[Closed] Diane Abbott - I'm surprised it has taken a year

glitchybump

zulu- I am lost as to why you would be so incredibly evasive about answering this simple, reasonable question.

cos it has TRAP written all over it 🙂 I am at a loss why you keep insisting on this. If you understood what racism was then the answer is obvious :-0

Mcboo - and was I right?

I like Diane Abbott, she's the antidote to Boris Johnson.

It was a slightly silly off-hand remark, but frankly not without a grain of truth - big deal.

The worst thing about it is that all the hoo-ha gives real racists a platform to spout off and try to justify their own clearly unjustifiable opinions.

Whats with the anti CFH tags? on this and other threads.

You been trampling peasants again CFH?

Ain't it about time you Scummers started actually reading stuff and trying to understand it, rather than making things up in yer own heads?

Youse, who worship that violent thug Roy Keane, who once called Mick McCarthy an 'English *'?

"You were a crap player, you are a crap manager, the only reason I have any dealings with you is that somehow you are manager of my country and you're not even Irish, you English *. You can stick the World Cup up your b*****ks."

Hypocrites.

Read. Learn.

"Liverpool Football Club have supported Luis Suarez because we fundamentally do not believe that Luis on that day - or frankly any other - did or would engage in a racist act.

"Notably, his actions on and off the pitch with his team-mates and in the community have demonstrated his belief that all athletes can play together and that the colour of a person's skin is irrelevant.

"Continuing a fight for justice in this particular case beyond today would only obscure the fact that the club wholeheartedly supports the efforts of the Football Association, the Football League and the Premier League to put an end to any form of racism in English football.

"It is time to put the Luis Suarez matter to rest and for all of us, going forward, to work together to stamp out racism in every form both inside and outside the sport.

"It is for this reason that we will not appeal against the eight-game suspension of Luis Suarez."

Oh look:

http://www.****/sport/football/article-2082325/Patrice-Evra-N-word-video-youtube.html

😕

Poor sweet innocent Patrice....

Its tediously predictable scouse persecution complex I'm afraid Fred. But in this casre they're unquestioningly defending racism.

Whilst you're making culturally derogatory statements? 😕

Whatever your opinions Fred, Dalglish is doing himself and Liverpool no favours whatsoever with this stance. Everyone else just sees it as defending racism.

"[b]This charge is not saying Luis Suarez is a racist[/b]. It's saying, on this occasion, he used racist language.

"It doesn't make him a bad guy - he needs to learn what is acceptable."

[i]-Lord Ousman of the Kick It Out anti-racism campaign.[/i]

Mcboo - and was I right?

I dont think so. But thats not the point.....is it chum.

TJ, it's just tags. Am sure the perpetrators will have received the same warning from teh modz that I did when I used "TJ Argues" as a tag! 🙂

Oh it's ten times now is it? Funny, cos the official report claimed Evra had said it was only seven, but there you go eh. (Btw Suarez admitted to saying it only once)

And how exactly am I 'defending' Liverpool FC? I happen to agree with their stance,

Liverpool FC and Suarez have accepted the punishment handed out.

Now I spose you're going to call for the punishment of Evra for using a culturally insulting term (sudaca- a highly derogatory term especially in the context of the incident) first, before Suarez had said anything to him

No, thought not...

Can we not just hand Diane Abbott an eight match ban and be done with this thread?

Does the labour party have a mess revolver?
That's what she should be handed.

I like Diane Abbott, she's the antidote to Boris Johnson.

Each to their own, thick and prone to silly comments, intelligent and prone to silly comments. Who would you invite for dinner?

It was a slightly silly off-hand remark

Possibly

...{intentional bypass} - big deal.

Yes, mole hill, ditto Suarez?

The worst thing about it is that all the hoo-ha gives real racists a platform to spout off and try to justify their own clearly unjustifiable opinions.

To coin a phrase used above, that's just a lazy slur. Too easy to hide behind this excuse and deny that racism like sexism is a two-way thing and we do ourselves a dis-service if we fail to pick this up.

Does the labour party have a mess revolver?
That's what she should be handed.

I think Ed has it at the moment.

borris johnson is intelligent????????

