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currently walking the dogs listening aghast to another Tory minister minimising a real nasty attack on a woman by a privileged gammon.
firstly how the hell is it okay to say this stuff and then claim it’s not racist or misogynistic? And how do people look their children in the eye after defending it? Absolutely scunnered with these people and the shit they enable to be said ( see also 30p yesterday!) we’ve allowed them to set the agenda where if you’re a decent person attempting to treat people with respect you’re some kind of spineless greetin faced numpty.
secondly, all politics aside, how on earth does that woman ( and all the others!) keep going in the face of this constant shit? Why is nothing changing, and why are we giving these people a platform for hate?
sorry, rant over
Anyone?
Tory minister minimising a real nasty attack on a woman by a privileged gammon.
he has 10 million reasons 😕
Yes she's been torn apart by many in the media - and made fun of just because she's made the odd cock-up like everyone else.
It's disgusting. Seems to me some forms of racism are palatable because you can link it with poor judgement from the said person. And that poor judgement is often hugely exacerbated for the same reasons.
(Low priority comment but do all thread titles about political figures have to have exclamation marks the days?)
all politics aside, how on earth does that woman ( and all the others!) keep going in the face of this constant shit?
TBH that is a question that I have repeatedly asked myself about Diane Abbot.
The racist and misogynist abuse which we hear about on the news concerning Diane Abbott will only be the tip of the iceberg.
The only reason the latest example has made the headlines is because the perpetrator was the Tory Party's most generous donor last year, otherwise we would not have heard about it.
Tories=evil is anyone still suprised?
Tories=evil is anyone still surprised?
The whole of the Sunak thread.
Every 15 mins.
But in their defence I guess they keep doing ridiculous things.
I’ve just been reading the Guardian article about this”man” who is being defended who has donated ten million to the tories in the last year. His firm is responsible for looking after all our medical information amongst other things, I wouldn’t trust him and we’ll probably have another horizon type scandal in years to come when we find he’s been selling off our confidential information. As for the hate that’s spreading, it’s the same tactic of divide and rule that has been used for hundreds of years, whilst we’re arguing amongst ourselves we’re not scrutinising what is really going on. The “take our country back” that 30p talks about is just a hollow concept that people can rally round as a slogan with our any meaning apart from the underlying message of hatred - take it back from “them”. In reality the Government has had very little control of “our” country since the Thatcher years when state operated companies were sold off to the highest bidders. This was followed by major investment (often accompanied by British passports) by lots of foreign powers. Liverpool - Isle of Man, Sheffield - Chinese, London - Russia/Saudi and many football clubs to dodgy middle east regimes - just a few examples. Our country, what is it?
Perhaps as a way to counter the hate whenever and wherever you encounter it in life, perhaps start with the principle “be nice say hi!”?
This gives more info
I really hope there's some sort of "bringing the government into disrepute" clause* in those £400million NHS IT contracts.
*there probably isn't
Cant say I have much sympathy for an antisemite and racist
Wonder if the "should be shot" comment should get his collar felt.
Hasn't he got the sort of face you would just love to punch.
It's about time Starmer and the Labour Party got a spine and stopped beingdragged relentlessly to the right as the Tories get more and more extreem. Basicaly I view the Tory party as a racist and facist party now, opposed by a bunch of privileged tossers who are shortly going to be dumped with sorting out the mess and then get blamed when it goes pear shaped.
I am quite glad I am old and have no children.
This gives more info
Thanks.
Is it that hard to put a link in the OP?
Wonder if the “should be shot” comment should get his collar felt.
That was my immediate thought too. The stuff about black women was horrible, but with a couple of MPs having been murdered already...
This Hester t0sspot sounds like a nightmare to work for....
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/mar/11/strict-rules-at-tory-donor-frank-hester-firm-tpp
"When asked questions in meetings, hands should be raised “clearly and not in a half-hearted manner”, with this straight arm raising known informally within the company as “Phoenix hands”."
The right wing version of "jazz hands?"
(Low priority comment but do all thread titles about political figures have to have exclamation marks the days?)
Pretty sure it was originated by the poster of the Trump thread to take the pee out of his constant use of caps and exclamation marks.
Rather childishly, it sort of amuses me, it also acts as a handy warning that a thread that follows this convention might be a bit politically heavy.
Yeah! it's a MrWoppit! legacy!
It's a non story, he can't possibly be racist as he's been to Jamaica
tenburnerFull Member
Cant say I have much sympathy for an antisemite and racist
Classy comment
actually, cba
Deleted in response to the deletion of another post.
ernielynch
Full Member
Yeah! it’s a MrWoppit! legacy!
