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I'm not a tennis follower, but I'm having a problem mustering much sympathy - she was warned for being coached, which she clearly was; she was penalised for breaking her racket, which she did; she was penalised for abusing the umpire.
In what way was that "sexism"? I don't doubt that she, and others, have suffered from racism and sexism, but it's hard to see that this is an example.
Yes.
...but moving on: I agree with you. She saw she was losing and decided to become a stroppy teenager to steal the headlines
The whole " you'll never work with me again" bit was blatant bullying too. Two wrongs dont makeca right.
The point she was trying to make was not that she was punished for what she did, but that male players had exhibited the same behaviours on court and had not had points docked. She was complaining about dual standards and inconsistency.
The same referee has sanctioned several male players this year, including Andy Murray.
Not tennis's finest moment IMHO..
The WTA backing Williams... time to apply Ramos level discipline across to teh mens game. Is he the tennis equivalent of Collina providing a professional benchmark of standards...?
http://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/45468290
Agreed that Ramos wasn't the right person to take it out on, but her outburst(s) were out of character. She was railing against previous instances where male players have been warned rather than sanctioned, and her timing was such that she appeared to be petulant. Perhaps we could put it all down to raging hormones and feeling a bit mumsy? I'm sure someone will before long.
Or we could perhaps take note of her assertions that in certain circumstances players' behaviour is viewed as either laddish/macho, or unseemly and unladylike?
Woman behaving badly demands to be treated the same as men behaving badly. Which is absolutely correct but unfortunately the demand loses some of its moral force because of her bad behaviour.
I like Serena, she's a phenomenal player, and comes aceoss as a cracking lass, but she's made an arse of herself here.
She also stole Ozakas thunder, poor show Serena.
She has form for this, unfortunately.
An almost identical incident happened when she lost the US open final to Sam Stoser where, just like this year, she was losing badly to a better player on the day.
All the headlines in both cases were about Serena, meaning the victors didn't get the recognition they deserved.
Her behaviour has very little to do with sexism, and a lot more to do with bad sportsmanship and being a sore loser.
The idea that you would ever be able to even objectively measure the assertion that men and women are treated differently on the court is far fetched let alone claim to know it tacitly. How would you measure it?
To get where she has it helps if you really hate losing.
......and I think we can see from this how much she hates losing.
What a great role model for young players and i won't be buying a bloody mattress either.
She has form for this, unfortunately.
+1 She was fined $80,000 for abusing an official in the US open semi final a few years back as well.
i won’t be buying a bloody mattress either.
Ewww!!
She should have been penalised for acting badly and male players who act the same way should also be penalised for it. A big display of poor sportsmanship all round.
She certainly wasn’t showing much respect to her mixed race female opponent. Funny how a poor loser wouldn’t realise that even after she’d made a spectacle of herself and throwing her toys out of the roam.
She has had to put up with a lot over the years, apparently, but she was bang to rights on all counts (coaching - the coach admitted it, racquet abuse - she smashed a racquet, verbal abuse - she called the umpire a thief and a liar). Throwing a hissy fit because she was losing is just being a poor sport. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was a cynical ploy to put her opponent off of her game.
She should apologise to Naomi Osaka at least.
Woman behaving badly demands to be treated the same as men behaving badly. Which is absolutely correct but unfortunately the demand loses some of its moral force because of her bad behaviour.
This.
And Osaka needs a public apology.
So just out of interest, why do women only play three sets rather than five?
EDIT - actually turns out there is no reason that can be found. They should play five sets and earn the same prize money.
Out of interest..... Really
Why do the men only play 3 sets at other tournaments?
They should play five sets and earn the same prize money.
Can we dock prize money where the men win in 3?
She should apologise to Naomi Osaka at least.
Out of interest did you watch the prize giving?
"She was fined $80,000 for abusing an official in the US open semi final a few years back as well."
Which I think is part of the problem tbh- she threatened that umpire with physical violence and walked away with a slap on the wrist- less than 20% of her match fee for that match alone. No bans, no contrition, no lasting impact. And this is tennis, where chucking your racket is considered a grievous offence.
What I keep coming back to is that people say men are treated better; but what man in professional tennis has gone off like this? Kyrgios is considered a bad boy and an embarassment for a fraction as much, people still remember Tarango and McEnroe for less decades on. The only comparable incident I can think of in the last decade is also Serena Williams.
Unfortunately while I don't believe the original incident was motivated by sexism, there has been a shocking level of sexism and racism in the reaction to it.
Oh, definitely. But that's to be expected frankly, there's a lot of ****s out there.
Cracking cartoon in the Australian Herald Sun though.
Yup saw that. Interesting that America are playing the racist card on that too. 'Cos they're sooooo good at looking after the rights of BME, generally.
<div class="bbp-reply-author">andykirk
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<div class="bbp-reply-content">Cracking cartoon in the Australian Herald Sun though
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It would be if it looked liked Serena Williams, rather than a caricature of a black person from the 1930s
Also not helped by the cartoonists odd decision to turn Osaka blonde, wtf is that about?