Effin:

I haven't seen the Evra/Suarez footage but I understand from their report that the FA had linguist advisors in who watched the footage - presumably it's them that said how many times he might have used any particular terms

He was clearly arguing with and shouting at Evra, so claims that it was a common term of endearment or whatever are plainly ludicrous - defending him is as daft as TJ's stance on this thread. Seriously.

The fact that Evra is an arse of the highest order does not indemnify Suarez. Evra should, however, also be punished for ungentlemanly conduct and bringing the game into disrepute - or something

Yes he can spell Boris for starters 😉 but admittedly he tries to hide it as often as possible!!

But kimbers, I wasn't saying which was which!!!

teamhurtmore
Too easy to hide behind this excuse and deny that racism like sexism is a two-way thing and we do ourselves a dis-service if we fail to pick this up.

No one is denying racism works all ways - just some of us do not believe this comment to be racist.

bravohotel8er - Member
I agree with elfin,

Me too. (Universe disappears up it's own fundament.)

TJ - I am not sure if you have made that point before? I could have missed it. Ok, really off for a run know. Where will this be in a few hours?

rightplacerighttime - Member
I like Diane Abbott, she's the antidote to Boris Johnson.

It was a slightly silly off-hand remark, but frankly not without a grain of truth - big deal.

The worst thing about it is that all the hoo-ha gives real racists a platform to spout off and try to justify their own clearly unjustifiable opinions.

Another one throwing the slurs at the Real Racists.

The fact that Evra is an arse of the highest order does not indemnify Suarez. Evra should, however, also be punished for ungentlemanly conduct and bringing the game into disrepute - or something

Suarez deserves punishment and is being punished. Liverpool FC accept this, but have defended their player against allegations he is a 'racist'. Something Evra, the FA and Kick It Out agree with.

Suarez said something that was insulting but in the country and culture he is from, is not considered 'racist'.

Evra said something that was not 'racist', but highly insulting.

Suarez (deservedly) gets an 8-match ban. Evra walks away unpunished.

Man U fayns scream 'racist' yet choose to conveniently ignore the transgressions of their own players.

🙄

I have not read the full report

Ah, well, until you do, I'm going to ignore anything you have to say, as you're clearly ignorant and ill-informed on the matter. Bye.

thm

I thought you were going for a run?

To coin a phrase used above, that's just a lazy slur.

No it's not - and the reason it's not is that it's self evident that racism isn't just what black people do to white people.

Unfortunately lots of people seem to be making that the centre of the debate AS IF racism were something that worked EQUALLY in both directions, which is also self evidently not the case.

Racism black on white is tiny problem

Racism white on black is a huge problem

Pretending that these have equivalence isn't just lazy, but racist.

Fred. You're quoting Kick it Out's Lord Ouseley as defending Suarez and Liverpool. Have you read the news today

[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/16424487.stm ]Kick it Out[/url]

What he actually says is this:

[i]"Suarez's attempt at a belated apology is nothing short of lamentable.

"I cannot believe that a club of Liverpool's stature, and with how it has previously led on matters of social injustice and inequality, can allow its integrity and credibility to be debased by such crass and ill-considered responses.

"Liverpool have been particularly hypocritical. You can't on the one hand wear a Kick It Out T-shirt in a week of campaigning against racism when this is also happening on the pitch: it's the height of hypocrisy.[/i]

AND to add to that

[i]Piara Powar, executive director of Football Against Racism in Europe, believes the FA would be within its rights to charge Liverpool and its manager Kenny Dalglish over their handling of the situation.

"Liverpool have constantly undermined the investigation and its outcome," he told BBC Sport.

"They have been disrespectful to the FA and questioned its integrity and neutrality.

"If a manager had done that in a post-match interview the FA would have brought disrepute charges."[/i]

I'm sorry Fred, but you're wrong. Suarez is a racist. Its been proven. The evidence has been published. And liverpool FC are therefore defending racism. Its that simple.

If Suarez thought his language was acceptable then its LFC's fault for allowing him to think that it was. So, given that, a bit of contrition may be in order. Not defiant and mindless posturing

Racism black on white is tiny problem

Racism white on black is a huge problem

It doesn't matter. Racism is worng legally and morally. If we want racism gone then both sides must play by the rules, otherwise it adds fuel to the fire. The "size" of the problems is of not relevant. Wrong is wrong.

