[Closed] Diane Abbott - I'm surprised it has taken a year

ooh yeh, just think, there could be some 995ers out there just waiting to be popped

I bet one of the IT peeps could rig a search for number of posts

TandemJeremy - Member
wrecker - I believe the intent was not racist for sure and I understand the point she was trying to make. However due to her being dim, naive and not thinking before speaking it came out in such a way as to appear racist, give her opponents the chance to cry racism and unfortunately the message was lost.

I think this is probably spot on, but the point is it still doesn't alter the fact that because of the heightened leftish propagated awareness of various 'isms' she, being a black politician (there I go labelling her when I seriously don't view her as anything other than a politician)has been hoisted by her own petard so to speak.

So my point? My point is when you have either a black or a white kid in a nursery and they innocently chirp up with a remark about the colour of the other childs skin, instead of recoiling in horror and chastising the kid for mention it, we treat it the same as if it were a comment about what the other kid might be wearing.

We just need to be a bit more grown up generally and realise the planet we're on is getting smaller and we are all integrating quite nicely at personal levels, only those who would govern and wish to do so by division act the way she describes and it is not a skin colour issue, division has myriad opportunities.

From the mash;

Bill McKay, who has been talking shit since he was nine, insisted: "Out of context out of context out of context. Tory scum."

OMG 😯

TJ = Bill McKay!

no, tj it's not the point abbot was making, nor is it the point elf's making.

two points in your quote are telling. as with abbot, you don;t refer to 'some' bulgarian nurses, 'a few' bulgarian nurses but just plain old articleless bulgarian nurses. and abbot's point about the finns was,specifcally, that they shouldn't be employed. really, you're in agreement with that?

in which case you should be having a closer look at lothian's equality policies. further you note that this is a person who you state 'we' looked after, in other words accepting this was a team approach, tho reserving the right to blame a minority amongst you for any shortfall in care. because, as we all know for sure, edinburgh has not, nor is it possible that they could have, any form of prejudice except among the immigrant types.

as a corollary to such a facile example - a few years back i was working in the western when we got some albanian guy in. my whitey co-workers informed me that no-one could communicate with him, mainly it turned out, because no-one had thought to speak anything except english to him. step up the multilingual mr swiss. problem solved.

one of the signal characteristics of my career has been the diversity of the people i've got to work with. i have, and continue to believe (unlike yourself and diane abbot) that this is a strength rather than a weakness and, allowing for a few human foibles, the capacity for compassion across the caring professions is universal and not subject to any racial classification. further, a commitment to the resource that this variety provides nto only allows for better care but exposes and allows us to deal with the type of casual prejudice you're espousing.

anyway, it's been emotional, but i'm off to wash my bike.

final scores

swiss01 - sublimely correct

tj - daily mail wrong

Swiss - it is exactly that point. Its just you don't understand it.

For your information I have been involved in campaigning against racism and prejudice since the 70s

For your information I have been involved in campaigning against racism and prejudice since the 70s

Does that mean it's OK if you accidentally come out with casual racism?

For your information I have been involved in campaigning against racism and prejudice since the 70s

I think it's a shame you stopped. Maybe it's time to rethink that particular New Years resolution.

Nobody's perfect.

I'd attach more credit/attention to 40 years of campaigning rather than a few mis-judged comments.

Actions speaking louder than words etc.

Does that mean it's OK if you accidentally come out with casual racism?

It's got to be worth one of these, at least.

[img] [/img]

Actions speaking louder than words etc.

Indeed, please take this advice up!!!!!

Nobody's perfect.

I'd attach more credit/attention to 40 years of campaigning rather than a few mis-judged comments.

Actions speaking louder than words etc.

So would I, right up to the point where one (or more) of that person's comments turned in to exactly the sort of thing they had been campaigning against. Then, I would question their opinion very thoroughly in the light of that hypocrisy.

"What a Stupid Woman !!"

