[Closed] Depression and work issues advice/vent/ramble

They've broken a few laws there, you can't just guve someone a written warning. There has ro be a disciplinary investigation meeting, and beforehand they need to give you good notice so you can counter argue, suggest compromise etc.

Check the ACAS website. You could put in a grievance that they've flouted the process and have the warning overthrown on that basis.

They have a duty of care to work with you, not against you. Throwing warnings at you with nothing constructive to offer is basically bullying.

For example informally raising performance concerns and agreeing an improvement plan that's realistic, that both parties feel is achievable.

It's setting you up to fail if They expect improvements but don't discuss what they specifically want to see, and your unaware, and just give you a warning after the fact.

They've broken a few laws there, you can't just guve someone a written warning.

This. Not to panic you at all but it does smell a bit like being managed out.

Get some legal advice but more importantly, get some medical help re your depression.

As someone who has had to deal with that god-awful illness at various points in my life, that is your priority.

As said, your employer has probably skipped a few steps in your performance management process, particularly as this relates to a known medical condition and their need to make "reasonable adjustments". It would be reasonable to ask your employer for counselling / support. Get a copy of your employer policy on performance management to make sure they stick to it. Keep written records of previous and future conversations / all correspondence - you might need it if they attempt to dismiss you as a consequence of this process and you seek redress through a tribunal. Most importantly, look after your health - take some time off if you feel you need it and your doctor may sign you off. Go down the grievance procedure first before consulting solicitors. I went through this process about 12 years ago as a consequence of a stress-related illness - I was signed-off for 9 months and they were about to stop my sick pay. Only the threat of suing them for constructive dismissal forced them to take action.

As above really. I was diagnosed with anxiety and depression last year, a lot of which was work related. I suspect that the civil service are more supportive than other employers, but after 3 months off, some time for medication to kick in and some counseling from the workplace support people, I was able to go back. They've gone by the book with workplace adjustments to get me back up to speed, and they've put me through the attendance management process by the book but not given me any warnings.

I'm hoping to come off the meds in a month or two, which may be interesting. Ask me again how it's going in the summer!

Have got the feeling that I might be being managed out. Hard to tell given my current state of mind.

No employee performance policy or grievance procedure. Other than employee must devote all efforts to good of the company. I think.

Also have they not given me guidance by saying need to improve accuracy and speed of work?

It's hard trying to sort my head out, focus on work to deal with the issues, make plans for alternative employment, implications for moetgage and general family life. I seem to be coping then something just hits me and its a drudge again. They have said they want a happy employee and are all here to support me. They also say tgey want the best person for the role. Things I've put in place to help me have come from only me. Other rhan regular meetings I feel totally in the wilderness.

Bugger :-/

Best of luck coming off the meds. I thought it was good for me but with hindsight was not the right time.

Make sure enough people know you are coming off them.

Sorry for the slight deviation, kabih. Although I guess it relates to your situation.

I'm hoping to come off the meds in a month or two, which may be interesting.

Why? If they are helping, is there a long term risk of staying on them?

Also have they not given me guidance by saying need to improve accuracy and speed of work?

Kind of but it should be the frame of specific metrics and measurement.. we want to see x % accuracy improvement over x months, and if agreeable and achievable, discuss that there would be a further meeting if you fail without good reason, an investigation possibly leading to a disciplinary hearing.

The way they sound like they've gone about it seems vague and unfair, and certainly in breach of disciplinary guidelines. Victimisation basically, especially given that you are a going though a tough time that you've diligently informed them of.

Write to them to ask for the information / policy guidance in writing - emphasise that your medical condition means you sometimes find it difficult to concentrate and remember things.

Even if they feel you are being managed out, they have to follow a specific process - because of your existing medical condition it would be pretty silly to try and ignore this. Might be worth playing 'dumb' and keep letting them dig themselves a big hole depending on how you want to play it?

Most importantly, what do you want from this - keep your job or get redundancy / settlement agreement?

Yeh, write to them as above, perhaps in the form of an appeal against the warning, before going full grievance.