(not to say that her tantrum didn't deserve mocking!)
Aaaargh. Why oh why did the cartoonist have to make the opponent in the picture slim, white(ish) and blonde?
If it wasn’t for that, I reckon it would have been just plain funny. Unfortunately the cartoon hints at the idea that a lot of folk, mostly male, would much rather a piece of eye candy was the most dominant female player. Not massively sure about the racist bit, but the sexist bit is pretty obvious.
It would be if it looked liked Serena Williams
it does, it is a caricature of her. It's black, because she is black.
Look at caricatures of Boris Johnson, they are just a blown up and exaggerated.
bit of a screw up getting the opponent wrong, maybe the artist just didn't think to check out who the opponent was.
she's a repeat offender and doesn't deserve any sympathy.
Nice article in Irish Times
“The issue is not whether you believe Serena Williams was justified or out of line. It’s not about whether there are cultural differences between Australia and the rest of the world. It’s about whether it is ever acceptable to use someone’s race, gender or ethnicity to lampoon them....At what point do such portrayals stop being “satire”, or courageous attempts to “mock poor behaviour”, and become merely old-fashioned racism? The answer, for many observers, is the point at which a 23 time grand-slam champion, and arguably the greatest sportswoman alive, is reduced to the kind of caricature that wouldn’t have looked out of place in Punch or the pamphlets of the Jim Crow era.”
It’s about whether it is ever acceptable to use someone’s race, gender or ethnicity to lampoon them
how are you suppossed to draw a caricature that doesn't imply her race and gender ?
this is all pathetic and sums up how pathetic society is nowadays - collective virtue signalling at every possible opportunity.
Look at her track record of intimidating and threatening officials, should she not be brought up on that as a repeat offender, or are we condoning bullying now if it is from certain people we like ?
Look at caricatures of Boris Johnson, they are just a blown up and exaggerated.
Is that possible?
I notice the Herald Sun has doubled down to defend the cartoon, which they presumably believe will probably play better with its core home audience than worldwide opinion.
Whatever you think of Serena, and I don't think particularly highly of her behaviour, in a global media age, that just makes Australia seem backwards-looking.
If you think of satire and mockery as something that works best when it is aimed at the powerful and not the weak and vulnerable, in theory you should be able to mock a powerful woman such as Serena Williams.
But the wounds of the segregationist era in America are far from healed, that should be obvious, which is why imagery like that strikes a highly unpleasant note with audiences there. It reminds everyone of a very near-past when these images and worse were a daily part and parcel of the national discourse on race.
Look at her track record of intimidating and threatening officials
C'mon then, let's have them. You so us how Serena has behaved worse by comparison to any other tennis player, I'm sure you have an outrageous list as long as your arm...
It would be if it looked liked Serena Williams, rather than a caricature of a black person from the 1930s
Also not helped by the cartoonists odd decision to turn Osaka blonde, wtf is that about?
I believe Osaka dyed her her for the final. - https://www.today.com/video/us-open-winner-naomi-osaka-speaks-out-on-controversial-serena-williams-match-1316645443687?v=raila&
Could you provide a modern cartoon of an African-American that doesn't play on the looks of the subject? Or a cartoon that definitely looks like Serena but without looking like a caricature of her?
Yeah we've all said we're not condoning her behaviour, you really should pay more attention tg.
It's an image straight out our segregation era America
He even turned her opponent into a loveable ayrian blonde 🙄
Amazing that people are trying to defend it
how are you suppossed to draw a caricature that doesn’t imply her race and gender ?
This.
You have to wonder how many of those claiming the cartoon is racist are BME.
Oh lord. It's a cartoon. A very good one at that. Amazing people are trying to tell others what should and should not be depicted in a cartoon and feel themselves qualified to be cartoon police for others.
TurnerGuy I couldn't agree more.
All looked not that different to someone suffering from roid rage.
I think she should have been fined the full $1.8m she got as prize money for loosing that match.
C’mon then, let’s have them
this article lists three of them :
quote from this match :
"You will never, ever, ever be on another court of mine as long as you live."
sounds a bit like bullying and trying to use her position in the game.
to the officials in 2011 :
"You're nobody. You're ugly on the inside."
"You're totally out of control. You're a hater and unattractive inside. What a loser."
as Stoser (the winner) said
"You don't expect anyone to say that to an umpire. I certainly wouldn't want to be on the other end of it. It definitely wasn't nice."
Could you provide a modern cartoon of an African-American that doesn’t play on the looks of the subject
Oh look
https://twitter.com/Cartoon4sale/status/859523469482106880?s=19
You can mock daft people without channeling the<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> 1930s deep south</span>
3!! In a career that started in 1995! wow, she's out of control*
* you may need to turn up your sarcasm-o-meter to get the full effect
You have to wonder how many of those claiming the cartoon is racist are BME.