The Sky TV footage is brilliant of her doing a runner from the reporter after getting a convenient phone call.

For your information I have been involved in campaigning against racism and prejudice since the 70s

And TJ reaches stratospheric levels of sanctimony. What a champ.

classic personal insults in lieu of rational argument.

the fact is the issue abott raised about Finnish nurses I have seen happen. Swiss in his eagerness to score points glosses over the fact this is a real issue and accuses me of racism instead.

Has anybody considered the possibility that Abbott may just be into Minor Threat?

So would I, right up to the point where one (or more) of that person's comments turned in to exactly the sort of thing they had been campaigning against. Then, I would question their opinion very thoroughly in the light of that hypocrisy.

Maybe.

People are excellent at focussing on the one mistake you make rather than the hundreds of things you've been doing well.

And in keeping with the spirit of modern society, it's also vitally important to take every opportunity to pick on peoples failings and use these against them, especially if they're people with a public profile or influence.

Oh how we revel in laying into people when it transpires they're fallible ... of course, we never make any errors of judgement or anything, oh no, never, we're all perfection personified 🙄

the fact is the issue abott raised about Finnish nurses I have seen happen

TJ - are you telling us now that its [b]not[/b] racist to mention something that is demonstrably true?

Got another quote from you TJ - interesting one:

I find racism unacceptable and say so. Both the overt and the insidious type ( which is the one folk find hard to see)

Does Diane Abbot's comment constitute [i]insidious racism[/i] TJ?

People are excellent at focussing on the one mistake you make rather than the hundreds of things you've been doing well.

Something Ms Abbott would never do herself presumably?

Labour Finally Comment

“We disagree with Diane’s tweet. It is wrong to make sweeping generalisations about any race, creed, or culture. The Labour Party has always campaigned against such behaviour – and so has Diane Abbott.”

Time for an apology, or it won’t be the last comment they have to make about their Shadow Health Minister…

http://order-order.com/2012/01/05/labour-finally-comment/

😆

joao3v16, very valid points and yes, we are all far from perfect. However, when someone sets themselves up on a pedestal as a campaigner on such issues, they need to be even more acutely aware of the potential of falling from that pedestal by becoming the very thing they campaign against.

Nobody's perfect.

I'd attach more credit/attention to 40 years of campaigning rather than a few mis-judged comments.

Actions speaking louder than words etc.

Abbott has indeed had a good and at times very distinguished career. And certainly deserves credit for her work to fight for better opportunities for ethnic minorities and underprivileged people in her constituency. She has actually bin a pretty good MP.

BUT

She has also acted in a very selfish and self-serving manner, made the right noises politically and bin proven to be a massive hypocrite. And there are many others who've had more distinguished careers than her, but who have not sought media attention and 'celebrity' in the way she has. You've got to question her motives tbh.

If anyone's guilty of 'divide and conquer', it's her. S[i]he's[/i] the one presenting herself as a 'West Indian' (rather than 'British') person, and claiming that people of other cultures and ethnicities don't understand Black people. [i]She's[/i] the one setting apart Black people, communities and culture from that of 'British' culture, as though the two are mutually exclusive. Full of contradictions.

She picks and choses ideologies to suit her own agenda. And acts all hurt when it backfires on her.

'Blonde-haired blue-eyed'; indeed; is she not aware that many Finns are in fact from all sorts of ethnic backgrounds? As are British people?

In the same way that not all West Indians are black?

[img] [/img]

joao3v16, very valid points and yes, we are all far from perfect. However, when someone sets themselves up on a pedestal as a campaigner on such issues, they need to be even more acutely aware of the potential of falling from that pedestal by becoming the very thing they campaign against

Yep. She's been a bit of a twit, but I don't believe she's a racist.

Yep. She's been a bit of a twit, but I don't believe she's a racist.

If being a twit means that she made a racist comment, I agree. There's the problem.

She's been a bit of a twit, but I don't believe she's a racist.