I just hope he is still out there, bringing hope and a bit off levity to niche MTB forums! 🫡
Yeah but he made his wife go.
His firm is responsible for looking after all our medical information amongst other things,
Not all of it. Mostly what TPP does is provide a management system for patent information and data for GPs, it's one of a couple of major providers that GPs in this country use, the other being EmisWeb, and there's a couple of others. But I don't suppose for a minute that he has personal access to your medical record.
“When asked questions in meetings, hands should be raised “clearly and not in a half-hearted manner”, with this straight arm raising known informally within the company as “Phoenix hands”
For special points of order, the raised arm should be the right one, and at 45 degrees forward.
Cant say I have much sympathy for an antisemite and racist
While you don't have sympathy for Abbott's views on other matters (and also aware that you have contributed to derailment of other threads into Israel vs Palestine already) surely you can't stand by this man's comments?
Hasn’t he got the sort of face you would just love to punch.
While I agree he doesn't sound like a particularly great person, isn't this just a variation of what he's said about Diane Abbott? I think we could all reflect on the words we choose to use about people who political views don't align with our own?
Imagine he didn’t like a white acquaintance of his and commented that this person made him want to hate all white people. Clearly a racist comment and it’s ridiculous trying to dress it up as anything else.
EDIT: I've deleted that. He's racist. Full stop.
On Diane Abbot... in her prime she was a formidable politician. I really wish she'd had the chance to play a role in frontline politics, preferably in government, when she was younger. The stuff she has had to deal with in her life, and is still thrown at her, is utterly depressing. That it's still coming from people who have everything they need in life, such as this millionaire businessmen, reflects poorly on the UK as a whole, and the Conservative party in particular... especially as Tory politicians come forward to excuse him, or choose to keep quiet about him.
According to Tory minister Mel Stride: "I don't think what he was saying was a gender-based or a race-based comment, but it was clearly inappropriate"
So saying that Diane Abbott makes him want to hate all black women is "inappropriate" but not, apparently, a gender based or race based comment.
Sometimes you have to admire senior politicians ability to talk complete bollocks and still maintain a straight face, it can't be easy.
Dianne Abbott, voted in as MP for 40 years in same constituency who had whip suspended last year after echoing Whoopi Goldberg's assertion that Jewish people can't experience racism, only prejudice, because they're just a variety of white person? That Dianne Abbott?
EDIT: I’ve deleted that. He’s racist. Full stop.
I don't doubt that he is, But his closing remark; "I just want to shoot her", or "I think she should be shot" or whatever abhorrent variation it was, is the sort of remark (like; a face you just want to punch) that has got our public political discourse to the point it is now. You only have to look at the US were Democrat has become a by-word for child-blood drinking paedophile in some people's minds and at that point you don't have to listen to them or agree anything with them, becasue why would you? They're obviously monsters and should be... Shot? punched in the face?
I genuinely admire Diane Abbot, I've met her and she's bloody smart and funny, and we should have more politician like her, but all politicians will be put off if we talk about punching them or shooting them, or any of that shit.
Wise words from Keir Starmer:
"And Diane has been a trailblazer, she has paved the way for others, she's probably faced more abuse than any other politician over the years on a sustained basis.
"And I'm sorry, this apology this morning that is pretending that what was said wasn't racist or anything to do with the fact she's a woman, I don't buy that I'm afraid, and I think that it's time the Tory Party called it out and returned the money."
I genuinely admire Diane Abbot, I’ve met her and she’s bloody smart and funny,
think I must have seen a different Dianne Abbott on TV, the one that adopts the constantly condescending tone and attitude when talking to people and makes a fair number of rascist comments herself.
Is it some sort of virtue signalling to admire her ?
Apparently, he can't be racist because his parents were Irish.
I think if he wasn't the sole shareholder of TPP he'd be having an uncomfortable discussion with the board this morning about whether it was the sort of attention they wanted.
Interesting questions on criminality with the "should be shot" reference. Certainly, others have at least been interviewed for making those sort of comments in public. In the context of a private meeting where nobody believes they were being encouraged to shoot her it might not be illegal (just as Bruce's comment about him having a face you would like to punch is probably not criminal), but it doesn't say much for the company if those comments were made 4 years ago across multiple meetings and its only coming out now. Either everyone there thought it was OK, were too scared to speak up, or enjoy their trips on his yacht (all declared to the tax man I am sure!) as little bribes for tolerating him.
