variable speed limits including the national speed limit, including when the signs are blank.”

I'm 99% sure that the M62 MM is HADECS, not Gatso. So I'd hazard that they're telling the truth, and that would be why you saw it fire.

Personally i'd like to know who is in charge of managing a stretch of road and how they base their judgements re speed etc.

I don't actually know, but I'd have thought that a degree of automation was in play. So if a gantry detects that traffic has suddenly slowed right down, it'll slow oncoming traffic further upstream. If that's the case then a 'phantom traffic jam' could readily cause what you describe, someone jams on for something, the limits come into effect, and by the time you get to the cause there's nothing there.

I'm purely speculating here, mind.

don't have the resources to process everyone who will go through them at >70mph

If they're following ACPO guidelines (and I think all do) it would only be people doing 80 and above who'd get a ticket (the allowance being 10% + 2 mph margin of error)?

I'm guessing, but I'd expect they're set higher than that.

Hum, thanks for the post. It was always my understanding the cameras where only on when the limit was set to less than 50. I do know the ones on the M25 around the A3/M3/M4 where not activated for 10 years due to some legal dispute, they are on now though.

For a couple of years the southern section of the M25 (Kent/Surrey/Sussex borders - M20/Clackett Lane/Brighton/A217 area) were turned off because of some wrangle about the accuracy and Legal entity able to prosecute. Loads of folks use that section and for a while at least you see folks hacking at 100mph + knowing the cameras were off.
Then came the roadwords and ave 50 mph limits and masses of folks in the office got pinged because they failed to understand the methodology of "Average" and failed to recognise 50 mph as the limit..
They've recently removed the roadworks and the cameras are most deffo on, often driving back from the coast on a late Sunday Eve I count at least 10 being pinged..

Ah, this is a good explanation (of the Gatso-based gantry system):

http://www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk/gatso10.htm

The system can enforce a number of speed limits. That is to say, it has a fixed number of speed limits rather than being constantly variable. The speed limits are 0 (a.k.a. red X or "lane closed"), 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 and NS (the national speed limit, currently 70mph). Each speed limit also has a user-settable threshold, so that the actual speed at which an offence occurs is the sum of the speed limit and this amount (e.g.. a 40mph limit with a 10mph threshold means it will enforce at 50+mph.). Generally the threshold is no less than 10%+2 of the speed limit, but this is merely a guideline and it can be anything from 0-99mph, and is entirely at the discretion of the operator.

the system can record an absolute maximum of 400 offences
...
If the camera runs out of film it will enter "dummy mode" whereby it flashes twice to simulate taking 2 photographs (and make the motorist think they have been caught).

So ideally, the Gatso camera needs to be set at a threshold where it will record 400 offences between film changes. How long do you reckon that'll take if it's set at 80mph? Not happening, it'll either be set very high in order to save film for when it's actually needed, or (as I believe is actually the case) it'll be switched off due to the inherent capacity limitation of the system.

It depends... earlier editions of the HADECS standards did not permit cameras to prosecute when a variable limit is not in force. With HADECS v3 now in place, they can.

And Hora - do you really think the M60 doesn't need a Managed Motorways (actually Smart Motorways is the term the HA are now promoting) scheme? Yes, it'll be crazy disruptive whilst it's going on and it probably won't solve all the congestion issues, but it could help. However, to make a real difference, what is needed is to get rid of about half the junctions...

Can't people **** control their right foot for just 1/2mile ffs?

I drove through at 85 on the M62 ones

Quite astonishing lack of self awareness on display.

no the M60 does not need one. Most of the time the weight of traffic ensures the speed is low due to the sheer number of feeder junctions. Ontop of this the idiots who queue over barton bridge in TWO lanes to get to the Trafford centre whilst the next junction (indicated by signs) is empty and you can get straight into the Trafford centre freely.

If they were concerned about safety they'd CLOSE the turn off to the Trafford centre on Barton bridge.

Its not about safety though, the contracts were signed years ago under the Labour government. Labour also signed contracts for average cams on alot more of our motorways. Alot of these contracts are costly to get out of. The Tories aren't in a rush to get rid of them and that count but also it stimulates growth in/contributes to 'construction/civils' etc.

Again the 'it'll make it safer argument is crock'. Its tight, multiple exits so will always be congested with even half capacity. The smart idea may work in some areas but not here. Heres to TWO years of gridlock.

Cheers Labour and now the Tories.

So ideally, the Gatso camera needs to be set at a threshold where it will record 400 offences between film changes.

Do they really still use film???

On the M62 ones- wasn't the responsibility for the upkeep/administration WYorks Police but the revenue was central Government? In that alone I can see why theres been no prosecutions yet. Like I said I sailed through at least two before I realised.