Pretending that these have equivalence isn't just lazy, but racist.

That's just bollocks.

Pretending that these have equivalence isn't just lazy, but racist.

Treating people equally is racist?

You're wasted here, should be in politics 🙂

Have you ever aksed a ****stani if they want to go for some Indian food ?

Have you ever drunk Bailey's from a shoe?

That's just bollocks.

I'd go for UTTER BOLLOCKS.

Ah, well, until you do, I'm going to ignore anything you have to say, as you're clearly ignorant and ill-informed on the matter. Bye.

your version of accepting it by LFC is BS her is their opening line fo their statement of acceptance

It is our strongly held conviction that the Football Association and the panel it selected constructed a highly subjective case against Luis Suárez based on an accusation that was ultimately unsubstantiated.

So that is LFC accepting the decision then Excellent ….i think that proves wholeheartedly you are not blinkered here or cherry picking to put the wonderful LFC in a positive light

as for calling an opposing fan scummers ..please elf it has no need on a thread or anywhere in life

as for slagging if evra its a nice distraction i will just point out he has not been charged so he has nothing to even answer for so he does not need someone to defend his behaviour ...if he was found guilty of using language like that ,or any other man U player, I would not be defending them as I am not blinded by the shirt and can accpet that the team i support and the players occasionally do bad things.
I would not describe that statement as acceptance either here is Suarez accpeting the judgement as well

I am very upset by all the things which have been said during the last few weeks about me, all of them being very far from the truth. But above all I'm very upset at feeling so powerless whilst being accused of something which I did not, nor would not, ever do.

In my country, 'negro' is a word we use commonly, a word which doesn't show any lack of respect and is even less so a form of racist abuse. Based on this, everything which has been said so far is totally false.

I will carry out the suspension with the resignation of someone who hasn't done anything wrong and who feels extremely upset by the events.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/jan/03/liverpool-luis-suarez-statement

Racism black on white is tiny problem
Racism white on black is a huge problem
Pretending that these have equivalence isn't just lazy, but racist.

I reckon it's more to do with power/colonialism than anything else though

Occupying/governing minorities pretty much have to consider their new subjects to be of lower worth than themselves or else they'd apologise and leave, wouldn't they ?
(Addit: (not in DA's defence) they also need to apply principles such as divide and rule, clearly)
Few "white" nations have had non-whites ruling over them, at least in the recent past so there's little chance for residual tendency to view us as inferior or subservient - though they can still hate us for other reasons.

Surely many non-white societies have minorities (racial, religious, tribal or whatever) within them that are persecuted but since the recent balance of world power has been with the white folk, whenever they are in another country they are in the higher strata of that society.

Elf - you are wrong on the wendyball players - his excuse was not credible in any way which is why he was found guilty - the FA went a long way to establish the validity of it engaging language experts and the like.

Remember he had been playing in europe for a while so should know.

I'm sorry Fred, but you're wrong. Suarez is a racist. Its been proven. The evidence has been published. And liverpool FC are therefore defending racism. Its that simple.

Sigh.

What has bin 'proven', is that Suarez used racist language/racially abused Evra. something he's admitted, and bin punished for.

Once again:

"This charge is not saying Luis Suarez is a racist. It's saying, on this occasion, he used racist language.

"It doesn't make him a bad guy - he needs to learn what is acceptable."

[i]-Lord Ousman of the Kick It Out anti-racism campaign.[/i]

Suarez himself says:

"I admitted to the commission that I said a word in Spanish once, and only once.

I never, ever used this word in a derogatory way and if it offends anyone then I want to apologise for that.

I told the panel members that I will not use it again on a football pitch in England."

And:

"I will carry out the suspension with the resignation of someone who hasn't done anything wrong and who feels extremely upset by the events.

"In my country, 'negro' is a word we use commonly, a word which doesn't show any lack of respect and is even less so a form of racist abuse. Based on this, everything which has been said so far is totally false."