What confuses me, is I have done some gov work in the past (orders of magnitude less in value than this) and had to jump through a million screening hoops to show that nobody in the entire organisation could be accused of bribing the government and then make ongoing commitments to declare any conflict of interest but he's able to pay £10M to the politicians in power.
It doesn't really matter what you think about Dianne Abbot, after what happened to Jo Cox and David Amess you shouldn't be taking money off the kind of person who flippantly refers to wanting to shoot an MP, full stop.
I genuinely admire Diane Abbot, I’ve met her...
One incident long ago particularly won my respect for Diane Abbott. It was in the run-up to the war in Iraq, about the time that Robin Cook resigned as Foreign Secretary and huge anti-war protests were taking place.
As we approached the assembly point in Central London for a particularly big demo I saw Dianne Abbott walking in front of me totally alone among the crowd and in deep conversation with someone on her mobile phone.
At that time she would not have been quite as recognisable as she probably is today. What impressed me was that she wasn't there because she was a speaker at the rally it was simply because she was just another ordinary concerned citizen opposed to a senseless and bloody war.
I didn't notice any other politicians walking with the crowds on that day, and it was a sober reminder that not all politicians are the same.
secondly, all politics aside, how on earth does that woman ( and all the others!) keep going in the face of this constant shit?
It's insane. I can't find the link now, but there was a study of online abuse directed at MPs, and in the end they had to exclude Diane Abbott because she got so much abuse, she distorted the figures.
Here's a different one by Amnesty which found in 2017 she got pretty much the same amount of abuse online as every other female MP put together.
It's a shame she comes out with so much bollocks these days because she really did blaze a trail. MrsDoris went to secondary in mid-80s Hackney. It was pretty crappy. They were only entered for about 6 or 7 O-levels because they weren't really expected to succeed in life. But one day they had a visit from Diane Abbott, a newly elected black female MP (the school was about 70% ppl of colour) and walking proof that black women really could do well. It was hugely inspirational to the kids at the time, many of whose aspirations didn't stretch much further than getting pregnant and getting a council flat.
I always try to think of that, instead of dismissing her as a bell, when I hear the latest dubious comment she's come out with.
While you don’t have sympathy for Abbott’s views on other matters (and also aware that you have contributed to derailment of other threads into Israel vs Palestine already) surely you can’t stand by this man’s comments?
I don't stand by his comments, but I also don't really care for Diane Abbot, someone who stirs up hatred well enough herself.
If you see the contribution of people who don't share your point of view to a discussion as 'derailment', perhaps a chat forum isn't the place for you
Luckily, the governents Minister for Women and Equalities, Kemi Badenoch, is also a woman of colour so I'm sure she'll be very vocal in the defence of Dianne Abbot and lead the way in the condemnation of Frank Hestor and advocate the money being returned, no?
She must have done so already, surely?
So can we just clarify, are some of you saying that his comments are acceptable because DA has made some problematic remarks herself?
Abbot is an enigma, she was a genuine trailblazer but in recent years has almost turned into a Spitting Image style caricature of her former self
She's had so much abuse over the years I fear for her mental state. Nobody should ever have to deal with the crap she's had to endure
So saying that Diane Abbott makes him want to hate all black women is “inappropriate” but not, apparently, a gender based or race based comment.
Sometimes you have to admire senior politicians ability to talk complete bollocks and still maintain a straight face, it can’t be easy.
It's another one of those "I think we can all agree it was wrong" scenarios where the original comment is never repeated...
Tory donor's words sadly appeal to a lot of people.
I was listening to the Same Defence of the indefensible his morning.
I really don't know how they can claim it had nothing to do with Race or Gender when he specifically referred to her race and gender. Pricks.
The request for the Tories to hand back donations misses the point in some ways, even if they hand it all back they're still a party run by and for Bastards, and everyone knows it. The money would find it's way back to them via an appropriately laundered route, the real question should be why does someone with such views want to chip into the Tory coffers in the first place?
What the opposition should really be asked for is for them to acknowledge the bigotry and hate at work in those comments, agree that such people are not suitable to have input to a major political party (especially one in government) and make a pledge that his £10m (or any other sum of money) will no longer buy him the influence or special access it was clearly intended to...
Obviously they can't/won't actually do that, Tories love money and are happy to play whatever dog whistles people with cash ask them to.
To be fair to him, he's now given us all an insight into the proportions required for public sector contracts
10 million donation = 400 million in business
Quite the investment
But I don’t suppose for a minute that he has personal access to your medical record.
He won't have, but I'll guarantee that if he wanted to he could.
Kwasi "the crash meister" Kwarteng thinks it's both racist and sexist.
First half of the News Agents podcast covers this.... Hard to disagree with the presenters take on it.