Do they really still use film???

I think there's something special about some of the cameras that do flash at the NSL? The ones on the M20 (or M25 in Kent, I forget which) are something newer, and definately do flash over the NSL. The one's on the M25 past Derby are just the normal gatso's and definately didn't.

I'd rather they were on, makes it easier for the majority to do 70 and only penalises the minority who did 80 and viewed it as some sort of god given right, before having to slam on the brakes causing tail backs, or crashing and closing the motorway for a few hours.

Is there a time allowance on them for when the limits change? I've driven through them and seen them turn on at 50 with not enough distance to go to reasnobly slow down without braking hard and wondered if theres a delay before they start recording speeders or if it would be a valid defence in court to say "it changed with 30m to go and there was an Audi 6" from my exhaust pipe".

Its to police a very dangerous blind bend

What polices the blind (tighter) bend in the other direction which doesn't have cameras? Which incidentally also has a very dubious merging of slower traffic from the right thing going on?

I was always under the assumption that the cameras worked at all times even when restrictions were not in place. There was something on Facebook a while ago about a meeting were it was agreed the cameras would be operation at all times.
I've not got my head around the traffic management and speed restrictions. All lanes appear to always be opened and speed restrictions for no apparent reason such as 10pm on a night when the traffic is light, good weather and speed restricted to 50. Travelling all the way from Leeds to the M61 and no accidents or signs of bad weather.

My information comes from an ex collegue who is now an "information systems" principal engineer for the highways agency, and is that the early system is only operative when the reduced limits are in force, and is set to match the recommend (10%+2mph) but the later system is always active. However, it was found, during trials, the current system could not handle the shear volume of traffic that passes it in excess of the nominal 70mph limit, and so, when no "local limit" is in place, the set point is pretty high (a true 88mph has been mentioned to me, but unconfirmed). That would tally quite well with what i've experienced, and given that most speedometers overread by a significant margin at these speeds would suggest you'd have to go under the new cameras at well over an indicated 90mph to get done.......

The ones on the M20 (or M25 in Kent, I forget which) are something newer, and definately do flash over the NSL.

They are, they're the HADECS ones I've been talking about for half the thread.

^^ You may need to repeat that lot then 😆

On another point, Vans.. You know Vans with odd speed limit restrictions..
Do the cameras know it's a Van, is there some sort of Colour filter on the lens that pulls out just "white" ?

Curious like 😆

I’m enjoying my M60 experience at the moment. Speed limit is set to 50mph and the traffic seems to be flowing much better without so many speed up / slow down moments. It has knocked between 5 and 10 minutes off my daily commute and it is so much easier getting on at J17.

As a double bonus it is much quieter in my back garden too which is about 400m from J18.

I’d happily see the whole network covered with average speed cameras, but I would have to pay for cruise control to be retro fitted to the car.

I like the smart motorways and I'm 100% certainly that the M42 section around Birmingham don't go off if the system is not in use...I've known people* go through that section and Mach 4 a number of times and never received a ticket

*my legal department suggests I don't name individuals.

For a very long time none of the cameras on the M42 worked, at any time.

On another point, Vans.. You know Vans with odd speed limit restrictions..
Do the cameras know it's a Van, is there some sort of Colour filter on the lens that pulls out just "white" ?

I was wondering this, towing the boat back after a race I usualy stick to the speed limit (60, indicated on the speedo), mainly because it'll still do 42-45mpg (1.6 petrol C-max) compared to 40-42 without the boat at 70, versus about 32-33mpg at 70. But I know others who happily do their usual 70mph (actual on the GPS). I suppose you could make a computer look for 2 numberpates in quick sucession, but I guess the cameras are almost enirely dumb and just sense the speed of the object, then fire off the shutter, and it's upto a person or software to read the numberplates after the event.

Average speed cameras could though I suppose as they're reading every plate in real time and would just need to be programed to look for vehicles longer than expected as it presumably can figure out the make/model from the plates?

You can tell the foreigners with their sat navs on when coming of the channel tunnel as they all break down fairly hard at the first gantry with cameras whereas the Brits tend to just carry on on the basis they are not on

Average speed cameras could though I suppose as they're reading every plate in real time and would just need to be programed to look for vehicles longer than expected as it presumably can figure out the make/model from the plates?

I am on the M62 all along the managed bit every day. When it was first put in it was great as it managed the speeds really well and kept the traffic moving without the ususal bunching up. However now everyone knows where the cameras are and just slows down for them, which has reduced their effectiveness a fair bit. I also haven't seen anyone flashed for a very long time now even though I've seen a fair few people going through the cameras at well above the posted limits.