The point was that her [i]statement[/i] was racist, not that she is. we all say things that are poorly worded or plain wrong but to say that a certain statement is not racist because of some other factors not included in the context of the statement is wrong.

the fact is the issue abott raised about Finnish nurses I have seen happen. Swiss in his eagerness to score points glosses over the fact this is a real issue and accuses me of racism instead.

"TandemJeremy - Member
Anyone got any comment on this?

Nursing.

I have worked with Bulgarian nurses who were simply unable to understand the partiular issues of the asian muslim chap we looked after as they had never met anyone from his position. Without any intent they treated him awfully because they lacked the background to understand his needs."

Can you explain in what way they treated him awfully? Then i may have a comment .
I was involved with a mental health group that challenged White/Western bias in mental health work and clearly in that area cultural sensitivity and understanding is essential.

In other areas cultural sensitivity can become a tolerance of and promotion of a different prejudice.

Crankboy - a total lack of [i]cultural sensitivity and understanding[/i] He was dyspahgic after a stroke. He did not like personal care being done by the female nurses ( and we had men working there) the bulgarian nurses would go in and restrain him to give him the care not only not realising why he was resisting but when told that was why refusing to aknowledge he had the right to have male care staff.

teh line manager refused to take the situation seriously. Non NHS and I left there shortly afterwards.

Its an example of staff from a background where they did not understand the culture of the people they were looking after and thus giving substandard care.

Can we all just take a moment to see how Twitter is used properly by a politician. In response to Lord Glasman's attack on Wet Ed in the Guardian this morning:

Ladies and gentlemen, please bow your heads, and pray silence for the Political Big Hitter, John Prescott:

[i]"Glasman. You know sod all about politics, economic policy, Labour or solidarity. Bugger off and go 'organise' some communities!"[/i]

now [b]THAT[/b] is a tweet! Watch and learn Dianne. Watch and learn

😆

the fact is the issue abott raised about Finnish nurses I have seen happen. Swiss in his eagerness to score points glosses over the fact this is a real issue and accuses me of racism instead.

Would a west indian, ****stani etc etc nurse be any better equipped to deal with such issues?
Would it be acceptable for someone to say as much?
The answers to both are no, of course.

"Finnish" is not a race. Neither is "****stani". Neither is "Bulgarian"
In the same way that "British" is not a race.

The nursing example is a cultural issue, not a race issue.

There is a wonderful irony that in a country whose Establishment is (apparently) infected with institutionalised racism and whose colonial history is such a source of eternal shame that we are having discussions about Bulgarian nurses tending for Asian Muslims in a State-funded (I assume) institution.

Time for a run - it might become clear after all that.

I wonder if Wallace really did call DA just as she was being interviewed by SKY?

Swiss - it is exactly that point. Its just you don't understand it.

For your information I have been involved in [b]c[/b]ampaigning [b]a[/b]gainst [b]r[/b]acism and [b]p[/b]rejudice since the 70s

TJ

CARPing on since the 1970s

(sorry, couldn't resist)

Binners - nice quote and to think we also complain that too many of our politicians are well educated. I really do need a run.

The nursing example is a cultural issue, not a race issue.

Abbott referred to 'blonde hair and blue eyes'.

Those are [i]racial[/i] characteristics.

So it [i]is[/i] a race issue.

i'm off to wash my bike.

Has it come to this?

Have things got that bad?

😥

certinly a race issue. racist or a valid point made badly is the key thing

"Finnish" is not a race. Neither is "****stani". Neither is "Bulgarian"
In the same way that "British" is not a race.

I've not stated that they are. It doesn't mean that its acceptable to grossly generalise groups according to nationality.
Muslim isn't a race either, but saying something negative about muslims as a group is inappropriate and wrong.

Accusing someone of racism is pretty easy. It is much tougher to say for certain whether someone is, or if one of their actions/statements is racist due to the whole intended-interpreted issue (a much larger debate which could get into structuralist vs post-structuralist linguistics).