If you see the contribution of people who don’t share your point of view to a discussion as ‘derailment’, perhaps a chat forum isn’t the place for you
No, the derailment is the risk of dragging it off to another Israel vs Palestine argument which we all know is a sure fire way to kill any thread on here.
As long as you're not going to do that I'm happy to discuss the merits of 'someone said some bad things so forfeit any right to not have people threaten to shoot them' - which you said you had little sympathy for.
"Luckily, the governents Minister for Women and Equalities, Kemi Badenoch, is also a woman of colour so I’m sure she’ll be very vocal in the defence of Dianne Abbot and lead the way in the condemnation of Frank Hestor and advocate the money being returned, no?
She must have done so already, surely?"
From Twitter/ X
"Abbott and I disagree on a lot. But the idea of linking criticism of her, to being a black woman is appalling."
“It’s never acceptable to conflate someone’s views with the colour of their skin.”
Seems like your wish is her command eh binners? She's keeping the bag Though!
EDIT: Apparently it was her comments that pushed Sunak into finally calling it racist too. Just who is the real leader of the Conservative Party these days???
Just who is the real leader of the Conservative Party these days???
I think we only formally exclude Sunak himself which must be a bit of a concern for him! I think of I'd just walk, I mean, he's hugely wealthy and married into an even wealthier family. Trott off, "need to spend time with wife and family etc etc" and you off to SoCal and let the warring factions fight it out, Hunger Games style or something.
I am so glad that many public figures and popular social media are supporting Abbot on this. I haven't agreed with her on many things, and she made some massive faux pas at times, some can be explained through illness, for which she was treated very unfairly, but she has always been a shoes on the ground politician, as such is very vulnerable, and I think for that this is incredibly dangerous. I just hope that this makes people wake up and it starts the end to this "culture war" nonsense on all sides.
Its just grim that Badenoch grabs the easy points, so Sunak then tries to show some leadership after spending all day avoiding it.
Just who is the real leader of the Conservative Party these days???
Gove. Soon to be in leader of the opposition. And then who knows!
This Hester clown has had a pop at the Indians too so Sunak and his wider family can take it personally now. Ooooh decisions…
The Conservative party’s biggest donor asked if there was “no room for the Indians” and suggested staff climb on a train roof during a crowded meeting, before saying he made “a lot of jokes about racism”.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/mar/12/tory-donor-frank-hester-no-room-for-the-indians
Gove. Soon to be in leader of the opposition. And then who knows!
I reckon Liz might try and have another go as Tory leader. I mean, in her head she was bloody amazing. The best ever. Everyone else just held on and hit the brakes but she thought it was fantastic playing monopoly with a G7 country! Fun times!
Why are there so many people dead set on holding into this poisoned chalice? It went to shit in 2016 and it was only ever going to get worse.
Yet there they go, all fighting to be the last to wear the rusting crown as Rome burns down around them. It's madness.
lols yes truss; "And then I pulled all the spiders legs off and it was still trying to live!! ha ha ha"
Maybe Cameron will have a go? They need a non entity whilst in opposition like William Hague or Iain Duncan Smith or Michael Howard, and then when in 8 years time they think they might have a chance the likes of Badenoch will pop out into daylight again. Truss has missed that boat, thankfully. The only person that can reverse that now is Johnson - obvs an horrific thought... Anyway this Hester thing is a massive nail in the coffin
I can't believe the Government is giving this company any contracts at all. As Hester is the only director and sole shareholder the whole company and its software products are extremely vulnerable if anything happens to him - surely the Government did a risk analysis before giving him millions of £s.
I also can't believe anyone in a position of authority and influence would ever consider suggesting shooting an MP - surely he is aware that Jo Cox MP was killed by a gunshot in a town very close to Leeds where he is based. Assuming he is a member of the Conservative Party will his outrageous comments lead to his expulsion, or will Sunak find some slippery excuse to absolve him and keep the £10 million?
So according to everyone in the Tory party sent out to bat in the media today, it was wrong but it wasn’t racist
Now Rishi has come out and said it is actually racist
No shit Sherlock!
Will they be giving the 10 mil back?
Of course not.
So whatever they say is meaningless
They’re still happy to take the money of someone who’s openly racist. He could go on live telly and batter some kittens to death with a cricket bat and they’d still happily take his money
she has always been a shoes on the ground politician
Oof.
Assuming he is a member of the Conservative Party will his outrageous comments lead to his expulsion, or will Sunak find some slippery excuse to absolve him and keep the £10 million?