From this, the onions of various cultural experts, that of Evra himself, coupled with my own understanding of Spanish and South American culture, do not lead me to believe that Suarez is a 'racist', as is being screamed by Manure fayns intent on prolonging this animosity between the clubs, rather than looking at the actions of their own player and accepting his part in this sorry mess. hence, neither i nor Liverpool FC are 'defending' racism.

So shut up.

You're not actually interested in whether or not Suarez is racist or not; you just want another reason to hate.

Pathetic.

the FA went a long way to establish the validity of it engaging language experts and the like.

Did they cobblers, As soon as Suarez admitted he'd said 'negro' once, they took Evra's word over his, then went all out to make a stance against racism. Which I can understand. They had no choice really.

Several people have backed up Suarez' claim that it was not intended in a racially insulting manner.

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/spanish-slang-may-get-suarez-off-the-hook-6261881.html ]

But in Uruguay and Argentina, the use of the word negro and negrito by commentators describing Premier League players is common. Visitors to South America often find that shocking if they are unaware of the nuance but the Spanish word negro for the colour black is pronounced differently to the offensive "negro" and one has nothing to do with the other. Un hombre negro means "black man". Affixing 'ito' and 'ita' on the end of words is to express that something is smaller.

Still no word on Keane or Evra's insulting behaviour from the Manure faithful? Surprise surprise eh? 🙄

"This charge is not saying Luis Suarez is a racist. It's saying, on this occasion, he used racist language.

"It doesn't make him a bad guy - he needs to learn what is acceptable."

I think that's all that needs to be said on this.

Yeah Fred... I can just imagine the reaction of the Scousers if it had been Hernandez abusing a Liverpool player. I'm sure you'd be just as virulent in his defence. It'd just be a cultural difference? Sure! 🙄

I like Diane Abbott, she's the antidote to Boris Johnson

I can just imagine the reaction of the Scousers if it had been Hernandez abusing a Liverpool player. I'm sure you'd be just as virulent in his defence. It'd just be a cultural difference? Sure!

I'd look at the [i]facts[/i], rather than letting all the silly hatred rubbish get to me.

I used to hang around with a load of Spaniards, Colombians and other assorted Latin Americans.
They'd have all sorts of nicknames for each other. One girl who was of part African origin had the nickname of 'Negrita' (I never actually remember her real name). I was quite shocked by this until I learned that it's not the insulting thing in Spanish/SA culture that such a thing would be here. The girl herself was absolutely fine with her nickname. There was also Mono (monkey), Flaca (skinny), and various other animal names and corruptions of full names and stuff. Quite confuddling actually, as I often assumed the nickname was the person's real name.

'Sudaca' was a term used affectionately by the Spanish lot. I was told that although this was fine between friends, it was in fact a pretty bad insult.

Hearing 'Vamos Negro!' shouted in a pub during a game was quite something. Think that was the England v Colombia game in '98. There was a bit of hurried explanation to the English people there, who looked quite shocked!

But carry on wanting Suarez to be a racist. It suits your bitterness...

Bitterness?

[img] [/img]

Would that make your sentiments shandyness?

😉

Nasty stuff. 😡

Proper beer:

[img] [/img]

Northist!

So shut up.

You're not actually interested in whether or not Suarez is racist or not; you just want another reason to hate.

Pathetic.

Oh shit that aint going to go down well.
ABANDON SHIP

To follow from Elfin's comment about Spanish nicknames. My friend's Spanish girlfriend was horrified to learn that calling him a c-word was so offensive in the UK (she even apologised to the rest of us). But do you know what, she never did it again after she was told. Just saying.

My friend's Spanish girlfriend was horrified to learn that calling him a c-word was so offensive in the UK (she even apologised to the rest of us)

It's sad, but a lot of people don't have the kind of sensitivity to Cockneys that British people are brought up with.

😆

Elf - that excuse does not hold water for several reasons
1) he was clearly having a argument with him hence would not be using an affectionate name
2) he has been in Europe long enough to know that it is unacceptable
3) he claimed to have used it once but the recording showed 7 times

He used it as a deliberate racist slur, the FA found him guilty of this.

Now maybe he is not a racist but for sure he used a racist slur intentionally to upset

phil.w

Treating people equally is racist?

You're wasted here, should be in politics

If that was what I said you'd be right.