They did advise you you can appeal the warning in writing,right, and what time frame you have to appeal?

If not that's another broken rule..

I suspect that the civil service are more supportive than other employers

Unless it's HMP Insertnamehere. Our 'management' seem more intent on issuing warnings for sickness than anything else.

I was informed of being able to appeal. At the time I just wanted to not have dismissal on my record so said I wanted to work with them to sort it etc.

There was no time frame for appeal although I vuess too much time has passed.

Not sure what outcome just to be myslef again doing a job I e joy and feel I'm good at. I think that ztaying where I am I'll always feel that I've got this issue hanging over me or lurki g and am not really happy there, my confidence is now deally low which is a bit of a hinderance for new job searching.

There's lot's of good advice available via the ACAS website as recommended as above, there was even a Freephone number where you could speak to an advisor.

IME, (within the organisation I work for) prior to a disciplinary hearing there must be an investigation to establish the facts.
You should then be advised in writing, not less than 48 hours in advance of the hearing, with copies of any written evidence to be used in the hearing supplied to you.
The hearing will then be carried out by a person not involved with the investigation.

Failure to follow the above is breaking the employment laws as I understand it.

Good luck

I'm being careful not to spout too much of my own problems, but I had a situation in 2013 with work placed harassment/bullying whilst realising my own anxiety depression. This was a local authority who had policies etc... There inaction was too detrimental I ended up leaving. The guy causing the issues left under favourable conditions some months later.

To put it into context, despite many many people best interests, and those who really don't give a damn, PROPER support at work for mental health is a long way coming. It's not an easy thing to come to terms with, but in many tangible ways for me, working was 'costing' me more than it yielded. Look after yourself, first and foremost...

Happy to talk about specifics if you want to email...

Cheers for the advice thus far.

Not sure if grievance line is good idea at present. As i don't really want to make the situation worse.

Think that I've decided I want to move on but not sure how long I can stay where I am. Truing to manage depression and "prooving myself"

Might wait until the improvement peroid is up. Then see where things are, although don't know what the deal is with a new job and written warnings etc.

Apart from the pre-existing issues like depression and being on meds, many points in the OP are very familiar to me, because I went through the same thing last year, aspects of my performance being raised and criticised at performance reviews, and constant questioning about why there were errors, and what steps were being made to avoid them in future, etc, when there hadn't been any issues real issues previously; the main thing is the company had changed substantially from a small family firm to one much more focused on aggressive expansion with increasing amounts of work being given to staff within existing working hours with ever tighter focus on errors made, ie zero tolerance, which is humanly impossible.
I went to my doctor about an existing knee injury, and raised the problems I was having with my health, including the possibility of early-onset Alzheimer's, because I was so worried about my memory affecting my work performance, and after I mislaid my wallet, I had a panic attack in front of my supervisor.
A day or so later I was informed I was being 'let go' because I couldn't meet the performance levels required, and I have to admit that, despite my worries about the future financially, it was a HUGE weight off my shoulders, the sense of relief was enormous.
I found a job within a couple of weeks, thanks to an advert that popped up on here as a result of my google searches, in fact I replied to it late on a Tuesday evening, I got a call early the next morning, had a conference call at 11am, and started at 4.30am on the Thursday!
Bit of a shock, that...
Still doing the same job seven months on, and I'm loving it, ex-workmates say I've never looked happier or as well as I look now, so it's been quite an experience over the last seven, going on eight months, and it's all good.
My very best wishes to the OP, I really hope he can find something new and hopefully different and can move on into a much happier situation.
I've gone from over thirty-odd years involvement in the print industry, through a connected stint in charity response work, and now I'm a car logistics driver for a major auction company, and loving it!

They have ballsed up already, on what has happened you would already win a tribunal.
As has been said, they absolutely can not issue a warning on performance issues without :
Telling you there is a problem when it happens, not months later.
Telling you what is expected, so you can put it right.
Giving you training to put it right.
If it is disciplinary, they need to write to you to invite to a meeting to tell you they are holding an investigation.
Only after the investigation can they decide if it is even a disciplinary matter.
There has to be an impartial investigation and when you are interviewed you need to be invited again to a meeting with another present.
I would also get back on the meds until it's over.
I don't think you need a lawyer, they seem completely inept.