It is much easier to be certain if someone, or someone's statements are stupid. Abbott's statement is clearly stupid because a) it was done on twitter where context is hard to set/see, b) she creates an us and them dichotomy with 'white people' and 'we' which reinforces the things she is objecting against. and c) she should have said "[u]some[/u] [s]white[/s] people love playing ‘divide & rule’. We should not play their game".

glitchybump

racist or a valid point

Again - are you telling us that its not racist to mention something that is demonstrably true?

Answer please TJ

"Finnish" is not a race. Neither is "****stani". Neither is "Bulgarian"
In the same way that "British" is not a race.

The nursing example is a cultural issue, not a race issue.

Depends which definition you use:

race2 ? ?[reys] Show IPA
noun
1.
a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.
2.
a population so related.
3.
Anthropology .
a.
any of the traditional divisions of humankind, the commonest being the caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negro, characterized by supposedly distinctive and universal physical characteristics: no longer in technical use.
b.
an arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, especially formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups.
c.
a human population partially isolated reproductively from other populations, whose members share a greater degree of physical and genetic similarity with one another than with other humans.
4.
a group of tribes or peoples forming an ethnic stock: the Slavic race.
5.
any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.: the Dutch race.

Good post, Elf.

I've met Ms Abbott a couple of times and was deeply unimpressed on each occasion. Self-regarding is probably the nicest thing you could say about her.

Swiss - it is exactly that point. Its just you don't understand it.

For your information I have been involved in campaigning against racism and prejudice since the 70s

FUNNY THAT AS YOU ARE THE LEAST OPEN MINDED PERSON ON THE FORUM.. TJ you make me lol

Ooh; here's another interesting one:

[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/16424487.stm ]

"Throughout the entirety of the proceedings, over the past three months, all we have heard are denials and [b]denigration[/b] of Evra.

[i][Latin dnigrre, dnigrt-, to blacken, defame : d-, de- + niger, nigr-, black; see nekw-t- in Indo-European roots.][/i]

This is from a mayn accusing Liverpool FC of being hypocritical, yet is himself using the word 'denigrate' in relation to a black player.

You couldn't make it up....

TJ see how ugly that sounds? Just for once fella, pleas

TJ is one of those people that thinks only white people can be racist...

You coon't make it up....

Might want to edit that.....

TJ is one of those people that thinks only white people can be racist...

Unfortunately, I believe this to be true.

Zulu-Eleven - Member

racist or a valid point

Again - are you telling us that its not racist to mention something that is demonstrably true?

Answer please TJ

do you actually understand what racism is?

TJ is one of those people that thinks only white people can be racist...

Unfortunately, I believe this to be true.

Not true - I have seen racism from all directions so know all races can be racist. I simply do not believe Abbot was in this instance

Might want to edit that.....

Oops! Haddunt thought of that association! 😳 😆

Just so's folk don't get the wrong end of the stick....

Coon't = could not, couldn't. It's an [i]Elfinism[/i].

I'm not a racist, honest.

[img] [/img]

Just as I am putting on running shoes I have bizarre picture of TJ saying, "Some of my best friends are racist..." 😉

Sorry it that too much ironing there?

Zulu:

Again - are you telling us that its not racist to mention something that is demonstrably true?

Answer please TJ

TJ:

do you actually understand what racism is?

[b]Yes[/b] I do thanks

Now can you answer the question please TJ - Three times I've asked now.

teamhurtmore - Member

Just as I am putting on running shoes I have bizarre picture of TJ saying, "Some of my best friends are racist..."

Tee hee - like it.