I wish they'd put a camera on every gantry, not every 3rd one, and make sure they were flashing everyone who exceeded the limits. It has made a big difference to how safe the M62 is so far and I wouldn't want that to be reduced just cos the cameras aren't switched on!

Predictably someone has to say it but can you imagine this conversation about any other illegal activity?

Similar thread on murdertrackworld about CCTV and where best to bludgeon nuns to death with out getting caught!

.I've known people* go through that section and Mach 4 a number of times and never received a ticket

Theoretically, they're unreliable beyond 130mph and would be inadmissible evidence. I don't recommend you test this theory.

On another point, Vans.. You know Vans with odd speed limit restrictions..

I read somewhere earlier today that one of the technologies can measure vehicle length. Can't remember which offhand (and don't know how true that is).

Predictably someone has to say it but can you imagine this conversation about any other illegal activity?

What illegal activity would that be? I'm talking about the technical operation of traffic cameras, I fail to see what's illegal in that. The Highway Agency have spokespeople telling the press all this information.

Don't know about the cameras but when the hard shoulder is in use on the M6 round Brum, I've found myself driving on the hard shoulder for miles with absolutely no-one else doing the same. Big signs saying 'Use Hard Shoulder' and a speed limit over it but only me using it.

I'm out of this conversation- difficult to contradict a moderator with ban button even he/she's encouraging law breaking.
I'm just glad he's such a nice person and not a bell end.

Don't know about the cameras but when the hard shoulder is in use on the M6 round Brum, I've found myself driving on the hard shoulder for miles with absolutely no-one else doing the same. Big signs saying 'Use Hard Shoulder' and a speed limit over it but only me using it.

I found they always seem to alternate between 'use hard shoulder' and 'use hard shoulder for next junction only' which just made them irritating to use.

I'm out of this conversation- difficult to contradict a moderator with ban button even he/she's encouraging law breaking.
I'm just glad he's such a nice person and not a bell end.

I thought speed cameras were only allowed on dangerous roads. Have these rebuilt section been built dangerous to justify the camera, or more likely, to make money

Well the M62 was always pretty dangerous!

As far as the M62 around Leeds and Bradford, I have being reliably imformed they are set at 77mph when no other limits are shown. And as for weather they are working or not, at a recent speed awareness course, my friend said she was surrounded by M62 drivers all caught doing 80mph ish. Now I don't have too many sympathies with people breaking the law, but 77mph is a tad low.

An indicated 80mph in most cars is likely to be less than 77mph in reality, so that seems plausible to me.

The people of South Wales seem to be too stupid to realise why the M4 variable speed limit is there. Last night they were on 40mph with warnings of queues and congestion, and people were bombing through at 60-70 and gues what? There's a queue!

FFS. a) get a clue and b) why don't the authorities actually try and educate the idiots? It's known to work, but only if people stick to it, and people won't stick to it if they don't know why it's there.

Funnily enough, this topic has been on Radio Leeds this morning. The highways agency have confirmed that when no speed limit signs are showing the cameras ARE still on.

Indicated 80 is nothing, and I have a potty mouth. The police should be catching lane change squeezer-in drivers, undertakers and brake testers.

From [url= http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmhansrd/cm140206/text/140206w0001.htm ]Hansard:[/url]

Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many types and number of cameras are in use on the M42 motorway; what information is collected or detected by them; and whether such cameras are used to detect breaches of both the national speed limit and the managed motorway limits. [186153]

Mr Goodwill: There are four types of cameras in use on the M42 which are owned and operated by the Highways Agency.

There are 16 fixed automatic number plate recognition cameras (ANPR) which are used to measure journey time reliability by detecting the movement of partial vehicle number plates between defined links on the motorway. These cameras are not used to detect breaches of speed limits and the number does not include ANPR cameras which are wholly operated and maintained by the police and are subject to Home Office regulations.

There are 190 fixed monitoring cameras. These are used by the Highways Agency Regional Control Centre to ensure that the hard shoulder is clear of stationary vehicles, debris or other obstructions before opening the hard shoulder as a live running lane. These cameras are not used to detect breaches of speed limits.

There are 35 pan, tilt and zoom cameras. These are manually operated and used by operations personnel to monitor the motorway network, identify issues and deal with incidents. These cameras are not used to detect breaches of speed limits.

There are six Highways Agency digital enforcement cameras (HADEC) which are used to detect breaches of the speed limits set on the motorway at fixed points. These cameras in most part are only used when Active Traffic Management is in operation. However, all the HADEC sites are capable of enforcing speeds of up to the national speed limit. This is done at the discretion of the West Midlands Camera Enforcement Unit.

6 Feb 2014 : Column 315W

The police should be catching ... undertakers

Why?