It's all just bloody horrible. If I'm being honest. Going over things I think they said in my appraisal that I needed to improve. For example:

Get a project finished within 3 days which I think I did. Thus meeting that obkective. Then adding bits as requested working with my boss on parts of it. Got it working the finalised the design and got a peer review. Then had to keep asking for my boss to review it.

Another project came along really short turn around. I think I got that done with a couple of minor issues. Then version 2 came along which was completed promptly I seem to recall which my boss and I reviewed I think. With one small error.

So need some clarification on those points from them I think.
Also relating to the first project mentioned in appraisal was told to get it working which I did then used that as the basis onpy to find out now that it's not quite right. Prototype just been made and does work but there is a better way to do it. Basically prototype shouldn't work but does, sort of difficult to explain.

So really just totally confused, exhaisted worried and depressed, just want it all to be sorted and no more agro. Balls.

Cheers for the advice an forum for venting. Think I'll trawl through my log books tomorrow regarding those issues above.

Double post.

See what I mean couldn't remember posting a few mins ago 😉

To be honest companies are in buisnnes to make a profit, new machine/new processes make a profit, thats why they invest old machinery is scrapped when not workable, thats how they probably feel about you, youre not performing the work they pay you for, and theyre piling on the pressure to get you either sacked or you resign, either way youll be gone they hope a they may se you as a liability, and a few days after you leave, the releif and tension will wash away, youll feel better and happier, a new job/occupation etc will arrive and youll sort your head out.

Many years ago i worked for a charity,hated the place from day 2, saw things i didnt like there, stealing, insurance fraud, bullying etc,mentioned it to a member of staf who bottled me to the boss who was her best mate, after a few months got a written warning over made up problems, one that i was anti social, i refused to go to a games evening, and i walked into the town for lunch and exercise instead of sitting in a small building to eat food.

A few weeks later got another one, and a week later a final written warning, felt depressed hated the place,didnt want to go in,everything i did was critisised, everything i said was taken the wrong way,they piled work onto me, stuff that had no relevance,i became withdrawn a few weeks latter snapped told them to keep their job, and walked out.After only 9 months,

Next day went to gp who signed me off sick for a few weeks,mental exhaustion, got home and postman handed me a recorded mail letter saying i was sacked instant dismisal for threatening and abusive behaviour , all made up by them.

I then sent them a recorded delivery letter saying i resigned the previous day.

Best feeling of my life never having to go back there, youll feel the same.

Life is sometimes shit and sometimes its other people who shit on you and dont care, best wishes for the future.

Not a specialist, but do support my someone in a similar position with an ever changing range of managers from the negligent to the micro manager. The slight advantage is they work in the Civil Service, so they have to kind of practice what Government preaches.

Firstly, they seem to have missed a step or two before written warning and the targets are without quantifiable measure.

Secondly, from your posts, they seem to be aware of your condition so should be aware of reasonable adjustments, unfortunately the application of this varies massively between organisations, but if there are triggers, they should be managed and allowances made. For example, the person I know no longer does lone fieldwork and was allowed time away from work to complete a DBT course.

I must admit, the mental health nurse has been very helpful, especially if the knife needs to be put to the manager and twisted. Mind is also a good resource of information that can be trusted. Job Centres should also have a disability specialist, our local one put into clear perspective disability employment law and reasonable adjustments.

Leave. Go somewhere where everyone including your boss slacks off to watch major sporting events and you can jokingly call your boss a ****.

It isn't worth it, been there....got the tshirt.

First up - I'm not a lawyer

But I do have a boss, and I do have staff

I work for a medium sized company - approx 250 employees, though we are part of a larger group.