Yes I do thanks

well in that case the answer is obvious.

oh well done elf it is far worse to use the word denigrate [ i did not know the etimology tbh] than say negro 10 times to someones face whilst nipping them to calm the situation down...LFC is your version of Abbot and her son going to private school....you just want to defend LFC no matter what...perhaps we should assume it is aaproblem with Sarth London type coknee charrcters or sumthink 🙄

This is from a mayn accusing Liverpool FC of being hypocritical, yet is himself using the word 'denigrate' in relation to a black player.

You coon't make it up.

waht you defending a man who said the n word to someone over and over again because he wears the shirt of the club you support ....sadlly elf we have no need to make this up ....you defend him if you want but reallly you would not be doing this had Keane done it to barnes would you ...shameful from you and Suarez

from Zulu

TJ
you said I had said tories are racist. I did not.
TJ
The tory party clearly has racist elements in it
threads passim
HOWZAT!

The tory party has some pro Europeans in it

The tory party is pro European

your conclusion does not follow note the use of the word some - obvioulsy it suggest some are not

oh, Its obvious it is TJ? Clearly not to me, nor I would imagine a few pwople on here.

are you telling us that its not racist to mention something that is demonstrably true?

Simple question that I'm now asking you for the fourth time to give a simple straight answer to

Well I've learnt something useful from this thread - from Fred of all people (the etymology of "denigrate")

So, could someone summarise for me? Which groups of racist apologists is winning?

And the answer you are going to get is if you understand what racism is the answer would be obvious to you 🙂

Which groups of racist apologists is winning?

Kenny Dalglish? No?

Which groups of racist apologists is winning?

What's the collective noun for a groups of racist apologists?

Which groups of racist apologists is winning?

It's unclear. It's hardly black and white now is it?

Stoner - go to the back of the class NOW!

I've lost count of the times Jeremy has thrown "Racist" around on here, bangs on about the undercurrent of prejudice only he can detect.

And then along comes a brown person making derogatory generalisations on the basis of skin colour and "Oh no! Not racist!" The classic gymnastic dilemma of the Guardian reading moral-relativist.

wrecker - Member

You coon't make it up....

Might want to edit that.....

I did a little lol at that...! 🙂

TJ should we really protect someones cultural right to be sexist?

I accept and appreciate that personal care is an emotive issue but Dianne Abbott's comments about Finnish nurses were clearly racist and her white people tweet is too. She defines people by skin colour and country of origin and makes value judgements based on that . I'm sure that you will find culturally sensitive Bulgarians and Finns Just as you will find culturally insensitive M.P.s who will try and use race to promote or indeed define their career.

Her naive stupidity is no doubt a factor in her racism but they are not an alternative explanation for her comments. The same is true of the members of the EDL i have met, they are Racist in part because they are badly educated and stupid.

Stoner - Member
Which groups of racist apologists is winning?
It's unclear. It's hardly black and white now is it?

Very drole!!

How can a racist apologist be white. There can only be one winner!?!

Linking to above:

DA => racist comment => stupid, mis-understood, out of context ? =>racist?
Suarez => racist comment =>stupid, mis-understood, out of context? => racist?

Which is which?

mcboo - If I thought she was being racist I would say so. I don't believe she is. thats all.

As for the accusation - find an example of me having

thrown "Racist" around on here

True to a very slight extent mcboo since TJ has often been quite justified in wailing but I can't help but feel that some think that by pointing out that conflict in TJ's position they somehow make their own racist views acceptable.

*waits disappointingly for Elfin to take the King Kenny, Racist apologist bait*

Come on Fred, you know you want too 😉

oh well done elf it is far worse to use the word denigrate [ i did not know the etimology tbh] than say negro 10 times to someones face whilst nipping them to calm the situation down...LFC is your version of Abbot and her son going to private school....you just want to defend LFC no matter what...perhaps we should assume it is aaproblem with Sarth London type coknee charrcters or sumthink

Oh it's [i]ten[/i] times now is it? Funny, cos the official report claimed Evra had said it was only [i]seven[/i], but there you go eh. 🙄 (Btw Suarez [i]admitted[/i] to saying it only once)

And how exactly am I 'defending' Liverpool FC? I happen to agree with their stance, as do many others, including several black players. Having read loads of stuff about the case, including the official report, my own conclusion (supported by my albeit limited knowledge of Spanish and South American culture which I've gained from hanging around people from those places) is that Suarez said something that was out of order in the context of the situation, but which he did not himself understand was as bad as it is perceived to be in the country in which he lives and works. Liverpool FC and Suarez have accepted the punishment handed out.