I am not sure how it works but I don't think that being a member of the Conservative Party is quite like being a member of other parties.
I don't think that you hold an actual membership card.
I believe that you join your local Conservative Association and I don't know whether the party leader actually has the authority to expel members from it.
If anyone knows I would be interested, it's long been a mystery to me how Tory Party membership structures actual work.
ElShalimo
Full MemberAbbot is an enigma, she was a genuine trailblazer but in recent years has almost turned into a Spitting Image style caricature of her former self
No enigma, she's just been driven completely into the ground, after 40 years of doing her best while being completely drowned in hate. Who can say they'd have done better? I wouldn't have lasted a minute, I hope I never criticise someone for breaking under strain like that.
No, the derailment is the risk of dragging it off to another Israel vs Palestine argument which we all know is a sure fire way to kill any thread on here.
As long as you’re not going to do that I’m happy to discuss the merits of ‘someone said some bad things so forfeit any right to not have people threaten to shoot them’ – which you said you had little sympathy for.
If you so desperately dont want to talk about Israel & Palestine, why do you keep mentioning it? I haven't mentioned it.... Is it all you ever think about?
It's certainly on my mind a lot.
When someone starts saying antisemite it's always useful to check if they mean 'I hate the Jews' antisemitism or 'I disagree with views of the Israeli government and the actions of the IDF' antisemitism.
So which kind of antisemite is she?
And while we're at it, what kind of racist is she? Did she call someone a gammon once?
So which kind of antisemite is she?
I think she suggested that while the Traveller community, Jews and Irish can experience prejudice, it's different to racism (somehow, that she didn't really explain), and likened their experience to being similar to that of redheads. She went on in her letter [to the Guardian] to make a few other ill through-out comments that were pretty objectionable. She apologised afterwards I think, but it seemed to me to be one of those letters you perhaps write in the heat of the moment, and then give yourself 24 hours to think about. Only she didn't, it would appear. It was all the excuse Starmer needed to move against her though, which makes his comments about her seem a bit disingenuous at the very least.
Tomiwa Owolade claims that Irish, Jewish and Traveller people all suffer from “racism” (“Racism in Britain is not a black and white issue. It’s far more complicated”, Comment). They undoubtedly experience prejudice. This is similar to racism and the two words are often used as if they are interchangeable
It is true that many types of white people with points of difference, such as redheads, can experience this prejudice. But they are not all their lives subject to racism. In pre-civil rights America, Irish people, Jewish people and Travellers were not required to sit at the back of the bus. In apartheid South Africa, these groups were allowed to vote. And at the height of slavery, there were no white-seeming people manacled on the slave ships.
That was the 'letter'. Basically suggesting that non white people get racism in a different way as it is easier to segregate and spot a non-white person than say an Irish person. Bit clumsy but doesn't shout anti-semitic to me.
Hang on, is prejudice based on race not always racism? I just got a bit confused.
@kerley yeah, basically saying racism is a prejudice based on appearance rather than origin or religion. Really rather obvious tbh but there are those that will twist it to suit their needs.
Issue was obviously raised during PMQ's by Kier Starmer. It's a fairly damning indictment of the utter shitshow that our parliamentary system is, that after each time Starmer spoke, Diane Abbott stood up to try and get an intervention, and each time she was ignored. That is despite Hoyle clearly looking directly towards her on at least one of the occasions. He made racist and sexist comments about her, and called for het to be shot. Sunak tried to equate that with Angela Rayner calling Tories 'scum'. I genuinely can't wait to see these ****s out on their arses post GE.
Hang on, is prejudice based on race not always racism? I just got a bit confused.
That often gets confused with behaviour of certain groups within society. Travellers being the prime example, most peoples hostility towards this group stems from perceptions around their behaviour and lifestyle, perceptions which are often reinforced by direct experience. Many people don't necessarily think of travellers ethnic heritage. Most racism is directly based on the fact other people look different and is not based on any characteristic the individual being abused has any control over.
Dianne Abbott fell into the trap of trying to stratify racism suggesting that what some groups suffer more than others which may be true but in our current climate is not an acceptable thing to say.
Edit, in a nutshell this
basically saying racism is a prejudice based on appearance rather than origin or religion
Why are labour demanding the money be paid back rather than donated to an anti-racism charity?
In case Hester switches to Labour and gives them the money?
most peoples hostility towards this group stems from perceptions around their behaviour and lifestyle, perceptions which are often reinforced by direct experience.
How is that different from anti-Black bigots' perceptions of Black people's behaviour and lifestyle, perceptions which are often reinforced by direct experience (experiences that have been filtered through their own prejudice)?