As a manager I often have to attend various courses on the law as it applies to employees. We have well defined policies and processes for both capabailty (performance) management and disciplinary breaches

In terms of capability it is clear that it's a multi stage process; informal meet to inform and dsicuss
If no improvement - formal meet, formal plan, possible verbal warning
if no improvement - potentially further (written) warning
Etc, etc. It's actually quite hard to dismiss somebody who is co-operative but just 'not quite up to it'

You make no mention of the size of your employer - if small they may not have the same requirement for policies and process. But ultimately they have to follow much the same. If they've made no effort to inform, help and coach they're on rocky ground

Personally, I'd get on the front foot with them and lay it out - they can't just issue a warning out of the blue. Probably it'll scare the sh!tless. Buys you enough time to find a more enlightened employer

Kabih - is your workload and the treatment you're receiving from your management comparable to other staff at a similar level to you? It seems logical to have a clear idea whether it's aimed at you (for whatever reason) or simply the way the company treats its staff.

I am no expert but ive been in similar...

As mentioned before the company is not compliant with employment laws by not conducting a disciplinary meeting properly, for example they have failed in their duty of care to give you the right to representation.

Also, it is against the law for companies not to have a grievance policy in place. I cant link is specifically but its outlined within the ACAS code of practice.

Can you claim a mental disability under the Equality Act? This depends how long you have had the problems you have mentioned though.

Constructive Dismissal springs to mind here but i would seek legal advice first, solicitors will give you some free time to assess if your case is worth their time which i will be of a benefit to you i believe.

I can empathise as i've been in a situation like this before. Its a long story but i decided to just hand my notice in and not deal with the morons who thought they could do what they please at work without even consulting or considering me and my personal circumstances. I probably had a strong case for constructive but i did not want to drag the situation out and i haven't had any communication with them since.

Once agin cheers for the advice.

if I post bits of the letter would that affect my position?

I guess as its addressed to me I can do what I want with it?

Small company 25 people ish.

As mentioned above , if documented and been on meds for over a year, you are covered to claim a disabiity.Sounds harsh but thats excactly what it is.Helped me no end when my union rep pointed it out in a meeting with HR,after some checking of policy Hr's focus changed.

Not sure how long was on meds for might have been just over or just under a year.

A decent lawyer will provide a free consultation and ask you what you want from this? Likely options are:
keeping your job, or seeking a settlement and going elsewhere.
If they were to dismiss you based on what you've said they'd likely lose at a tribunal on constructive dismissal but obviously there's the extra stress of going down this route.
If they have failed to follow the law, then you could be entitled to additional damages, not just the statutory minimum.

When I was in a similar position, a letter from a solicitor suddenly resulted in my case being taken seriously after 9 months.

I dont know much about the legal side, others seem to have hit the nail on the head etc. But forgetting the work aspect, get out and ride, do stuff to get your head into a better place. Its not easy and I have to admit that after being made redundant a few years back I still very much suffer from confidence issues. But riding made my life a little better.

Chin up, think positive, dont let some daft bugger ruin your life. There will be other jobs ( regardless on how this pans out ) and you [u]will[/u] be a useful member of a team / company / world again. You have been and you will be once more.

Now wrap up warm and get out for a pootle !!!

( if all else fails, wee in their shoes. )

I'd suggest a chat with a solicitor too, even if it is just exploring options. I know a good one up in Scotland, happy to discuss in a bit more detail off forum.

Ok. So I think I'm getting into a better place.

Getting my head down and working, is part of it, as is looking at my options.
I think that the company is not right for me. It's now a question of either sitting
there and working whilst looking for alternate employment. Or coming to an agreement.
I'm favouring the sitting tight and finding a new job.

I guess I need to see what happens at the start of next month.

The Equality Act guidance on disability and 'reasonable' adjustments is worth a read

Essentially a disability includes conditions that have 'significant' and 'long term' effects on your ability to carry out 'normal day to day activities', which includes work. There are duties for employers to make 'reasonable' adjustments, however despite the legal duties, quite often the size of the company has an impact on their capacity to act on these duties

I think I'm facing a tough call Monday. Has been bubbling up for a long time but is now intolerable.