But it isn't what I said.

If you think that people ARE treated equally then you're not very bright/don't get out much.

4) He has form for being nasty from the World Cup handball.
5) If he did mean it as a friendly term he would have undoubtedly used it in training or in another match and already been told he can't say it. He ment it in a nasty way 100%.

6) It saves TJ adressing the issue of Diane Abbott's racist comment.

😉

2) he has been in Europe long enough to know that it is unacceptable

Funny that you don't apply the same standard to Diane Abbot's comments.

(UK born, Jamacian immigrant parents)

you're not very bright/don't get out much.

Oooooooooh. Get you.

*blows raspberry* 😛

Elf - that excuse does not hold water for several reasons

No; your clostomy bayg does not in any way hold water for several reasons. 😐

[img] [/img]

Black people can be racists aswell, you know 😉

I have been watching this thread with interest today and the most interesting comments by far were from the guy I car share to and from work with. He is a 50 year old black chap and he was spitting furious with DA. He was ranting about how because there are so few black MPs, the ones that are there are under increased amount of pressure to represent blacks and today he feels like black people in the public eye have taken a step (even if it is, he acknowledged, only a small one) backwards today.

He is very loud so my ears are still ringing! 😯

throughout her role in Politics she has always come out with such crap
and got away with it.
And now at last she has met her maker
So now lets see right be done.

This abbott thing seems to me as being as pointless and overblown as the fuss over that **** from top gears comments. In context both are not offensive, just stupid things to say.

Post deleted.

TJ has once again proved himself of being a complete and utter hypocrit who is totally incapable of seeing that he may, just [i][b]may[/b][/i] be wrong.

Now waiting for the "Edinburgh Defence"...

Torminalis,

I think your mate is dead right, but only because anything that anyone says these days that is even slightly off message will get pounced on and blown out of all proportion by the media, Twitterati and MTB forums.

Coyote
I simply have a different opinion to some on here and some agree with me. Its not hypocrisy its a different opinion.

I have explained why I hold that opinion. There is no need to be insulting.

teh rush to call her a racist is laughable from all these people who are usually denying racism.

I would be a hypocrite if I agreed with everyone just to keep in with the lynch mob but no - I express my opinion and gave my reasons - that is not hypocrisy that is honesty.

TJ you have not really stated why you think her comment isn't racist, just that it had been taken out of context.
Normally you are quite particular and explain your position well.
Are you a fan of ms abbots?

teh rush to defend her as not being a racist is laughable from all these people who are usually pointing out anything that could be seen or construed as racism.

Ftfy, TJ.

alba23 - Member

Is she not the one who shouted about private education. And then when she saved her mp salary/expenses money sent her son to a private school.

You can want to change a system, yet play by its rules in the meantime- that's not hypocrisy, just pragmatism. You have to live in the world as it is now, not the world you wish existed.

No compromise, even in the face of armageddon.

FFS - I have made it clear I don't like Abbott and I have explained why I don't believe it to be racist - i think she made a poor choice of words that when taken out of context looked racist.

OK Lifer, I'll rephrase, you have to live in the world as it is now [i]unless[/i] you're a psychopath with a bag on your head.

Ftfy, TJ.

Oh how clever of you. You wouldn't know racism if it stuck a mallet up its arse and bit yours flashy. I hazard you've never experienced it, along with a lot of posters on here today that have concreted their knickers, such was the mix of sand and bodily fluids. The two things uppermost in your mind are a) she's in the labour party and b) another chance to gang up and bully TeeJ. How the Jeebus he puts up with it I have no idea.

i think she made a poor choice of words that when taken out of context looked racist.

Why do you think that?
its a pretty clear cut comment to nearly everyone else. There must be a reason that you're giving her he benefit of the doubt.

Wrecker I can say no more. I can see the point she was trying to make and she expressed it poorly leaving her open to accusations of being racist. I do not believe that was her intent to make a lazy generalisation. Twitter is the wrong place to try to have that sort of discussion - nuances cannot be expressed and she used the words poorly.

Its a storm in a teacup but because of who she is its been whipped up into a media frenzy.