Now I spose you're going to call for the punishment of Evra for using a culturally insulting term (sudaca- a highly derogatory term especially in the context of the incident) first, before Suarez had said anything to him?

No, thought not...

crankboy - Member

TJ should we really protect someones cultural right to be sexist?

Oh oh oh - close that can of works quickly! In the case of the chap in question - yes undeniably IMO. Yo would give an old lady the right to refuse care from a man wouldn't yo? it was demeaning to him to receive care from a woman

the one I have real issues with is the racist old people I look after that refuse care from black staff. thats difficult especially when they have demantia

And then along comes a brown person making derogatory generalisations on the basis of skin colour and "Oh no! Not racist!" The classic gymnastic dilemma of the Guardian reading moral-relativist.

Apparently the only thing that can make your comments not racist is an LFC shirt 😉

Liverpool FC and Suarez have accepted the punishment handed out.

Could you define 'accepted' for me? Have you read the statement they issued? Seriously? That's 'accepted' is it?

Its tediously predictable scouse persecution complex I'm afraid Fred. But in this casre they're unquestioningly defending racism.

Whatever your opinions Fred, Dalglish is doing himself and Liverpool no favours whatsoever with this stance. Everyone else just sees it as defending racism. Mainly because that's exactly what it is

Can we not just hand Diane Abbott an eight match ban and be done with this thread?

TJ - I've asked you repeatedly to clarify, on the basis of statements you've made on here, whether you are telling us that its not racist to mention something that is demonstrably true?

its a simple and reasonable question - its irrelevant whether its obvious, as I am asking [b] your[/b] position on the issue

I am lost as to why you would be so incredibly evasive about answering this simple, reasonable question.

Have you ever aksed a ****stani if they want to go for some Indian food ?

crankboy - Member
TJ should we really protect someones cultural right to be sexist?

TandemJeremy - Member
in the case of the chap in question - yes undeniably, it was demeaning to him to receive care from a woman

the one I have real issues with is the racist old people I look after that refuse care from black staff.

can you really not see the double standards in your position here TJ?

Dianne Abbott's comments about Finnish nurses were clearly racist and her white people tweet is too. She defines people by skin colour and country of origin and makes value judgements based on that . I'm sure that you will find culturally sensitive Bulgarians and Finns Just as you will find culturally insensitive M.P.s who will try and use race to promote or indeed define their career.

Her naive stupidity is no doubt a factor in her racism but they are not an alternative explanation for her comments.

In true STW fashion, I haven't read any of the previous pages 😉 but I agree with this entirely. You can't look for meaning in Diane Abbott's posts (racist or anti-racist) because she's fantastically dim. Really thick. She has absolutely no idea what she's going on about at any given minute. I remember her appearing on C4 news saying that the Austrian elections should have been cancelled and rerun because Jorg Haider's party won a lot of seats.

She must be great at behind-the-scenes politicking but FMOB she hasn't a scooby in public.

As for the accusation - find an example of me having

thrown "Racist" around on here

oh look

TandemJeremy - Member
If you cannot understand then its impossible for me to tell you

The whole tone and post is racist - thinly disguised

Phil - indeed its a very difficult situation to deal with and the right answers are hard to find. Thats why I mentioned it.

The old spinster and the right not to have a man bathing her seems right. the racist old git refusing to have a black nurse bathing him does not. what is the moral difference - hard to see.

I deal with it on a pragmatic case by case basis.