Small company, MD is owner and what he says, goes. Over the 3 or so years here we have had several disagreements, which i have handled professionally; eg: expressing reservations about the impact changing a process will have on quality of our product and not undergoing proper change management controls for it, but being overruled only to then have to pick up the pieces when what i said would happen did.

However, last few months have really gone sour, and I now feel i have a case for either workplace bullying or constructive dismissal. Have been removed from various projects, to the point where it has been confided to me by colleagues that they have been actively told not to inform me. Have been uninvited to meetings that would normally be routine in my position. Have had my attendance at the major yearly expo cancelled; sending someone else in my place (found out when was copied on an email for schedules by mistake) - and am constantly belittled and undermined or denigrated in meetings.

I could just hunker down and pick up the salary while finding another job, but it's negatively affecting health hence I think Monday I'll be addressing these points and basically saying that if he's trying to manage me out then let's do it sensibly under a compromise agreement rather than continue the bullying and stress.

Cheers for the link.

Davidr I may very well contact you.

Cheers

Davidr ygm

To answer another post work load seems the same as other colleagues.

Looking back over the letter a couple of things jump out. Thr issues raised were around the start of middle of the month. Warnimg issued start of next month.

I attended a disciplinary hearing on xx date.

This letter which contains the above sentence was given to me in a meeting; which was directly after a project meeting. So would I be correct in thinking that:

Acas guide of best practice so is advisory not legally binding.
As such it advises that pripr to a written warning the employee should be informed so as to prepare.

As it's a guide the above is only considered best practice.

However the fact that it does not state in the letter that I have the right to be accompanied is a bit of a bigger issue.

So things have moved on

Davidr thanks for the message. At the moment I'm teying toget my head around the situation.

So feeling either brave or stupid I asked for a copy lf the grieving discipline policies. Which resulted in the reply that it would be discussed in a meeting. So I thought followed up a day or so later to get the same response, saying when the meeting would be.
I thought it a bit strange nut just let it go. Then got another e mail stating that its not written down as it's never been needed before. That the ac*s code os followed.

So now I can see where things don't tally up I'm not really sure what to do.

I'm getting more annoyed with the whloe issue amd thinking about:

just sitting there and getting on with my work.

Raising a grievance

Going elsewhere

A mixture pf the above.

Hhhhhhmmmmmm

Tough one but a combination of the 3 options you listed may be the best approach. Raise a grievance as they have not followed their own proceedured, crack on with the work whilst putting serious effort into finding another job.

In this sort of situation, if it ain't written down then it's not a procedure, and them saying (in an email) that the reason it wasn't written down was because they've never needed it before - they may as well have written 'we don't have one, so we're making it up as we go along'

The fact they then send a template one is lovely, but don't let them get away with assuming that they've followed parts of it so far; if they want to start a proper process now it's from the start, they can't jump in with final warnings or whatever.

Pragmatic approach; seems clear they don't want you there and you don't want to be there either. Trust me; you're in a poisonous environment that isn't helping with other issues and the sooner you can get out the better. Give them that option with a suitable compromise agreement which resolves their issues with their procedure and enables you to make a fresh start

Acas guide of best practice so is advisory not legally binding.

I think it's an approved code of practice. If your employer doesn't use it then they have to demonstrate that what they are doing is as good as, or better than the advice. This demonstration would be at the tribunal hearing.

Join a union! this is what they are for altho its a bit late now in that unions don't like folk joining after the troubles have started but you will probably get advice of one and representation from a local rep but not access to the services that cost a union

Your employer is acting unreasonably and possibly illegally depending on what they do next.

I would set and wait for them to compound their errors then when the sacking comes as looks inevitable, tell them you will be taking them to tribunal for unfair dismissal, watch them panic ad accept the compromise agreement they will offer - basically "take this money to shut up and go away" I don't know how long you have been there but I would be asking for a years wages and maybe settle for 6 months

Not sure if sacking is on the cards.

I'm beginning to think that compromise may be the best option.

However having a family and mortgage muddy the water somewhat.

I think I may have an informal chat regarding the issues with policies and sit it out until the 2 months is up. Which is approximately 2 weeks away.

Whilst also looking elsewhere.