Its nothing to do with the benefit of the doubt its about how I see the whole exchange

Torminalis - Member
White people love playing 'divide & rule'
Negative generalisation based on nothing more than skin colour? sounds like racism to me.

hard to see past this for me really but eight pages later i see you are all still at it.

I don't think it's a case of being taken out of context personally... Looking at the full conversation, it doesn't read that way at all. Just seems like an excuse.

But I wouldn't consider it proof of racism either- Twitter's a compressed posting format, conversational, rapidfire, and off the cuff and it's pretty easy to say something stupid.

Equally, i think it's possible that in an unguarded moment, using a conversational and informal communication medium, a bit of genuine racism came out.

But I don't think it's useful to analyse everything people say and do on the assumption that it's all come out exactly as was intended and is enormously revealing- let alone in this sort of format.

I agree that when yo see the simple statement it sounds like its racist but when you look at the wider context I do not believe it is. Its just a screwup and because of who she is its been used to hammer her

A few pearls of wisdom from the great one:

For example a racist joke may be intended to be funny but still remains offensive

Of course you can be offensive without any intent.

so you think Bernard Manning telling racist jokes is not offensive because he does not mean to offend?

its clearly racist - just in the lazy unintentional way not the overt intentional way - "negative stereotyping on grounds of race, nationality or ethnic origin"

prejudiced based on race is racist

Its using "black" as an insult hence its racist

Double standards TJ? 😉

Still hilarious to see (not exclusively) white right wing MPs suddenly go all PC today. I wasn't sure if I'd woken up in a parallel universe or what. 😆

aye tis irony to see those who are not normally so easily offended and moan about those who are easily offended on behalf of others get all huffy over the absence of the word some in a twitter statement.
I think this is really the definition if PC gone mad

The constant attacking of TJ is equally unedifying [ he does deserve it sometimes but to do it all the time..tedious.

Lets just pick this one up TJ:

I agree that when yo see the simple statement it sounds like its racist but when you look at the wider context I do not believe it is. Its just a screwup and because of who she is its been used to hammer her

What did Diane say Again?

[img] ?w=240&h=107[/img]

Now, what was it you said the the past TJ?

[b]"its clearly racist [/b]- just in the lazy [b]unintentional[/b] way not the overt intentional way - "negative stereotyping on grounds of race, nationality or ethnic origin"

Double standards TJ?

All I can see is TeeJ calling racism where he sees it and not calling it where he doesn't. Jeez, if we had to call you up on double standards Zulu... You're another one who's never experienced racism either but suddenly has become politically correct today of all days. Double standards indeed. Again, like flashy, it's all about the fact that she's in the labour party and it's a chance for you guys to gang up and spend the day goading TeeJ. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.

You know zulu - you really are an offensive shit. Back to ignoring you I think,

All yo can see here is an opportunity to attack people in a particularly unpleasant manner. You are contemptible

Interesting assumption you make there Darcy - on what basis do you presume to voice the opinion that I've never experienced racism?

TJ:

You know zulu - you really are an offensive shit. Back to ignoring you I think,

All yo can see here is an opportunity to attack people in a particularly unpleasant manner. You are contemptible

😆

Where have I been either

i) offensive
ii) unpleasant

Far as I can see, all I've done is pick you on statements that you've made which are somewhat hypocritical

If that [b]really[/b] upsets you, perhaps you should pay more attention to consistency in the claims you make?

Thank you DD and Junkyard.

deadlydarcy - Member
Ftfy, TJ.
Oh how clever of you. You wouldn't know racism if it stuck a mallet up its arse and bit yours flashy. I hazard you've never experienced it, along with a lot of posters on here today that have concreted their knickers, such was the mix of sand and bodily fluids. The two things uppermost in your mind are a) she's in the labour party and b) another chance to gang up and bully TeeJ. How the Jeebus he puts up with it I have no idea.

This exactly: eight pages of it.

I'd lay a tenner if we could shake on it. Why don't you regale us of your experiences of racism against you Zulu? Apart from your obvious hurt at the tweets of a labour MP - I'll allow you your moment of anguish today. So, other than today's pain?

Again DD - on what basis do you presume to voice the opinion that I've never experienced racism?

Answer that, and I'll answer you 😉