Well Martin Luther Kings daughter and the National Association of Black Journalists for a start
3!! In a career that started in 1995! wow, she’s out of control*
* you may need to turn up your sarcasm-o-meter to get the full effect
those are just 3 high profile events, and she admits her temper is better now than it was, which implies she had a lot more outbursts.
just accept it and stop bing such a hater...
and ugly inside...
How many contributors to this thread follow tennis regularly I wonder? I only ask as AFAIK there's not a 10 min youtube of Serena smashing rackets like there is for Djokovic for instance (who's well know for it, and in most crowds there's a least one spectator calling out for him to "Smash It, and it's not the ball they're talking about) . I'm not going to deny that her behaviour wasn't bad on that day, she certainly deserved the penalties she received, but the idea that Serena (of all the WTO) players that I watch, uses her position to "regularly" misbehave is laughable. She's one of the last I'd accuse of intimidating behaviour, and certainly in comparison to some of the men, most of the women players are remarkably sanguine and cool headed.
I will say that the coverage of the Williams sisters is remarkably and consistently different from that of other female tennis players currently on the circuit. Commentators (on the game) will still point out that their colour is still apparently worthy of mention, their physique, their upbringing, their father, their clothes, all are talked about in commentary to a level beyond that of pretty much every other player (male players included).
Does that excuse her behaviou? Absolutely not, but that they are singled out for comment of things other than their tennis skills pretty routinely still, must after all these years be a defining part of their mental preparation each time they go out to play. That this is still in the news days after the event, in a way that it simply would not for any other player (male or female) says a lot.
but that they are singled out for comment of things other than their tennis skills pretty routinely still, must after all these years be a defining part of their mental preparation each time they go out to play
I don't think anybody contests that - but the point was that the punishment she received in this match was entirely reasonable, and claiming that it was "sexism" is profoundly unfair to the umpire (who cannot respond).
Well Martin Luther Kings daughter and the National Association of Black Journalists for a start
Interesting, I'll look into that. Hopefully they aren't wanting to censure all satire against BME.
claiming that it was “sexism” is profoundly unfair to the umpire
Don't disagree with you DrJ, her behaviour was egregious and her language particularly vituperative. What I'm commenting on is the incorrect (IMO) impression that a lot of posters have that Serena has form for it, or that they (the Williams collectively) routinely try to intimidate their way to wins. I suspect had Krygios or Djokovic behaved the same way there may not have been 3 threads started on a MTB forum about their behaviour.
What I’m commenting on is the incorrect (IMO) impression that a lot of posters have that Serena has form for it
she has form for it...
As NBC sports commentator and former tennis pro Mary Carillo said :
“At her very best – and she is very often at her very best – I respect and admire Serena beyond measure. She is so powerful, she’s an important voice, she’s a ferocious competitor. But at her very worst, as she was on this night, she acts like a bully.”
And she's acted like that a few times now.
One commentator on one incident doesn't give her "form" 3 incidents that you could find over a 20year career doesn't give her "form" either. I can't remember a tournament when a player hasn't called out a line judge or an umpire decision and there are serial offenders much much worse than the Williams Sisters
Clearly you've made up your mind about this and nothing I say will persuade you otherwise, I think we'll have to agree to disagree
Smashing raquets, swearing etc are not even close to calling the umpire a cheat. Serena is the world no1 and her behaviour in this instance is terrible. She should be fined her whole prize money and banned from next years tournament.
If a rugby or football player called a ref a cheat to their face what would happen?
One commentator on one incident
she's got number 1 and number 3 on this list :
and this us open has yet to be added.
there's several commentators making the same statements about this incident, try using Google...
https://nypost.com/2018/09/08/serena-acted-like-a-sore-loser/
https://blog.tradesharktennis.com/serena-williams-is-a-great-player-but-is-also-a-bully/
https://www.reddit.com/r/tennis/comments/9eoyud/serena_is_the_bully_not_the_victim_naomi_osaka_is/
https://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/01/sports/tennis/01iht-SRSERENA.html
plus all the comments agreeing plus a load more behind paywalls...
loads of people have recognised her bullying tendencies.
To her credit she only played one “-ist” card
"I swear to God I'll ****ing take the ball and shove it down your ****ing throat."
S. Williams, 2009. To line judge.
Re the cartoon- I think it's a reasonably good joke but a very shit cartoon. Either racist or incompetent. I don't buy "caricature" either, it just doesn't look like her imo and when it ends up looking more like a racist cariature- massive lips etc- then hmmmm.
Only just seen it, shocking. I see similar images in the Spanish media and although cringeworthy you have to remember that Spain is 30 or 40 years behind on these things. Didn't realise Australia was too.
Isn't the herald sun broadly comparable to the mail? Although even the Mail would not have dared to run that cartoon.
Didn’t realise Australia was too.
Herald Sun is a news corp RW rag, the anti PC line on the front page is right up their street and on their agenda.
There are sections of Australia that are racist and ugly right wingers but it's also a massively diverse nation, don't lump everyone together there.
Of course not, and to be clear I wasn't insinuating all Spaniards are like that either but it is allowed to continue without being overly condemned.